Push/ Pull Spinners

[Visitor Q]

I was all set to order the Apache Blackhawk Spinner (http://www.apachecontrols.com/) when I came across this guy here:

Turbo Twist High-Low

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=86&products_id=311

I have read good reviews on the Blackhawk but this is the first I have seen the other.

Can anyone tell me what one is newer as they both claim to be the only push/ pull spinner out there and on top of that, what one is better?

Thanks.

[RayB]

Click this link here: LINK

[Visitor Q]

Click this link here: LINK

That link redirects me to this page.

[abzman2000]

well it redirects ME to the search function so this is probably a not-very-subtule attempt to tell you that this information already exists on this forum somewhere, and he would rather you found it yourself, or simply wants to remind you to search things before posting. 

[Visitor Q]

Maybe RayB could have link me to those posts rather than the search function or not even replied at all? 

Maybe both of you skipped over the part where I said "I have read good reviews on the Blackhawk". 

[Bender]

I have both and think they are both very good products and very well made, I don't think you'll be disappointed with either

for me the Apache has little better fell overall (more classic arcade) and a longer free spin time but it is pretty big

the GGG spiner is much smaller and I might be using because of that feature in an application where I have very limited space. I think it would have a better free spin time if Randy built in the ability to add a weight on the bottom, but as it is now there isn't enough room on the end of the shaft to add one

[Visitor Q]

I have both and think they are both very good products and very well made, I don't think you'll be disappointed with either

for me the Apache has little better fell overall (more classic arcade) and a longer free spin time but it is pretty big

the GGG spiner is much smaller and I might be using because of that feature in an application where I have very limited space. I think it would have a better free spin time if Randy built in the ability to add a weight on the bottom, but as it is now there isn't enough room on the end of the shaft to add one

Thank you for your reply.

[CheffoJeffo]

To answer one of your questions, the TTHL is the newer spinner and claims to be the only high resolution push-pull spinner on the market (emphasis same as on the GGG site). The Blackhawk page is just out of date with their claim (they were the only option for a long while, but they are no longer the only game in town).

I have not used either unit, but if I was looking for a push-pull spinner and wanted to play Arkanoid or other game requiring higher resolution, I'd probably choose the TTHL based on the various discussions on the topic.

[Visitor Q]

Higher resolution from a spinner, does that even make sense?

[Bender]

Higher resolution from a spinner, does that even make sense?

yes

But I have to turn the sensitivity way down to even use the TTHL
so I'd trade the better feel for a higher resolution that isn't useful for gameing

[CheffoJeffo]

Higher resolution from a spinner, does that even make sense?

At this point, I recommend that you RayB's advice ...

[Visitor Q]

I found no reviews on the Turbo Twist HL only on the one from Blackhawk, that is one of the reason I posted this thread.

[CheffoJeffo]

No, but you don't know about the role resolution plays so should probably research it before making a decision.

Some examples:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70380.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83297.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82763.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82447.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69935.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68291.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64858.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63883.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63350.0

Can you hear me now ?

 

[erictrumpet]

The Apache is the best piece of arcade gear I have in my cabinet! Built like a tank, works great, absolutely commercial-grade. I don't get that impression with any GGG products, but they seem to have a following here on these boards with hobbyists. My vote: Apache Blackhawk all the way. You won't be disappointed. And Dave at Apache is terrific when it comes to customer service.

Eric.

[RayB]

The threads that discuss spinners and Groovy Game Gear products tend to get REALLY long. Randy (the owner, operator, founder and inventor at Groovy Game Gear) posts regularly and with much informative detail. I figured it's best to direct you to read what's already been posted, than to expect history to be re-written here.

The maker of the Apache spinner also posts here, usually in the same threads mentioned above.
 

[shmokes]

I'm not usually a fan of Randy's joysticks or spinner knobs.  I've never used any of them . . . I just mean that I don't like the design.  I don't like that bat/ball hybrid stick and I've just never liked his spinner knobs as much as the competition.  It's completely subjective of course . . . I just don't typically go for his style.  But I'll be damned if the knob on that up/down spinner isn't a bloody work of art.  That is hands down, unquestionably the greatest spinner knob ever created in the history of the universe. 

