Ultimarc Spinner details...

[RandyT]

Randy - any reason why you don't accept PayPal?

Yes...it's PayPal.  I use it quite a bit myself, so it's a little hypocritical not to accept it.  But I prefer our established merchant protections over the ones PayPal has been notorious for in the past.  If it's a small order drawn on something other than a CC, and shipped domestically, people usually send me an email and I work something out for them.

Good advice from both Donkey_Kong and mountain on this subject, BTW.  Satisfies all parties.

RandyT

[RoomTenONine]

Not that it matters to you Randy, but that was a perfect reply.  I say just go ahead and pimp your products and let their quality speak for themselves, if you see someone who you think are infringing on your ideas, speak to them publicly.  Keeps thing nice and tidy in here and we can talk about arcade stuff, not argue amongst ourselves.

props

Agreed.  I know I've kind of changed gears in this thread, but it is only after some careful thought of just how hard it is for smaller businesses to acquire patents of new designs on devices that are already common that I understand where Randy is coming from.  I've also gone back through some older posts and I see a trend of some (not all and not even many) people having a feeding frenzy when Randy (or anyone else with a strong differing opinion) makes honest, but blunt comments.  That doesn't sit well with me personally because the things I've seen attacked were honest observations.  Just because you don't like someone's approach or 'tude doesn't give one the right to trash them with unsubstantiated attacks.

I don't want to sound like I'm pointing any fingers because I'm not.  This is just an observation.  What I'm saying is I think some people just need to relax on all "sides", have a sense of humor and remember that we are here because we love us some classic arcade games.  Keep people.

[RoomTenONine]

Randy - any reason why you don't accept PayPal?  I keep all of my arcade funds in a separate account (by selling random stuff on eBay) and it really burns the wife when the credit card statement comes in with arcade-related charges.  When I pay through PayPal she never even sees it... yeah, a little off-topic...

I do use paypal, but I get why someone wouldn't use them.  Google the horror stories of consumers and business falling prey to the weak ID theft protection Paypal has offered.  Their practices in general are questionable.  Viral marketing, locking real people out of their OWN accounts, poor transaction protection, etc.

[javeryh]

Sweet!  I had no idea you could do those things!  I need a NovaMatrix marquee light and I've been tentative about pulling the trigger.

[TPB]

Just because you don't like someone's approach or 'tude doesn't give one the right to trash them with unsubstantiated attacks.

Ultimarc and GGG both sell great products.

So it's a shame we're even discussing these matters.

But Randy's not deserving of the "moral high ground" in this thread.

Randy made the first "unsubstantiated attack", with his reference to Andy being "just about as sleazy as it gets."

You can't make that comment, without expecting replies.

Randy feels this product is similar to his own, but that doesn't mean it's identical - almost surely it isn't - with any similarity being purely coincidental.


Andy has also felt some GGG products bore stark similarities to products that came before them, but his response was to quietly accept this in the healthy spirit of competition, rather than launching into a personal attack on another vendor :

Note that we were the first to launch a spinner with a rear-mounted detachable flywheel. When the TT2 was launched with this feature I didnt say a thing.

When a version of the KeyWiz was launched which has the same connector layout as the I-PAC I didnt either. Just seemed to be a reasonable advance as its a neater layout than the original.

I remember when the TT1 was launched thinking how much like the Tornado it seemed. A good product nevertheless.

[TPB]

it really burns the wife when the credit card statement comes in with arcade-related charges.

Apparently Wives are pretty much the same, all around the World.   

If I purchase something arcade related on the credit card, the only way to keep the peace is to shell out for a "sweetener" on the next statement, eg, shoes or clothing.

But that can get expensive, so your "PayPal slush fund" is an idea worth considering.   

[RandyT]

Randy made the first "unsubstantiated attack", with his reference to Andy being "just about as sleazy as it gets."

Randy feels this product is similar to his own, but that doesn't mean it's identical - almost surely it isn't - with any similarity being purely coincidental.

