TurboTwist Hi-Low Spinner Backspin problem. XP 64 Poll rate, Works Now!

[Bender]

I've finally got this installed and I've got everything set up
I've been reading posts for days about the z-axis and mouse polling and the analog settings and I still can't get this thing to not backspin

It's driving me crazy I'm about to rip it out and try to get my apache spinner to fit in a space half its size

I'm using the x axis

I'm running windows XP 64

I can't seem to get the polling rate above 125Hz, can't find a patch for xp 64 to up the polling rate to 500Hz

any ideas anyone

If I switch to the Z axis will I be able to get a finer control?

[RandyT]

Google sent me to a post in another forum where an XP64 user used the following to up the poll rate and reported success.

http://files.filefront.com/hidusbfzip/;8590375;/fileinfo.html

Let me know how that one works for you.

RandyT

[Bender]

Thanks Randy,

Already tried that one
I might not be laoding it correctly, but I haven't been able to get it to work
in the program it says that it up the poll rate to 500Hz but when I test it it is exactally the same 125Hz 

somebody out there has upped the poll rate in xp 64

anyone?


PS: Randy, Great new spinner Knobs!

[RandyT]

Already tried that one
I might not be laoding it correctly, but I haven't been able to get it to work
in the program it says that it up the poll rate to 500Hz but when I test it it is exactally the same 125Hz 

Hmm...folks are saying that it has been tested and works in XP64.  Did you try it from safe mode?

PS: Randy, Great new spinner Knobs!

Thanks

RandyT

[Bender]

Hi Randy,

I did not try that one in safe mode, I'll do that next if I can get my system back. Could you send me a link to what your reading,

Thanks


I tried the directions from another page and hex edited the usbport.sys file (through safe mode other wise it doesn't change the file) and now my USB ports don't work so I have no way of putting the original file back because the mouse and keyboard don't work 

anybody have any idea how to restore that file without the mouse or keyboard

[SavannahLion]

anybody have any idea how to restore that file without the mouse or keyboard

Would a Restore point cover that file? I'm not sure if it would, but it might be worth checking into.

If not, hopefully you kept a backup? If not, my system maintains two different versions and 16 copies scattered across the hard drive. You might need to copy one of them and replace your mucked copy.

But how to get keyboard/mouse functionality back? That's easy. Use a bootable Live OS DVD disc like Knoppix (Linux) or build your own with BartPE/UBCD4Win (Windows). Obviously you'll need a 2nd functioning PC to burn the DVD, but since you're posting here, I don't see much problem with that. Once you've booted from a Live disc, you can go in on the er... "sleeping" OS, repair the mucked up file, reboot without the Live disc and you should be back in business.

The last option would be to try and reinstall over the old OS and hope it doesn't wipe out your data. But I don't trust Windows install discs (never having actually used my Windows XP install disc for.. GASP! an actual install) and where's the fun in that?

[FrizzleFried]

I am having the very same problem with Window XP x64.  I can not change the poll rate and both my TT and my trackball experience overspin issues.  I've bitched about it in the SOFTWARE forum 3 times now and no one has been able to help me.  My friends want to kick ---my bottom--- as World Class Bowling,  Golden Tee and Shuffleshot are beeing massively affected by this issue.

[Bender]

I am having the very same problem with Window XP x64.  I can not change the poll rate and both my TT and my trackball experience overspin issues.  I've bitched about it in the SOFTWARE forum 3 times now and no one has been able to help me.  My friends want to kick ---my bottom--- as World Class Bowling,  Golden Tee and Shuffleshot are beeing massively affected by this issue.

hey FrizzleFried,

what have you tried so far?
did you try the hidusbf in safe mode?

[RandyT]

If you go to the bottom of the page after following this link, you'll see specific mentions of success doing this with XP 64 and the software linked to earlier.  I don't run XP 64, so I'm afraid all I can do is offer up some possible leads.

RandyT

[FrizzleFried]

If you go to the bottom of the page after following this link, you'll see specific mentions of success doing this with XP 64 and the software linked to earlier.  I don't run XP 64, so I'm afraid all I can do is offer up some possible leads.

RandyT

I am going to the bottom of that page and I see no mention of XP64?

[RandyT]

I am going to the bottom of that page and I see no mention of XP64?

This is what I'm referring to:

This driver/program is intended to "overclock" USB mice under Windows 98 through XP x64, Windows Vista 32 bit, Windows Vista 64 bit (with disabled driver signature enforcement).

