Push/ Pull Spinners

[Visitor Q]

I was all set to order the Apache Blackhawk Spinner (http://www.apachecontrols.com/) when I came across this guy here:

Turbo Twist High-Low

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=86&products_id=311

I have read good reviews on the Blackhawk but this is the first I have seen the other.

Can anyone tell me what one is newer as they both claim to be the only push/ pull spinner out there and on top of that, what one is better?

Thanks.

[RayB]

Click this link here: LINK

[Visitor Q]

Click this link here: LINK

That link redirects me to this page.

[abzman2000]

well it redirects ME to the search function so this is probably a not-very-subtule attempt to tell you that this information already exists on this forum somewhere, and he would rather you found it yourself, or simply wants to remind you to search things before posting. 

[Visitor Q]

Maybe RayB could have link me to those posts rather than the search function or not even replied at all? 

Maybe both of you skipped over the part where I said "I have read good reviews on the Blackhawk". 

[Bender]

I have both and think they are both very good products and very well made, I don't think you'll be disappointed with either

for me the Apache has little better fell overall (more classic arcade) and a longer free spin time but it is pretty big

the GGG spiner is much smaller and I might be using because of that feature in an application where I have very limited space. I think it would have a better free spin time if Randy built in the ability to add a weight on the bottom, but as it is now there isn't enough room on the end of the shaft to add one

[Visitor Q]

I have both and think they are both very good products and very well made, I don't think you'll be disappointed with either

for me the Apache has little better fell overall (more classic arcade) and a longer free spin time but it is pretty big

the GGG spiner is much smaller and I might be using because of that feature in an application where I have very limited space. I think it would have a better free spin time if Randy built in the ability to add a weight on the bottom, but as it is now there isn't enough room on the end of the shaft to add one

Thank you for your reply.

[CheffoJeffo]

To answer one of your questions, the TTHL is the newer spinner and claims to be the only high resolution push-pull spinner on the market (emphasis same as on the GGG site). The Blackhawk page is just out of date with their claim (they were the only option for a long while, but they are no longer the only game in town).

I have not used either unit, but if I was looking for a push-pull spinner and wanted to play Arkanoid or other game requiring higher resolution, I'd probably choose the TTHL based on the various discussions on the topic.

[Visitor Q]

Higher resolution from a spinner, does that even make sense?

[Bender]

Higher resolution from a spinner, does that even make sense?

yes

But I have to turn the sensitivity way down to even use the TTHL
so I'd trade the better feel for a higher resolution that isn't useful for gameing

[CheffoJeffo]

Higher resolution from a spinner, does that even make sense?

At this point, I recommend that you RayB's advice ...

[Visitor Q]

I found no reviews on the Turbo Twist HL only on the one from Blackhawk, that is one of the reason I posted this thread.

[CheffoJeffo]

No, but you don't know about the role resolution plays so should probably research it before making a decision.

Some examples:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70380.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83297.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82763.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82447.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69935.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68291.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64858.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63883.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63350.0

Can you hear me now ?

 

[erictrumpet]

The Apache is the best piece of arcade gear I have in my cabinet! Built like a tank, works great, absolutely commercial-grade. I don't get that impression with any GGG products, but they seem to have a following here on these boards with hobbyists. My vote: Apache Blackhawk all the way. You won't be disappointed. And Dave at Apache is terrific when it comes to customer service.

Eric.

[RayB]

The threads that discuss spinners and Groovy Game Gear products tend to get REALLY long. Randy (the owner, operator, founder and inventor at Groovy Game Gear) posts regularly and with much informative detail. I figured it's best to direct you to read what's already been posted, than to expect history to be re-written here.

The maker of the Apache spinner also posts here, usually in the same threads mentioned above.
 

[shmokes]

I'm not usually a fan of Randy's joysticks or spinner knobs.  I've never used any of them . . . I just mean that I don't like the design.  I don't like that bat/ball hybrid stick and I've just never liked his spinner knobs as much as the competition.  It's completely subjective of course . . . I just don't typically go for his style.  But I'll be damned if the knob on that up/down spinner isn't a bloody work of art.  That is hands down, unquestionably the greatest spinner knob ever created in the history of the universe. 

Strangely I can't attach a picture even though it's only 50k.  Must be something wrong with the site at the moment.  You'll just have to click the link and scroll down a little to see it. 

[Visitor Q]

I'll take time and read the liniks posted above and report back with more questions, I'm sure I will have them. 

[isucamper]

I just ordered the Turbo Twist HL a few days ago.  I chose it because it's higher resolution means it will be able to play games like Arkanoid (which require a higher resolution/precision) more authentically.  Also, in some of the threads, people have stated that spinning the Blackhawk while it's pushed results in a grinding noise.  Probably not a big deal (not sure if gameplay would actually lead me to doing this), but it made me hesitant none the less.

Also, I understand why the regulars on this board might get annoyed when someone asks a question on the main page that has already been asked a million times... but way too often the initial response to any question on here is a snarky reply linking the search function.  Even when (such is the case with this thread) the OP is asking a unique question.  I've kept my eye on the spinner threads, and I know that there's never been an in-depth comparision between the two push/pull spinners on the market, so this thread could definitely offer something new to the database.

[Dazz]

I recently got a TT2 and the blue spinner knob, but I was looking at the Push/Pull spinner.  I ended up going with the TT2 instead as there really aren't very many games that require a push/pull and for the money I couldn't justify it right now.

BTW - the knobs on the TT2 feel cheap.  I think the blue one that I purchased additionally was made of plastic with a metal insert.  It just felt cheap when trying to use it...  I thankfully had my good ol Oscar laying around that had the engraved MAME spinner knob on it.  It fits the TT2 perfectly and feels much much much better.  I really wish I wouldn't have spent the extra on the different knob...

[Visitor Q]

Hey Dazz.

Yeah the push and pull it not really used for too many games but it is just one more feature that is nice to have. I'm sure you could find ways to incorporate it into games that may not even use it, if that makes sense.

[shmokes]

It seems strange that Randy doesn't make that beautiful spinner knob that comes with the up/down spinner available as an accessory for the TT2. 

[Visitor Q]

So far it seems like the Apache Blackhawk Spinner is the best choice from what I am reading. GGG will be getting a lot of my $$$ though, I am ordering LED stuff from them amoung other things. 

[Visitor Q]

No, but you don't know about the role resolution plays so should probably research it before making a decision.

Some examples:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70380.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83297.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82763.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82447.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69935.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68291.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64858.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63883.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63350.0

Can you hear me now ?

 

A few of these links are ok but they do not really touch on the difference between the two spinners I asked about, infact some most of them don't even talk about either of them at all.

[CheffoJeffo]

Those threads talked about spinner resolution, which was what I was suggesting that you should research after you wondered how the term high resolution could be applied to a spinner.

If you are going to choose between those two spinners, the biggest difference in my book is the issue of resolution and you should have at least *some* idea as to whether or not that issue is relevant for you before making a decision.

[Visitor Q]

After reading this review, it would seem that the one from Blackhawk is an excellent choice.

http://www.retroblast.com/20060704171/Hardware/RetroBlast-Review-The-Blackhawk-Spinner-by-Apache-Controls.php

[Hoopz]

Are you planning on playing Arkanoid or any spinner games that require a high resolution?

[Tim N.]

After reading this review, it would seem that the one from Blackhawk is an excellent choice.

http://www.retroblast.com/20060704171/Hardware/RetroBlast-Review-The-Blackhawk-Spinner-by-Apache-Controls.php

The Blackhawk is an excellent choice. Ironically I was just talking to Randy yesterday about his push/pull spinner as I had been out of the mame loop for about a year while I finished my multipin project. It sounds as though Randy's (GGG) push/pull is a phenomenal choice as well. I have had the Blackhawk for two weeks now (wasn't aware the GGG was actually in production when I purchased) and have nothing but good things to say about it. If I were to nitpick the only two things would be the large footprint it requires, and the"grinding" noise. And even that noise isn't really grinding, but a slight rubbing sound as the metal disc rotates while in contact with the plastic microswitch actuator(only when push/pull not just rotating). I had been a Slikstik user for many years and my most recent cabinet, it was difficult to find a tornado anywhere. I have to say that the Apache feels really good. I haven't played all of the spinner games yet, but the ones I have played, played well.

I think both products are an excellent choice regardless, and that both vendors feel that they have the best product on the market (as they should, because they both seem to be really good)......In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

[Visitor Q]

Are you planning on playing Arkanoid or any spinner games that require a high resolution?

I want to use this for all mame games that use a spinner.

[Hoopz]

In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

I don't think this is the case.  They both are named David but the owner of Apache Controls posts under apachecontrols.  I think whynotpizza is a member like us (non vendor).  

[Visitor Q]

After reading this review, it would seem that the one from Blackhawk is an excellent choice.

http://www.retroblast.com/20060704171/Hardware/RetroBlast-Review-The-Blackhawk-Spinner-by-Apache-Controls.php

The Blackhawk is an excellent choice. Ironically I was just talking to Randy yesterday about his push/pull spinner as I had been out of the mame loop for about a year while I finished my multipin project. It sounds as though Randy's (GGG) push/pull is a phenomenal choice as well. I have had the Blackhawk for two weeks now (wasn't aware the GGG was actually in production when I purchased) and have nothing but good things to say about it. If I were to nitpick the only two things would be the large footprint it requires, and the"grinding" noise. And even that noise isn't really grinding, but a slight rubbing sound as the metal disc rotates while in contact with the plastic microswitch actuator(only when push/pull not just rotating). I had been a Slikstik user for many years and my most recent cabinet, it was difficult to find a tornado anywhere. I have to say that the Apache feels really good. I haven't played all of the spinner games yet, but the ones I have played, played well.

