TurboTwist Hi-Low Spinner Backspin problem. XP 64 Poll rate, Works Now!

[Bender]

I've finally got this installed and I've got everything set up
I've been reading posts for days about the z-axis and mouse polling and the analog settings and I still can't get this thing to not backspin

It's driving me crazy I'm about to rip it out and try to get my apache spinner to fit in a space half its size

I'm using the x axis

I'm running windows XP 64

I can't seem to get the polling rate above 125Hz, can't find a patch for xp 64 to up the polling rate to 500Hz

any ideas anyone

If I switch to the Z axis will I be able to get a finer control?

[RandyT]

Google sent me to a post in another forum where an XP64 user used the following to up the poll rate and reported success.

http://files.filefront.com/hidusbfzip/;8590375;/fileinfo.html

Let me know how that one works for you.

RandyT

[Bender]

Thanks Randy,

Already tried that one
I might not be laoding it correctly, but I haven't been able to get it to work
in the program it says that it up the poll rate to 500Hz but when I test it it is exactally the same 125Hz 

somebody out there has upped the poll rate in xp 64

anyone?


PS: Randy, Great new spinner Knobs!

[RandyT]

Already tried that one
I might not be laoding it correctly, but I haven't been able to get it to work
in the program it says that it up the poll rate to 500Hz but when I test it it is exactally the same 125Hz 

Hmm...folks are saying that it has been tested and works in XP64.  Did you try it from safe mode?

PS: Randy, Great new spinner Knobs!

Thanks

RandyT

[Bender]

Hi Randy,

I did not try that one in safe mode, I'll do that next if I can get my system back. Could you send me a link to what your reading,

Thanks


I tried the directions from another page and hex edited the usbport.sys file (through safe mode other wise it doesn't change the file) and now my USB ports don't work so I have no way of putting the original file back because the mouse and keyboard don't work 

anybody have any idea how to restore that file without the mouse or keyboard

[SavannahLion]

anybody have any idea how to restore that file without the mouse or keyboard

Would a Restore point cover that file? I'm not sure if it would, but it might be worth checking into.

If not, hopefully you kept a backup? If not, my system maintains two different versions and 16 copies scattered across the hard drive. You might need to copy one of them and replace your mucked copy.

But how to get keyboard/mouse functionality back? That's easy. Use a bootable Live OS DVD disc like Knoppix (Linux) or build your own with BartPE/UBCD4Win (Windows). Obviously you'll need a 2nd functioning PC to burn the DVD, but since you're posting here, I don't see much problem with that. Once you've booted from a Live disc, you can go in on the er... "sleeping" OS, repair the mucked up file, reboot without the Live disc and you should be back in business.

The last option would be to try and reinstall over the old OS and hope it doesn't wipe out your data. But I don't trust Windows install discs (never having actually used my Windows XP install disc for.. GASP! an actual install) and where's the fun in that?

[FrizzleFried]

I am having the very same problem with Window XP x64.  I can not change the poll rate and both my TT and my trackball experience overspin issues.  I've bitched about it in the SOFTWARE forum 3 times now and no one has been able to help me.  My friends want to kick ---my bottom--- as World Class Bowling,  Golden Tee and Shuffleshot are beeing massively affected by this issue.

[Bender]

I am having the very same problem with Window XP x64.  I can not change the poll rate and both my TT and my trackball experience overspin issues.  I've bitched about it in the SOFTWARE forum 3 times now and no one has been able to help me.  My friends want to kick ---my bottom--- as World Class Bowling,  Golden Tee and Shuffleshot are beeing massively affected by this issue.

hey FrizzleFried,

what have you tried so far?
did you try the hidusbf in safe mode?

[RandyT]

If you go to the bottom of the page after following this link, you'll see specific mentions of success doing this with XP 64 and the software linked to earlier.  I don't run XP 64, so I'm afraid all I can do is offer up some possible leads.

RandyT

[FrizzleFried]

If you go to the bottom of the page after following this link, you'll see specific mentions of success doing this with XP 64 and the software linked to earlier.  I don't run XP 64, so I'm afraid all I can do is offer up some possible leads.

RandyT

I am going to the bottom of that page and I see no mention of XP64?

[RandyT]

I am going to the bottom of that page and I see no mention of XP64?

This is what I'm referring to:

This driver/program is intended to "overclock" USB mice under Windows 98 through XP x64, Windows Vista 32 bit, Windows Vista 64 bit (with disabled driver signature enforcement).

Program changes only mouse rate, not touching other devices on USB.

[...]

I have personally tested it under Windows 98SE, Windows 2000 SP2/SP4, Windows XP RTM/SP1/SP2, Windows Vista 32 bit RTM, Windows Vista 64 bit RTM. Testing under Windows XP x64 SP1 was performed by Dark_Cloud.

I see very few references to "XP64" out there, so I am assuming that we are talking about "XP x64" which is the 64 bit XP precursor to Vista.

Check out this thread for more info.  I get the feeling that the "Driver Signature Overrider" being discussed there is integral to the solution.

RandyT

[FrizzleFried]

They're talking about Vista x64... Vista x64 is a different beast than Windows XP x64.

[u_rebelscum]

They're talking about Vista x64... Vista x64 is a different beast than Windows XP x64.

Err..

This is what I'm referring to:

... Testing under Windows XP x64 SP1 was performed by Dark_Cloud.

They're talking XP x64, too.

[FrizzleFried]

I was referring to his last link.  That "info" file has been posted and is included in the ZIP.  That said.  It doesn't work.  At least not for me.

[RandyT]

I was referring to his last link.  That "info" file has been posted and is included in the ZIP.  That said.  It doesn't work.  At least not for me.

From the last link:

<< Comment #7 @ 02:12 CDT, 22 April 2008 >>
hidusbf work in vista x64 (since it work in XP x64 - and nothing change) - but ONLY with disabled driver signature enforcement.

I have no idea whether this is relevant, but if XP x64 and Vista x64 are both using this "driver signature enforcement", this might explain why the OS is not allowing the changed file. 

If you haven't explored this already, then it's probably where you need to start looking.

*edit* Also, there is a file link in the info for a patched XP x64 usbport.sys.  Have you tried that one? 

RandyT

[Bender]

with a LOT of help from SavannahLion (Thanks so much)
I've got the system back, phew!


so I'm going to install a bluetooth keyboard and try a few more times tonight
I'll let you all know if I get it to work!

[Bender]

OK some progress

1. do not mess with usbport.sys file! it only leads to disaster I did it 3 times all resulting in me having to pull the harddrive and resetting the file on another machine

2. you do need the hidusbf program (from the link RandyT gave above), but it is a little buggy with XP x64

I finally found some instruction from the author that were translated into English, and a couple little things in there gave me some clues here

you don't need to be in safe mode
What I did was install one device at a time, run the setup.exe in the hidusb folder, select a device, set the filter to ON and the rate to 500Hz (or whatever you want) then click the install service button, then click the restart button, then close the window. The next step here I think is the key for XP x64.
Go into the hidusb folder right click the file HIDUSBF.INF and click install, then unplug and replug in the USB device, then restart. Repeat for each device, one other thing I noticed is that for some reason the filter sometimes goes off. if it is off the the device will go back to 125Hz the next time you restart, I had to play around with it to keep all the filters on, kinda weird

I have got this to work on my regular mouse and the TurboTwist Hi-Low spinner
I haven't been able to get it to work with my U-Track ball that is hooked up through a MiniPac, but I haven't had any backspin issues with the Trackball anyway, but I am still curious why it won't work


A note of caution DO NOT right click and install the HIDUSBU.INF file I did that by mistake and none of the mice worked, I had to go into the device manager and revert the drivers back to an earlier version or uninstall the device and then start the whole process over again

FrizzelFried, what track ball/interface combo are you using?
Did you try lowering the analog setting for the games in Mame?
what are the symptoms in Shuffleshot, ect?

Believe it or not If I don't have Tempest set up just right I still get backspin, but with the analog dial sensitivity set to 6 it is perfect, but if I go just up to 10 backspin is back. That is some crazy hi resolution spinner

I know all this is a Little confusing so if anybody need help let me know, I wouldn't want anybody else to have to go through this, It's been driving me bonkers for days

[FrizzleFried]

My MAME settings aren't causing this.  I know because in Windows I experience backspin...