Program changes only mouse rate, not touching other devices on USB.

[...]

I have personally tested it under Windows 98SE, Windows 2000 SP2/SP4, Windows XP RTM/SP1/SP2, Windows Vista 32 bit RTM, Windows Vista 64 bit RTM. Testing under Windows XP x64 SP1 was performed by Dark_Cloud.

I see very few references to "XP64" out there, so I am assuming that we are talking about "XP x64" which is the 64 bit XP precursor to Vista.

Check out this thread for more info.  I get the feeling that the "Driver Signature Overrider" being discussed there is integral to the solution.

RandyT

[FrizzleFried]

They're talking about Vista x64... Vista x64 is a different beast than Windows XP x64.

[u_rebelscum]

They're talking about Vista x64... Vista x64 is a different beast than Windows XP x64.

Err..

This is what I'm referring to:

... Testing under Windows XP x64 SP1 was performed by Dark_Cloud.

They're talking XP x64, too.

[FrizzleFried]

I was referring to his last link.  That "info" file has been posted and is included in the ZIP.  That said.  It doesn't work.  At least not for me.

[RandyT]

I was referring to his last link.  That "info" file has been posted and is included in the ZIP.  That said.  It doesn't work.  At least not for me.

From the last link:

<< Comment #7 @ 02:12 CDT, 22 April 2008 >>
hidusbf work in vista x64 (since it work in XP x64 - and nothing change) - but ONLY with disabled driver signature enforcement.

I have no idea whether this is relevant, but if XP x64 and Vista x64 are both using this "driver signature enforcement", this might explain why the OS is not allowing the changed file. 

If you haven't explored this already, then it's probably where you need to start looking.

*edit* Also, there is a file link in the info for a patched XP x64 usbport.sys.  Have you tried that one? 

RandyT

[Bender]

with a LOT of help from SavannahLion (Thanks so much)
I've got the system back, phew!


so I'm going to install a bluetooth keyboard and try a few more times tonight
I'll let you all know if I get it to work!

[Bender]

OK some progress

1. do not mess with usbport.sys file! it only leads to disaster I did it 3 times all resulting in me having to pull the harddrive and resetting the file on another machine

2. you do need the hidusbf program (from the link RandyT gave above), but it is a little buggy with XP x64

I finally found some instruction from the author that were translated into English, and a couple little things in there gave me some clues here

you don't need to be in safe mode
What I did was install one device at a time, run the setup.exe in the hidusb folder, select a device, set the filter to ON and the rate to 500Hz (or whatever you want) then click the install service button, then click the restart button, then close the window. The next step here I think is the key for XP x64.
Go into the hidusb folder right click the file HIDUSBF.INF and click install, then unplug and replug in the USB device, then restart. Repeat for each device, one other thing I noticed is that for some reason the filter sometimes goes off. if it is off the the device will go back to 125Hz the next time you restart, I had to play around with it to keep all the filters on, kinda weird

I have got this to work on my regular mouse and the TurboTwist Hi-Low spinner
I haven't been able to get it to work with my U-Track ball that is hooked up through a MiniPac, but I haven't had any backspin issues with the Trackball anyway, but I am still curious why it won't work


A note of caution DO NOT right click and install the HIDUSBU.INF file I did that by mistake and none of the mice worked, I had to go into the device manager and revert the drivers back to an earlier version or uninstall the device and then start the whole process over again

FrizzelFried, what track ball/interface combo are you using?
Did you try lowering the analog setting for the games in Mame?
what are the symptoms in Shuffleshot, ect?

Believe it or not If I don't have Tempest set up just right I still get backspin, but with the analog dial sensitivity set to 6 it is perfect, but if I go just up to 10 backspin is back. That is some crazy hi resolution spinner

I know all this is a Little confusing so if anybody need help let me know, I wouldn't want anybody else to have to go through this, It's been driving me bonkers for days

[FrizzleFried]

My MAME settings aren't causing this.  I know because in Windows I experience backspin...

I'll try following your instructions.  I am at my wits end.  My friends and I ended up playing poker last night because we're getting really tired of this issue.  It's killing our World Class Bowling,  Golden Tee and Shuffleshot sessions.  Absolutely killing them.    The games are just about unplayable.

[Bender]

My MAME settings aren't causing this.  I know because in Windows I experience backspin...

