Mag-Stik & Happ 49 way versus UltraStik 360

[BrianP]

I am building my first cabinet (newbie alert!   ).  And I am using the  Project Arcade: Build Your Own Arcade Machine book.  Really helpful to have details and explanations on the construction.

So, my question is about joysticks.  The book is a bit out of date when it comes to controls.

I was planning on using a pair of Ulitmarc Mag-Stik (or Mag-Stik Plus) and a single Happ 49 way.  I figured the would get me the best of both worlds.  The Mag-Stick for the 2/4/8 way games and the Happ for 45 degree games and true 49 way games (a la Sinistar).

Then I stumbled across a review for the UltraStik 360.  It sounded like the Ultra can do the 2/4/8 way, 45 degree and the 49 way.  Assuming this is true, I could get away with a pair of Ultras rather than the 3 other joysticks.

But the Ultra is also a digital stick (USB).  Does this mean I couldn't use it with all the emulators (ie keyboard only ones)?  I read somewhere about someone doing a hack where they added microswitches to the Ultra to do keyboard emulators (which is way more work than I want to do).

Perhaps a pair of Mag-Stik and a Ultra rather than the Happ 49 way?

Any opinions and help here would be great.

Thanks!

[Ginsu Victim]

If an emulator is keyboard only, you can use Joy2key with the U360.

As far what the U360 can do, it's pretty much whatever you can draw on a 9x9 grid map. You tell the controls exactly where they should go (or shouldn't!).

[cadmium]

I know Ginsu hates it when I mention this, but the u360 also has digital output using the optional wiring harness. With that you can wire it into an I-Pac like a normal joystick and run it side by side with the analog usb out.

However, I would only do that if you already have an I-PAC lying around or plan on getting one anyway, otherwise it's not worth it since you also loose the ability to wire additional buttons through the u360.

[Ginsu Victim]

I don't hate the mention of it. It has its uses.

[thatitalian]

Go with the U360s! I had mag sticks (it is so funny how newbs go for mag sticks, I went for exactly the same when I started!) and now I am getting (should be expecting delivery tomorrow!) U360s! I have played on them and they are awesome!

[fatfingers]

Another vote for the U360s.  I too had the Mag-stiks, but hated them -- they were too stiff or something.  I love the U360s.

[DaveMMR]

Never used the Mag-stiks myself but I'd just go with a pair of U360s.  Their main selling point is that they eliminate the need for multiple sticks (unless you really wanted rotaries or top-fires).  Although more expensive, you save money on not having to buy specialized joys or a keyboard-encoder. 

[arzoo]

If you go with the u360s, I would also recommend the stiffer spring and circular restrictor plate (which reduces the throw distance). Also, if you plan on under-mounting on a wood panel cp, then you'll most likely need the longer shafts.

[Ginsu Victim]

Agree on the spring and restrictor, but I'm using a 5/8" wood panel w/ 1/8" plexi and the standard shaft with balltops mounted from below. I think the length is fine.

[BrianP]

However, I would only do that if you already have an I-PAC lying around or plan on getting one anyway, otherwise it's not worth it since you also loose the ability to wire additional buttons through the u360.

I was planning to get an iPac for the button layout.  Unless there is a better way to do it (can you tell I know nothing).  Looking at Ultimarc's site, it looks like the wiring harness is used instead of the USB connection?  Correct?  So I can't really run both without changing the cables?

[Ginsu Victim]

The wire harness and USB plug into two different spots.

The Ipac is an excellent product used by MANY of us here. Unless you're planning on having a lot of admin buttons, the wire harness isn't needed if you're getting the Ipac (plus, you can set shifted functions through the Ipac).

[BrianP]

Unless you're planning on having a lot of admin buttons, the wire harness isn't needed if you're getting the Ipac (plus, you can set shifted functions through the Ipac).

So, you would suggest using joy2key rather than getting the wiring harness?

[cadmium]

I was planning to get an iPac for the button layout.  Unless there is a better way to do it (can you tell I know nothing).  Looking at Ultimarc's site, it looks like the wiring harness is used instead of the USB connection?  Correct?  So I can't really run both without changing the cables?

Unless you have a strong need for more buttons, you shouldn't need an I-PAC.

If you have a u360 you can wiring up to 8 buttons to each one using the wiring harness (Ultimarc refers to this as inputmode). The only thing connected to your computer is the usb cable. So:

buttons -> [wiring harness, input mode] -> u360 -> [usb] -> computer

In my case, I already have my whole panel wired through an I-PAC and I'm replacing some happ comps with u360's, so it's easier for my to use the wiring harness to output a digital signal (this is called output mode) to keep me from reconfiguring all of my non-mame emulators (daphne, kaga, nestopia, mess, etc). So:

u360 -> [usb] -> computer
         -> [wiring harness, output mode] -> I-PAC -> computer

But that only makes sense to do because I've already invested in the I-PAC, if i were to do it again I would probably stick with just the u360's  and use the wiring harness in input mode.

Clear as mud?