I'll try following your instructions.  I am at my wits end.  My friends and I ended up playing poker last night because we're getting really tired of this issue.  It's killing our World Class Bowling,  Golden Tee and Shuffleshot sessions.  Absolutely killing them.    The games are just about unplayable.

[Bender]

My MAME settings aren't causing this.  I know because in Windows I experience backspin...

I'll try following your instructions.  I am at my wits end.  My friends and I ended up playing poker last night because we're getting really tired of this issue.  It's killing our World Class Bowling,  Golden Tee and Shuffleshot sessions.  Absolutely killing them.    The games are just about unplayable.

Yeah I have no problems with my trackball in windows or those games, sound like you poll rate is even lower than 125Hz

I hope you can get it to work, I know how UNBELIEVABLY frustrating it is

if you don't mind I'd like to know what trackball and interface your using

Good Luck, let me know if you have any questions

I'd try the mouse first and see if that works
I like this program to test the poll rate in windows

[FrizzleFried]

It's a Happ trackball with USB interface built-in.  It worked perfectly fine under Window XP 32... issues arose as soon as I went to Windows XP x64 otherwise I'd suspect there was an issue with the TB itself.

[RandyT]

It's a Happ trackball with USB interface built-in.  It worked perfectly fine under Window XP 32... issues arose as soon as I went to Windows XP x64 otherwise I'd suspect there was an issue with the TB itself.

It may be a coincidence that the HAPP TB started giving you problems at the same time you decided to switch to a different OS.  Backspin is exactly the issue the HAPP TB's exhibit when the opto-sensors start to give out.  If you have been able to boost the poll rate and still see the problem with only the trackball, then it must be the TB that is the problem.  With the original, very low resolution encoders, it's nearly impossible to get backspin on the trackball without some other processing issue at play.

Bender,

6 is the "arcade perfect" setting for the TurboTwist 2 and Tempest.  For some reason, the Atari titles which use optical controls from that time period are very touchy.  I don't know whether it is spotty emulation, or what the situation is there, but if you check out the trackball action on Centipede, you'll see similar weirdness.  But at 6 on Tempest, you should have a "very close to the original" experience.

RandyT

[Bender]

Bender,

6 is the "arcade perfect" setting for the TurboTwist 2 and Tempest.  For some reason, the Atari titles which use optical controls from that time period are very touchy.  I don't know whether it is spotty emulation, or what the situation is there, but if you check out the trackball action on Centipede, you'll see similar weirdness.  But at 6 on Tempest, you should have a "very close to the original" experience.

RandyT

Agreed! Tempest works fantastic now!

What settings would you suggest for atari trackball games?

[RandyT]

What settings would you suggest for atari trackball games?

That's a tough one because it depends on the controller being used and the title in question.  Honestly, I haven't found one that I really like for Centipede because of the way it feels compared to the original machines.  Also, I don't think the later Atari trackball titles suffer from the same "weirdness."

RandyT

[u_rebelscum]

What settings would you suggest for atari trackball games?

That's a tough one because it depends on the controller being used and the title in question.  Honestly, I haven't found one that I really like for Centipede because of the way it feels compared to the original machines.  Also, I don't think the later Atari trackball titles suffer from the same "weirdness."

Yeah agreed.  I'd guess Centipede polls the TB faster than mame, or multiplexes (related but not same thing).  The arcade moves a lot faster than mame.

[Derrick Renaud]

This whole Vista 64 SP1 locked at 125Hz poll rate blows.     I wonder if you can still set the PS2 rate to 200Hz from the default rate of 120Hz.  XP allowed you to set it in the mouse's properties in Device Manager.

As I have explained in the past, 200Hz is the minimum barely useable rate.  Games like Tempest poll at 240Hz.  I think Centipede also does, but can't remember.  They need to poll quick because the games only use a 4 bit counter for +7/-8 change.  Anything larger in a sample period will roll over (backspin).

I have Vista in Test mode and have also tried F8-allow unsigned driver.  hisusbf.sys shows up in the device manager under Human interface devices for the trackball when filter is selected.  But no matter what rate I select, it just uses 125Hz.

So now Tempest backspins even when set to a MAME sensitivity of 6.  It is mostly playable, unless you free spin it.  I always do this at the end of the first levels.  But now you can't.

 

Looks like I'm going back to XP.  The extra speed of using MAME64 is of no use, if the controls are unresponsive.

500Hz is really needed to smooth out what is being sent to MAME.  Someone will have to dig up the old post where I explained all this.

[Derrick Renaud]

What settings would you suggest for atari trackball games?

That's a tough one because it depends on the controller being used and the title in question.  Honestly, I haven't found one that I really like for Centipede because of the way it feels compared to the original machines.  Also, I don't think the later Atari trackball titles suffer from the same "weirdness."

Yeah agreed.  I'd guess Centipede polls the TB faster than mame, or multiplexes (related but not same thing).  The arcade moves a lot faster than mame.

Can someone link to a video showing how the real Centipede game moves when moving the trackball as fast as you can.  This way the issue can be possibly cleared up.

[RandyT]

This whole Vista 64 SP1 locked at 125Hz poll rate blows.     I wonder if you can still set the PS2 rate to 200Hz from the default rate of 120Hz.  XP allowed you to set it in the mouse's properties in Device Manager.

Anything on this page of any use to you?

RandyT

[Derrick Renaud]

Anything on this page of any use to you?

That is what I used.  The driver is installed and shows in device manager.  Setup allows you to set the poll rate and attach/detach the driver from different mice.  But it just never changes the rate from 125Hz.   

[Derrick Renaud]

Some thoughts...

The best fix is to get Vista to run at at least 500Hz poll rate.  But other ideas to try (code) are:

I think DirectX allowed you to set the device to instant read instead of polling.  But this would be useless for multi-mouse.

So that leaves us with smoothing the input.  One quick way would be to modify the windows input code to read the input at the 125Hz poll rate, which it already does.  But then divide it by 8.  Then only add that 1/8 relative movement.  Next fire a timer for 1ms.  Add another 1/8. then fire timer and add 1/8 six more times.  This would delay the input response for 7ms but it should fix Vista problems.  I'll code this up when I get a chance.

A better long term fix would be to make the MAME input core aware of how fast the OS is updating the input system, then adjust the data based on the current MAME emulated time.  This would then be OS independent.

I suggest a option name of -pollfix (-pf).

This should even help people stop getting backspin when using serial mice with a poll rate of 40Hz.  But would delay the input by 24ms for them.

[AndyWarne]

Some thoughts...

The best fix is to get Vista to run at at least 500Hz poll rate. 

This is easy to do with full-speed USB which does not have any constraints on poll rate in Windows. Also 16 bit data packets.

[Derrick Renaud]

Some thoughts...

The best fix is to get Vista to run at at least 500Hz poll rate. 

This is easy to do with full-speed USB which does not have any constraints on poll rate in Windows. Also 16 bit data packets.

Well, I'm using an Opti-PAC.   

On XP, it was limited to 125Hz until I ran the USB poll rate patcher hack.  Then I could use up to 1000Hz without a problem.

Are you saying you know of a way to get the Opti-PAC do more then 125Hz on Vista 64?

[RandyT]

This difficulty, which is not insurmountable from what I have been reading on the web, appears to be primarily an x64 thing.  Other Vista and XP varieties are much easier to tweak the polling rate with.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

Well, I'm using an Opti-PAC.   

On XP, it was limited to 125Hz until I ran the USB poll rate patcher hack.  Then I could use up to 1000Hz without a problem.

Are you saying you know of a way to get the Opti-PAC do more then 125Hz on Vista 64?

Not on the device side, no, but our trackball and spinner interfaces, and U-HID boards use full-speed USB with a poll rate of 2 Ms with 16 bit packets.

[RandyT]

On XP, it was limited to 125Hz until I ran the USB poll rate patcher hack.  Then I could use up to 1000Hz without a problem.