TPB, please understand that I am no longer speaking about the spinner situation.  This relates to the discussion in general.  What all of this is, is merely a difference of opinion.  You have, as demonstrated above, come to one conclusion, but that conclusion is also in no way at all substantiated by any form of fact or proof.  Therefore, by logic, it carries the exact same weight as my conclusion, or a completely different conclusion made by someone else.  It is simply your take on the matter, based on the same data that is available to everyone else.  You also misquoted me.

On the other hand, fervently defending your view, or trying to persuade others that yours is correct, is what adds fuel to fire.  I stopped, others stopped, but you just did this again in this post, and have once more prompted a response, that I will no doubt get hammered on for by a few select individuals.

Andy has also felt some GGG products bore stark similarities to products that came before them, but his response was to quietly accept this in the healthy spirit of competition, rather than launching into a personal attack on another vendor :

And here, you have chosen to give a pass to one of the participants, apparently due to the bias you have as part of your conclusion.  When one enters something into the discussion, it is because that individual wants those things to be considered.  Saying that you observed X doing Y but "didn't have a problem with it" is exactly like saying "but X did Y, so that makes everything ok".  Your ability to miss that subtlety, again, falls in line with your opinion on the topic, as is your entitlement.  But by the same token, understand that others may see it differently, as is their entitlement.

I am happy to let this rest for now.  Please be so kind as to do the same so that I may.

RandyT

[RoomTenONine]

Just because you don't like someone's approach or 'tude doesn't give one the right to trash them with unsubstantiated attacks.

Ultimarc and GGG both sell great products.

So it's a shame we're even discussing these matters.

No doubt on the the product quality (especially seeing as they are copying each other...sorry I couldn't resist )

It is a shame it has to be discussed and I think its fair to drop the subject all together in this thread.  Like I said before.  Randy could have proceeded differently to protect his legal rear, but then none of us would have the TT in our hands.  Its a Catch-22 that we could go round and round about for months.  Because of the cyclical logic of the situation it is really difficult to fault someone from being frustrated, but on the flip that doesn't give free reign for anyone to jump in and bash the "other" side.  In fact it is kind of disheartening to realize there are such divided sides.

I'm actually shaking my head and laughing while I type this.  I've been lurking here for about a year now and up until this thread I really had a different opinion of the forum...that it was this big happy love fest of everyone just wanting to build good cabs and controls.  Which in many ways it is, I was just surprised to see such a division included.

Cheers all and happy spinning no matter what you use.

[TPB]

Randy made the first "unsubstantiated attack", with his reference to Andy being "just about as sleazy as it gets."

You also misquoted me.

I think we'd all like to let this matter rest.  No-one benefits from these types of discussions.

One thing though, I'm not aware of having mis-quoted you.

Yes, I added emphasis to the "sleazy" term you used to describe Andy.

If I was submitting a University Thesis (as opposed to posting in a forum), I would have included a footnote to say "emphasis added" :

It's unfortunate, however, that the "adoption" of yet another one of my concepts is necessary for him to "compete".  Apologies for the snark, but this is just about as sleazy as it gets.

Andy read this remark the same way.

Understandably, he also focused on that term that was leveled at him :

I do not consider adopting new technology "sleazy" just because another supplier is also using this technology. The KeyWiz uses the same chip as the I-PAC, no problem with that.

[RandyT]

I guess it's necessary to spell it out. 

The word was used to describe the action, as Andy seems to have understood based on his response, while you used it to describe an individual, which I did not do.  Ergo, you misquoted me.

Are we ok now?

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

Regarding the unanswered question about the manufacturer. I am happy to supply details to a third-party as has been suggested, but not sure this would achieve anything since any person I would trust would probably not be accepted by the "second party".

Some more thoughts on this whole issue for what they are worth:
The manufacturer offered us either a threaded version with nut, or a version without threads, retained by a C-clamp. It was a toss-up, I was slightly worried about the nut coming loose. Eventually went with the threaded version after testing.