[BrianP]

If you have a u360 you can wiring up to 8 buttons to each one using the wiring harness (Ultimarc refers to this as inputmode). The only thing connected to your computer is the usb cable. So:

Ah, so using this, I could define 7 buttons for each player and 2 admin buttons?  I assume joy2key will work for the buttons also (for non-USB emulators?)

(this is all starting to make sense now)

[Ginsu Victim]

Supposedly, if you use the harness, the 8th button is shifted, but I've never tested it.

I have too many buttons for the harness to be my main source of buttons (7 buttons, plus start, pause, coin (wired to coin mech), coin (hidden under panel), tab (hidden above marquee), reset (under panel), and F2 (under panel), including several shifted functions).

Plus, you'll have to use joy2key for emulators that don't use gamepad buttons, because that's how windows sees it.

[Ginsu Victim]

edit: nevermind. Read it wrong.

[BrianP]

I have too many buttons for the harness to be my main source of buttons (7 buttons, plus start, pause, coin (wired to coin mech), coin (hidden under panel), tab (hidden above marquee), reset (under panel), and F2 (under panel), including several shifted functions).

I forgot about things like coin, start, etc.  Looks like the harness for an iPac is a good idea....

Combine with a spinner (Ultimarc SpinStik?) which can be wired into the iPac.  Then just figure out the mouse and mouse buttons and I think I an set.

Anyone know if the Ulitmarc Utrack USB interface supports buttons?  I don't see anything on their web page).

[DaveMMR]

Supposedly, if you use the harness, the 8th button is shifted, but I've never tested it.

Yes it is.  I use the harness myself, each one supporting six action buttons, a Start (which doubles as the SHIFT button) and a coin.  On P2's control, I mapped each one of the action buttons to an admin control when P2 START is held down.   I only tell guests about PAUSE and EXIT, but the rest I use for administration.

I can see though, if you have 7 separate action buttons and you still want a dedicated coin button/door plus start, you may need to go with an iPac.  

I forgot about things like coin, start, etc.  Looks like the harness for an iPac is a good idea....

You don't NEED to buy the harness if you're going with an iPac.  You would just use standard wires to hook up the buttons to it.   The harness is only if:

• You want to skip the iPac and attach your buttons to stick as "gamepad buttons" (Input Mode)
• You want to attach the stick itself to the iPac the same way you would a standard 8-way to produce "keystrokes"(Output Mode)

With the latter option, you lose the built-in mapping functionality.

[BrianP]

I forgot about things like coin, start, etc.  Looks like the harness for an iPac is a good idea....

You don't NEED to buy the harness if you're going with an iPac.  You would just use standard wires to hook up the buttons to it.   The harness is only if:

• You want to skip the iPac and attach your buttons to stick as "gamepad buttons" (Input Mode)
• You want to attach the stick itself to the iPac the same way you would a standard 8-way to produce "keystrokes"(Output Mode)

With the latter option, you lose the built-in mapping functionality.

Ahh, I am getting it now.  So the idea would be to use the USB line for the U360s and joy2key for any emulators that can't use a USB joystick.  Then (because I want more admin buttons) use an iPac to wire the buttons.......

[Ginsu Victim]

You don't NEED to buy the harness if you're going with an iPac.  You would just use standard wires to hook up the buttons to it.

Unless he means the minipac, which you pretty much require the wire harness that it uses.

[DaveMMR]

I forgot about things like coin, start, etc.  Looks like the harness for an iPac is a good idea....

You don't NEED to buy the harness if you're going with an iPac.  You would just use standard wires to hook up the buttons to it.   The harness is only if:

• You want to skip the iPac and attach your buttons to stick as "gamepad buttons" (Input Mode)
• You want to attach the stick itself to the iPac the same way you would a standard 8-way to produce "keystrokes"(Output Mode)

With the latter option, you lose the built-in mapping functionality.

Ahh, I am getting it now.  So the idea would be to use the USB line for the U360s and joy2key for any emulators that can't use a USB joystick.  Then (because I want more admin buttons) use an iPac to wire the buttons.......

You can, but remember the Input Mode has a built in Shift Function so you can eschew the Optipac and shift any other action button with Button 8 for secondary functions.  (Which I prefer since it hides the more damaging admin buttons (e.g. ALT) from curious players and gives the panel a cleaner look.  YMMV)

Personally, I need to use Joy2Key very infrequently.   Maybe only for Daphne.   Then again, I only have a handful of emulators.  But it works flawlessly.

You don't NEED to buy the harness if you're going with an iPac.  You would just use standard wires to hook up the buttons to it.

Unless he means the minipac, which you pretty much require the wire harness that it uses.

Yes, but it's not the same as the harness for the U360.    Just to avoid confusion, the U360 harness was what I was referring to. 

[TheShanMan]

Combine with a spinner (Ultimarc SpinStik?) which can be wired into the iPac.  Then just figure out the mouse and mouse buttons and I think I an set.

A spinner will NOT hook up to an ipac. Minipac or optipac, but not ipac.

[BrianP]

Combine with a spinner (Ultimarc SpinStik?) which can be wired into the iPac.  Then just figure out the mouse and mouse buttons and I think I an set.