Are you saying you know of a way to get the Opti-PAC do more then 125Hz on Vista 64?

Not on the device side, no, but our trackball and spinner interfaces, and U-HID boards use full-speed USB with a poll rate of 2 Ms with 16 bit packets.

With the simple patch (most Windows OS'es) and no different hardware, a 1 ms poll interval is possible, which is twice as fast.  Although anything over 300hz is probably overkill anyway, especially for low resolution trackballs.

[Bender]

On XP, it was limited to 125Hz until I ran the USB poll rate patcher hack.  Then I could use up to 1000Hz without a problem.

Are you saying you know of a way to get the Opti-PAC do more then 125Hz on Vista 64?

Not on the device side, no, but our trackball and spinner interfaces, and U-HID boards use full-speed USB with a poll rate of 2 Ms with 16 bit packets.

With the simple patch (most Windows OS'es) and no different hardware, a 1 ms poll interval is possible, which is twice as fast.  Although anything over 300hz is probably overkill anyway, especially for low resolution trackballs.

Hey RandyT,

if it's possible to do it on the hardware side, why not just do it so that the user doesn't have to mess with the patch and it won't matter what OS you have it would be Plug n play?

[RandyT]

if it's possible to do it on the hardware side, why not just do it so that the user doesn't have to mess with the patch and it won't matter what OS you have it would be Plug n play?

Because I don't wish to give up USB 1.1 compatibility for a faux feature when there are widely used software methods for doing the same thing without sacrificing overall system compatibility.  There are a lot more computers out there being used for Arcade style gaming with USB 1.1 ports than with 64-bit OS's (which can still be made to work fine, with a little more effort).

I have been considering some ways to keep the best of all worlds, but they are still in the early stages.

RandyT

[Derrick Renaud]

I was asked to explain this in a PM, but I thought it might help others understand the problem, or at least further confuse the issue. 

There really is no one fit all description of how backspin happens.  Different arcade games implemented counter circuits differently and poll at different rates.  But the just of it is that old games like Centipede and Tempest used 4bit counters.  The game needed to read these quite rapidly so they did not overflow.  Tempest reads at 240Hz IIRC.  So you can see that Windows 125Hz can't keep up, let alone a serial mouse at 40Hz.

Lets say the arcade game read at 250Hz.  With Windows locked at 125Hz we have this scenario.

Assume a spinner is moving at 1 step per 1ms.  The game reads every 4ms.  Windows only gives valid data every 8ms.  This means the game gets data the first read at 4ms as 0, then  at 8ms it reads 8 from the supplied windows data.  The game is really expecting a smooth 4,4 read.

MAME just masks the windows supplied  data to the requested number of bits.  So if the spinner moves at 2 steps per 1ms, the game expects 8,8 reads, but after 8ms windows supplies 16 which masked to 4 bits now sends the game 0.

MAME can not hack the data so that it will not overflow.  Because even a real spinner on a real arcade game can backspin if moved fast enough.  Blocking overflow is not the fix.

Windows needs to supply the data quicker then the game needs it.  At least 2x quicker.  That is why 500Hz works great.  1000Hz is only marginally better.  Most people would not notice.

I have been thinking about it allot after installing Vista64.  I can not stand Vista and how inflexible it is and would not use it except for the 20-30% speed gain of the 64bit MAME.  So unless I can get it working, I'm going back to XP.

I do have a thought how to make MAME's handling of low poll rates better though.  If I keep track of the time since the last Windows supplied mouse data, I can fudge the data to smooth it out.  It would introduce a delay up to 1 sample, but might work out OK.  Rember 1 sample means an 8ms delay at 125Hz.  25ms delay for a 40Hz serial mouse hack that no one should even bother using in the first place.

Say we have the current 8ms poll rate, then Mame request data 4ms into the poll period, normally it receives the full data, and resets the counter to 0.  I think if I only send it 4/8 of the data, then it might smooth things out.  There is a little more fancy footwork to it then that, but that is the basics of the idea I want to try.

It is no substitution for a proper Windows 500Hz rate, but it might be better then nothing.

[Bender]

if it's possible to do it on the hardware side, why not just do it so that the user doesn't have to mess with the patch and it won't matter what OS you have it would be Plug n play?

Because I don't wish to give up USB 1.1 compatibility for a faux feature when there are widely used software methods for doing the same thing without sacrificing overall system compatibility.  There are a lot more computers out there being used for Arcade style gaming with USB 1.1 ports than with 64-bit OS's (which can still be made to work fine, with a little more effort).

I have been considering some ways to keep the best of all worlds, but they are still in the early stages.

RandyT

Fair enough

can't say I personally agree on the priorities, but that is certainly a legit reason

and by the way "a little more effort" was a weeks worth of trial and error, and having to pull my hard drive 3 times to fix stuff, I almost had to reinstall the whole OS but for some great advice from another forum member

[RandyT]

and by the way "a little more effort" was a weeks worth of trial and error, and having to pull my hard drive 3 times to fix stuff, I almost had to reinstall the whole OS but for some great advice from another forum member

Heh, but to be honest about the situation, that was an atypical experience......glad to hear you got everything going, though.

[Derrick Renaud]

and by the way "a little more effort" was a weeks worth of trial and error, and having to pull my hard drive 3 times to fix stuff, I almost had to reinstall the whole OS but for some great advice from another forum member

So you actually have Vista 64 SP1 with all current updates patched to do 500Hz?  And the mouserate program confirms the higher poll rate?

If so how?

[Bender]

and by the way "a little more effort" was a weeks worth of trial and error, and having to pull my hard drive 3 times to fix stuff, I almost had to reinstall the whole OS but for some great advice from another forum member

So you actually have Vista 64 SP1 with all current updates patched to do 500Hz?  And the mouserate program confirms the higher poll rate?

If so how?

No it's XP x64 that I've got working, and yes the mouse rate program (and more importantly gameplay) does confirm the poll rate

and by the way "a little more effort" was a weeks worth of trial and error, and having to pull my hard drive 3 times to fix stuff, I almost had to reinstall the whole OS but for some great advice from another forum member

Heh, but to be honest about the situation, that was an atypical experience......glad to hear you got everything going, though.

Thanks Randy,

my one complaint, in all this, is that nowhere (that I can find) in your literature or website do you mention that you need to patch yor OS to get the Spinner working correctly, and in fact you claim it's plug and play, which IT IS NOT, it's left to the consumer to relise the problem diagnose it and search out a solution. I just think you should supply the info upfront and that would make thing a lot easier for everyone.
Just my two cents

again I have said it over and over again, you make fantastic products and are always there to help out, and I really appriciate that
just put the info out there upfront

[RandyT]

my one complaint, in all this, is that nowhere (that I can find) in your literature or website do you mention that you need to patch yor OS to get the Spinner working correctly, and in fact you claim it's plug and play, which IT IS NOT, it's left to the consumer to relise the problem diagnose it and search out a solution. I just think you should supply the info upfront and that would make thing a lot easier for everyone.

The problem here, again, is the OS, not the hardware.  This is an application specific issue.  MS didn't start locking down the poll rate until XP.  Even so, it does not "break" the spinner function, but if you do not adjust *your* operating system to accommodate your particular needs, the spinner won't do what you might expect it to.  Macs, 98SE, Windows 2000, and Linux don't appear to have the poll rate issue, and out of all of the spinners I have sold (no small number) this has been a support topic all of about 3 times, counting this as the third.  The XP polling issue, and the simple fix, is such common knowledge that it just never turns out to be anything warranting significant focus.  The x64 issue, on the other hand, is a little rougher road and the novelty of the situation is what prompted me to get involved and try to help direct you (and Frizzle, because he said he had posted about it several times in the software section without response) to some places on the web where it looked like people had figured it out.  But folks actually using a 64bit MS operating system are still in the vast, vast minority.

The major issue with "officially" pointing people to third party software is that it is impossible to directly support.  There are just too many possible combinations out there.  And all too often people consider merely the presence of those links a pretense to demand that support, especially if they decide to make the purchase based on it.  As you have seen, I'm happy to help where I can, and really enjoy doing so.  But it's difficult enough to directly support the software and products that *I* create, and quite honestly, the last thing I need is to set myself up for a situation where I am expected to support the work of others.  Especially when that support is plentiful in other places when one only takes the time and effort to look for it.