I think both products are an excellent choice regardless, and that both vendors feel that they have the best product on the market (as they should, because they both seem to be really good)......In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

Good info., I will try to keep that all in mind.

So with what you said, do you think you would go back and choose the TT HL over the Apache now? I know you sauid you are very happy with it and the reviews that I posted seems very positive.

I am just trying to buy the very best and when you are spending over 100 on a spinner, I think that is not too much to ask.

[Visitor Q]

In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

I don't think this is the case.  They both are named David but the owner of Apache Controls posts under apachecontrols.  I think whynotpizza is a member like us (non vendor).  

Yeah, I saw that as well but you never know...

Well I invite any of those owners to tell me why I should buy their product over the other.

[Hoopz]

Are you planning on playing Arkanoid or any spinner games that require a high resolution?

I want to use this for all mame games that use a spinner.

I understand that.  I think the point that you are missing and that multiple people are trying to make is that the spinner resolution does matter depending on the games you want to play (spinner games played with the spinner).  RandyT's spinner has a higher resolution than the Apache spinner and it directly relates to how you play some games (spinner games with the spinner).  It doesn't affect ALL games (spinner games with the spinner) though.  

That's why I specifically asked about Arkanoid (spinner game that can be played with a spinner).  Most every thread talking about this game (spinner game played with a spinner) discusses the need for a high resolution spinner and what happens when you play it (it being Arkanoid which is a spinner game played with a spinner) without a high resolution spinner.

I don't have a dog in this fight (Michael Vick!  ) so I don't have a preference on which one you use.  However, I do think it's a good idea that you understand the differences between the two before deciding on one.  The question of which is better is highly subjective in terms of feel, sound, playing etc as the spinners share many attributes.  Looking at the differences between the two may help you decide which to purchase.

[Tim N.]

In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

I don't think this is the case.  They both are named David but the owner of Apache Controls posts under apachecontrols.  I think whynotpizza is a member like us (non vendor).  

Trust me... it IS the case... That being said, David seems to be a great guy and shouldn't need to pump product "third party"

[Visitor Q]

Are you planning on playing Arkanoid or any spinner games that require a high resolution?

I want to use this for all mame games that use a spinner.

I understand that.  I think the point that you are missing and that multiple people are trying to make is that the spinner resolution does matter depending on the games you want to play (spinner games played with the spinner).  RandyT's spinner has a higher resolution than the Apache spinner and it directly relates to how you play some games (spinner games with the spinner).  It doesn't affect ALL games (spinner games with the spinner) though.  

That's why I specifically asked about Arkanoid (spinner game that can be played with a spinner).  Most every thread talking about this game (spinner game played with a spinner) discusses the need for a high resolution spinner and what happens when you play it (it being Arkanoid which is a spinner game played with a spinner) without a high resolution spinner.

I don't have a dog in this fight (Michael Vick!  ) so I don't have a preference on which one you use.  However, I do think it's a good idea that you understand the differences between the two before deciding on one.  The question of which is better is highly subjective in terms of feel, sound, playing etc as the spinners share many attributes.  Looking at the differences between the two may help you decide which to purchase.

Well RetroBlast! seems like they know what they are talking about and here is some highlights from that review.

"Right out of the box it worked perfectly with every MAME game I threw at it, and even better, the sensitivity and responsiveness of the spinner felt spot-on. I didn’t have to adjust a single game, a rarity when I’ve done spinner testing. The spinner is a 48-tooth design, which means that it theoretically has less sensitivity than some of the other spinners on the market, but I saw nothing during gameplay that indicated this. In fact, I got some of my highest scores on Tempest ever with this spinner."

"One humorous thing I saw was with this spinner was what I would call the first "perfect backspin" that I have ever seen in spinner testing. Basically, when you really crank up MAME's spinner sensitivity settings, the Blackhawk, like all other spinners, will eventually exhibit backspin. However, in the case of the Blackhawk, the backspin was perfectly consistent: spin left, the cursor will go right. Spin right, the cursor goes left. No stopping, back-tracking, or stuttering — it just reversed orientation. A perfect backspin, so to speak."

I am just going on here by what I have read so by all means if the above does not sound right or that is not a trusted site, please let me know.

[Tim N.]

After reading this review, it would seem that the one from Blackhawk is an excellent choice.

http://www.retroblast.com/20060704171/Hardware/RetroBlast-Review-The-Blackhawk-Spinner-by-Apache-Controls.php

The Blackhawk is an excellent choice. Ironically I was just talking to Randy yesterday about his push/pull spinner as I had been out of the mame loop for about a year while I finished my multipin project. It sounds as though Randy's (GGG) push/pull is a phenomenal choice as well. I have had the Blackhawk for two weeks now (wasn't aware the GGG was actually in production when I purchased) and have nothing but good things to say about it. If I were to nitpick the only two things would be the large footprint it requires, and the"grinding" noise. And even that noise isn't really grinding, but a slight rubbing sound as the metal disc rotates while in contact with the plastic microswitch actuator(only when push/pull not just rotating). I had been a Slikstik user for many years and my most recent cabinet, it was difficult to find a tornado anywhere. I have to say that the Apache feels really good. I haven't played all of the spinner games yet, but the ones I have played, played well.

I think both products are an excellent choice regardless, and that both vendors feel that they have the best product on the market (as they should, because they both seem to be really good)......In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

Good info., I will try to keep that all in mind.

So with what you said, do you think you would go back and choose the TT HL over the Apache now? I know you sauid you are very happy with it and the reviews that I posted seems very positive.

I am just trying to buy the very best and when you are spending over 100 on a spinner, I think that is not too much to ask.

I don't know- do you like Ford or Chevy? Do you see what I am getting at... it is a choice you would have to make... I have never used the GGG spinner, so I can't give opinion on that.... If you were asking if I would buy the Apache again.... Yes I would, it feels really good to me and is built solid. Had I bought the GGG push/pull first, I would probably being the same thing- it looks really good.... As far as resolution settings and Arkanoid, my opinion is that I did not grow up a hardcore Arkanoid player to know that the lower resolution feels different than the higher... Honestly, if I loved Arkanoid so much and wanted the authentic feel, I would just buy a dedicated Arkanoid for the price of one of these spinners (Actually picked one-Arkanoid- up for 125.00 and sold it later)... I had the real estate on my control panel for the Apache and it mounted similar to the tornado (I already had the artwork on thinking I was getting a tornado) so it was an easy choice for me as I didn't need to modify my CP at all.....


Here is a pic-

[Visitor Q]

HAH! Neither, I had American cars. 

No, I see what you are saying and all but I just want to try and buy the best. I am trying to determine what makes what the better product here.

[shmokes]

Retroblast is a trusted site.  I can't tell exactly what you are waiting for.  It's not like there is a spinner god who will appear on a beam of light and make your decision for you.  You have everything you need.  There are no bombshells here.  Nobody is going to come in and suddenly reveal that one of the spinners is made partially from the tailbones of starving Ethiopian children.  

They both appear to be solid products.  From what I gather (I haven't used either) the Apache has a better build quality.  The GroovyGameGear one ("GGG") obviously has a smaller footprint.  The GGG has a cooler knob.  The Apache appears to play perfectly in every game right out of the box.  The GGG has a much higher resolution (though the benefits of this appear to be questionable).  The Apache has a longer spin time (though the benefits of this appear to be questionable).

I don't know what else you think you're going to learn.  You're going to be super happy with either of them.  You're going to give yourself ulcers if you agonize over every little thing like this.

[stan2323]

Also, I understand why the regulars on this board might get annoyed when someone asks a question on the main page that has already been asked a million times... but way too often the initial response to any question on here is a snarky reply linking the search function.  Even when (such is the case with this thread) the OP is asking a unique question.  I've kept my eye on the spinner threads, and I know that there's never been an in-depth comparision between the two push/pull spinners on the market, so this thread could definitely offer something new to the database.

I say ask what you need.  I have tried to use the search function a lot to answerer questions and find it usefulness limited.  From my experience it comes up with about 80% non relevant stuff for your search.  People always say read the WIKI.  Well that only helps if it is up to date.  When you looking at something that is 3 or 4 years old I am suspect of its usefulness.  This is especially true of software that may have 3 or 4 newer versions than what is being talked about in the WIKI.   

[Tim N.]

HAH! Neither, I had American cars. 

No, I see what you are saying and all but I just want to try and buy the best. I am trying to determine what makes what the better product here.

Well, they both are pricey... but if I were really torn and wanted to see first hand the authenticity of every spinner game and how it felt, I would honestly buy both of them, try out every single game with both, and then keep the one I liked better... Then sell the one for 20-30 less than you paid (which someone would most likely jump on to save few $$$)..... That way you are only out 20-30 bucks and you then KNOW which you like better....

