Sonic Gun System - Guns for non-tube displays

[davidrfoley]

Some have asked in another thread if the sonic sensors will work behind plexi or glass? 

No, the actual sensors must be exposed as they use acoustic waves.  They are only 10mm in diameter, so they only require a very small area of exposure.

Also what is the range?  That is another common complaint about the IR based guns.

The design range is 0 to 15 feet.  We anticipate being able to extend it greatly after the initial release.

How far back do you have to stand?

only a few mm

How is the accuracy as compared to other acrade guns

much greater.  We anticipate pixel accuracy within the usage range.

and does it flash the screen like they do? 

No, the system is completely independent of the video system so there is no interaction with the display.   You'll be able to use Tube, Plasma, LCD, projectors and any other type of display technology.

We are still in the design and prototype phase of the project, however I've posted the intiial specs and integration information at http://www.nanotechent.com/sgs-support.php

[ahofle]

I know it's early, but do you have any plans for a consumer (hobbyist) version and if so do you have a rough price estimate?  This looks to me like the future of gun games, assuming the accuracy and required distance is as you describe.

[davidrfoley]

I can't quote a price.

[TPB]

This looks to me like the future of gun games

It sure does sound promising.

Keep up the good work Dave, and keep us posted on further development of this product !!   

[Shoegazer]

Another question - will the SGS be "compatible" with all MAME shooting games in their different interfaces, since some used a mouse interface, some used joystick, etc?  And will they allow for both players in each case?  I'm trying to think of all the issues the TopGuns solved that we now take for granted...

Shoegazer

[davidrfoley]

The default setup is to put the XY coordinates into a standard joystick interface.  Since we have done mouse interfacing in the past with Trackballs, I don't see why we couldn't have an option to switch the input form Joystick to mouse.  I'll put that on the wish list for the configuration utility.

[Shoegazer]

Great - thanks, David.  Hopefully that means we'll have *dual* mice supported as well, as that was a major issue plaguing early gun interfaces such as those from Act Labs.  It goes without saying that dual-mouse support means more people buying two guns..

Shoegazer

[Carsten Carlos]

That's an exciting system you are talking about!

Say, will the sensors be affected by loud music?

Hope I can get this stuff delivered to germany when it's done! 

[davidrfoley]

No, music won't affect these.  They have been designed to be implemented in arcade environments.

[aljupy]

Sounds pretty interesting:

A switch to change Joystick-Mouse  is the BEST way to do.

If not....I do not know how I could play  "HOUSE OF THE DEAD 1" to say one example.


A "PLAYSTATION 2" mode would be a good point.  PLaystation 2 is the console with best lightgun games.

Many thanks for your info.

[shmokes]

Any ETA on these (emphasis on the E)?  Also, for people building a cab right now who might want to make accommodations, how are the sensors mounted?

[davidrfoley]

We have completed the prototype boards and are working on the firmware.  Sometime in the next quarter we should be releasing the consumer version.

[TheShanMan]

That's about the time frame where I will probably want to get serious about a gun purchase, so I'm glad to hear it. I haven't necessarily ruled out other guns, but this one has my interest for sure so I look forward to it with anticipation!

[brandon]

Another question - will the SGS be "compatible" with all MAME shooting games in their different interfaces, since some used a mouse interface, some used joystick, etc?  And will they allow for both players in each case?  I'm trying to think of all the issues the TopGuns solved that we now take for granted...

Shoegazer

even with games like Terminator 2 where the positional gun was basically a joystick on the original cabinet MAME will still convert the mouse X,Y coordinates and work correctly.  Would the gun really need to be able to operate as a joystick?  I know one advantage would be the way that Windows handles multiple joysticks more easily than multiple mice but do any other games require the gun to be seen as a joystick?  I would think that all PC games like House of the Dead handle joystick input in a way that wouldn't work correctly..  as in, press left, cursor moves left..Like playing Time Crisis with a gamepad..   not like an analog joystick and absolute coordinate like T2.

[davidrfoley]

as with any hardware solution, you can't solve all problems the same.  That is why we have the ability to provide either joystick or mouse inputs.  The joystick is more common to have multiple units that interface with the OS, and thus our choice for default.  We did this with the OptiGun interface and it proved to be the best default input device.  We'll be releasing the firmware to open source so people will be welcome to customize the interface to the host.

[davidrfoley]

Any ETA on these (emphasis on the E)?  Also, for people building a cab right now who might want to make accommodations, how are the sensors mounted?

There are two mounting holes on each of the four screen sensors.

Here is a mockup of what the screen sensors look like:

 

[thatitalian]

They look different to the original ones. I may include this accommodation in my cab. Do you have dimensions?

[aljupy]

I wonder how you calibrate it if it´s Driverless. 

[davidrfoley]

[davidrfoley]

I wonder how you calibrate it if it´s Driverless. 

We will include a setup utility that writes the calibration to the PSoC chip. 

[Lilwolf]

GREAT!  I love to see this is coming out!  I have some questions

1) is this only going to be abilible in a gun?  or will you be selling the guts to fit in other guns? 

2) Without calibration, how are you going to handle varying bezel size (this will probably be a big issue for most of us.  Some of us can't just move it right next to the tube.  For me, maybe an inch?)  Will the standard windows calibration be enough (hold gun in center, only move it to the edges of the screen.... and not beyond?  should work I guess)

3) can people be standing in different locations around the monitor (side, low, high, ect).  And will they need to recalibrate?

Very cool.  Hopefully the costs will be low enough to allow casual hobbies to get them, while not being little plastic rayguns.