I'll try following your instructions.  I am at my wits end.  My friends and I ended up playing poker last night because we're getting really tired of this issue.  It's killing our World Class Bowling,  Golden Tee and Shuffleshot sessions.  Absolutely killing them.    The games are just about unplayable.

Yeah I have no problems with my trackball in windows or those games, sound like you poll rate is even lower than 125Hz

I hope you can get it to work, I know how UNBELIEVABLY frustrating it is

if you don't mind I'd like to know what trackball and interface your using

Good Luck, let me know if you have any questions

I'd try the mouse first and see if that works
I like this program to test the poll rate in windows

[FrizzleFried]

It's a Happ trackball with USB interface built-in.  It worked perfectly fine under Window XP 32... issues arose as soon as I went to Windows XP x64 otherwise I'd suspect there was an issue with the TB itself.

[RandyT]

It's a Happ trackball with USB interface built-in.  It worked perfectly fine under Window XP 32... issues arose as soon as I went to Windows XP x64 otherwise I'd suspect there was an issue with the TB itself.

It may be a coincidence that the HAPP TB started giving you problems at the same time you decided to switch to a different OS.  Backspin is exactly the issue the HAPP TB's exhibit when the opto-sensors start to give out.  If you have been able to boost the poll rate and still see the problem with only the trackball, then it must be the TB that is the problem.  With the original, very low resolution encoders, it's nearly impossible to get backspin on the trackball without some other processing issue at play.

Bender,

6 is the "arcade perfect" setting for the TurboTwist 2 and Tempest.  For some reason, the Atari titles which use optical controls from that time period are very touchy.  I don't know whether it is spotty emulation, or what the situation is there, but if you check out the trackball action on Centipede, you'll see similar weirdness.  But at 6 on Tempest, you should have a "very close to the original" experience.

RandyT

[Bender]

Bender,

6 is the "arcade perfect" setting for the TurboTwist 2 and Tempest.  For some reason, the Atari titles which use optical controls from that time period are very touchy.  I don't know whether it is spotty emulation, or what the situation is there, but if you check out the trackball action on Centipede, you'll see similar weirdness.  But at 6 on Tempest, you should have a "very close to the original" experience.

RandyT

Agreed! Tempest works fantastic now!

What settings would you suggest for atari trackball games?

[RandyT]

What settings would you suggest for atari trackball games?

That's a tough one because it depends on the controller being used and the title in question.  Honestly, I haven't found one that I really like for Centipede because of the way it feels compared to the original machines.  Also, I don't think the later Atari trackball titles suffer from the same "weirdness."

RandyT

[u_rebelscum]

What settings would you suggest for atari trackball games?

That's a tough one because it depends on the controller being used and the title in question.  Honestly, I haven't found one that I really like for Centipede because of the way it feels compared to the original machines.  Also, I don't think the later Atari trackball titles suffer from the same "weirdness."

Yeah agreed.  I'd guess Centipede polls the TB faster than mame, or multiplexes (related but not same thing).  The arcade moves a lot faster than mame.

[Derrick Renaud]

This whole Vista 64 SP1 locked at 125Hz poll rate blows.     I wonder if you can still set the PS2 rate to 200Hz from the default rate of 120Hz.  XP allowed you to set it in the mouse's properties in Device Manager.

As I have explained in the past, 200Hz is the minimum barely useable rate.  Games like Tempest poll at 240Hz.  I think Centipede also does, but can't remember.  They need to poll quick because the games only use a 4 bit counter for +7/-8 change.  Anything larger in a sample period will roll over (backspin).

I have Vista in Test mode and have also tried F8-allow unsigned driver.  hisusbf.sys shows up in the device manager under Human interface devices for the trackball when filter is selected.  But no matter what rate I select, it just uses 125Hz.

So now Tempest backspins even when set to a MAME sensitivity of 6.  It is mostly playable, unless you free spin it.  I always do this at the end of the first levels.  But now you can't.

 

Looks like I'm going back to XP.  The extra speed of using MAME64 is of no use, if the controls are unresponsive.

500Hz is really needed to smooth out what is being sent to MAME.  Someone will have to dig up the old post where I explained all this.

[Derrick Renaud]

What settings would you suggest for atari trackball games?

That's a tough one because it depends on the controller being used and the title in question.  Honestly, I haven't found one that I really like for Centipede because of the way it feels compared to the original machines.  Also, I don't think the later Atari trackball titles suffer from the same "weirdness."