[Visitor Q]

Retroblast is a trusted site.  I can't tell exactly what you are waiting for.  It's not like there is a spinner god who will appear on a beam of light and make your decision for you.  You have everything you need.  There are no bombshells here.  Nobody is going to come in and suddenly reveal that one of the spinners is made partially from the tailbones of starving Ethiopian children.  

They both appear to be solid products.  From what I gather (I haven't used either) the Apache has a better build quality.  The GroovyGameGear one ("GGG") obviously has a smaller footprint.  The GGG has a cooler knob.  The Apache appears to play perfectly in every game right out of the box.  The GGG has a much higher resolution (though the benefits of this appear to be questionable).  The Apache has a longer spin time (though the benefits of this appear to be questionable).

I don't know what else you think you're going to learn.  You're going to be super happy with either of them.  You're going to give yourself ulcers if you agonize over every little thing like this.

Wait, wait, wait.... There is no spinner god?

[Visitor Q]

Tim,

Apache looks like it mounts pretty high up, do you like that? Like it does not look to be as low profile as the TT.

[Tim N.]

You can adjust it... I actually like it where it is at (I adjusted it a little higher).... I have a bit larger hand, so my fingers are very comfortable getting underneath the knob without rubbing against the CP... It is versatile in it's mounts as it is adjustable to accomodate different wood thickness and/or metal thickness. It does come with all the hardware for both styles of mounting too..... I imagine the GGG model has that mounting plate to keep the height relatively similar regardless of material as well.... It is a different mounting structure all together...(just basing this on Randy's pics /comments).. I believe if you have a metal CP, for the GGG, you would remove the mounting plate and mount directly through the metal panel as the metal panel would then become your mounting plate... Again two different styles all together achieving the same result (in relative terms)....

[CheffoJeffo]

Also, I understand why the regulars on this board might get annoyed when someone asks a question on the main page that has already been asked a million times... but way too often the initial response to any question on here is a snarky reply linking the search function.  Even when (such is the case with this thread) the OP is asking a unique question.  I've kept my eye on the spinner threads, and I know that there's never been an in-depth comparision between the two push/pull spinners on the market, so this thread could definitely offer something new to the database.

I say ask what you need.  I have tried to use the search function a lot to answerer questions and find it usefulness limited.  From my experience it comes up with about 80% non relevant stuff for your search.  People always say read the WIKI.  Well that only helps if it is up to date.  When you looking at something that is 3 or 4 years old I am suspect of its usefulness.  This is especially true of software that may have 3 or 4 newer versions than what is being talked about in the WIKI.   

All of that is fair enough.

Nobody says don't ask questions, only that people do some research first. There is a ton of information here and, while not all of it will always be relevant to your specific question, some of it is. Some of the info will be out of date.

If you find info in the wiki that is out of date, then either update it (that's what it is there for) or at the very least post to that effect on the wiki board so that somebody else can update it. It's disconcerting that folks expect others to take time out to answer their questions, but don't take the time to update the wiki or post reviews once they install the item that they are asking about (not pointing any fingers, just making a general observation).

For my part, if I see the same question asked for the eleventieth time and don't feel like answering, I usually skip the thread. If I feel like answering, I do. I presume others do the same thing. We were all noobs once, so we do understand that it can be overwhelming and confusing. But, it does get frustrating to see the same questions asked again and again by people who failed to do even a basic search. The continual "What is the best 4-Way" and "Trackball works in Windows, but not in MAME" threads grate on people, as do the folks who bump their own threads every 2 hours because people haven't answered their question yet.

As for the search, it isn't perfect, but it isn't that bad and there is always Google, just add site:arcadecontrols.com to your search.

 

[Visitor Q]

You can adjust it... I actually like it where it is at (I adjusted it a little higher).... I have a bit larger hand, so my fingers are very comfortable getting underneath the knob without rubbing against the CP... It is versatile in it's mounts as it is adjustable to accomodate different wood thickness and/or metal thickness. It does come with all the hardware for both styles of mounting too..... I imagine the GGG model has that mounting plate to keep the height relatively similar regardless of material as well.... It is a different mounting structure all together...(just basing this on Randy's pics /comments).. I believe if you have a metal CP, for the GGG, you would remove the mounting plate and mount directly through the metal panel as the metal panel would then become your mounting plate... Again two different styles all together achieving the same result (in relative terms)....

Ahhhh yes, you are right. I do recall seeing that in the review.

Thanks.

[RandyT]

I'll try to address as much of this as I can without getting too wordy.  Not trying to be curt, just no time for a lot of detail at the moment.

Anyone who thinks that resolution in a spinner doesn't matter, either A) has never compared the two side-by-side,  B) never played a game where it matters, C) has a "horse in the race" or D) is not very discriminating about their gameplay.   That's all I'll say on that topic, as it has been hashed out plenty of times before this.

When it comes to build quality, bigger / heavier doesn't necessarily mean "better".

Anyone who wants a DOT spinner knob just needs to ask.  They will get one at the same price as the TokenTop.  I'm happy to offer them separately.

The TTHL mounts on metal the same as wood, but you can remove the plate if you prefer to do it that way. 

The knob on the TTHL has about 1/4" of adjustment so you can raise or lower it to feel better for you if the default position isn't to your liking.

The TTHL does not "scratch" against the switch contacts when turning.  It feels the same pushed, pulled or static.

Something that all should consider when soliciting opinions or looking at 3rd party reviews is that the individual doing the reviews may or may not have had access to other devices in order to compare them, and may have a totally different set of criterion used to judge them than you might.  Only one opinion really counts in cases like these, and that is yours.



RandyT

[Visitor Q]

Randy,

Thank you very much for your reply and insight on this matter. I have also posted a question in this thread here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=74483.80

Please take the time to reply when time permits.

I am very interested in your products and have already committed myself to buy a number of them.

[BobA]

I have an Apache spinner and it is built like a tank and performs well.  I have not had any experience with Randy's new spinner but I am sure it is excellent as are all of his products.   Make your choice based on available panel space.

[apachecontrols]

Hi Visitor Q,

Here are some things to consider.

Out-of-the-box functionality comes standard with the Blackhawk. This means no customizations required (aka sensitivity tweaks) in Mame for nearly all spinner games.

High quality precision machined aluminum knobs (replica DOT) in choice of 4 different colors.

Push/Pull is adjustable to fine-tune switch activation for optimal play.

Professionally manufactured Stainless Steel and Aluminum Construction, the Blackhawk is built to last!

Have an old spinner and would like to trade-up to the Blackhawk? Check out the extended trade program to get $50 back on a purchase!
 
  http://www.apachecontrols.com/tradeup.html

Full product specifications published for all to see. This certainly comes in handy when trying to decide which product best fits the need. Not all suppliers are this generous, yet we feel this is important to help our customers make informed decisions!

  http://www.apachecontrols.com/manuals/ApacheControlsBlackhawk.pdf
  http://www.apachecontrols.com/blackhawkpictures.html

Countless satisfied customers with installations throughout the US, Canada, UK, Italy, etc.

Listen to what they have to say...

  The delivery was quick, the item was excellently packed and it worked Straight out of the box
  The build quality is second to none, and very robust
  It is weighted well allowing for a firm grip
  The spinner Action is very smooth and precise
  It is an ideal spinner for inclusion In any control panel
  I love the spinner!
  Thanks for such a great product!

All items listed on the website are stock, and typically ship 1-2 business days from the time an order is placed. No waiting here!

100% customer satisfaction guarantee. In the 2+ years we've been in business, not a single customer return.

It is nice to have choices as a consumer.

 

  David


Apache Controls, LLC
P.O. Box 108
Honeoye Falls NY 14472-0108 (USA)
 
ONLINE: www.apachecontrols.com
EMAIL: support@apachecontrols.com

[Visitor Q]

David,

Thank you for your reply.

Would you care to comment on the grinding or rubbing some people have complained about?

[apachecontrols]

Hi Visitor Q,

By design, the microswithes do make contact with the spindle top and botton on push and pull, so naturally any slight contact will continue if a player turns the knob at the same time when pushing or pulling.

Most game play situations do not require a simultaneous push/pull and spin action, so this really isn't an issue. In those cases where this is done, any slight noise produced is not really noticeable given the fact the spinner is mounted within an enclosed control panel. It certainly does not inhibit game play under these conditions.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

  David

Apache Controls, LLC
Honeoye Falls, NY (USA)

ONLINE: www.apachecontrols.com
EMAIL: support@apachecontrols.com

[erictrumpet]

I'll chime in with my opinion on this rubbing noise issue:
I find it physically impossible to push/pull AND spin simultaneously... I literally need to grasp the knob with one hand and pull (or push) it, then with the other hand turn it - that's the only way I can make that rubbing noise.
By the time Kevin Steele wrote his Retroblast review of the Apache, I had already been enjoying mine for a couple of weeks (I was an early adopter ) and I had no idea what he was talking about until I tried to force it, in the way I just described. David at Apache in his post above is being generous when he says it is not an issue "in most gameplay situations" - the truth is, it is NEVER an issue.
I think Kevin only mentioned this "flaw" in his review because there is virtually nothing negative to say about the Blackhawk otherwise.

Randy clings to the resolution issue because it is the only thing that is unique to his unit, but the arguable benefits, scientifically quantifiable or not, simply do not outweigh the other much more important benefits of a solidly built "lifetime" piece of arcade hardware. (Personal opinion of course.)

