TheShanMan's Defender restoration - New repro wiring harnesses!!!

[TheShanMan]

Yeah, I've been doing exactly that kind of tracing. I got the watchdog circuit disabled (there is a spot where the manual directs you to cut a trace, and then ground a pin) but it's still not booting. I haven't tried actually shorting the reset pin to 5V yet though.

One thing that seems odd to me: as I mentioned previously, my switching PS intermittently makes a fairly high pitched noise. I was just watching my monitor after disabling the watchdog circuit and this is what I saw: Black initially. Then it went solid yellow. Then as I heard the PS make that noise, the video would simultaneously flicker to solid red, but the transition from yellow to red had kind of a garbled look. The changes in the video picture would track as the PS noise came on and off. Could this be an indication of a PS problem? Do switching PS's commonly make very audible, high pitched noise?

I can try to make a video if this isn't descriptive enough to mean anything to you guys.

Yeah, the multi-board is a good backup plan, but if at all possible I'd rather stick with original hardware (in fact I wish it had the original PS).

And Peale, I've been spending a bit of time searching through the RGVAC archives. Finding some similar symptoms, but nothing that has told me definitively what the cause is.

Retro, I'm not at this point yet, but I wonder if you're willing to have a look at my boards as you've done for someone else here? That would be another nice backup plan, though I totally understand if you'd rather not.

Maybe I need to start watching CL for an o-scope! Would you guys consider this to be an essential tool for anyone who's getting into arcade game collecting? Or can you often get by without one?

[Kevin Mullins]

Do you have a CPU you can swap out ?
And you may also want to take a look at any crystals on the boards for damage etc.

[TheShanMan]

No extra CPU. The crystal's case is somewhat rusty (you can kind of see it in the close up picture of the board I posted), and I've already wondered about the clock signal. I wish I had an o-scope to check it! Beyond rust on the case, I'm not sure how I'd check for damage.

[TheShanMan]

Here's a video of what the monitor does in sync with the PS noise, as I described two posts back. I tried to pick up the noise coming from the PS, but it doesn't get picked up in the recording.

Also, this doesn't look exactly as I described before (it seems like it changes every time! ), but you get the idea with the flickering, which is in sync with the noise coming from the PS.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/v/lIn-8hsJN0I[/youtube]

[RetroACTIVE]

Retro, I'm not at this point yet, but I wonder if you're willing to have a look at my boards as you've done for someone else here? That would be another nice backup plan, though I totally understand if you'd rather not.

Not a problem... I'm free right now.. I've got another person's stuff but am waiting on parts... but its not a rush job.

I still think it's a power issue... your switcher looks like poo  (not that its an indication of a problem...but it certainly leaves one to wonder).  Remember the reset circuit uses +12V (unregulated)... but with switcher conversion, you are using the +12V output of your supply.  If the output of your switcher is noisy ... you are going to be SOL... Do you have an extra switcher lying around you could swap out just to be sure?  The DVOM does not give you the complete picture when it comes to the supply voltages... this is where a scope helps.

If you send your boards to me... I can do a complete once over... and upgrade to 4164 if you like.   I have a few spare 4116's kicking around I can pop in there to get it running too (if RAM becomes an issue).  As Peale stated before... the 4164 upgrade is almost a must if you want your Defender to run without issue... Running with the 4116's you will find they will begin to fail here and there and you will be chasing problems until you've replaced them all anyway...

 

[TheShanMan]

Retro, I'm suspecting the PS too, based on the noise that it makes intermittently (but often), and the way the video freaks out when it's making that noise (see video I posted).

I need to run to the auto parts store and get a fiberglass pencil so I can get things cleaned up, but once I do that, assuming that doesn't get me closer to booting up, I may be ready to ship it to you. I don't have another PS, so maybe I could include that with the boards.

I definitely want to make this reliable, so I'm totally up for replacing the ram, assuming it's not some huge expense. I'm also planning to convert to lithium batteries.

When I started this thread I thought it might not be that hard to get it up and running, but at this point this thread has gotten long without a lot of progress - the wheels are spinning but I haven't gotten far. At least I've been learning!