Yeah agreed.  I'd guess Centipede polls the TB faster than mame, or multiplexes (related but not same thing).  The arcade moves a lot faster than mame.

Can someone link to a video showing how the real Centipede game moves when moving the trackball as fast as you can.  This way the issue can be possibly cleared up.

[RandyT]

This whole Vista 64 SP1 locked at 125Hz poll rate blows.     I wonder if you can still set the PS2 rate to 200Hz from the default rate of 120Hz.  XP allowed you to set it in the mouse's properties in Device Manager.

Anything on this page of any use to you?

RandyT

[Derrick Renaud]

Anything on this page of any use to you?

That is what I used.  The driver is installed and shows in device manager.  Setup allows you to set the poll rate and attach/detach the driver from different mice.  But it just never changes the rate from 125Hz.   

[Derrick Renaud]

Some thoughts...

The best fix is to get Vista to run at at least 500Hz poll rate.  But other ideas to try (code) are:

I think DirectX allowed you to set the device to instant read instead of polling.  But this would be useless for multi-mouse.

So that leaves us with smoothing the input.  One quick way would be to modify the windows input code to read the input at the 125Hz poll rate, which it already does.  But then divide it by 8.  Then only add that 1/8 relative movement.  Next fire a timer for 1ms.  Add another 1/8. then fire timer and add 1/8 six more times.  This would delay the input response for 7ms but it should fix Vista problems.  I'll code this up when I get a chance.

A better long term fix would be to make the MAME input core aware of how fast the OS is updating the input system, then adjust the data based on the current MAME emulated time.  This would then be OS independent.

I suggest a option name of -pollfix (-pf).

This should even help people stop getting backspin when using serial mice with a poll rate of 40Hz.  But would delay the input by 24ms for them.

[AndyWarne]

Some thoughts...

The best fix is to get Vista to run at at least 500Hz poll rate. 

This is easy to do with full-speed USB which does not have any constraints on poll rate in Windows. Also 16 bit data packets.

[Derrick Renaud]

Some thoughts...

The best fix is to get Vista to run at at least 500Hz poll rate. 

This is easy to do with full-speed USB which does not have any constraints on poll rate in Windows. Also 16 bit data packets.

Well, I'm using an Opti-PAC.   

On XP, it was limited to 125Hz until I ran the USB poll rate patcher hack.  Then I could use up to 1000Hz without a problem.

Are you saying you know of a way to get the Opti-PAC do more then 125Hz on Vista 64?

[RandyT]

This difficulty, which is not insurmountable from what I have been reading on the web, appears to be primarily an x64 thing.  Other Vista and XP varieties are much easier to tweak the polling rate with.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

Well, I'm using an Opti-PAC.   

On XP, it was limited to 125Hz until I ran the USB poll rate patcher hack.  Then I could use up to 1000Hz without a problem.

Are you saying you know of a way to get the Opti-PAC do more then 125Hz on Vista 64?

Not on the device side, no, but our trackball and spinner interfaces, and U-HID boards use full-speed USB with a poll rate of 2 Ms with 16 bit packets.

[RandyT]

On XP, it was limited to 125Hz until I ran the USB poll rate patcher hack.  Then I could use up to 1000Hz without a problem.

Are you saying you know of a way to get the Opti-PAC do more then 125Hz on Vista 64?

Not on the device side, no, but our trackball and spinner interfaces, and U-HID boards use full-speed USB with a poll rate of 2 Ms with 16 bit packets.

With the simple patch (most Windows OS'es) and no different hardware, a 1 ms poll interval is possible, which is twice as fast.  Although anything over 300hz is probably overkill anyway, especially for low resolution trackballs.

[Bender]

On XP, it was limited to 125Hz until I ran the USB poll rate patcher hack.  Then I could use up to 1000Hz without a problem.

Are you saying you know of a way to get the Opti-PAC do more then 125Hz on Vista 64?

Not on the device side, no, but our trackball and spinner interfaces, and U-HID boards use full-speed USB with a poll rate of 2 Ms with 16 bit packets.

With the simple patch (most Windows OS'es) and no different hardware, a 1 ms poll interval is possible, which is twice as fast.  Although anything over 300hz is probably overkill anyway, especially for low resolution trackballs.

Hey RandyT,

if it's possible to do it on the hardware side, why not just do it so that the user doesn't have to mess with the patch and it won't matter what OS you have it would be Plug n play?