I will also address one other issue that has come up - the matter of footprint - the Apache chassis is about 3 inches square. That means the chassis extends beyond the footprint of the knob by about an inch in any direction. Unless you are planning to mount a joystick or button within one inch of your spinner knob, you will encounter no difficulties whatsoever with the size of this piece of gear. It is no larger than a typical joystick under the panel.

Also, a lot of people seem to think spinners that mount in button holes are the cat's pajamas. Is it really that much more difficult to drill a 1/4-inch hole with a regular drill bit for a traditional spinner shaft than to drill a full-sized button hole with your forstner bit or hole saw? I'd wager that the former is actually easier than the latter. But I guess it's a wash. It certainly isn't a reason to buy one spinner over another, in my opinion.

And I see in Dave's post above about a $50 spinner trade-in! He wasn't offering that when I ordered mine. I might trade in my old Oscar Vortex (which has a push-kit, but no pull capability) and get a second Blackhawk - I have both spinners on my panel and I use the push button all the time, it would be nice for both of my spinners to have the push AND the pull. They work good as "hidden" admin buttons in non-spinner games, for example. And I can drop the second Blackhawk right into the existing 1/4-inch hole where my Vortex is currently mounted...

By the way although I currently have only one Blackhawk but two spinners, I have two Apache DoT knobs. These knobs are AWESOME. Okay sorry I am starting to sound like a paid commercial advertisement for Apache... I just happen to really love this spinner...

Eric.

[Visitor Q]

I certainly appreciate your opinion and taking the time to write all that. I think you are right, either one seems to be about the same as the other. It does not really seem like either would be a bad purchase but there are a few key issues here that I am seeing.

I respect the fact that David has addressed all my concerns here even the negative ones.

If RetroBlast is indeed a trusted site, their review has spelled it out clearly for me; the Apache is the spinner to beat!

Unfortunately I have search and can not find any reviews on the TurboTwist Push/ Pull and yes, I have looked… Infact I don’t even think anyone has chimed in here to say that they even own one as of yet.

What does worry me is that I have asked Randy a simple question about 3 times on this site as well as sending him and email, no reply. I understand that he is busy, we all are but I cannot even place any order with him until he answers my question. The worst thing about it is he has been on here several times since I have asked him to answer my question and seems to avoid it all together. 

To me, customer service goes along way and that is not to say anything bad about either company as I have yet to deal with them directly with them and their product other than these few questions.

[RandyT]

Randy clings to the resolution issue because it is the only thing that is unique to his unit, but the arguable benefits, scientifically quantifiable or not, simply do not outweigh the other much more important benefits of a solidly built "lifetime" piece of arcade hardware. (Personal opinion of course.)

From my post above, Eric seems to fit into about 3 of those lettered items.  Personal opinion, of course   There's a reason why Ultimarc followed our lead on the resolution thing.  And, Eric, as you obviously don't own both, can you offer an explanation as to how it is that you feel qualified to comment on the construction or durability of the TTHL?

Unfortunately I have search and can not find any reviews on the TurboTwist Push/ Pull and yes, I have looked… Infact I don’t even think anyone has chimed in here to say that they even own one as of yet.

What does worry me is that I have asked Randy a simple question about 3 times on this site as well as sending him and email, no reply. I understand that he is busy, we all are but I cannot even place any order with him until he answers my question. The worst thing about it is he has been on here several times since I have asked him to answer my question and seems to avoid it all together. 

To me, customer service goes along way and that is not to say anything bad about either company as I have yet to deal with them directly with them and their product other than these few questions.

Here's one you may have missed.  It's translated, but you should be able to figure out what's going on.  Since this guy posted, I have been having difficulty keeping up with the orders for them.  I guess I should send him some chocolates or something. 

Your question was a very general one that looked as though it was answered several times over in this thread, and I opted to post here so that others would also see my reply.  But to be quite honest, folks who come to me with a question like "why should I buy your product instead of X" have, almost always, already made up their minds and it results in nothing more than a big waste of my time.  Time that is needed for filling orders, supporting current customers, purchasing inventory, R&D, etc...  To be quite honest, you aren't doing yourself any favors by asking the vendor a question like this.  All you are likely to get is a "hard sell" aimed at getting another piece off of his shelf.  Take the time to do the research, understand what is being talked about, and to a lesser extent, read what people have to say about the items in question.  Keep in mind that most people absolutely love the thing that they happen to own at the time and very few ever do objective comparisons.  But regardless of this fact, there is usually a good amount of real info in there that you can consider when making your purchase.  It should just be filtered by the overall knowledge you have gained from all of your sources.

Good luck and I hope you end up choosing the unit that is the right one for your needs.

RandyT

[u_rebelscum]

I'll chime in with my opinion on this rubbing noise issue:
I find it physically impossible to push/pull AND spin simultaneously... I literally need to grasp the knob with one hand and pull (or push) it, then with the other hand turn it...

Is this a fault of the spinner or the operator?  I ask because Forgotten Worlds requires spin while pressed, and FW is the major reason I'd get a push or push/pull spinner.  I wouldn't care about sound, but spinning while pressed is a requirement for me.

Sorry, but I'm going to 
OP, IMO two separate reviews, each one individual product, are usually more a contest of better writing than of the actual products.  IMO, one review on both the products shows a much better comparison than half a dozen on one and six on the other.  However, one review on both still can be too biased or look at different features than what matters to me, for myself to take at face value.  And IMO all the reviews in the world isn't as good as personal hands on.  These are my opinion for all reviews I look at, be it a spinner or five figure new car.

In the past, I've loved stuff others hated, prefer one over another while others are the reverse, and gotten stuff I didn't like based on others preferences.

Because of all the above, I have gotten very reluctant to recommend a product I like or even love over an other if I don't have that other product.  I could have made a great choice, but I have no way to say the other wasn't a better choice.

Back to a comparison: I have a TT2 and an Oscar Push/Pull Tron remake spinner (think high quality ATT pre-Apache push/pull), plus about half a dozen other spinners (but not the TT-HL nor Apache).  The TT2 is great for arkanoid due to the high res, the Oscar Push/Pull excellent for FW but is not up to snuff for arkanoid for me.  From what I have, I'd deduce the Apache is not good enough for me to play arkanoid also, but I don't know how well either will do with FW (although it sounds like the Apache won't work for that from what eric said).

Not that I'm saying don't get Apache; it sounds like a great product for most people.  I'm saying:
Rank the games that matter to you,
rank the features that matter to you, and
then make your decision based on your values, not on how loud the different fans/sellers hype/dis one product vs the other.

Okay off my soap box....

[erictrumpet]

Rebelscum I've played Forgotten Worlds and I don't see how it works any differently than, say, Discs of Tron with regard to pushing/pulling while simultaneously turning the wheel. Like DoT, you push or pull it - like a button - a quick bump down, or tug up - you don't push/pull and HOLD, and then while holding the "button," also turn (which as I said above is not physically possible as far as I can tell). Now, do you hit/tug the push/pull when the spinner is in motion? Sure, but this is only a fraction of a second - and creates no rubbing noise. Only sustained pushing/pulling with simultaneous turning of the knob (an awkward two-handed maneuver) does it. Pardon my lack of familiarity with Forgotten Worlds - I play it, but it's not a personal favorite - perhaps I am just not playing the game right!
Also - I agree completely on reviews and opinions being just that. Personal experience and subjective conclusions. But that's what this board is all about - sharing personal opinions to help people make an informed choice. For my money the Apache has been great. As they say, your mileage may vary - but I doubt it would vary much! It's a great product (as are many products out there)!

Eric.

[u_rebelscum]

Rebelscum I've played Forgotten Worlds and I don't see how it works any differently than, say, Discs of Tron with regard to pushing/pulling while simultaneously turning the wheel. Like DoT, you push or pull it - like a button - a quick bump down, or tug up - you don't push/pull and HOLD, and then while holding the "button," also turn (which as I said above is not physically possible as far as I can tell)....

FW needs to press and hold and turn.  When not pressed, the satellite spins around you as well as change direction shooting.  When pressed, the satellite says where it is relative to you, but still changes direction it's shooting.  Sure, much of the time you want the satellite in front of you (the same dirrection you're shooting.  However there are times you want the satellite next to you or behind you.  There are times you want the satellite to stay on the left or right (screen side-wise) of you while changing direction you shot.  Sometimes the satellite gets out of line when you want it directly in front of you, so you need to adjust it back in the heat of battle. 
(Just to clearify: "front" = direction you're shooting, "side" = side of direction shooting, "left" = satellite on left side of the screen compared to you no matter which direction you're shooting, etc)

Example: look up FW at MAWs and look at the CT: in game picture.  The satellite is to right of the character, but they are shooting diagonally up.

I repeat, FW needs to be able to hold and turn, and press (and then hold) while already turning, and release while turning.  Needs, needs, needs.   (Of course IMO )

The original controller was only push, not push/pull, though.

(If people can't tell, FW was one of my favorite games. )

[RandyT]

Only sustained pushing/pulling with simultaneous turning of the knob (an awkward two-handed maneuver) does it.

I just want to clarify something additionally.  I can't speak for other controls, but the TTHL does not require some "awkward two-handed maneuver" in order to push or pull and turn at the same time.  It's a precise and natural motion that is easy to perform.  I'd have had it no other way.