[TheShanMan]

With what I can do in terms of the electronics slowing, I'll turn my attention to other issues:

• CP overlay: it's pulling away from the plywood. I assume it's not a big deal to just peel it back and apply some adhesive so that it lays totally flat again? I've got spray can adhesive that I assume will work well here. The overlay is in excellent condition, btw.
• Coin door: it has some rust, so I'm planning to remove it and clean it up. BTW, it has no coin box. It would be easy enough to make a coin box, but I wonder if there are coin boxes readily available that fit defender?
• Joystick: it has some slop to it, but looking at the joystick, it appears that the leaf mechanism is what provides the springy "return to center". I'm thinking I could just disassemble the joystick and bend those leafs back to make the joystick a little more springy? Currently rather than sitting in the center position it probably sits about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom.
• Marquee light: Defenders don't have marquee lights? I don't see any evidence of there ever being a light in it. If not, that's fine because it would emphasize the minor flaws in the marquee anyway. But if they do normally have a light, then I might just have to get a new one printed from the one on localarcade.com.

[Level42]

The Defender I'm working on definitly  has the Marquee lit. (Apart from the monitor and the sound board the only thing that works ).

Of course it needs to be lit, if you want it to be original. Check the manual if it's drawn there.

I'd prefer _minor_ flaws in artwork over having a repro, let alone being it a inkjet printed one ! If you really want to replace it, look for a better one (try the KLOV forum or the Buy/Sell/Wanted section here, or e-bay) or see if there are any silk-screened repro's.

A switching PSU that whistles is usually not a good thing to happen, and in fact what keeps me from replacing original PSU's (apart from the originality). When switchers go bad, all kind of unpredictable things can happen (like frying your game PCB(s)). Even if you haven't got one around, order a new one anyway as this is probably either very bad already, or in the last stages of it's life.

[TheShanMan]

It doesn't even look like one was ever mounted there, which is why I thought there must not be one by design. Is yours a florescent I assume? The speaker in mine is kind of big so I'm not sure where the light would go. Maybe mounted to the top (I say from memory because I'm too lazy to go take the marquee off)?

Where would I buy a switching PS? Or for that matter, what about an original PS? I'd kind of like to go back to stock as much as possible, but if they're hard to come by or expensive or unreliable or something, then I'd settle for a switcher.

And what's bad about inkjet printed marquees? I'm sure it's just ignorance on my part, but I'm extremely happy with my overlay for my mame cabinet. My marquee isn't horrible but I know I'd be unhappy with it if I put a light behind it. I can't imagine that I wouldn't be happier with an inkjet one. But if I came across a silk screened one or an original that's in great shape, I'd be all for that too. Not sure where to look for silk screen art though.

[RetroACTIVE]

It doesn't even look like one was ever mounted there, which is why I thought there must not be one by design. Is yours a florescent I assume? The speaker in mine is kind of big so I'm not sure where the light would go. Maybe mounted to the top (I say from memory because I'm too lazy to go take the marquee off)?

Oh I'm sure it was there... check for blocking on each side of the cab... The light is mounted on a piece of galvanized steel... You could use anything that would fit and would not obstruct the speaker...

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=65938.msg715079#msg715079

Where would I buy a switching PS? Or for that matter, what about an original PS? I'd kind of like to go back to stock as much as possible, but if they're hard to come by or expensive or unreliable or something, then I'd settle for a switcher.

You can get switchers anywhere... Bob Roberts sells them.  The original power supplies are not unreliable... (contrary to the myth)... its just that most are 28-or-so ish years old and need to be rebuilt.  I think they are pretty affordable (ebay...etc) if you are prepared to do a little soldering.

And what's bad about inkjet printed marquees? I'm sure it's just ignorance on my part, but I'm extremely happy with my overlay for my mame cabinet. My marquee isn't horrible but I know I'd be unhappy with it if I put a light behind it. I can't imagine that I wouldn't be happier with an inkjet one. But if I came across a silk screened one or an original that's in great shape, I'd be all for that too. Not sure where to look for silk screen art though.

If you don't want it lit... then inkjet would be fine I suppose... but if you intend on "restoring" it then you would need to put a light back in the cab... and back-lit inkjet isn't the best.... but it's surely a matter of personal picky-ness.   Personally I'd stick with what you have...

[TheShanMan]

Not much progress today, other than some research on buying options:

• I'm thinking of buying a switcher on the assumption that mine is bad (based on some of my previous posts and responses to them). My thinking is get a switcher to get me past my power problems immediately, but also buy an original linear so I can revert back to stock. But since it will likely need some work, I don't want to just add to my list of problems! So the switcher would be a temporary solution, and it seems like it would be good to have if I'm going to be collecting a half dozen or so games over the next 2 or 3 years. Does this seem logical to you seasoned veterans?
• Since my cab is missing the marquee light, what would you guys recommend? Again, I'd like to go with an original williams light for the purpose of being stock if possible, though I'm not sure if those are easily found (I didn't see anything on ebay, but I might not be using the right search terms). If you guys have any suggested search terms or sites that might have these, let me know.
• No luck finding a fiberglass pencil today - maybe I'll try an auto body paint supply shop rather than an auto parts shop. Might just have to order online, but would prefer not to have the delay.
• Oh, back to the PS for a second - my research is leading me to believe that the coin lights maybe shouldn't be enabled when using a switcher? I definitely want to get the coin lights going, so does that mean I definitely need to go back to linear or what? Do the switchers just not put out enough juice on the 12V line or what's the issue?
• Someone mentioned replacing caps not just for the monitor but for all boards. Are there cap kits available for the other boards or do I just need to buy them individually?