A spinner will NOT hook up to an ipac. Minipac or optipac, but not ipac.

I misread the Ultimarc web page.  it does say OptiPac, not iPac.  Oops.  Thanks for the correction.

[Ginsu Victim]

You don't NEED to buy the harness if you're going with an iPac.  You would just use standard wires to hook up the buttons to it.

Unless he means the minipac, which you pretty much require the wire harness that it uses.

Yes, but it's not the same as the harness for the U360.    Just to avoid confusion, the U360 harness was what I was referring to. 

Right, which is why I said "the wire harness that IT uses"

[arzoo]

Wow, I already use an iPac and 2 u360's (USB) and you guys have me confused with all this input/output/opti/mini/shift stuff!   

But I think BrianP is correct with his understanding here...

Ahh, I am getting it now.  So the idea would be to use the USB line for the U360s and joy2key for any emulators that can't use a USB joystick.  Then (because I want more admin buttons) use an iPac to wire the buttons.......

[Ginsu Victim]

Yes, he is correct. (Though I don't know why DaveMMR uses Joy2Key for Daphne. It works fine with my U360s)

[BrianP]

I think I have it all figured out now.   Thanks everyone for your help.

(now to figure out trackball/mouse buttons/spinners )

[DaveMMR]

Yes, he is correct. (Though I don't know why DaveMMR uses Joy2Key for Daphne. It works fine with my U360s)

IIRC, I had to use it to exit the game the same as I do in MAME (using P2's controls, shifting one of the main buttons to ESC).  The version of Daphne I used only supports the 1st player game pad and all that admin stuff is mapped to the 2nd player. 

Right, which is why I said "the wire harness that IT uses"

I was overstating the obvious just to prevent any purchasing errors.      Just a little prevention...

[fivslt]

Sorry if I'm deviating from the topic here, but you guys seem knowledgeable, and this is something that I have been wondering for a long time:

How is should the U360 work in output mode? I have mine attached both to ipac and USB. I'd like to get full analog output (no mapping) from USB (since mame does wonderful job of handling the maps internally these days) and, at the same time, my custom 8-way mapping to ipac (for pc games and some other emulators). This way there would be almost no need to reprogram the U360s. But unfortunately I get mapped, "digital" output from the USB too. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong here?

[LLUncoolJ]

I have too many buttons for the harness to be my main source of buttons (7 buttons, plus start, pause, coin (wired to coin mech), coin (hidden under panel), tab (hidden above marquee), reset (under panel), and F2 (under panel), including several shifted functions).

I forgot about things like coin, start, etc.  Looks like the harness for an iPac is a good idea....

Combine with a spinner (Ultimarc SpinStik?) which can be wired into the iPac.  Then just figure out the mouse and mouse buttons and I think I an set.

Anyone know if the Ulitmarc Utrack USB interface supports buttons?  I don't see anything on their web page).

Utrak doesn't support buttons, you will need to go another route. If you don't want to mess around with optipac, you can just get the usb adapter. Same goes for the spinner. I have the SpinTrak and the UTrak, both with usb adapters. I have an ipac that controls my buttons and sticks. I am using a Mag Stick Plus for left and a regulat Mag Stick on the right. The jury is still out on those sticks. They are stiff and I have some issues with the right one playing Robotron (can't always fire non-diagonal shots when I want to). But I don't have a dedicated 4 way, so until someone builds a better mouse trap, I'll stick with them. My panel is 100% Ultimarc components right now...pretty happy for the most part...and the LED's look killer!

[u_rebelscum]

Anyone know if the Ulitmarc Utrack USB interface supports buttons?  I don't see anything on their web page).

Utrak doesn't support buttons...

Are you sure about that?  The USB interface is a preprogrammed U-HID nano.  The nano can do TB + 3 buttons and still have an unused pin.  It can be programmed so it doesn't do buttons, but I'd think it would have buttons.  Andy?

[emerica]

I must be out of my mind but I recently took out my u360 in favor of a mag-stik. I never liked how sloppy the action of the u360 was. I do like the versatility of the u360 and that it is why I bought one but didn't like how they feel. Perhaps I need to get the hard spring or something.

even though the diagonals are annoying at times with the square restrictor on the mag-stik or t-stik, for my personal preference, it doesn't bother me much since I don't play fighters very often.

[zelony]

Having only used the 49-way joysticks I am biased, but, that being said, they are awesome when paired with Groovy Game Gear's GP-Wiz 49 interface.  I have 4 controllers on my showcase and 2 for my cocktail cabinet.  Nothing beats the smooth and quiet operation of the sticks.  Combine that with the digital restriction technology that lets you "convert" the controller from 49-way to 2-way horizontal and every way in between, including diagonol for Qbert, you can't lose.  I have it set up to auto change depending on the game.

Sorry for my commercial for Groovy Game Gear's product, but when compared to the standard microswitch controllers on my daughter's arcade there is no comparison.

I am seriously considering buying spares of both the interfaces and the controllers just to make sure I have them... Once you use these there is no going back!

Jeff