RandyT

[erictrumpet]

LOL

[Ummon]

I'd think an up/down spinner that didn't spin while being pushed or pulled would be kinda clunky, in a way perhaps similar to a 4-way stick that has to center before going a direction adjacent to the current direction pressed.

Also, having a rudimentary grasp of how controls work and why is very helpful in understanding how a product works and how it will work for you.

[shmokes]

Well . . . both spinners in question spin just fine while pushed or pulled.  One just does it silently, while the other generates what I gather is a fairly innocuous noise while it spins.

[TPB]

Well . . . both spinners in question spin just fine while pushed or pulled.  One just does it silently, while the other generates what I gather is a fairly innocuous noise while it spins.

A "fairly innocuous noise" that's caused by friction.

Mind you, the friction shouldn't effect the gameplay.

The friction would be a problem IF it occurred when the spinner was being spun freely.  Fortunately for the Apache, this doesn't happen.

You can't "free spin" a spinner while simultaneously pushing or pulling it.  You can only turn it precisely, which is in effect using it as a dial or paddle, rather than a spinner.

[TPB]

sustained pushing/pulling with simultaneous turning of the knob (an awkward two-handed maneuver)

I can't picture why two hands would be required for ANY spinner operation.

Surely you should be able to push or pull the knob, while turning it, all with the same hand.  The Apache might generate some friction while doing this motion, but does it generate so much resistance that two hands are required ?

If this is the case, then the TT-HL appears to be the push-pull spinner of choice, and that's without even considering its higher resolution.

[Visitor Q]

Higher resolution seems like a wash to me since the review on the Apache stated that all the games played fine with no adjustments.

[RandyT]

Higher resolution seems like a wash to me...

There have been at least a couple of members here telling you just the opposite.  Again, "fine" is in the eye of the beholder.  If you happen to be an individual who is less demanding of accuracy, authenticity and playability, or are not interested in the analog potentiometer and/or high-resolution spinner controlled games (and this includes the driving variety) then you should be "fine" with a low-res spinner.

But there's definitely no "wash" here.  The difference is very real and quantifiable.  It affects gameplay and how severely, if at all, depends completely on the game being played.

RandyT

[erictrumpet]

You can't "free spin" a spinner while simultaneously pushing or pulling it.  You can only turn it precisely, which is in effect using it as a dial or paddle, rather than a spinner.

This is what I meant when I said it takes two hands to do it. I guess my point was that pushing and turning, or pulling and turning, of course you can do that, but why would you want/need to? (Apparently to play Forgotten Worlds, I didn't know that till now. By the way I've been enjoying that game with my Apache since learning about this... ) So my point was just that free spinning with a simultaneous push or pull makes little sense.

I should be clearer from now on. I'd have it no other way.

Eric.

[Visitor Q]

Higher resolution seems like a wash to me...

There have been at least a couple of members here telling you just the opposite.  Again, "fine" is in the eye of the beholder.  If you happen to be an individual who is less demanding of accuracy, authenticity and playability, or are not interested in the analog potentiometer and/or high-resolution spinner controlled games (and this includes the driving variety) then you should be "fine" with a low-res spinner.

But there's definitely no "wash" here.  The difference is very real and quantifiable.  It affects gameplay and how severely, if at all, depends completely on the game being played.

RandyT

Most of those people don't own both spinners so that can't even compare them in that way. I am just going off of what I read about the Apache, that it works perfect out of the box with no configuring in Mame.

[RandyT]

Most of those people don't own both spinners so that can't even compare them in that way. I am just going off of what I read about the Apache, that it works perfect out of the box with no configuring in Mame.

I understand that fact quite well.  But I think you need to understand that the statement "works perfect out of the box" is one that is, at best, extremely misleading.  While it may be true for a hand full of games, there are far too many different controls, different configurations and different decoding schemes for that to even be possible.  Remember, you are relying on the knowledge of a reviewer in cases like these, and you have no way of knowing the extent of that knowledge.  He could be less knowledgeable than you.

RandyT

[Visitor Q]

Most of those people don't own both spinners so that can't even compare them in that way. I am just going off of what I read about the Apache, that it works perfect out of the box with no configuring in Mame.

He could be less knowledgeable than you.

RandyT

 

Well that is doubtful!

I am just going on the fact that where I read this was Retro Blast which is a respectable site from what I am told by the users of this forum.

[Bender]

Randy,

You make Fantastic products that are of great benefit to the community
They are solid, well built ,well designed and innovative


let them speak for themselves
they'll do a far better job

[RandyT]

let them speak for themselves
they'll do a far better job

Thank you for the compliments, but I'm not sure I understand this statement.  I'm not pushing a product here, only trying to make sure that the benefits of high resolution in a spinner are understood by potential spinner buyers.  It's clear from this discussion, that this is still something that needs to be talked about, regardless of how often or in depth it has been discussed in the past.

Maybe I need a different account here so everyone doesn't automatically assume I'm pushing a product when I try to share knowledge on a subject. 

RandyT

[Visitor Q]

Randy,

You make Fantastic products that are of great benefit to the community
They are solid, well built ,well designed and innovative


let them speak for themselves
they'll do a far better job

+1

You have selective hearing Randy. I have asked you direct questions in other threads that you have choose to ignore. I am going to be spending hundreds of dollars on your products, is it too much to ask for a little bit more personable service?

Sorry… Just being honest about how I feel here.

[RandyT]

You have selective hearing Randy. I have asked you direct questions in other threads that you have choose to ignore. I am going to be spending hundreds of dollars on your products, is it too much to ask for a little bit more personable service?

Some things belong in email and not public forums.  Send me an email (it'll help to identify yourself in it) and I'll be happy to answer your questions.

RandyT

[Visitor Q]

You have selective hearing Randy. I have asked you direct questions in other threads that you have choose to ignore. I am going to be spending hundreds of dollars on your products, is it too much to ask for a little bit more personable service?

Some things belong in email and not public forums.  Send me an email (it'll help to identify yourself in it) and I'll be happy to answer your questions.

RandyT

Thats fine and I am not looking to cause trouble here or with you so please don't consider this a personal attack, it has nothing to do with anything of the such. I will be more than happy to email, infact I will do so right now.

Thank You.

[TPB]

+1

I don't always agree with Randy's comments, but I do in this thread.

The info. he has provided is measured, factual, and is solely intended to aid Visitor Q's purchase decision, nothing more.

Geez, a spinner thread would be pretty dull without a contribution from the vendors, wouldn't it ?   

I appreciate their contribution to the forum.

Apache Controls have "said their piece" in this thread, so why bag Randy when he does the same ?

[shmokes]

let them speak for themselves
they'll do a far better job

. . . I'm not sure I understand this statement. 

Yet it is a statement you see on a pretty regular basis, even from many of your happy customers who wouldn't hesitate to do business with you a thousand times over.  Take it on faith if you must, but it's good advice.  There's a condescending, dismissive, tactless quality to the way you converse.  I have seen your store.  You have a bunch of REALLY amazing-looking products that you invented.  You are obviously incredibly talented.  But you can't be good at everything.  You need a public face.  But, whatever . . . I'm over it.   

[erictrumpet]

Yet it is a statement you see on a pretty regular basis, even from many of your happy customers who wouldn't hesitate to do business with you a thousand times over.  Take it on faith if you must, but it's good advice.  There's a condescending, dismissive, tactless quality to the way you converse.  I have seen your store.  You have a bunch of REALLY amazing-looking products that you invented.  You are obviously incredibly talented.  But you can't be good at everything.  You need a public face.  But, whatever . . . I'm over it.   

I always wonder why whenever anyone posts a comment about Randy's obnoxious manner of corresponding with people on these boards, they feel compelled to qualify their criticism with gushing statements about how awesome GGG is. Guys, there are alternatives to everything. Between Ultimarc, Apache, and good old-fashioned DIY homebrew ingenuity, you can have everything you ever wanted in your cab without patronizing a business whose owner deals with customers in a way you may not like. I personally do not like how Randy talks to people on these boards. So, I don't buy his stuff. Plain and simple. And I lack nothing - not controls, not lighting, not interfaces, NOTHING. And although it matters not to me, if high-res spinners is your thing, Ultimarc's got you covered there too.

Eric.

 

[shmokes]

Because this is a community and a discussion forum.  I'm not qualifying my statement, I'm giving him advice.  And I'm trying to impress on him that my bad opinion has nothing to do with the quality of his products (I've never actually used a single one).  It seems crazy to invent all these great products and then have people refuse to buy them, not because they suck, but because the inventor sucks as public relations.  But that is happening.  But, whatever . . . I'm over it.   

[RandyT]

I always wonder why whenever anyone posts a comment about Randy's obnoxious manner of corresponding with people on these boards, they feel compelled to qualify their criticism with gushing statements about how awesome GGG is. Guys, there are alternatives to everything. Between Ultimarc, Apache, and good old-fashioned DIY homebrew ingenuity, you can have everything you ever wanted in your cab without patronizing a business whose owner deals with customers in a way you may not like. I personally do not like how Randy talks to people on these boards. So, I don't buy his stuff. Plain and simple. And I lack nothing - not controls, not lighting, not interfaces, NOTHING. And although it matters not to me, if high-res spinners is your thing, Ultimarc's got you covered there too.