[RetroACTIVE]

The switcher purchase is a fine way to help rule out power problems at the moment... you can decide later if you want to get / rebuild an original supply.

You don't need to go the "original" marquee light route... unless you can find one of course... just get the plain run-o-the-mill under counter florescent fixture... anchor it to either the top of the cab or put it on a board anchored across the two blocking strips that are on the sides of the cab (where the metal plate would go).  Whatever fits...

Well as far as the coin lamps go... you can always change out the incandescent for led... superbriteleds has some red and amber cluster 12V LED bayonet lamps that fit perfect... I did this on my Defender and it looks great... personally I think it looks better than the incandescent.

Bob Roberts sells a cap kit for the sound board... (he's busy with whats left of Gustav right now.. but will be back).  As far as the other (ROM/CPU/IO) caps they are mostly general filter caps... 25V 100uF electrolytic... the CPU has one more electrolytic on it as well (can't recall value).

 

[Neverending Project]

If you are trying to keep everything original for the sake of a complete restoration, here is my take on it...

If something like the power supply, marquee light or coins lamps went out back in the day while it was out on route, the operators would make whatever change necessary to get it back up and running. If they had switched power supplies, CFLs and LEDs, they would have probably used them because of the better performance (unless making the switch took too much time).

Regardless, making these types of upgrades do not detract from the overall meaning of the restoration. In my opinion, the boards, monitor, artwork and controls are the most important pieces to restore... What if you had to replace some wires or connectors, would you use original wires/connectors just for the sake of it - or would new connectors make more sense?

Just my .02...

[Level42]

If you are trying to keep everything original for the sake of a complete restoration, here is my take on it...

If something like the power supply, marquee light or coins lamps went out back in the day while it was out on route, the operators would make whatever change necessary to get it back up and running. If they had switched power supplies, CFLs and LEDs, they would have probably used them because of the better performance (unless making the switch took too much time).

Regardless, making these types of upgrades do not detract from the overall meaning of the restoration. In my opinion, the boards, monitor, artwork and controls are the most important pieces to restore... What if you had to replace some wires or connectors, would you use original wires/connectors just for the sake of it - or would new connectors make more sense?

Just my .02...

I agree with the message here, but I don't agree that switchers are automatically better than lineair power supplies. They have advantages for sure but also disadvantages...
Amazingly, _all_ my cabs have the original Power Supply so I didn't have to think about it, but if I'd get a cab that already had a switcher in there and was working fine, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it ...

[TheShanMan]

I'm certainly less concerned about the marquee light than I am the PS. But the switching PS looks so out of place in there, and it's super obvious that it's not stock (you can see where the PS board is supposed to mount, and it's just missing).

I'm up for original as long as it will perform as well as the alternative, it's available (not sure the light actually is), it's not much more expensive, and it's not hard to get up and running. That's my criteria. Otherwise I'm fine with alternatives.

I also do not think switchers are automatically better. They may be more efficient (from my recollection), but that's not my primary concern, and I imagine they put more noise on the output.

Thanks!

[TheShanMan]

No luck finding a fiberglass pencil today, so I guess I'll order online.

I bought an original PS off of ebay. Since it doesn't appear that rebuild kits exist anymore, does someone have a parts list for the components on the PS board? I'm hoping I can combine my pencil order with the PS components, since I'm buying from an electronics site (don't know if they have everything I need though), so hoping to get a parts list ASAP - would like to order tonight or tomorrow morning.

I may also place a Bob Roberts order tonight for the switching PS, monitor cap kit, and anything else that might make sense to get from him (suggestions?).

[SirPeale]

I'd test it first.  Other than the caps, the rest of the parts might be just fine.  I'd touch up the solder joints, replace the caps and test.  Actually, check that; I'd touch up the solder joints and test, just to see if anything smokes.

[Neverending Project]

If you check pages 36-38 of the manual (the early manual, haven't looked at the old one) there are schematics of the power supplies that show the components.

[TheShanMan]

Thanks Peale for that advice - I like it. And NP, thanks for referring me to the manual. I have it, but for some reason was thinking it didn't include info on the PS.