[aljupy]

3) can people be standing in different locations around the monitor (side, low, high, ect).  And will they need to recalibrate?

On SGSFLYER.PDF   I can read that you don´t lose any accuracy by moving backward or forward.  So I guess that once you Fix sensors on each of 4 corners and you calibrate it with the "calibration setup utility" that is mentioned about. You´ll be able to move around without losing accuracy.
I hope I understand well bacause it sound good.

That sounds very interesting.  I never heard of a lightgun that uses wave sounds to position.

[davidrfoley]

Well, its not a "lightgun" its an "acoustic gun"  But yes, the accuracy will remain regardless of distance to the sensors.

[davidrfoley]

1) is this only going to be abilible in a gun?  or will you be selling the guts to fit in other guns? 

Parts will be available to build your own gun, however, there are some strict guidelines for the barrel that will have to be followed.  We'll provide CAD files for the barrel.

2) Without calibration, how are you going to handle varying bezel size (this will probably be a big issue for most of us.  Some of us can't just move it right next to the tube.  For me, maybe an inch?)  Will the standard windows calibration be enough (hold gun in center, only move it to the edges of the screen.... and not beyond?  should work I guess)

There is no using it without calibration.  Calibration does not require moving it next to the tube, I'm not sure where you got  that notion.  The calibration software simply has you aim at certain targets and pull the trigger.

3) can people be standing in different locations around the monitor (side, low, high, ect).  And will they need to recalibrate?

once calibration is completed, the angle and location to the sensors does not affect the performance. recalibration will only be necessary if the sensors move relative to each other.

[brandon]

I'm very excited about this!!   I've seen some guns in arcades that didn't use light guns but the guns functioned the same from the users point of view.  I did notice some sort of sensors or emiters around the screen.. was it IR sort of like the Wii? oh and BTW, everyone remember the Power Glove?  It used some sort of ultrasonic triangulation to position itself in 3D..  That makes me think...   If you made a gun with two barrels that were a known distance apart then software could calculate a Z distance.. hmm..

[davidrfoley]

I updated the image of the Sensor from a mock-up to a picture of the real sensor next to a ruler so that you can compare to the drawings that I posted and see how it gets mounted.

The Sega system uses a bunch of IR sensors around the display and a camera in the barrel of the gun.

[Numbski]

Definitely looking forward to this.  The ability to possibly house this in an actual arcade gun, or heck, just about anything that looks like a gun (maybe even a film gun prop???) is just plain awesome.  I never would have thought to use a sonic interface for something like this.  Great work!

[shmokes]

Any idea what it would cost to have a glass shop drill holes in the four corners of glass when they cut it for you?  I'm planning to eventually pick up a pane of tinted glass for my cabinet.  There would really be no good place for me to mount those sensors, but it seems like I could just glue the PCP to the back of the glass and put the sensor portion though the hole in the glass for a pretty clean-looking install.  I can't imagine drilling a few holes in the glass would substantially increase the cost of the glass.

[davidrfoley]

The sensors can be placed anywhere on the screen, they don't have to be at the exact corners of the display, so moving them out a few inches won't affect performance, but might solve your problem.  The other option is to use a polycarbonate instead of glass, in which case drilling / cutting is a lot cheaper.  They have many shades now that you can get the tint that you like.

[RandyT]

Any idea what it would cost to have a glass shop drill holes in the four corners of glass when they cut it for you?  I'm planning to eventually pick up a pane of tinted glass for my cabinet.  There would really be no good place for me to mount those sensors, but it seems like I could just glue the PCP to the back of the glass and put the sensor portion though the hole in the glass for a pretty clean-looking install.  I can't imagine drilling a few holes in the glass would substantially increase the cost of the glass.

If the glass is tempered, drilling probably isn't going to be an option.  It would have to be done before tempering.  I'd just go with acrylic to make things like this easier to implement.  It holds up fine, as evidenced by the piece I've had in my cabinet for the last 6+ years.  Still looks almost perfect.

Something that would be nice eventually would be a small, attractive plastic housing for the sensors with some good PSA on the back. 

RandyT

[gothroughthegate]

I know they won't work behide glass.  Do you think they will work behide a plastic bezel like the happs bezels?

[davidrfoley]

definitely not behind anything.

[gothroughthegate]

definitely not behind anything.

I was hoping.  Still going to buy one or two .

[davidrfoley]

You could drill a 9mm hole in the bezel and mount it behind that and just have the sensor poke through.

[Ummon]

I know they won't work behide glass.  Do you think they will work behide a plastic bezel like the happs bezels?

It's not the glass. It's any substance in the way. Interference of waves you know.

[shmokes]

It would have to be done before tempering. 

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.  I don't have any glass yet, and probably won't until I'm making money . . . next summer hopefully, but possibly sooner.

[BASS!]

Hey any word yet on eta or status?

ultracade ultrapin pinball wizzard

[davidrfoley]

we don't give out ETA's on engineering projects as we are facing too many unknowns.  The prototype boards are done, and we are working on the firmware.

Here is a picture of the receiver board

[agfisher]

definitely not behind anything.

Since it's acoustic, can i use the same material used to cover speakers to cover the sensors?

[davidrfoley]

not if you are talking about the metal mesh type speaker covers.  Those actually block the audio and cause it to be less than ideal, however, most people don't notice that.  If you are talking about a fabric, it will impede the signal somewhat, but we haven't measured those effects as of yet.   Once the product is in the testing phase, we'll test it with some fabric speaker materials to see if those would be acceptable.