Strangely I can't attach a picture even though it's only 50k.  Must be something wrong with the site at the moment.  You'll just have to click the link and scroll down a little to see it. 

[Visitor Q]

I'll take time and read the liniks posted above and report back with more questions, I'm sure I will have them. 

[isucamper]

I just ordered the Turbo Twist HL a few days ago.  I chose it because it's higher resolution means it will be able to play games like Arkanoid (which require a higher resolution/precision) more authentically.  Also, in some of the threads, people have stated that spinning the Blackhawk while it's pushed results in a grinding noise.  Probably not a big deal (not sure if gameplay would actually lead me to doing this), but it made me hesitant none the less.

Also, I understand why the regulars on this board might get annoyed when someone asks a question on the main page that has already been asked a million times... but way too often the initial response to any question on here is a snarky reply linking the search function.  Even when (such is the case with this thread) the OP is asking a unique question.  I've kept my eye on the spinner threads, and I know that there's never been an in-depth comparision between the two push/pull spinners on the market, so this thread could definitely offer something new to the database.

[Dazz]

I recently got a TT2 and the blue spinner knob, but I was looking at the Push/Pull spinner.  I ended up going with the TT2 instead as there really aren't very many games that require a push/pull and for the money I couldn't justify it right now.

BTW - the knobs on the TT2 feel cheap.  I think the blue one that I purchased additionally was made of plastic with a metal insert.  It just felt cheap when trying to use it...  I thankfully had my good ol Oscar laying around that had the engraved MAME spinner knob on it.  It fits the TT2 perfectly and feels much much much better.  I really wish I wouldn't have spent the extra on the different knob...

[Visitor Q]

Hey Dazz.

Yeah the push and pull it not really used for too many games but it is just one more feature that is nice to have. I'm sure you could find ways to incorporate it into games that may not even use it, if that makes sense.

[shmokes]

It seems strange that Randy doesn't make that beautiful spinner knob that comes with the up/down spinner available as an accessory for the TT2. 

[Visitor Q]

So far it seems like the Apache Blackhawk Spinner is the best choice from what I am reading. GGG will be getting a lot of my $$$ though, I am ordering LED stuff from them amoung other things. 

[Visitor Q]

No, but you don't know about the role resolution plays so should probably research it before making a decision.

Some examples:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70380.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83297.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82763.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82447.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69935.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68291.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64858.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63883.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63350.0

Can you hear me now ?

 

A few of these links are ok but they do not really touch on the difference between the two spinners I asked about, infact some most of them don't even talk about either of them at all.

[CheffoJeffo]

Those threads talked about spinner resolution, which was what I was suggesting that you should research after you wondered how the term high resolution could be applied to a spinner.

If you are going to choose between those two spinners, the biggest difference in my book is the issue of resolution and you should have at least *some* idea as to whether or not that issue is relevant for you before making a decision.

[Visitor Q]

After reading this review, it would seem that the one from Blackhawk is an excellent choice.

http://www.retroblast.com/20060704171/Hardware/RetroBlast-Review-The-Blackhawk-Spinner-by-Apache-Controls.php

[Hoopz]

Are you planning on playing Arkanoid or any spinner games that require a high resolution?

[Tim N.]

After reading this review, it would seem that the one from Blackhawk is an excellent choice.

http://www.retroblast.com/20060704171/Hardware/RetroBlast-Review-The-Blackhawk-Spinner-by-Apache-Controls.php

The Blackhawk is an excellent choice. Ironically I was just talking to Randy yesterday about his push/pull spinner as I had been out of the mame loop for about a year while I finished my multipin project. It sounds as though Randy's (GGG) push/pull is a phenomenal choice as well. I have had the Blackhawk for two weeks now (wasn't aware the GGG was actually in production when I purchased) and have nothing but good things to say about it. If I were to nitpick the only two things would be the large footprint it requires, and the"grinding" noise. And even that noise isn't really grinding, but a slight rubbing sound as the metal disc rotates while in contact with the plastic microswitch actuator(only when push/pull not just rotating). I had been a Slikstik user for many years and my most recent cabinet, it was difficult to find a tornado anywhere. I have to say that the Apache feels really good. I haven't played all of the spinner games yet, but the ones I have played, played well.