So now, the question is, should I have gone with the C-clamp version? Maybe I should and this would have avoided the "copying" accusation.
But, hold on, Randy accused me of "adopting one of his concepts". So that infers that there would have been no difference in his accusations, depending on which "concept" he actually means.
The "concept" cant be the spinner itself, the rear-mouted flyheel or the high resolution encoder as these all pre-date the TT2 (the second two appearing on the original Spintrak).
So I am thinking that any compact design I were to have launched would have attracted the same accusation because the "concept" is compactness.
There was in fact no way I was going to sell anything other than a compact spinner once the compact encoders became available. As I mentioned earlier, the compact encoders were NOT available when we were planning the original SpinTrak. I know that for a fact as I did a huge amount of research at that time. They became available shortly after we had ordered the first (and only) batch of those units, and then using anything else would have been crazy, as for one thing they are cheaper.
In fact as soon as they did become available I knew that we would not be ordering any more of the original design. That was even before it went on sale.
Having spotted the Avago HEDR-5420 encoder module which by that time had appeared on the Farnell website I planned to use those in the next version and mentally thought of a compact design, knowing I would not actually be implementing it for possibly a year as the first batch of the original design were still in production. In fact production of that first batch was greatly delayed and so the whole timescale extended.
In the end we didnt use the HEDR-5420 module as the manufacturer already had a complete unit available by that time as I have mentioned before.

It might just be that after this batch is sold (which is going to take some time) we change the order again. We have an OEM manufacturer who plans to use these and if he reports the nut is coming loose then the decision to change will be made.

Nice little Paypal diversion on this thread! In have a really scary Paypal story but I will keep if for a dedicated Paypal thread!

Andy

[blind_dado]

Andy,

I am interested in getting the SpinTrak but have a few questions: 1) is the SS styleed knob with the o-rings available?  I didn't see it as an option in the online store.  2) if I get an o-ring knob at Happ, will it fit on the SpinTrack, or are your SS styled knobs a different diameter?  3) is there a performance difference between connecting to a mini-pac and a USB 2.0?  What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different interfaces?

Thanks!

[thatitalian]

Do you no what, I am gonna ban all your arses!

Now..... to get admin rights.... maybe I can use paypal???

[bvicarious]

okay, now who's going to put a trackball in a button form factor?

[shmokes]

Randy does this to everyone he competes with, including Oscar Controls and Slikstik (and probably others who don't immediately come to mind).  Every time he feels he's been wronged, which is pretty much all the time, he goes all scorched earth, posting hasty insults aimed not only at his competitors, but at anyone who suggests that he ought to chill out.  It's not even always because he thinks his design has been stolen.  Sometimes he craps up a product announcement thread just to go in and rant about why his competing product is better.  It just ain't classy.

The list of people who have vowed to never purchase from him based on nothing but his hot temper and mean attitude is rather long.  It's pretty obvious that he makes consistently great products, and from what I've read he offers great, personal customer service and tech support.  That those facts can be true, yet he has a growing list of people who refuse to shop at GGG speaks volumes.

Stick to research and design, Randy, and hire yourself a public face.  It would do wonders for your business.

[Ginsu Victim]

okay, now who's going to put a trackball in a button form factor?

I would actually buy that just because I don't have room for a full size one on my 23 5/8" CP, but would love to use it for a mouse, mostly. I'm sure some games would still be playable. With the technology of the compact spinners, it doesn't seem like a small marble trackball in that style would be too difficult. Of course, I'm just talking out of ---my bottom--- here.

[Ginsu Victim]

hire yourself a public face.  It would do wonders for your business.

So the mean-looking wizard isn't helping?

[AndyWarne]

Andy,

I am interested in getting the SpinTrak but have a few questions: 1) is the SS styleed knob with the o-rings available?  I didn't see it as an option in the online store.  2) if I get an o-ring knob at Happ, will it fit on the SpinTrack, or are your SS styled knobs a different diameter?  3) is there a performance difference between connecting to a mini-pac and a USB 2.0?  What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different interfaces?