RandyT

[Bender]

Microsoft certainly didn't write your claim that the TT2 and the TTH/L are "plug and play"
I'n not saying it your fault, just be up front about the limitations under those other OS's (I think most of people on this forum are using XP)

It is simple. Say they are plug and play for Macs, 98SE, and 2000 and Linux

but because of whatever microsoft did you need to up the pollrate to get the spinner functioning correctly, in XP and VISTA  and maybe point them in the direction of the wiki on this site about the subject

As I said earlier, you leave it up to the consumer to find and fix this fault, which is bad business if you ask me. This is actually the second time I had to address this issue and I'm only 1 customer. I had to fix it before with the TT2 on XP 32bit.
I did research here and was able to solve it from reading the wiki and a couple other posts (still took a couple of days and a few hours, granted nothing like wrestling the the 64 bit stuff)

That is not how it should be done, Sorry

[RandyT]

Microsoft certainly didn't write your claim that the TT2 and the TTH/L are "plug and play"

Mike, did the spinner work when you plugged it in, without requiring you to install any drivers, yes or no?  The way you are conducting yourself, you would lead people to believe that the answer is no, when we both know better.  That does not mean that some system configuration might not be necessary for specific installations, any more than "plug and play" means one can simply boot up MAME and play any spinner game to perfection without adjusting the sensitivity settings or enabling mouse input.  You are reading far too much into the words as a matter of convenience to your point.

We offer both the TT2 and the High-Low spinners without any interface at all.  On the same page no less.  Derrick was having the exact same problem you were with his x64 system....and he was using an OptiPac with his TT2.   Should I also list every possible optical interface out there and detail it's interaction with every OS?  He not only was able to get it working the way he wanted, he came up with his own unique approach which he documented for the benefit of others.  One thing I would certainly do if brought to my attention and I was able to verify it, is mention any systems where there is a hard incompatibility.  Meaning that there is no known way to make it work in any usable way.  As yet, there are none which even come close to meeting this description.  People love the spinners, and I have never been asked to accept a single return out of the very large number of units we have shipped.  And that includes a ton of XP users.

And you never emailed me about the poll rate thing in XP.  To be fair, nobody does because it's such a well known MS problem and because a simple solution exists.  But if you had, I certainly would have saved you a lot of time.  I don't know where you spent the "days and hours" on the 32-bit XP poll rate thing, but it literally took me 5 minutes to find, download and install the program on my XP system.  Less effort than installing most mainstream hardware devices which have their, often times outdated, drivers in the box with them.

Your comments make it look like you are looking for someone to take the frustrations of using your new OS out on, and I just happen to be handy.  Which I'm not sure I understand, given that fact that I spent a fair amount of time looking into the situation and posting links to places I thought could help you get squared away....which you apparently used to fix your issue.

[Bender]

Make all the excuses you want your product is not "plug n play" in Vista an XP

Sorry!

I tried to be nice about all this, but

DON'T PISS ON ME CAUSE I HAVE A LEGIT COMPLAINT

[RandyT]

DON'T PISS ON ME CAUSE I HAVE A LEGIT COMPLAINT

You do have a legit complaint.  But it is misdirected.  That's why the software exists to remedy the reasons for your complaint.

*edit*  Link to wiki added to product description to make USB poll rate information easy to find for XP users.

BTW, your argument does not take into account that the interface that ships with the TT2 and High-Low is also PS/2 compatible.  The poll rate for PS/2 can be adjusted to 200hz right from the default control panel in XP and probably Vista as well, which is plenty for this application as a last resort.  It should never be necessary to be forced into this route, considering the wide availability of software solutions out there, but it's a good option just in case.

[Bender]

No, you don't understand

My complaint is with your claim of "Plug and Play"
You don't let customer know upfront that they need to do a little work to get the USB spinners functioning properly in xp and vista
Being  Honest with customer I don't think is a lot to ask

I don't mind fixing it, that IS NOT my complaint (and I said I do appreciate your help getting it fixed)
and you know what if you helped up front by letting the customer know about the issue, I bet you could of got it working in XP and vista 32bit in 5 min.

I know I sound like a broken record but you keep missing the point

[RandyT]

I know I sound like a broken record but you keep missing the point

Suffice it to say that I am not the only one that is doing so.  The spinner is 100% properly designed according to USB specifications, usable and fully functional when plugged into the PC.  If you never play a game where rapid movement, or free spin the device hard, then you won't even see the issue that is with your OS, not the spinner (driving games with the steering wheels, as one of many instances.)  And if you decide, based on your needs, that your OS needs to be fixed, there are ways to achieve this, the vast majority of them simple.  Or you can simply use the built-in PS/2 capability of the device and increase the polling rate directly from the control panel.

To underscore this, I just saw that you had to tell someone in another thread how to make the spinner backspin.  He hadn't even noticed that his OS was imposing this software correctable limitation on him.

Some don't even use them for gaming.  We sell loads of them to museums, discovery centers, and kiosk builders.  They don't have your requirements and will never need to do a single thing to their systems but "plug and play". 

The thing that confounds me is that you are sitting there with two perfectly functioning spinners, doing exactly what you want them to be able to do, one of which has absolutely no equal in functionality anywhere in the word and is designed and produced at great personal expense for literally a handful of the most hardcore arcade enthusiasts, and you find it necessary to quibble incessantly about one accurate point in the item's description.  Makes it all worthwhile...

[Bender]

NO, he asked what backspin was, so I gave him some information
Hell, I certainly didn't know what it was till I got my first TT2

I'm not quibbling, your quibbling, I just had one very simple very legitimate concern,

and now you do have me very curious.

Why so resistant to giving the customer some info upfront?

Your blaming me, your blaming Microsoft, your blaming other customers lack of understanding, and I'm not even saying the issue is your fault, just that you should, as a honest business person, let the customers be aware of the issue UPFRONT


as far as the TTH/L your right it is the only Hi res up down spinner (I still like my Apache better, but that I know is definitely personal taste)
the only reason I'm using the TTH/L is the small footprint on a specialty project I'm working on that has very limited space, and I'm gratefull it is available
 


I didn't want to bring you competitors into this, but since you still can't address the question I've stated three separate time now and keep bringing other stuff up...

The TT2 does has an equal (that is actually plug and play on all usb systems)
The Ultimarc SpinTrak has the same resolution and it doesn't need an OS Patch for XP and Vista, I know, I have one

[Bender]

and just so you know I've just had two other members PM me and asking ME how to get  YOUR products functioning properly

I'm certainly am glad to help out

but again it would be nice if you had some info out there upfront for people

[RandyT]

Why so resistant to giving the customer some info upfront?

Because it confuses the issue.  People incorrectly think they might have an issue, when it's likely they won't, or that the issue is far larger than it is in reality.  Much the way you are making it out to be at the moment.

I Didn't want to bring you competitors into this, but since you still can't address the question I've stated three separate time now and keep bringing other stuff up...

But the TT2 does has an equal (that is actually plug and play on all usb systems)
The Ultimarc SpinTrak Has the same resolution and it doesn't need an OS Patch for XP and Vista, I know, I have one

I wonder where that design originated.  Regardless, since you brought it up, I would like to point out that the mini-pac, with the very same limitations, is advertised to work with that spinner directly in the description, yet not a single word regarding poll rates is mentioned in all of that information, or possible issues with certain OS's.  It's obvious that you have decided to single out GGG, due to fanboyism, or some other reason I can't put my finger on.  It's unwarranted, considering that I went well out of my way to help you, and it saddens me that exchanges like this are necessary in public forums in order to keep the record accurate.

and just so you know I've just had two other members PM me and asking ME how to get  YOUR products functioning properly

I'm certainly am glad to help out

but again it would be nice if you had some info out there upfront for people

Maybe they should PM me instead?  And I already said that the link was added to the site, which is more than is on my competitors at the moment.

[Bender]

what link, I missed that, could you point me to where that is?