I think both products are an excellent choice regardless, and that both vendors feel that they have the best product on the market (as they should, because they both seem to be really good)......In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

[Visitor Q]

Are you planning on playing Arkanoid or any spinner games that require a high resolution?

I want to use this for all mame games that use a spinner.

[Hoopz]

In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

I don't think this is the case.  They both are named David but the owner of Apache Controls posts under apachecontrols.  I think whynotpizza is a member like us (non vendor).  

[Visitor Q]

After reading this review, it would seem that the one from Blackhawk is an excellent choice.

http://www.retroblast.com/20060704171/Hardware/RetroBlast-Review-The-Blackhawk-Spinner-by-Apache-Controls.php

The Blackhawk is an excellent choice. Ironically I was just talking to Randy yesterday about his push/pull spinner as I had been out of the mame loop for about a year while I finished my multipin project. It sounds as though Randy's (GGG) push/pull is a phenomenal choice as well. I have had the Blackhawk for two weeks now (wasn't aware the GGG was actually in production when I purchased) and have nothing but good things to say about it. If I were to nitpick the only two things would be the large footprint it requires, and the"grinding" noise. And even that noise isn't really grinding, but a slight rubbing sound as the metal disc rotates while in contact with the plastic microswitch actuator(only when push/pull not just rotating). I had been a Slikstik user for many years and my most recent cabinet, it was difficult to find a tornado anywhere. I have to say that the Apache feels really good. I haven't played all of the spinner games yet, but the ones I have played, played well.

I think both products are an excellent choice regardless, and that both vendors feel that they have the best product on the market (as they should, because they both seem to be really good)......In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

Good info., I will try to keep that all in mind.

So with what you said, do you think you would go back and choose the TT HL over the Apache now? I know you sauid you are very happy with it and the reviews that I posted seems very positive.

I am just trying to buy the very best and when you are spending over 100 on a spinner, I think that is not too much to ask.

[Visitor Q]

In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

I don't think this is the case.  They both are named David but the owner of Apache Controls posts under apachecontrols.  I think whynotpizza is a member like us (non vendor).  

Yeah, I saw that as well but you never know...

Well I invite any of those owners to tell me why I should buy their product over the other.

[Hoopz]

Are you planning on playing Arkanoid or any spinner games that require a high resolution?

I want to use this for all mame games that use a spinner.

I understand that.  I think the point that you are missing and that multiple people are trying to make is that the spinner resolution does matter depending on the games you want to play (spinner games played with the spinner).  RandyT's spinner has a higher resolution than the Apache spinner and it directly relates to how you play some games (spinner games with the spinner).  It doesn't affect ALL games (spinner games with the spinner) though.  

That's why I specifically asked about Arkanoid (spinner game that can be played with a spinner).  Most every thread talking about this game (spinner game played with a spinner) discusses the need for a high resolution spinner and what happens when you play it (it being Arkanoid which is a spinner game played with a spinner) without a high resolution spinner.

I don't have a dog in this fight (Michael Vick!  ) so I don't have a preference on which one you use.  However, I do think it's a good idea that you understand the differences between the two before deciding on one.  The question of which is better is highly subjective in terms of feel, sound, playing etc as the spinners share many attributes.  Looking at the differences between the two may help you decide which to purchase.

[Tim N.]

In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

I don't think this is the case.  They both are named David but the owner of Apache Controls posts under apachecontrols.  I think whynotpizza is a member like us (non vendor).  