Thanks!

Yes we do have the o-ring knobs except not in red. I will get them added to the store. The Happ knobs have a 1/4 in hole whereas ours are 6mm.
USB 2.0 gives a higher maximum speed which is noticeable in very fast "twist" movements. How often this occurs would depend on the gameplay and the game itself.

[blind_dado]

Thanks!  I just ordered one!  (Couldn't decide on a knob, so I got two.)

[FrizzleFried]

What I'd like to know is if a single solitary cent is going to SlikStik or their owners?   I refuse to purchase anything (even a knob) that lines those less-then-forthright peoples pockets.

No Slik-Stik?  I'd suggest letting folks know....

[RandyT]

Randy does this to everyone he competes with, including Oscar Controls and Slikstik (and probably others who don't immediately come to mind).  Every time he feels he's been wronged, which is pretty much all the time, he goes all scorched earth, posting hasty insults aimed not only at his competitors, but at anyone who suggests that he ought to chill out.  It's not even always because he thinks his design has been stolen.  Sometimes he craps up a product announcement thread just to go in and rant about why his competing product is better.  It just ain't classy.

The list of people who have vowed to never purchase from him based on nothing but his hot temper and mean attitude is rather long.  It's pretty obvious that he makes consistently great products, and from what I've read he offers great, personal customer service and tech support.  That those facts can be true, yet he has a growing list of people who refuse to shop at GGG speaks volumes.

Stick to research and design, Randy, and hire yourself a public face.  It would do wonders for your business.

Every response I have made in this thread has been on an even keel.  The same cannot be said for others.  There is only one party here with intimate knowledge as to how this situation has come about, yet without doing any research as to the veracity of the claims, the ones who have been attacking me have taken that individual's mere words as gospel.

Shmokes, we have customer base in  the thousands, and have had a problem with about 3 of them who I could not satisfy.  Your claims about "growing lists" are unfounded unless by stating so you are hoping to help make one.

We place our livelihood on the line each time we invest in a new product for this niche market.  We don't have huge OEM deals.  We don't live in a 1.7 million dollar home.  Every niche item we produce,  just because we have the passion to want a good version to be available to the community, impacts us personally, as niche items aren't the common "big sellers".  And we produce more of these than anyone.

It saddens me to see the "usual suspects"  yet again crawl out of the woodwork to savage my name, simply because I offered an opinion, and then again when forced to defend it,  as to a business decision made by another in this community, one which concerns me far more deeply than any other individuals in this thread.  A number of whom have in the past disseminated poor information and prop up poorly performing products to the community, and whose major problem with myself is the unwillingness to mince words when blowing the BS whistle on them.  Some, like Shmokes just like to pile on once the festivities begin and bring up fantastical occurrences, which seem to exist primarily in his mind.  Again, due to the personal interactions we have had in the past.

So I'll let the search engines speak for me from here on in.  I personally don't have the stomach for it anymore.

RandyT

[Ginsu Victim]

[shmokes]

Shmokes, we have customer base in  the thousands, and have had a problem with about 3 of them who I could not satisfy. 

As I mentioned in my post, you apparently have very good, personal customer service/tech support.  I'm talking about the multiple people on these message boards who have said that they refuse to do business with you because of your unprofessional behavior here.  As far as personal interactions we have had in the past that lead me to go against you, I don't know what you could possibly be referring to.  The only negative interactions we have ever had have been in your competitor's threads in which you start mudslinging and making things generally unpleasant.  Unless you're talking about disagreements in the PnR forum, but that has nothing to do with it (not to mention that I think we agree on more politically than we disagree).  Anyway, my calling you out for your nasty attitude toward your competitors predates any political disagreements we've had.