Turns out Bob Roberts does have a PS rebuild kit. I'm placing an order with him for this stuff (can someone confirm that my monitor is a WG K4600, looking at the pictures I posted at the beginning of the thread?):

• 1 Wms Battery Conversion Kit $4.00
• 1 Wms PCB Mounting Bolts (25) $2.50
• 1 Wms Def/Star/Bub/Rob/Jou OEM PS REPAIR Kit $10.00
• 1 Wms Fuse Kit $3.00
• 1 15 Amp Standard Switching Power Supply $25.00
• 1 K4600 19" color cap kit $5.00

And I ordered a fiberglass pencil online (ugh - paid double the price for the pencil due to shipping, but then again I don't want to spend all kinds of time on the phone trying to get one locally, then the gas and time to go pick it up).

My thought is once I get the fiberglass pencil, I will clean up the boards. Hopefully then I'll have a working PS so I can see if my end result has improved. If I'm stuck, I'll proceed to take Retro up on his offer to give it a once over.

[Kevin Mullins]

Without a doubt .... that's a K4600 monitor.   

[TheShanMan]

Thanks Kevin! I searched all over the monitor, chassis, and board and couldn't find anything that appeared to be the model (or the make for that matter), and had to do some research online to figure it out, so thanks for the confirmation!

[Kevin Mullins]

Alot of times those had a sticker on the metal frame/shielding areas towards the top mounting area of the monitor.
And typically ..... they would fall off.

[Level42]

How did they connect the switcher. You may have to restore the old wiring/connectors.

[TheShanMan]

If you look at my first picture, you can see that it has the old harness there, so I think I'm good. I'm at work so I can't look at my machine in greater detail, but it looks like I can just remove the wires going to the switcher and hook the original connectors to the linear supply.

[TheShanMan]

While I wait for parts (waiting for The Real Bob Roberts to return following the Gustav evacuation) I've started on some control panel maintenance. It is quite clear that I need the joystick rebuild kit from Arcade Amusements, which runs $35 plus shipping (bummer). But at least it comes with everything except the shaft and ball (even includes the leaf springs)!

Has anyone gotten the rebuild kit before? Is it good quality? Were you fully satisfied? Does anyone else sell the kit?

Next I am going to re-glue the overlay. Haven't decided yet if I will completely remove it first, or just apply the glue to the area that has separated. Inclination is to completely remove it so I can clean the surface first (the part that has separated surely has accumulated some dirt).

[Level42]

I've never worked on a Williams CPO, but getting it off on other machines without damaging it is completely impossible.
If it's in nice enough condition (pictures look good) I'd try to re-glue the parts that came loose.

Normally it takes a heat-gun and/or some chemical stuff to get the CPO removed.

[SirPeale]

The CPO on Defenders seems to be more like the ones on a Donkey Kong than other machines, eg it's silkscreened on thick plexi instead of a flexible lexan.

[RetroACTIVE]

Be sure to call arcadeshop about that rebuild kit to verify it comes with everything but the stick.  The one I got did not....  the pic was misleading. The rebuild kit does work well...outrageously priced, but does the job.

Be careful with your cpo... originals are not very flexible so I would reccomend not trying to remove it for risk of cracking it.  I bought repro from arcadeshop and it is nothing like the original. The arcadeshop version is very very soft, almost like rubbery soft and it marks very easily... Just be careful with the one you have... its much nicer than the repro.

[TheShanMan]

Thanks Retro. Appreciate the advice on the rebuild kit. And I did most of the gluing last night. My wife gave me good advice that I took: she suggested to just gently pull the separated area back enough to clean the area with a q-tip (I used goof off). I then used my all purpose spray adhesive by holding the nozzle right up to the opening between the wood and the overlay. I then just put a book on the area with some weight plates on top for a while. It seemed to work well - we'll see if it lasts.

Fortunately I don't need to even think about replacing the overlay - it's in excellent shape! Not even any damage from the joystick shaft, or any cigarette burns. Surface is PERFECT.

[TheShanMan]

Ordered the joystick rebuild kit today. The lady said it comes with everything pictured: 3 metal parts plus the 2 leaf switches.

[TheShanMan]

The Real Bob Roberts is back, and my order is initiated (as soon as my check arrives he's going to ship the parts), so I look forward to getting the stuff sometime next week. I'm excited to get moving on it!

[Level42]

The Real Bob Roberts is back, and my order is initiated (as soon as my check arrives he's going to ship the parts), so I look forward to getting the stuff sometime next week. I'm excited to get moving on it!

Great news ! Everything OK with Bob ?