Trust me... it IS the case... That being said, David seems to be a great guy and shouldn't need to pump product "third party"

[Visitor Q]

Are you planning on playing Arkanoid or any spinner games that require a high resolution?

I want to use this for all mame games that use a spinner.

I understand that.  I think the point that you are missing and that multiple people are trying to make is that the spinner resolution does matter depending on the games you want to play (spinner games played with the spinner).  RandyT's spinner has a higher resolution than the Apache spinner and it directly relates to how you play some games (spinner games with the spinner).  It doesn't affect ALL games (spinner games with the spinner) though.  

That's why I specifically asked about Arkanoid (spinner game that can be played with a spinner).  Most every thread talking about this game (spinner game played with a spinner) discusses the need for a high resolution spinner and what happens when you play it (it being Arkanoid which is a spinner game played with a spinner) without a high resolution spinner.

I don't have a dog in this fight (Michael Vick!  ) so I don't have a preference on which one you use.  However, I do think it's a good idea that you understand the differences between the two before deciding on one.  The question of which is better is highly subjective in terms of feel, sound, playing etc as the spinners share many attributes.  Looking at the differences between the two may help you decide which to purchase.

Well RetroBlast! seems like they know what they are talking about and here is some highlights from that review.

"Right out of the box it worked perfectly with every MAME game I threw at it, and even better, the sensitivity and responsiveness of the spinner felt spot-on. I didn’t have to adjust a single game, a rarity when I’ve done spinner testing. The spinner is a 48-tooth design, which means that it theoretically has less sensitivity than some of the other spinners on the market, but I saw nothing during gameplay that indicated this. In fact, I got some of my highest scores on Tempest ever with this spinner."

"One humorous thing I saw was with this spinner was what I would call the first "perfect backspin" that I have ever seen in spinner testing. Basically, when you really crank up MAME's spinner sensitivity settings, the Blackhawk, like all other spinners, will eventually exhibit backspin. However, in the case of the Blackhawk, the backspin was perfectly consistent: spin left, the cursor will go right. Spin right, the cursor goes left. No stopping, back-tracking, or stuttering — it just reversed orientation. A perfect backspin, so to speak."

I am just going on here by what I have read so by all means if the above does not sound right or that is not a trusted site, please let me know.

[Tim N.]

After reading this review, it would seem that the one from Blackhawk is an excellent choice.

http://www.retroblast.com/20060704171/Hardware/RetroBlast-Review-The-Blackhawk-Spinner-by-Apache-Controls.php

The Blackhawk is an excellent choice. Ironically I was just talking to Randy yesterday about his push/pull spinner as I had been out of the mame loop for about a year while I finished my multipin project. It sounds as though Randy's (GGG) push/pull is a phenomenal choice as well. I have had the Blackhawk for two weeks now (wasn't aware the GGG was actually in production when I purchased) and have nothing but good things to say about it. If I were to nitpick the only two things would be the large footprint it requires, and the"grinding" noise. And even that noise isn't really grinding, but a slight rubbing sound as the metal disc rotates while in contact with the plastic microswitch actuator(only when push/pull not just rotating). I had been a Slikstik user for many years and my most recent cabinet, it was difficult to find a tornado anywhere. I have to say that the Apache feels really good. I haven't played all of the spinner games yet, but the ones I have played, played well.

I think both products are an excellent choice regardless, and that both vendors feel that they have the best product on the market (as they should, because they both seem to be really good)......In the links provided to you, it is important to note that "whynotpizza" is actually the owner/designer of Apache Controls and his opinion is obviously biased towards his product....

Good info., I will try to keep that all in mind.

So with what you said, do you think you would go back and choose the TT HL over the Apache now? I know you sauid you are very happy with it and the reviews that I posted seems very positive.

I am just trying to buy the very best and when you are spending over 100 on a spinner, I think that is not too much to ask.