Seriously, Randy, what good do you accomplish with these attacks?  Read through the various threads in which you've done this and take the temperature.  The vast majority of public opinion always sways against you.  I have never, not one single time, EVER  seen somebody say, "Wow . . . that's a shady thing to do to GGG, I'm not going to do business with so-and-so anymore."  How do you explain this, Randy?  Why is it always against GGG?  Conspiracy?  How can you even quantify the damage that you're doing to yourself?  How do you quantify the value of GGG's image -- the general emotions a person feels when they think about your company?  This affects sales.  It's reasonable to assume that there are plenty of people out there who don't take such a hard-line principled approach to refusing to do business with you, but given a viable alternative, e.g., I-Pac/Keywiz, they will order from someone else simply because that person doesn't rub them the wrong way.

It's just bad business, Randy.  If you really think that it's in your best interests to let everyone know that you think your competitor is behaving unethically, outline your position in your own thread.  Taking a big ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- in your competitors' product announcement threads is obnoxious.  It rubs people the wrong way.  I don't care if your motives are made of gold sprinkled with god dust, this behavior comes off as really underhanded and slimy.

[RandyT]

Seriously, Randy, what good do you accomplish with these attacks?  Read through the various threads in which you've done this and take the temperature.  The vast majority of public opinion always sways against you.  I have never, not one single time, EVER  seen somebody say, "Wow . . . that's a shady thing to do to GGG, I'm not going to do business with so-and-so anymore."  How do you explain this, Randy?

Since this is a direct question, I will answer.

A : How many members are in this community as opposed to the number of folks who have chimed in? 
B:  Those words of support are often conveyed in private.  Nobody wants to get caught up in the abuse.  Few revel in it the way you do.
C: This was not a "competitors announcement thread" and a comparison was made to the TT2

RandyT

[FrizzleFried]

I'd rather not get caught up in the GGG vs Ultimarc stuff... but I would like to know if Slik-Stik,  David Foley,  or any other person with a less-than-desirable reputation on these forums (or others) is making any profit from these spinners.  I can only assume the spinner tops are from Slikstik considering Andy's past exposure to S.S.,  but I don't know. 

Andy... does S.S. or Foley or anyone known to these forums make $$ off your sales of this spinner?  I'd certainly hate to contribute to the coffers of those who've done damage to this community.

[AndyWarne]

A while ago we swapped some stuff for all of Slikstiks remaining stock of knobs with the 6mm holes.
That was a one-off deal done before this new spinner was being produced. I can categorically state that no revenue from current or future sales will go to SS.

David Foley? Never had any dealings with him at all.

Andy

[FrizzleFried]

That is good news indeed...

 

[shmokes]

A : How many members are in this community as opposed to the number of folks who have chimed in? 

Exactly what I meant when I talked about being unable to quantify the damage you are doing to your business.

B:  Those words of support are often conveyed in private.  Nobody wants to get caught up in the abuse.  Few revel in it the way you do.

Gimme a break.  What have you ever personally done to me?  Why would I want to abuse you any more than Andy or Oscar or Christian (well, actually Christian probably deserves some abuse)?  At any rate, maybe there are people who convey support for you in private, but there's no reason to think that your competitors aren't getting just as much private support, considering that they tend to get a lot more public support.  

[KevSteele]

Christian would come on this board with guns blazing against anyone who he felt was bad-mouthing his products, and then personally attacked anyone who spoke up. Took it real personal, and make a complete jerk of himself while trying to defend his stuff.

Christian made good stuff, but was a complete hothead on the boards, a real keyboard-commando. Don't know if it's just NJ/NY types or what...like shmokes said, a total scorched earth policy...

[davidrfoley]

Fizzle, i hope you don't buy anything from Happ Controls, as I make money on a lot of the products that they sell. 

[FrizzleFried]

Fizzle, i hope you don't buy anything from Happ Controls, as I make money on a lot of the products that they sell. 

Actually Mr. Foley,  I've not purchased a single thing from Happ Controls directly,  thank you.   If I ever do,  it will be a monitor,  and unless you've delved in to the monitor business anytime soon,  I think I am safe.

[davidrfoley]

I've actually been involved in the Monitor and TFT business for quite some time, but I'm sure you won't buy arcade monitors so we are probably safe.