I found the Link
Hats off to you for the link!
Thanks, I think that is great!!!!


PS: I do like Ultimarc's products, but I like yours just as well, He has some things I use and you have some things I use, your both just about equally represented in my current project. ANYBODY that reads this forum knows I recommend, and have good thing to say about your products

[RandyT]

what link, I missed that, could you point me to where that is?

Go to the site and look.  Refresh your browser if you need to.  I stated that I had, several posts prior.

just to be clear we were discussing spinners that come with an interface, weren't we?

I never said anything about outside interfaces, and don't have a problem with that. I wouldn't expect it to be plug and play and I don't think you claim that in the section where you sell the spinner without an interface

And this is the root of the issue.  You are having knee-jerk reactions to things without accurately assessing the situation.  The spinner is sold with no interface as an option on the very same page.  To go over countless combinations unnecessarily complicates things for the potential user.  It's far better to guide users based on their specific situation, if it's necessary.  99% of the time, it is not.  You are the only individual to have found this method objectionable, and you didn't even email me for support on the situation before stomping your feet in the forums, where I found you and assisted anyway.  And now you call me a "jerk".

ANYBODY that reads this forum knows I recommend, and have good thing to say about your products, the problem is RandyT NOT GGG, other vendors just don't seem to get into tiffs with there customers

Ten thousand GGG customers.....customers I end up in "tiffs" with counted on one hand.  I only do this when I feel GGG is being unfairly maligned and singled out, such is the case here.  I will state this again so you understand; the Opti-Pac and Mini-Pac, with the exact same limitations, are shown being supported by that hi-resolution spinner on the same page with no mention of possible polling issues with some operating systems, or ways to correct them.  Don't you think that an owner of one of those devices will have to do the same thing you did when they try to use it?  Don't you think someone should have told them as well?  In reality, both companies provide exceptional after the sale support, which means that a user is never left standing in the cold where help can be afforded, as in this situation.  This is the best way, given the myriad combinations of hardware and software, to get people up and running.  Yes, it requires extra effort on my part to do things this way, but it has been proven to be the most effective, and results in happy customers who come back time and time again.  It works for us, sorry it doesn't work for you.

RandyT

[FrizzleFried]

From an outside looking in perspective...


...i see nothing wrong with letting folks know that if they're using a 64bit OS they may have to patch their OS if they encounter backspin issues.  Frankly,  it should be mentioned on any site selling any spinner product that produces such backspin... full disclosure is always the best plan of action.

PS: I love my 3 Turbo Twists....

[RandyT]

...i see nothing wrong with letting folks know that if they're using a 64bit OS they may have to patch their OS if they encounter backspin issues.  Frankly,  it should be mentioned on any site selling any spinner product that produces such backspin... full disclosure is always the best plan of action.

PS: I love my 3 Turbo Twists....

Thanks, Frizz.  I appreciate the generalized sentiment, as it applies to all vendors of these high resolution devices.  It would be nice if someone could include a write up in the wiki pertaining specifically to these 64-bit OS's, as they tend to be more challenging thanks to MS locking the systems down as they have.  Maybe Derrick's write-up should be added....any volunteers?

[FrizzleFried]

...i see nothing wrong with letting folks know that if they're using a 64bit OS they may have to patch their OS if they encounter backspin issues.  Frankly,  it should be mentioned on any site selling any spinner product that produces such backspin... full disclosure is always the best plan of action.

PS: I love my 3 Turbo Twists....

Thanks, Frizz.  I appreciate the generalized sentiment, as it applies to all vendors of these high resolution devices.  It would be nice if someone could include a write up in the wiki pertaining specifically to these 64-bit OS's, as they tend to be more challenging thanks to MS locking the systems down as they have.  Maybe Derrick's write-up should be added....any volunteers?

BTW: I think the issue is more with Vista 64-bit than XP.  I am able to modify XP's poll rate with the utility linked in one of these posts.  It took me while to find one that worked,  but I did...and I didn't have to "unlock" anything.

[RandyT]

BTW: I think the issue is more with Vista 64-bit than XP.  I am able to modify XP's poll rate with the utility linked in one of these posts.  It took me while to find one that worked,  but I did...and I didn't have to "unlock" anything.

Good info to know.  That's my cue to avoid Vista when considering a 64-bit OS.

[FrizzleFried]

I decided on XP x64 over Vista for the sole reason that I am not interested in daddy (ie: MS) constantly connecting/connected to my box.

[RandyT]

I decided on XP x64 over Vista for the sole reason that I am not interested in daddy (ie: MS) constantly connecting/connected to my box.

Reasons 2 through 10 to avoid Vista

BTW, is that on all Vista versions, or only x64?

*edit*

Thank you to whoever added Derrick's Vista x64 write up to the Mouse Polling Wiki Page.  You guys work quick!

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

  I will state this again so you understand; the Opti-Pac and Mini-Pac, with the exact same limitations, are shown being supported by that hi-resolution spinner on the same page with no mention of possible polling issues with some operating systems, or ways to correct them. 

Thats because when we launched our high-res spinner we revised both these products so that backspin does not happen. Yes they have the poll-rate limitation but they do not backspin. Raising the poll rate is not the only way to prevent backspin.

Andy

[Derrick Renaud]

It would be nice if someone could include a write up in the wiki pertaining specifically to these 64-bit OS's, as they tend to be more challenging thanks to MS locking the systems down as they have.  Maybe Derrick's write-up should be added....any volunteers?

Ummm.... I already did 15 minutes before you posted this.  

I will probably change a bit more of the info on that page.  It seems that MAME no longer behaves like what is written on the page.  Aaron has completely changed things since my last trip fixing input bugs.  I am currently trying to figure out how it works all over again.  I've been using v0115 until very recently.

[RandyT]

  I will state this again so you understand; the Opti-Pac and Mini-Pac, with the exact same limitations, are shown being supported by that hi-resolution spinner on the same page with no mention of possible polling issues with some operating systems, or ways to correct them. 

Thats because when we launched our high-res spinner we revised both these products so that backspin does not happen. Yes they have the poll-rate limitation but they do not backspin. Raising the poll rate is not the only way to prevent backspin.

And the difference in firmware is not stated, so the net result in the context of the previous discussion is still the same for, I'm assuming, thousands of existing users.

I opted against capping the output a while back, but I may revisit this in light of the Vista x64 situation.  It still isn't as good a solution as simply fixing the OS so it does what it should.  If someone moves the spinner rapidly in a game like Avalanche, and the capping kicks in, when they turn the knob back to where they started from, the position will have changed.  I think it's better for the user to see that the OS is limiting proper operation and fix it, than to have them think the accuracy of the spinner is flawed.

Ummm.... I already did 15 minutes before you posted this.   

I will probably change a bit more of the info on that page.  It seems that MAME no longer behaves like what is written on the page.  Aaron has completely changed things since my last trip fixing input bugs.  I am currently trying to figure out how it works all over again.  I've been using v0115 until very recently.

Heh.  It's like you can see into the future.   Thanks for all of your efforts on these things.....

[Bender]

what link, I missed that, could you point me to where that is?

Go to the site and look.  Refresh your browser if you need to.  I stated that I had, several posts prior.

just to be clear we were discussing spinners that come with an interface, weren't we?

I never said anything about outside interfaces, and don't have a problem with that. I wouldn't expect it to be plug and play and I don't think you claim that in the section where you sell the spinner without an interface

And this is the root of the issue.  You are having knee-jerk reactions to things without accurately assessing the situation.  The spinner is sold with no interface as an option on the very same page.  To go over countless combinations unnecessarily complicates things for the potential user.  It's far better to guide users based on their specific situation, if it's necessary.  99% of the time, it is not.  You are the only individual to have found this method objectionable, and you didn't even email me for support on the situation before stomping your feet in the forums, where I found you and assisted anyway.  And now you call me a "jerk".