I don't know- do you like Ford or Chevy? Do you see what I am getting at... it is a choice you would have to make... I have never used the GGG spinner, so I can't give opinion on that.... If you were asking if I would buy the Apache again.... Yes I would, it feels really good to me and is built solid. Had I bought the GGG push/pull first, I would probably being the same thing- it looks really good.... As far as resolution settings and Arkanoid, my opinion is that I did not grow up a hardcore Arkanoid player to know that the lower resolution feels different than the higher... Honestly, if I loved Arkanoid so much and wanted the authentic feel, I would just buy a dedicated Arkanoid for the price of one of these spinners (Actually picked one-Arkanoid- up for 125.00 and sold it later)... I had the real estate on my control panel for the Apache and it mounted similar to the tornado (I already had the artwork on thinking I was getting a tornado) so it was an easy choice for me as I didn't need to modify my CP at all.....


Here is a pic-

[Visitor Q]

HAH! Neither, I had American cars. 

No, I see what you are saying and all but I just want to try and buy the best. I am trying to determine what makes what the better product here.

[shmokes]

Retroblast is a trusted site.  I can't tell exactly what you are waiting for.  It's not like there is a spinner god who will appear on a beam of light and make your decision for you.  You have everything you need.  There are no bombshells here.  Nobody is going to come in and suddenly reveal that one of the spinners is made partially from the tailbones of starving Ethiopian children.  

They both appear to be solid products.  From what I gather (I haven't used either) the Apache has a better build quality.  The GroovyGameGear one ("GGG") obviously has a smaller footprint.  The GGG has a cooler knob.  The Apache appears to play perfectly in every game right out of the box.  The GGG has a much higher resolution (though the benefits of this appear to be questionable).  The Apache has a longer spin time (though the benefits of this appear to be questionable).

I don't know what else you think you're going to learn.  You're going to be super happy with either of them.  You're going to give yourself ulcers if you agonize over every little thing like this.

[stan2323]

Also, I understand why the regulars on this board might get annoyed when someone asks a question on the main page that has already been asked a million times... but way too often the initial response to any question on here is a snarky reply linking the search function.  Even when (such is the case with this thread) the OP is asking a unique question.  I've kept my eye on the spinner threads, and I know that there's never been an in-depth comparision between the two push/pull spinners on the market, so this thread could definitely offer something new to the database.

I say ask what you need.  I have tried to use the search function a lot to answerer questions and find it usefulness limited.  From my experience it comes up with about 80% non relevant stuff for your search.  People always say read the WIKI.  Well that only helps if it is up to date.  When you looking at something that is 3 or 4 years old I am suspect of its usefulness.  This is especially true of software that may have 3 or 4 newer versions than what is being talked about in the WIKI.   

[Tim N.]

HAH! Neither, I had American cars. 

No, I see what you are saying and all but I just want to try and buy the best. I am trying to determine what makes what the better product here.

Well, they both are pricey... but if I were really torn and wanted to see first hand the authenticity of every spinner game and how it felt, I would honestly buy both of them, try out every single game with both, and then keep the one I liked better... Then sell the one for 20-30 less than you paid (which someone would most likely jump on to save few $$$)..... That way you are only out 20-30 bucks and you then KNOW which you like better....

[Visitor Q]

Retroblast is a trusted site.  I can't tell exactly what you are waiting for.  It's not like there is a spinner god who will appear on a beam of light and make your decision for you.  You have everything you need.  There are no bombshells here.  Nobody is going to come in and suddenly reveal that one of the spinners is made partially from the tailbones of starving Ethiopian children.  

They both appear to be solid products.  From what I gather (I haven't used either) the Apache has a better build quality.  The GroovyGameGear one ("GGG") obviously has a smaller footprint.  The GGG has a cooler knob.  The Apache appears to play perfectly in every game right out of the box.  The GGG has a much higher resolution (though the benefits of this appear to be questionable).  The Apache has a longer spin time (though the benefits of this appear to be questionable).

I don't know what else you think you're going to learn.  You're going to be super happy with either of them.  You're going to give yourself ulcers if you agonize over every little thing like this.

Wait, wait, wait.... There is no spinner god?