[RandyT]

if it's possible to do it on the hardware side, why not just do it so that the user doesn't have to mess with the patch and it won't matter what OS you have it would be Plug n play?

Because I don't wish to give up USB 1.1 compatibility for a faux feature when there are widely used software methods for doing the same thing without sacrificing overall system compatibility.  There are a lot more computers out there being used for Arcade style gaming with USB 1.1 ports than with 64-bit OS's (which can still be made to work fine, with a little more effort).

I have been considering some ways to keep the best of all worlds, but they are still in the early stages.

RandyT

[Derrick Renaud]

I was asked to explain this in a PM, but I thought it might help others understand the problem, or at least further confuse the issue. 

There really is no one fit all description of how backspin happens.  Different arcade games implemented counter circuits differently and poll at different rates.  But the just of it is that old games like Centipede and Tempest used 4bit counters.  The game needed to read these quite rapidly so they did not overflow.  Tempest reads at 240Hz IIRC.  So you can see that Windows 125Hz can't keep up, let alone a serial mouse at 40Hz.

Lets say the arcade game read at 250Hz.  With Windows locked at 125Hz we have this scenario.

Assume a spinner is moving at 1 step per 1ms.  The game reads every 4ms.  Windows only gives valid data every 8ms.  This means the game gets data the first read at 4ms as 0, then  at 8ms it reads 8 from the supplied windows data.  The game is really expecting a smooth 4,4 read.

MAME just masks the windows supplied  data to the requested number of bits.  So if the spinner moves at 2 steps per 1ms, the game expects 8,8 reads, but after 8ms windows supplies 16 which masked to 4 bits now sends the game 0.

MAME can not hack the data so that it will not overflow.  Because even a real spinner on a real arcade game can backspin if moved fast enough.  Blocking overflow is not the fix.

Windows needs to supply the data quicker then the game needs it.  At least 2x quicker.  That is why 500Hz works great.  1000Hz is only marginally better.  Most people would not notice.

I have been thinking about it allot after installing Vista64.  I can not stand Vista and how inflexible it is and would not use it except for the 20-30% speed gain of the 64bit MAME.  So unless I can get it working, I'm going back to XP.

I do have a thought how to make MAME's handling of low poll rates better though.  If I keep track of the time since the last Windows supplied mouse data, I can fudge the data to smooth it out.  It would introduce a delay up to 1 sample, but might work out OK.  Rember 1 sample means an 8ms delay at 125Hz.  25ms delay for a 40Hz serial mouse hack that no one should even bother using in the first place.

Say we have the current 8ms poll rate, then Mame request data 4ms into the poll period, normally it receives the full data, and resets the counter to 0.  I think if I only send it 4/8 of the data, then it might smooth things out.  There is a little more fancy footwork to it then that, but that is the basics of the idea I want to try.

It is no substitution for a proper Windows 500Hz rate, but it might be better then nothing.

[Bender]

if it's possible to do it on the hardware side, why not just do it so that the user doesn't have to mess with the patch and it won't matter what OS you have it would be Plug n play?

Because I don't wish to give up USB 1.1 compatibility for a faux feature when there are widely used software methods for doing the same thing without sacrificing overall system compatibility.  There are a lot more computers out there being used for Arcade style gaming with USB 1.1 ports than with 64-bit OS's (which can still be made to work fine, with a little more effort).

I have been considering some ways to keep the best of all worlds, but they are still in the early stages.

RandyT

Fair enough

can't say I personally agree on the priorities, but that is certainly a legit reason

and by the way "a little more effort" was a weeks worth of trial and error, and having to pull my hard drive 3 times to fix stuff, I almost had to reinstall the whole OS but for some great advice from another forum member

[RandyT]

and by the way "a little more effort" was a weeks worth of trial and error, and having to pull my hard drive 3 times to fix stuff, I almost had to reinstall the whole OS but for some great advice from another forum member

Heh, but to be honest about the situation, that was an atypical experience......glad to hear you got everything going, though.

[Derrick Renaud]

and by the way "a little more effort" was a weeks worth of trial and error, and having to pull my hard drive 3 times to fix stuff, I almost had to reinstall the whole OS but for some great advice from another forum member

So you actually have Vista 64 SP1 with all current updates patched to do 500Hz?  And the mouserate program confirms the higher poll rate?

If so how?