Eric, 

You are not, nor will you obviously ever be a customer of GGG.  So, once again, you feel you are qualified to comment on something that you have not experienced.  My customers are treated quite well, thank you,  and often are given the opportunity to purchase items that are made specifically for them in order to get them out of a tight spot.  In the many years I have been a contributing member here, I have seen numerous occasions where other vendors, and reviewers, have steered folks in bad directions, either through ignorance or quite possibly something worse.  And I have done my best to help folks, regardless of where their purchases were made.

Again, I am a long standing member here, not just a "vendor".   As such, I will offer an opinion on you, Eric, as you see fit to comment on me.  There are a lot of other much more informed voices on this board than yours.  You are often incorrect with your observations, and become vindictive when your errors are pointed out as such.  I personally do not like how your comments mislead folks into a situation that might possibly disappoint or cause harm to their wallets.  So I put little stock in what you have to say, and recommend that others do the same.  There are folks here with much more useful input like Robin (uRebel), Derrick Rennaud, Kremmit, or any number of other folks who have proven themselves to have the technical ability and desire to actually understand how these things work and why.  This forum is about arcade controls, and your bashing here just ruins it for everyone.

And shmokes, please do get over it  .  I don't intend to be a phony in order to make sales.  I prefer that my customers see and moreover understand the value of what GGG offers and are not "slicked" into buying something that won't do what they expect it to.

RandyT




*edit*  Had to put a smiley in there for shmokes.  We see eye to eye on too many things and I don't want him to think that I dislike him. But he's still a pain in my kiester

[Ummon]

Hey, it's autumn, the leaves are falling.

[Visitor Q]

All I know is this is all a big investment for me. I am just trying to gather as much info. as I can on all this. It is a lot to take in and a lot to consider. I for one am sorry that I may ask questions here that have already been covered time and time again but yes, I am a newbie. Trust me when I say I have used the search function of this site and have spent countless hours reading through posts but sometimes I am just looking for a fresh opinion. I do appreciate everyone who has replied to my posts, both vendors and members. I have even had the opportunity to speak to some of the members here personally one the phone and they have been nothing but helpful. Hell I spoke to DeLuSioNal29 for close to 3 hours on the phone the other night!!!

I plan on giving back here as much as I can as soon as I learn the ropes.

I little off topic here but I just wanted to say it.

[shmokes]

I don't intend to be a phony in order to make sales. 

You seriously have no idea what I'm talking about.     

[Tim N.]

I don't intend to be a phony in order to make sales. 

You seriously have no idea what I'm talking about.     

I think he may be referring to "whynotpizza" being the same as "ApacheControls"....

[shmokes]

Which would make no sense since I obviously never suggested he do such a thing.   

[Bender]

Yet it is a statement you see on a pretty regular basis, even from many of your happy customers who wouldn't hesitate to do business with you a thousand times over.  Take it on faith if you must, but it's good advice.  There's a condescending, dismissive, tactless quality to the way you converse.  I have seen your store.  You have a bunch of REALLY amazing-looking products that you invented.  You are obviously incredibly talented.  But you can't be good at everything.  You need a public face.  But, whatever . . . I'm over it.   

I always wonder why whenever anyone posts a comment about Randy's obnoxious manner of corresponding with people on these boards, they feel compelled to qualify their criticism with gushing statements about how awesome GGG is. Guys, there are alternatives to everything. Between Ultimarc, Apache, and good old-fashioned DIY homebrew ingenuity, you can have everything you ever wanted in your cab without patronizing a business whose owner deals with customers in a way you may not like. I personally do not like how Randy talks to people on these boards. So, I don't buy his stuff. Plain and simple. And I lack nothing - not controls, not lighting, not interfaces, NOTHING. And although it matters not to me, if high-res spinners is your thing, Ultimarc's got you covered there too.

Eric.

 

I don't feel the need to "gush" I have and use regularly many of Randy's products and find his costomer service (offline) very good
my only point is similar to that of shmokes, that he can do them a diservice somtimes by being combative

I have no problem with Randy commenting or explaining in detail his products, I just wish he would leave it at that

+1

I don't always agree with Randy's comments, but I do in this thread.

The info. he has provided is measured, factual, and is solely intended to aid Visitor Q's purchase decision, nothing more.

Geez, a spinner thread would be pretty dull without a contribution from the vendors, wouldn't it ?   

I appreciate their contribution to the forum.

Apache Controls have "said their piece" in this thread, so why bag Randy when he does the same ?

Again I'd have no problem if Randy "did the same" the problem is he doesn't. He post statements that are combative and frankly sometimes insulting... and he post like a billion times and like to into arguments instead of saying his piece and letting it go

if you notice Andy and David post once or twice to answer questions or correct some misinformation then there done (this thread is just one perfect example) and now instead of talking about spinners were talking about Randy,... unfortunate

Randy 8 posts
David 2 posts

ok I'm over it now too!

[RandyT]

if you notice Andy and David post once or twice to answer questions or correct some misinformation then there done

Bender,  when I say the sky is blue, it's because I have extensively tested the color and have seen a consensus stating that the sky is indeed "blue".  When others, who may have a vested interest in making others believe that it is green, state that it is green and are demonstrably causing others to believe that it is green, then what you are saying is that it is perfectly ok, even preferable that I walk away shaking my head and allow this propagation of misinformation.

I'm sorry, but this is not only bad for the community, but it would be grossly irresponsible for me to ignore it.  It may be better for my business to put on a big gloopy virtual smile and say "gee, you sure are pretty smart, won't you buy my perfect stuff" while others are led down paths that could ultimately waste their time and money.  As I have said numerous occasions, I am a devoted member of this community first and a vendor second, so I'm afraid this isn't much of an option.  If you want to compare vendors, start looking at quantities of posts containing generally helpful information not related specifically to one of their products.  You'll see an even larger difference there.

As far as this thread goes, you, Eric and shmokes made it about me.  I was talking about spinners.

RandyT

[Visitor Q]

All I am trying to do is get strait answers quickly, so please reply to my latest email Randy. 

Thank You.

[shmokes]

As far as this thread goes, you, Eric and shmokes made it about me.  I was talking about spinners.

Hey!  How did I make it about you any more than you did?  I simply chimed into an already in-progress conversation about the tone of your posts -- a conversation you were already a part of.  Before that the only thing of not I had said about you is that the knob on your push/pull spinner is a thing of beauty.

[shmokes]

As I have said numerous occasions, I am a devoted member of this community first and a vendor second, so I'm afraid this isn't much of an option. 

FWIW, you can't really do this, no matter how much you want to or how sincere you are.  You just don't have the credibility to.  That's the nature of a conflict of interest.  When the CEO of T-Mobile says that his is the most reliable service, we don't trust him because he has a motive to say that aside from the actual reliability of his service.  He may sincerely believe what he's saying; he may be totally honest.  But he's got a conflict of interest; we take what he says with a giant bucket of salt.

[RandyT]

He may sincerely believe what he's saying; he may be totally honest.  But he's got a conflict of interest; we take what he says with a giant bucket of salt.

The proof is here if you bother to look.  If you still have problems with the notion afterward, I'm afraid that's your issue, not mine.

RandyT

[isucamper]

We should almost start another thread here so we can have one that's actually comparing the spinners, and one that debates the direct roll that vendors should take in the community.  I think both could be informative threads, but this one is supposed to be about the spinners... so lets get back to it.

So, I got my Turbo Twist High/Low this week and I can add my thoughts to the mix.  Let me start by saying I am absolutely the last person who should be reviewing a spinner.  I believe the only spinner game I've ever played for real is TRON, and that was 20 years go.  That being said, I choose the Turbo Twist based on its tiny foot print and it's claims of being high resolution (also, the talk of the Apache grind had me concerned but as we've discussed in this thread this may be a non-issue at this point).  Digging into the threads and learning about the how different arcade games used different wheels in their spinners, and that some had more "teeth" than others and therefore requires higher resolution to emulate, I can see real value in having the highest resolution spinner available.  Ultimately it will allow for more flexibility, even if the games that actually need it are few in number.

This is the first product I've ordered from GGG, and man was it refreshing to actually get a sheet of instructions describing how to install it.  For a newb like me, this is invaluable and keeps me from spending hours pouring over the vendor's site and these forums to figure out how to make stuff work. 

I am in an extended prototyping phase of my controls, so I only have the spinner mounted in a cardboard box right now.  And like I said, I have very little experience with spinners, but man, is this thing smooth.  It feels really, really nice.  Being high resolution, I had to dial MAME's sensitivity way down for most of the games, but after some tweaking it felt spectacular with every game that I tried.  Also, the stainless steel knob has a weight to it that just feels bling.  Unfortunately, I can't comment too much on the push/pull part of it because 1.  I suck at Discs of Tron and haven't gotten to the levels where you use it, and 2.  The cardboard box I have my controls in flexes when I push and pull the spinner, making it very uncomfortable to use.  I'm going to need to get it mounted in wood before I can really make a judgement on how it feels.  It seems to be working just fine though. 

That's about all I have to offer at this point.  For how negative this thread has gotten, I don't want to sit here and gush all over it, and I can't compare it to any other spinner at all, but I'm really satisfied with it so far.

[shmokes]

I'm afraid that's your issue, not mine.

I'm afraid I don't own GGG, so the opposite is true.  Conflict of interest.  You have one. 