[DrewKaree]

I stopped, others stopped, but you just did this again in this post, and have once more prompted a response

Are you that unable to control your own actions?  Really? 

There was no "prompting" except the one you conjured up from within, and comes from an inability to know when to give up the "I've gotta have the last word" game you're playing.

You can easily let this drop, yet you persist.  Do you not see the ease at playing the "bet Randy can't resist replying" game that nobody wants to play, yet can't resist trying out, just once?

You're a picture-perfect example of "pedantic".  Gimme a break

[davidrfoley]

I only reply to the comments made about me.  Any topics where I post an original comment are ones that are useful and informational. 

I'm stuck in a damned if you do, damned if you don't.  When people trash me and my good name here, and I don't reply, people on the forums say it just proves the misinformation or misrepresentations about me.  When I do reply, I'm chastised by people such as yourself for taking up the thread.

If you would like to stick to useful topics, then I would fully agree.  I continue to provide a lot of valuable products and information to this community, and will continue to do so, and when confronted will reply.

[RoomTenONine]

I stopped, others stopped, but you just did this again in this post, and have once more prompted a response

Are you that unable to control your own actions?  Really? 

There was no "prompting" except the one you conjured up from within, and comes from an inability to know when to give up the "I've gotta have the last word" game you're playing.

You can easily let this drop, yet you persist.  Do you not see the ease at playing the "bet Randy can't resist replying" game that nobody wants to play, yet can't resist trying out, just once?

You're a picture-perfect example of "pedantic".  Gimme a break

Let's be perfectly honest here.  When anyone is asked a direct question, called out with ill comments, quoted and misunderstood...well no ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- they are going to reply even if they wish the thread would go away.  The way I see people piling it on Randy (whether it is warranted or not is each person's opinion) after he's stepped aside is just as bad.  The problem is people on both sides won't let it go...it isn't just Randy.  A few people top in and make comments, they are addressed, things seem back on topic, then BAM a few more negative comments.  Rinse and repeat.

Some of us here need to relax, go play video games or get laid...hell rub one out if you have to.

[Hoopz]

I only reply to the comments made about me.  Any topics where I post an original comment are ones that are useful and informational. 

I'm stuck in a damned if you do, damned if you don't.  When people trash me and my good name here, and I don't reply, people on the forums say it just proves the misinformation or misrepresentations about me.  When I do reply, I'm chastised by people such as yourself for taking up the thread.

If you would like to stick to useful topics, then I would fully agree.  I continue to provide a lot of valuable products and information to this community, and will continue to do so, and when confronted will reply.

You do realize that DrewKaree was quoting RandyT and not replying to you, right?

[Havok]

I would just like to chime in and say that Randy has always been helpful with items I have purchased well after I have done so. His support and service is first rate. (Not to mention the products as well!) I am and will continue to be a repeat customer.

And Frizz - just to be on the safe side, try a Billabs monitor - we wouldn't want to line Foley's pockets by accident...

http://www.billabs.com/crts.htm

[davidrfoley]

I completely agree that people need to get over it already.  I'm not going away.  There are people whose minds are so closed they I could hand out hundred dollar bills and they'd somehow come up with story about how I stole the money from the MAME team. 

How about we move on, there is absolutely nothing productive out of hashing the MAME TM issue over and over again. 

[Namco]

I really could care less of what you think of me, but every post you make like this you further alienate yourself from others who may have been interested in purchasing your products.  It's a real shame your this way, I've spent my good money on your products and while I enjoy them I wouldn't spend another dime simply because of your attitude towards people.  Since your successful, I guess it doesn't matter if you lose a customer here and there.

^

[davidrfoley]

Well, you are entitled to your opinion of me, and voting with your wallet is a great strategy.  Not sure how you I alienated you or others, and don't understand your comment about my attitude towards people, but everyone is entitled to take away what they will from this forum.  I'll continue to defend myself, my actions and provide information and insight into my products.