ANYBODY that reads this forum knows I recommend, and have good thing to say about your products, the problem is RandyT NOT GGG, other vendors just don't seem to get into tiffs with there customers

Ten thousand GGG customers.....customers I end up in "tiffs" with counted on one hand.  I only do this when I feel GGG is being unfairly maligned and singled out, such is the case here.  I will state this again so you understand; the Opti-Pac and Mini-Pac, with the exact same limitations, are shown being supported by that hi-resolution spinner on the same page with no mention of possible polling issues with some operating systems, or ways to correct them.  Don't you think that an owner of one of those devices will have to do the same thing you did when they try to use it?  Don't you think someone should have told them as well?  In reality, both companies provide exceptional after the sale support, which means that a user is never left standing in the cold where help can be afforded, as in this situation.  This is the best way, given the myriad combinations of hardware and software, to get people up and running.  Yes, it requires extra effort on my part to do things this way, but it has been proven to be the most effective, and results in happy customers who come back time and time again.  It works for us, sorry it doesn't work for you.

RandyT

RandyT

I wrote some of that when I was pretty T-ed off and hit the "post" instead of the "preview" button, That was never meant to go out into the world, I edited it immediately but the edit was posted while you were typing your response ( you can see my edit was posted 15 min. before your response)

My sincerest apologies for calling you a jerk
that is not what this forum is about and I'm very embarrass by it
and hope you will except my apologies,

Humbly Bender

[Derrick Renaud]

It seems that we all have been partially right and partially wrong on this whole backspin problem.  There are so many different issues involved, it seems we have all learnt something.  I for one have learnt that the MAME input system is no longer anything like it was when I worked on it.  A lot of my work is still there but the names/interfaces and overall operation has changed greatly.  A lot of my assumptions no longer apply to the new code.

So it's time to relax and watch Chuck/Heroes. Pretty much the only network TV I watch other then the Simpsons and T:TSCC.  Well I have to use the PVR on T:TSCC because it's now on Fridays.  But I'm way off topic.

 

[Hoopz]

So it's time to relax and watch Chuck/Heroes. Pretty much the only network TV I watch other then the Simpsons and T:TSCC.  Well I have to use the PVR on T:TSCC because it's now on Fridays.  But I'm way off topic.
 

Feel free to visit Everything Else and share your thoughts on Sarah Connor Chronicles.  Everyone else has!   

[Bender]

put the keyboard down and back away form the computer

Time for a Beer!

[SavannahLion]

Not to intercede here.

I opted against capping the output a while back, but I may revisit this in light of the Vista x64 situation.  It still isn't as good a solution as simply fixing the OS so it does what it should.  If someone moves the spinner rapidly in a game like Avalanche, and the capping kicks in, when they turn the knob back to where they started from, the position will have changed.  I think it's better for the user to see that the OS is limiting proper operation and fix it, than to have them think the accuracy of the spinner is flawed.

Some sort of opt-out option? Maybe a cuttable bit of wire on the board to disable the cap. A decent hacker can wire their own switch in if they want. Or... some sort of software command to enable/disable the the cap for certain games, situations, whatever?

Just a thought. 

I don't care much for Microsoft Windows or some of their um... policies. I feel Microsoft has long forgotten the meaning behind their name.

[RandyT]

Some sort of opt-out option? Maybe a cuttable bit of wire on the board to disable the cap. A decent hacker can wire their own switch in if they want. Or... some sort of software command to enable/disable the the cap for certain games, situations, whatever?

Not a bad idea.  I'll consider something like that if I decide to go that route. It would only need to be all or nothing, though, as there would be no good reason to enable it, unless the OS was impossible to fix.  So far, there isn't an OS that meets that description.

My sincerest apologies for calling you a jerk

Don't sweat it.  Lisa apparently thinks that's my name, so I'm used to it.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

And the difference in firmware is not stated, so the net result in the context of the previous discussion is still the same for, I'm assuming, thousands of existing users.

No, because the previous low-res spinners did not exhibit this problem. If anyone were to have come across this issue by using a later high-res spinner on an old board we would have addressed this as a support issue (although I cant recall ever needing to). BTW the Mini-PAC had backspin designed out from the start.

[AndyWarne]

Some sort of opt-out option? Maybe a cuttable bit of wire on the board to disable the cap. A decent hacker can wire their own switch in if they want. Or... some sort of software command to enable/disable the the cap for certain games, situations, whatever?

There would be no need to disable any protection against the counter overflowing and wrapping round. There is no downside in having this logic present all the time. If the user patches Windows to increase the poll rate, the counter will not overflow and the limit not be reached anyway because the counter is zeroed more often.
Better to use a device with a faster poll rate and/or 16 bit packets though then the question does not arise.
Think of it like this: Imagine a water tank. A tap runs into it (the spinner rotation) and someone is bucketing water out of it (the poll rate).
If the amount bucketed out is less than the amount running in, it will overflow. So you want to fit an overflow pipe in case this happens.
If you increase the rate of bucketing out (poll rate), the overflow will not happen, or if you increase the size of the bucket (the packet size) the overflow will not happen. But in these cases there would be nothing gained by capping off the overflow pipe.

[SavannahLion]

Hard to "genericize" a remark, so forgive me. I'm not targeting one or the other.

I understand the concept, it was merely a suggestion in order to gain greater control (or variety) over hardware/software solutions/combinations while keeping hardware costs as low as possible.

Randy and Andy both have slightly different schools of thought on how to approach certain problems. I don't claim to know how either spinner works. At this point, I have no spinner. Thereby, I really have no right to judge the er... merits of any spinner. But it seems to me, based on the numerous discussions and postings, that the different spinners have slightly different approaches. I guess my point is, whatever suggestion one make might be applicable to one, both or even none.

Different strokes, different folks. 

[Derrick Renaud]

If the interface caps overflow, I think it should be mentioned is the specs.  Capping limits the maximum spin.  The one (and only) benefit of OS poll rate backspin is to notify the user that they need to up their OS poll rate. I suppose you could add a solder jumper tab to select the use of this feature.  I do understand that there is no down side to capping if your OS poll rate is high enough, but with it capped, you have no easy way to know if you are being capped without the backspin.

Andy,
  at the time I had received my Opti-Pac, I had questioned you about the poll rate and 16-bit issue.  You told me that the device should be unlocked, but it turned out XP was locking it to 125Hz.  That is how I searched out the USB poll rate patcher.  I then asked about going to 16-bit to solve the problem and you had stated compatibility concerns on doing so in USB 1.1.

Is there any problems using 16-bit data with USB 1.1.  Do all versions of Windows from 95 & up support this? Do your new interfaces support 16-bit in USB 1.1 mode.

Thanks,
D.

[TPB]

I guess if we're talking about spinner product descriptions that fully disclose all compatibility issues,
 
Notwithstanding Bender's love of his Apache, and his disinterest in playing Arkanoid or DOH,   

The inability of a low-res spinner (such as the Tornado or Apache) to accurately play Arkanoid or DOH on ANY Operation System, for which no patch is available (as it's a hardware limitation with the spinner itself), is something that should be disclosed.

As Bender and Frizz say, ideally all issues should be disclosed, but on the scale of things, the issues with low-res spinners (which aren't disclosed by their vendors) are far greater.

Look at the Happ website - they state "The Tornado spinner is best arcade spinning device in the market today".   

http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/gameparts/95265700.htm


I can see Randy's point about confusing potential customers with too much detail on problems that will only occur for a small percentage of users (those using an uncommon 64 bit OS, WHILST ALSO vigorously spinning in games like Tempest).  And in any case, a patch is available to solve the problem, which Randy would point out to anyone who emailed him with a support request.

Unnecessarily confusing potential customers with a "mountain of compatibility information" about a non-issue, will dissuade some of them from purchasing, which equals lost sales for the vendor, which affects their livelihood.

And anyone who is unnecessarily dissuaded from buying, may end up WORSE OFF, if they then go and buy an inferior low-res spinner when they read outlandish claims such as those from the Happ product description above.


P.S.  There's so many spinner threads on-the-go at the moment (no less than 3), touching on this same issue, it's hard to judge in which one to post.   

[AndyWarne]

Andy,
  at the time I had received my Opti-Pac, I had questioned you about the poll rate and 16-bit issue.  You told me that the device should be unlocked, but it turned out XP was locking it to 125Hz.