You have one whether you allow it to interfere with your posts here or not.  I know that you understand the concept and apply it to anything else in your life -- seeking the most disinterested, unbiased information sources possible, as opposed to, say, Fox News, for example, or reading a videogame review from IGN or 1up as opposed to believing what the game's publisher has to say about it.  It's so blatantly obvious that I refuse to even argue it with you.  If you want to pretend that it doesn't apply (absurd), whatever, you can just win.  If you want to pretend that your comments are unaffected by your pecuniary interests (equally absurd), whatever, you can win that one too.  It's just too stupid a thing to even debate with anything other than a roll of the eyes.  So that's all you'll get from me.   

[RandyT]

It's just too stupid a thing to even debate with anything other than a roll of the eyes.  So that's all you'll get from me.   

What is stupid is to pretend that every concept exists alone in a vacuum.  History is what defines credibility, not sole circumstance.  No attorney in his right mind would make an argument like the one above without something very specific to show that it indeed applies to a given situation.  Something you've yet to do.

And FWIW, I just dropped ~5K, in this economy no less, to have a run of a very special retro item produced that maybe only a handful of folks will be interested in, while I continue to drive an 8-year old vehicle. 

Please stop pretending you know me.

RandyT

[Tim N.]

We should almost start another thread here so we can have one that's actually comparing the spinners, and one that debates the direct roll that vendors should take in the community.  I think both could be informative threads, but this one is supposed to be about the spinners... so lets get back to it.

So, I got my Turbo Twist High/Low this week and I can add my thoughts to the mix.  Let me start by saying I am absolutely the last person who should be reviewing a spinner.  I believe the only spinner game I've ever played for real is TRON, and that was 20 years go.  That being said, I choose the Turbo Twist based on its tiny foot print and it's claims of being high resolution (also, the talk of the Apache grind had me concerned but as we've discussed in this thread this may be a non-issue at this point).  Digging into the threads and learning about the how different arcade games used different wheels in their spinners, and that some had more "teeth" than others and therefore requires higher resolution to emulate, I can see real value in having the highest resolution spinner available.  Ultimately it will allow for more flexibility, even if the games that actually need it are few in number.

This is the first product I've ordered from GGG, and man was it refreshing to actually get a sheet of instructions describing how to install it.  For a newb like me, this is invaluable and keeps me from spending hours pouring over the vendor's site and these forums to figure out how to make stuff work. 

I am in an extended prototyping phase of my controls, so I only have the spinner mounted in a cardboard box right now.  And like I said, I have very little experience with spinners, but man, is this thing smooth.  It feels really, really nice.  Being high resolution, I had to dial MAME's sensitivity way down for most of the games, but after some tweaking it felt spectacular with every game that I tried.  Also, the stainless steel knob has a weight to it that just feels bling.  Unfortunately, I can't comment too much on the push/pull part of it because 1.  I suck at Discs of Tron and haven't gotten to the levels where you use it, and 2.  The cardboard box I have my controls in flexes when I push and pull the spinner, making it very uncomfortable to use.  I'm going to need to get it mounted in wood before I can really make a judgement on how it feels.  It seems to be working just fine though. 

That's about all I have to offer at this point.  For how negative this thread has gotten, I don't want to sit here and gush all over it, and I can't compare it to any other spinner at all, but I'm really satisfied with it so far.

If Randy were to send me a TTHL, I would be more than happy to compare it with my Apache I just installed. I have absolutely no dog in this fight. I can mount it in an existing button hole right next to my Apache and do an absolute side by side. Keep in mind, I probably fall under his "not very discriminate" category in regards to gameplay, but having one next to the other will make me very discriminate very quickly. If people wanted to give me exactly what they are looking for in regards to the review I could cover all the bases rather easily. Specifics would be needed though in regards to particular gameplay (Tron, Forgotten Worlds, etc.), but I could definitely cover every other base in regards to feel, build quality, specs, etc....

... Now I know I must sound like a free handout, but I am absolutely not. Am I willing to pay for one outright? No... not at this point as my control panel is finished and I am not really excited about expanding a hole through the current artwork to accomodate the TTHL in replacement of the Apache. Honestly I only purchased the Apache initially as I designed and drilled my panel for a Tornado and was unaware they were diificult to find. If for some reason I found the urge to have dual spinners an absolute necessity (after installing the TTHL next to the Apache), then I would absolutely pay for one outright. At this point though, I would be more than willing to pay for shipping each way to test out the TTHL, and give a full write-up with photos.

... Do I expect Randy to take me up on this? Absolutely not.... He has no obligation, he knows he makes a great product and his reputation and work speak for themselves. I am also a virtual no-one on this board as I have only been a long time lurker and short time poster. I have no reputation as being a "professional" in regards to controls, as I have no reputation on this board at all, other than the guy "Who made the kick as Multi-Pin project".... I am serious though in regards to posting an unbiased review, and I am slowly working on documenting my mame projects (I have done over a dozen now) on my website and then posting them here for review as well....

... Just my two cents.... Tim

[Tim N.]

Oops.... I forgot that he doesn't use a button hole design, that is Ultimarc's... Depending on the mounting specs, I am still very willing to do this as the reality is that I would mount it, be dissapointed with any holes it may leave in my control panel, and just purchase it outright

[RayB]

Now, do you understand why I recommended just searching? 

[RandyT]

Oops.... I forgot that he doesn't use a button hole design, that is Ultimarc's... Depending on the mounting specs, I am still very willing to do this as the reality is that I would mount it, be dissapointed with any holes it may leave in my control panel, and just purchase it outright

No, that's GGG's (Patent pending )  First, and still used with our TurboTwist2 spinner.  The TTHL mounting is more involved, but nearly as small a footprint. 

RandyT

[Tim N.]

Oops.... I forgot that he doesn't use a button hole design, that is Ultimarc's... Depending on the mounting specs, I am still very willing to do this as the reality is that I would mount it, be dissapointed with any holes it may leave in my control panel, and just purchase it outright

No, that's GGG's .  First, and still used with our TurboTwist2 spinner.  The TTHL mounting is more involved, but nearly as small a footprint. 

RandyT

... Thanks, all these spinners are making my thoughts spin...

[shmokes]

No attorney in his right mind would make an argument like the one above without something very specific to show that it indeed applies to a given situation. 

Heh . . . you at least got me on my claim that I wouldn't respond.  The attorney thing was just irresistible.  

Once again, you're wrong.  Attorneys can and must operate on presumptions like this all the time.  For example, if your attorney prepares a will for you and you want to reward her lifelong service to you by leaving her something in the will, the gift fails automatically because of the presumption of fraud or undue influence.  The conflict of interest creates the presumption that the gift is suspect.  If a person confesses to a crime, that confession CANNOT be introduced into evidence against his alleged partners in crime because we operate on the presumption that he has a conflict of interest (mitigating his own punishment by cooperating with police or simply falsely exaggerating the role played by others while minimizing his own).  We simply presume that the evidence is not credible.

And, of course, there's just real life.  As I said before, when T-Mobile's CEO says that T-Mobile's is the most reliable service you don't need to research everything the guy has said to see how well it comports with the truth.  You just take it for what it's worth -- not that much.  His conflict of interest makes his statements presumptively unreliable.  

The primary difference between the T-Mobile CEO and you is that when he talks about his competitors you don't get the subtle impression that he'd like nothing more than for them and their families to be crushed by a meteor.  

[RandyT]

Once again, you're wrong.  Attorneys can and must operate on presumptions like this all the time.

A presumption is just that until you have evidence to corroborate it.  You still haven't shown that, and until you do, you can talk around the words all you like.  It isn't making your case 

BTW, can we talk about spinners now?

RandyT

[shmokes]

A presumption is just that until you have evidence to corroborate it.  You still haven't shown that, and until you do, you can talk around the words all you like.  It isn't making your case 

Sigh . . . once again, you are wrong, Randy.  Perhaps you're thinking of an assumption which is not necessarily the same thing as a presumption.  At best a presumption stands until you have evidence to disprove it.  Take the supposed "presumption of innocence" for example.  You don't have to prove your innocence to be considered innocent.  The other person has to prove your guilt.

In fact, though, many presumptions are irrebuttable, meaning that the presumption is so strong that the court won't even allow any evidence on the matter to prove or disprove the issue.  The gift-to-will-drafting-lawyer is one of those, I think.

So, at best, the presumption of unreliability created by your conflict of interest shifts the burden of proof to you to prove that you do not allow the opinions you express to be affected by your financial interest in your products.  Realistically, though, the presumption simply has to stand because that's a burden you couldn't possibly carry.

[isucamper]

And FWIW, I just dropped ~5K, in this economy no less, to have a run of a very special retro item produced that maybe only a handful of folks will be interested in, while I continue to drive an 8-year old vehicle. 

Please let this be a run of 25 inch vector monitors.

please please please please

[RandyT]

So, at best, the presumption of unreliability created by your conflict of interest shifts the burden of proof to you to prove that you do not allow the opinions you express to be affected by your financial interest in your products.  Realistically, though, the presumption simply has to stand because that's a burden you couldn't possibly carry.

And that's where you are wrong.   That's why I said that you only need to look here for evidence to the contrary.  Once again, you are taking some very specific examples and attempting to use them as a broad brush.  If you presumed someone was guilty of something and had no evidence to support it,  and went before a judge with a presumption as weak as the one you are trying to attach to me, then you would be laughed out of the room.  And deep down, regardless of all of your verbal thrusting and parrying, you know it.