B.t.w. his site still says Temp.closed.

O, and there's a great deal on 4164's on the KLOV forum:
http://forums.webmagic.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=2&Number=876481&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

[TheShanMan]

So the gluing of the overlay seems to be going well. I decided not to peel the whole thing off, so I'm doing one bit at a time, without removing the buttons or joystick. I'm just about done though - one corner left to glue tonight. It's nice to see the overlay laying flat!

So I see that one of the buttons on the panel should be green. Was there ALWAYS a green button on the defender panels originally, or did it depend on when it was manufactured? If they were always green from the factory, then I'd like to get a green button. But I figure I'd rather get a used one so it doesn't stand out among the other 28 year old buttons. Anyone know where I might be able to find one? Or should I just post a request in BST?

[RetroACTIVE]

So I see that one of the buttons on the panel should be green. Was there ALWAYS a green button on the defender panels originally, or did it depend on when it was manufactured? If they were always green from the factory, then I'd like to get a green button. But I figure I'd rather get a used one so it doesn't stand out among the other 28 year old buttons. Anyone know where I might be able to find one? Or should I just post a request in BST?

SmartBomb = green
1P & 2P = red
All others = white

 

PS: I think I have the old grody one that was on my panel prior to me restoring... I'll look for it... you can have it if you like.

[TheShanMan]

Appreciate that, Retro! I'm planning on cleaning up my buttons. They don't look horrible but definitely used. I assume they'll clean up somewhat, but at this point I don't intend to replace them with new ones. I assume your green one isn't in HORRIBLE shape but just kind of dingy and 28 years old. I wonder if using steel wool on the buttons would be a good idea???

And thanks a bunch to Level42! I just paid for a set of 4164 on your suggestion. And as a consequence I just ordered Peale's adapter. Was hoping to order ram from Peale since he's been so kind in helping me out here, but since I want to get this running ASAP, I decided to get this ram now.

That means everything I know I need to try to get this running well is on order. So it shouldn't be long before I'm working diligently on it. And that also means it might not be long before I take Retro up on his offer to get the board running for me, if I have trouble. But I'm optimistic, so hopefully it won't come down to that.

[TheShanMan]

My original PS came in the mail today (via ebay). Looks to be in good shape other than the missing rectifier and fuse. Hopefully it will be easy to get running with my PS rebuild kit that I should be getting next week.

[TheShanMan]

How did they connect the switcher. You may have to restore the old wiring/connectors.

Well now that I can actually put an original PS board in there, I realize I was only thinking about half of it: the connector coming from the transformer is there, but the connector going to the cpu/video board isn't (since they now connect to the switcher).

So I guess I need to redo a connector for it. Any suggestions on where I ought to get the connector parts, and precisely what it is I need? Probably not hard to get I imagine, but a good recommendation would be appreciated, especially from a place that would likely have low shipping rates for something so small - it might end up being the only thing in the order.

[Kevin Mullins]

I'd shoot an e-mail over to Bob Roberts ...... heck, he might even include it in your other order if it hasn't shipped out yet.

[TheShanMan]

Great suggestion Kevin, however, Bob is too fast for me! He shipped my order yesterday simply on my word that I sent the check, and I'm a new customer! That's some awesome service! Here I thought I'd be getting my stuff next week, and instead he replies back and says look for it tomorrow!

So I guess I'll either have to order it from Mouser, or put in another order with Bob. I think I'll hold off until I discover if there's more stuff I need to buy, and then I'll know where to order everything at the same time. Bob's sending me a switcher, so I can use that until I'm ready to rebuild my original PS.

In other news... I bought a marquee from quarterarcade.com today. Mine was in good condition, but had cracks in the red and other minor flaws, so it wouldn't have looked great with a backlight (backlight doesn't exist yet). A bit expensive at $28 plus shipping, but they rated it a 4 star out of 5, so by their definition of 4 stars, I should be quite happy with it when backlit.

I did bid on an ebay marquee, but the picture wasn't high resolution and the description wasn't detailed. It looked good, but the lady wouldn't provide more info or pics, so I didn't bid enough to win. The funny thing is, I contacted her after to say how much more I was willing to bid if only it had a higher resolution pic, and she totally dumped on me about her current life issues as an explanation why it wasn't worth it to her to do more than she did (I didn't ask for an explanation). As a business, I figured she might find the feedback helpful (or she could ignore it for all I cared), but apparently she didn't appreciate it at all.

[beerbarrel]

Shanman,

Would you do me a favor and see if there is a jumper wire above the sandcast power resistor that is located between the fuses and connector?

Thanks,
Tracy