Yes indeed. That was many years ago when I was still green and naive. I learned on my grandmothers knee that a USB device has its poll rate set in the device descriptor. Little did I know that Microsoft had decided to ignore this on low speed USB devices!

Is there any problems using 16-bit data with USB 1.1.  Do all versions of Windows from 95 & up support this? Do your new interfaces support 16-bit in USB 1.1 mode.

Thanks,
D.

Yes the new interfaces support 16 bit in USB 1.1
I must admit I have not tested this in Windows 98 or 95. I suppose I should state that the new devices are qualified as compatible with XP upwards.

Andy

[Derrick Renaud]

Is there any problems using 16-bit data with USB 1.1.  Do all versions of Windows from 95 & up support this? Do your new interfaces support 16-bit in USB 1.1 mode.

Yes the new interfaces support 16 bit in USB 1.1
I must admit I have not tested this in Windows 98 or 95. I suppose I should state that the new devices are qualified as compatible with XP upwards.

Andy

I'm not to concerned about 95 or 98 myself.  I know others use it.  I was just trying to remember if that was what the concern was with 16 bit data.

It's great that 16-bit is working fine in your new products.  Definitely should solve any overflow problems with a locked 125Hz system.

[2600]

Yes indeed. That was many years ago when I was still green and naive. I learned on my grandmothers knee that a USB device has its poll rate set in the device descriptor. Little did I know that Microsoft had decided to ignore this on low speed USB devices!

Microsoft didn't ignore it per se.  Low Speed devices are only guaranteed speeds up to 10ms per the spec.  The OS has the option to poll faster though.  It was just easier for them to poll all low speed devices at 8ms? instead of having to wast resources constantly figuring out the Current Bus Bandwidth Allocation.

Another positive thing about Full speed speed devices is it allows a lot more options and flexibility, like composite devices so that you don't run into the Mouse Z axis limitation in Windows, and the devices run a lot faster.

[RandyT]

Microsoft didn't ignore it per se.  Low Speed devices are only guaranteed speeds up to 10ms per the spec.  The OS has the option to poll faster though.  It was just easier for them to poll all low speed devices at 8ms? instead of having to wast resources constantly figuring out the Current Bus Bandwidth Allocation.

This would make sense, to a point.  However, seeing that the system is obviously capable of the higher speeds, it is, IMHO, a bonehead decision to not offer users the option of setting that speed to whatever they wish through a simple registry entry modification.  Still no need to constantly monitor or shift gears, so if that was their primary concern, this approach would have been infinitely better.

RandyT

[Todd H]

I've been following this thread with great interest. I just ordered a TT2 from Randy mainly for playing Tempest but also the Arkanoid games. So will Arkanoid be playable with the TT2 if I patch windows to up the poll rate? Or will it just not be accurate enough?

As for Centipede, I remember playing it years ago using a desktop trackball and was not impressed. It didn't feel anything like I remembered back in the 80's, even after adjusting the settings in MAME. No matter how fast I spun the trackball, it seemed to always move at the same speed. I remember sending in a bug report way back when(must have been a good 9 years ago). Sounds like the problem may still persist.

[RandyT]

I've been following this thread with great interest. I just ordered a TT2 from Randy mainly for playing Tempest but also the Arkanoid games. So will Arkanoid be playable with the TT2 if I patch windows to up the poll rate? Or will it just not be accurate enough?

I don't mean to use you as an example, Todd, but your question illustrates perfectly why I don't like to confuse the issue with too much of this type of data.  Absolutely will your new TurboTwist 2 spinner be as accurate as any other high resolution spinner on the market after the simple poll rate patch, if you are using an OS which even requires one.

Also, we keep calling this a patch, but it appears that one of the better solutions out there now is actually a new generic driver which allows for poll rate settings.  Regardless, you will be enjoying your favorites as accurately as the game will allow.

As for Centipede, I remember playing it years ago using a desktop trackball and was not impressed. It didn't feel anything like I remembered back in the 80's, even after adjusting the settings in MAME. No matter how fast I spun the trackball, it seemed to always move at the same speed. I remember sending in a bug report way back when(must have been a good 9 years ago). Sounds like the problem may still persist.

Your memory is on the money.  This behavior is probably at the top of the list for me for disappointments with MAME.  I don't complain too much because someone might tell me to fix it if I don't like it .  But whenever I can get Derrick's ear, I seem to bring it up.  Maybe someday it will get figured out, but at the moment, it seems to be one of those enigmas.

RandyT

[Todd H]

I've been following this thread with great interest. I just ordered a TT2 from Randy mainly for playing Tempest but also the Arkanoid games. So will Arkanoid be playable with the TT2 if I patch windows to up the poll rate? Or will it just not be accurate enough?

I don't mean to use you as an example, Todd, but your question illustrates perfectly why I don't like to confuse the issue with too much of this type of data.  Absolutely will your new TurboTwist 2 spinner be as accurate as any other high resolution spinner on the market after the simple poll rate patch, if you are using an OS which even requires one.

Also, we keep calling this a patch, but it appears that one of the better solutions out there now is actually a new generic driver which allows for poll rate settings.  Regardless, you will be enjoying your favorites as accurately as the game will allow.

As for Centipede, I remember playing it years ago using a desktop trackball and was not impressed. It didn't feel anything like I remembered back in the 80's, even after adjusting the settings in MAME. No matter how fast I spun the trackball, it seemed to always move at the same speed. I remember sending in a bug report way back when(must have been a good 9 years ago). Sounds like the problem may still persist.

Your memory is on the money.  This behavior is probably at the top of the list for me for disappointments with MAME.  I don't complain too much because someone might tell me to fix it if I don't like it .  But whenever I can get Derrick's ear, I seem to bring it up.  Maybe someday it will get figured out, but at the moment, it seems to be one of those enigmas.

RandyT

Good to know about Arkanoid. It's one of my favorites.

So it's not just me then when it comes to Centipede. Maybe Our friend Derrick can do some investigating and figure out how to improve MAME's Centipede performance. 

[2600]

This would make sense, to a point.  However, seeing that the system is obviously capable of the higher speeds, it is, IMHO, a bonehead decision to not offer users the option of setting that speed to whatever they wish through a simple registry entry modification.  Still no need to constantly monitor or shift gears, so if that was their primary concern, this approach would have been infinitely better.

RandyT

I'm not sure that first statement is totally accurate.  Can it be capable, yes.  Always, no.  The low speed spec was specifically designed to help allow super cheap products without a critical need in speed.  For example, the cable does not have to be as robust as the default cable you provide.  When you start attaching or daisy chaining a lot of devices shielding starts playing a much bigger role.  Also, when the spec was written motherboards had one or two host controllers unlike today where one EHCI controller which has multiple USB 1.1 controllers built in.  When you start loading the bus down, you don't want the priority going to a mouse or keyboard.

The fact is if a device needs a faster poll rate the designer is suppose to choose full speed over low speed.  With full speed the designer has the option of polling as fast as 1ms, but can be polled slower if the designer chooses.  For HID devices, the device does not need to respond immediately to a poll if the designer chose a faster speed then needed.


Granted, I do like the ability to modify things through the registry, but you have to use what's given to you.

[RandyT]

I'm not sure that first statement is totally accurate.  Can it be capable, yes.  Always, no.  The low speed spec was specifically designed to help allow super cheap products without a critical need in speed.  For example, the cable does not have to be as robust as the default cable you provide.  When you start attaching or daisy chaining a lot of devices shielding starts playing a much bigger role.  Also, when the spec was written motherboards had one or two host controllers unlike today where one EHCI controller which has multiple USB 1.1 controllers built in.  When you start loading the bus down, you don't want the priority going to a mouse or keyboard.

This is kind of getting into another discussion, but I've yet to see a situation where the system was not capable of higher poll rates than the newer MS operating systems default to.  If you have, I'd appreciate an example to investigate.  We are also talking primarily about the capabilities of the host, not the device.  It is true that there are "super-cheap" mouse devices out there that are incapable of operating properly when the poll rates are hiked.  The processor used in the GGG optical devices, however, is not one of these devices.  It is, in fact, using the same 12 million cycle per second core as our other encoder products, which is more than capable of sustaining higher poll rates.  The difficulty doesn't come from the host, as the bus is the bus.  If it can go "Full-Speed", then it can operate properly at higher poll rates at "Low-Speed".  Also, we aren't talking about bulk transfers, rather very small amounts of data at a higher frequency.  "Full-Speed" devices are usually things like card readers and mass storage devices (at least under 1.1) where large amounts of data need to be transmitted as fast as possible.