By your logic, no-one should ever believe a word you say.  This is a forum you spend a lot of time on and have been part of for years.  Yet you seem to have less interest in arcade controls than getting into mindless, combative arguments, having not built a panel for yourself (unless having done so only very recently) and have seemingly gleaned little information for your time here.  With most of your arguments degenerating into loosely applied legalese, which is a direct result of your current studies.  Therefore, one could quite easily presume that you only frequent here for the "practice" in making your legal cases, and that you argue solely for the sake of argument, rather than to present good information to your readers.

But I know that it isn't entirely true, because of your history here.  Now feel free to offer me the same consideration    BTW, I'm flattered that you thought to compare me to the CEO of T-mobil.   

And FWIW, I just dropped ~5K, in this economy no less, to have a run of a very special retro item produced that maybe only a handful of folks will be interested in, while I continue to drive an 8-year old vehicle. 

Please let this be a run of 25 inch vector monitors.

I'm afraid that would be a very short run.  My pockets aren't deep enough to bring those back to life, unfortunately.  I don't want to give away too much, but there have been a few attempts to make these parts in the past, some with more success than others, but none as comprehensive as this.  You will be able to consider these  "Old New Stock".

RandyT

[shmokes]

Ugh . . . this legal metaphor is getting out of control.  Randy, you aren't being charged with a crime.  You don't get a presumption of innocence.  Your conflict of interest gives what you say a presumption of ulterior motive.  The point is only that a presumption means a starting point.  If you presume something you treat that fact as established unless proven otherwise.  You don't need additional evidence to prove a presumption because by definition you presume that it's true.  We presume that the sun will come up tomorrow.  If someone says that it won't, people continue to hold the presumption that it will unless provided with convincing evidence to the contrary.  That's what a presumption is.

BTW, I've built three panels.

[RandyT]

Ugh . . . this legal metaphor is getting out of control.

Fine, then stop making stupid assumptions about my motives when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.  Better?


RandyT

[shmokes]

Seriously . . . don't be absurd.  The evidence is that you have a financial stake in what people think of your products.  Approaching retailers in any other way is naive, and you know you do exactly the same thing in your own life.  I don't have anything against the CEO of T-mobile and I can't imagine he'd take what I said in this thread personally.  It's just common sense.  Why do you suppose critics exist?  Why do you suppose there is even a market for something like RetroBlast?  Gimme a break.  Get over yourself.

[RandyT]

Seriously . . . don't be absurd.  The evidence is that you have a financial stake in what people think of your products. 

There is more to life than money.  To believe that it is a primary motivator in the life of all individuals is very lawyerly of you

RandyT

[shmokes]

To believe that it is probably a primary significant motivator in the life of all most individuals is very lawyerly of you realistic

Fixt.   

[batdive]

Well this was an interesting/informational thread up to the point of the flame wars. 

[Ummon]

Randy doesn't have an economic angle on this. He has an emotional one. Most people do in something or other.

[shmokes]

Randy doesn't have an economic angle on this.

Oh . . . Randy's giving his spinners away for free now?  Why didn't somebody say so?  Sign me up!   

[TOK]

Randy, Shmokes gets you with the same rope a dope in every thread. 

[RandyT]

Randy, Shmokes gets you with the same rope a dope in every thread. 

Yeah, apparently he has little else he finds joy in

[RandyT]

Oh . . . Randy's giving his spinners away for free now?  Why didn't somebody say so?  Sign me up!   

In all honesty, shmokes, the TTHL was a huge investment in design time and special precision machined parts.  It will be quite some time before I see any return on this item, if ever, due to the very niche nature of the product.  I knew this going into it, so I'm not complaining, but it is currently a big net minus to my business.  It was done primarily to "give something back" to the community, by filling a void that, IMHO, was not being adequately addressed.

So you can think what you want.  But you really have no clue in this instance.

RandyT

[shmokes]

You're missing the point.  I'm not insulting you.  There's nothing wrong with running a business.  There's nothing wrong with making profits.  There's nothing wrong with trying to steer customers to your product.  Maybe you'll make a profit on the TTHL, maybe you'll barely break even, maybe you'll take a hit on it.  It's irrelevant.  I'm not saying that you're a sleazy guy.  I'm saying that regardless of whether you will ever recoup your investment in TTHL, you have a substantial interest in my choosing your product over your competitor's.  And that's fine.  I love it.  And if you put the product out there thinking that there was a good chance you'd never turn a profit on it, and almost no chance you'd ever make very much money off it,  ---smurfing--- awesome, man.  Thanks.  You're a great guy, and a wonderful asset to the community.

But it doesn't change anything.  You still have the same financial interest in your products in general, and specifically in the TTHL.  And that's fine.  If it's any consolation I'll take anything bad that Apache or Ultimarc has to say about you with EXACTLY the same grain of salt.  You see that. 

[RandyT]

Maybe you'll make a profit on the TTHL, maybe you'll barely break even, maybe you'll take a hit on it.  It's irrelevant. 

No, I'm afraid it's not.  You have been speaking this entire time about motivation.  No-one who is is motivated only by profit throws money to the wind, and this is the reason you don't see more obscure devices being brought back to life.  IOW, "there ain't no money in it", so there must be some other reason to do it. 

What you say is true in general terms, but to snap to judgment based on simple circumstance is frankly just another form of prejudice.

RandyT

[RayB]

Randy, I get Shmokes point loud and clear. I don't know why you don't. He says that no matter how honest or factual a person is, their opinion will still get scrutinized or assumed to possibly be biased if the person with the opinion has a vested interest in the thing they are talking about. How hard is that to understand? It's not an accusation, it's human nature.

[RandyT]

Randy, I get Shmokes point loud and clear. I don't know why you don't. He says that no matter how honest or factual a person is, their opinion will still get scrutinized or assumed to possibly be biased if the person with the opinion has a vested interest in the thing they are talking about. How hard is that to understand? It's not an accusation, it's human nature.

Yes, I do get it.  Said so in the last post. 

You can suspect it if you like, but if you are going to attach that kind of sentiment to an individual, you might want to have something to back it up.  Shilling one's own products, defending inaccurate technological claims and downright lying about a products capabilities would be good examples of why someone should be distrustful of a vendor.  Merely being the inventor / provider of the product is not.

I mean, when your cable company tells you they are all-digital and provide better service than your antenna can, do you automatically distrust the statement because they provide the service?

We are discussing quantifiable facts, not simple statements like X is better than Y.  You don't need to rely on trust, as you can test these claims for yourself (quite simply, in fact.)  They do not exist in some ethereal place where only the inventor can see them, rather they are in plain view if you take the time to look.  You can't just arbitrarily discount information of this nature because you think someone might have a motive to lie.

One's credibility, which is what shmokes stated I had none of, is directly linked to one's reputation.  I am merely defending mine.

RandyT

[TPB]

shmokes, how many pieces of advice are you offering to Randy ?

I get your point about the owner of a business having a vested interest in plugging their own products.  But are you suggesting that Randy should refrain from posting altogether ?

the inventor sucks as public relations.

If Randy employed a PR spokesman, that person would have the same "vested interest" as himself, in plugging his employer's products.  So evidently, this piece of advice has no connection to that argument.

You mention above, that you weren't insulting Randy, but I can see how it could be interpreted this way.

Maybe Randy could do with a PR face (couldn't we all), but that's his own personal decision, it's not something that needs to be forced down his throat.

[TPB]

Returning to the thread's topic ...

The OP has made his decision.

He's gone for the TT-HL.

TurboTwist High-Low Spinner

[shmokes]

shmokes, how many pieces of advice are you offering to Randy ?

Two, I suppose. 

The discussion about bias and vested interests is a digression and it is in that discussion that I said I was not insulting Randy.  And I wasn't.  I didn't mean it as an insult at all, and it is strange for him to take it as an insult.  Randy wants to make a profit on the TTHL.  If that's not possible, he wants to break even.  If that's not possible, he'd like to lose as little money as possible on it.  I didn't say that money is his only interest in making the TTHL, but it is an interest even if it is simply a desire to lose as little of it as possible.  Randy would LOVE it if somebody placed an order tomorrow for 1000 TTHL spinners.  RetroBlast, on the other hand, would not care in the slightest whether somebody places an order tomorrow for 1000 TTHL spinners.  I'm sorry, Randy, but there simply is a difference there. 

On the larger question of public relations, it's reasonable to take my comment (that he sucks at it) as an insult.  I mean it as criticism, though, not an insult.  He really does suck at it quite badly, and it cuts into his bottom line, IMO.  He can do what he wants with my criticisim: take it as an insult and resent me for it, go indifferent and just ignore it, or accept the criticism and try to improve.  Makes no difference to me.  I'm over it.   

[Visitor Q]

Returning to the thread's topic ...

The OP has made his decision.

He's gone for the TT-HL.

TurboTwist High-Low Spinner

That is correct; I guess I bought into the whole high res. thing, smaller form factor and no grinding. While the Apache does look good and has reviewed well, another deciding factor was Scott from Mameroom (who is handling most of my build) is a customer of Randy’s so it was just easier to obtain.

In the end after reading over everything, it seemed like to me that either one was a good choice as far as a solid product.