Again, the intent of the "Low-Speed" specification was to benefit the device, not the host.  The host is simply more flexible as a result. 

RandyT

[2600]

Yeah, sorry for the sidetrack on thread discussion.

One thing, I wasn't trying to imply that the GGG is a super cheap device in fact I was saying the opposite.  What I was more trying to imply is that you can't hold all low speed devices to your GGG standard.  If you increase the low speed poll rate in the OS for one device, you are increasing it for all devices.

I'm not quite sure I understand the rest of your argument.  If you want low speed devices with full speed device characteristics, why not make it a full speed device.  Why would the creators of the spec who are probably much more knowledgeable about it then us, although I do loathe USB, create 2 different speeds if they weren't trying to imply a difference?

I don't have a specific example about poll rates, but I imagine if you start increasing the bus length and increasing the number of devices as well as traffic on the bus you will start seeing that situation.  It may not be blatantly apparent, but if you put an analyzer on the bus you may start seeing errors or devices that would not enumerate correctly.

[RandyT]

Yeah, sorry for the sidetrack on thread discussion.

One thing, I wasn't trying to imply that the GGG is a super cheap device in fact I was saying the opposite.  What I was more trying to imply is that you can't hold all low speed devices to your GGG standard.  If you increase the low speed poll rate in the OS for one device, you are increasing it for all devices.

Apparently, this is not the case for one of the better solutions out there.  You can actually assign the device you want to increase the poll rate with so it only affects that particular device...at least if what I have been hearing is true.

I'm not quite sure I understand the rest of your argument.  If you want low speed devices with full speed device characteristics, why not make it a full speed device.  Why would the creators of the spec who are probably much more knowledgeable about it then us, although I do loathe USB, create 2 different speeds if they weren't trying to imply a difference?

Well, it isn't really a "Full-Speed" characteristic.  The spec allows for whatever poll rate one wants to request, but only requires the host to honor 10ms.  One should view that as a minimum for compliance, which MS did seeing as they upped it to 8ms, but not as a definition for what constitutes the capability of a "Low-Speed" device.   As for the difference, it's as was stated before.  It's merely an accommodation of less capable devices, that for the most part is a subset of the full capabilities of the host.  So one cannot technically state that MS is not complying with the spec, because they are.  But one can state that they are of the opinion that not allowing the user (or the devices) the ability to do better is a "bonehead decision", as doing so does not in any way violate the specifications for a USB "Low-Speed" device.

And finally, in the practical world of USB, it seems that the host implementation reigns supreme, not the specification.  I have a great little, inexpensive 16-input USB device here capable of kicking out standard keyboard data very quickly, and it works fantastically for gaming under 98SE, XP and Vista.  But under Win2K, it can't seem to get out of it's own way.  It works fine under Win2K for an application like a kiosk or museum display (or a keyboard), but just doesn't have the throughput under Win2K for what folks here would use it for.  So my point is, referring to the spec doesn't always give you a solid indicator of what to expect from the performance of any particular device when coupled with any particular host.  What has been exhibited, over and over again, is that the hosts in the context of this discussion, set to higher polling of "Low-Speed" mouse devices, work just fine.

On the subject of host performance, one has to keep in mind that the host does not need to poll at 500hz reliably for this application.  It is overkill, as half that would likely be sufficient.  So the host can vary it's poll rate wildly without the user ever seeing an issue, so long as it is able to sustain a rate higher than that which would cause an overflow condition.  In other words, we don't care if there isn't a "dead nuts 500hz reliability"  because it just doesn't matter here.

RandyT

[TPB]

Good to know about Arkanoid. It's one of my favorites.

Rest easy.

The TT2 was MADE for Arkanoid (and its sequel DOH).

It remains the only hi-res spinner with steering wheel options, and a high-low version.

Of course, there is now another hi-res compact spinner in the market, which is giving the TT2 some stiff competition.  It was developed with the assistance of a design sharing and collaboration agreement, the fruits of which shall soon see another product come to market, a revolutionary new joystick called the G360 GroovyStik.   

[Todd H]

Just tested the TT2 with Arkanoid. Perfection. And Tempest at a setting of 6 feels exactly as I remembered. Great product Randy!  

[robertsig]

OK, I have to reply to this because I'm having the same problem.

I have a TT2 master and slave (X & Y axis on mouse).  My MAME machine is running XP 32-bit SP3.  I have the USB interface.  I set Tempest's analog down to 6, as well as trying a bunch of other settings.

Standard polling rate of 125 on usbport.sys.  I also upped to to 250 and 500 for testing.

In all three cases, I still get backspin, or at least that is what I think it is called.  The "claw" jitters back and forth instead of spinning if I move the spinner fast.  What do I do next?  Out of the hundreds of games I have, Tempest was my #1 reason for building this thing.

[MonMotha]

The USB spec restricts low speed (1.5Mbps) devices to 100Hz polling rate.  They are not permitted, per the words of the spec, to ask for anything higher, though there's nothing technically stopping them from doing so.  For HID devices, Windows "upgrades" them to 125Hz, since 100Hz is lacking in many uses such as gaming, regardless of what they ask for.  Linux seems to do something similar.

What these hacks do is cause Windows to "upgrade" things even more for low speed devices.  Some poorly done versions of the hack also apply themselves to full speed devices which can actually cause such devices to be slowed down!

The USB specification does not restrict full speed (12Mbps) devices.  They are permitted to request any polling rate that is an integer divisor of 1000Hz (they actually specify the polling PERIOD in milliseconds) in their descriptor.  Windows seems to respect the devices wishes.  I've asked for 1000Hz before, and Windows complies.  Modern Linux kernels also comply fully, but some older ones max out at 500Hz or sometimes some weird number like 800Hz.

Usually, 250Hz is more than sufficient even for the most picky of gamers.  Most games only poll button and joystick inputs once per (60Hz) frame, anyway.  However, on device that report relative movement, such as mice and trackballs, one has to worry about the relative motion counter overflowing (which causes backspin).  To counter this overflow, one can do two things: increase the polling rate (resetting the counter more frequently so it doesn't have a chance to overflow) or making the counter bigger (so that it takes longer to overflow)

Note that both low speed and full speed are part of the USB 1.1 specification.  A USB 2.0 device can also be low speed or full speed.  "Full speed" always refers to 12Mbps, NEVER to the 480Mbps "high speed" introduced in USB 2.0, even if a device is USB 2.0 compliant.

High speed (480Mbps) devices, which must be USB 2.0, can request much faster polling rates as they request their polling rates in units of 125microseconds.  Very very few HID devices are high speed.  Usually only composite devices with some other function (such as a mouse with integrated flash storage or something similarly weird) in addition to the HID would be high speed.  I'm not aware of any commercially available "arcade IO" devices on the market that are high speed, and it's generally unnecessary.

Note that high speed devices are supposed to degrade gracefully to full speed if at all possible.  Most do (e.g. storage devices get slower, cameras use lower framerates, etc.).
Also note that high speed is faster than full speed.  Put another way, full speed is slower than high speed.  Yes, it's totally unintuitive, but welcome to the world of a hardware standard written by Microsoft and a software standard written by Intel...all while doing who knows what drug(s).

[robertsig]

Ugh. I was changing the wrong value.  I changed sensitivity down the 6% and it works fine.

[MonMotha]

FYI, since what I said above is not obvious if you read certain parts of the USB spec, e.g. the description of the "endpoint descriptor" would lead you to believe that both full and low speed devices can ask for anything between 1-255ms polling periods, see page 51 of the USB 2.0 specification:

A full-speed endpoint can specify a desired period from 1 ms to 255 ms. Low-speed endpoints are limited to specifying only 10 ms to 255 ms.