Hard Drive noise damping

[Minwah]

I've noticed recently the hard drive noise in my cab is quite loud...I'm sure it didn't used to be as bad, it is now on a wooden floor (as opposed to carpet). It almost sounds like the cabinet box is amplifying the vibration/noise.

My HDD is fixed to a board using metal brackets. I thought I might put some rubber between the drive and the brackets.  Any other tricks I could do?

[Xiaou2]

 You could put the drive in a hard drive cage,  then string the cage up (suspended in air) with
bungee cords.    Most the noise is from vibrational conduction.   

 Even rubber feet will still conduct vibrations pretty darn well  (unless its soft gushy stuff like those wall-walker
toys)...  but suspended via bungee will be extremely hard for any vibrations to be transmitted to the cabinet walls.   

 I also recommend making sure there is a fan blowing air across the drives surface to expand its life expectancy.   (heat dramatically reduces HD lifespans)

---

 Added:   Also,  do not string the bungee too tight.   Just cross-suspend with adequate tension to
hold the thing in place.    The tighter the tension, the more likely vibration will be able to make it
to the cab sides.


 If it is simply a very noisy drive and vibration is not really the culprit..  you might build a small wooden box
around it to separate it from the rest of the cabinet.     Place an intake hole on the cab side of that box -
with fan pushing air towards the drive and out the back of the cabinet thru an exit hole.   

 Suspend + mini-box enclosure for best results.  (besides buying a solid state drive   )   
 

[patrickl]

I read a review that showed a PC with a busy drive would would quiet down from 45.2 dB(A) to 39.5 (Idle from 42.3 db(A) to 39.1) when put in a Silentmaxx HD-Silencer Rev 2.0 It wasn't this review though, (it was a Dutch one) It was the best cooling silencer in the test. These things cost a fortune though.

Another option was rubber feet for mounting the drive. This showed to be less effective with active to 41.8 and idle to 40.4, but still pretty good.

If it's mostly vibration resonating through the case rubber mounting feet or a rubber band solution might be enough.

[RayB]

I'm very surprised that a hard drive could be that noisey. ... It's louder than your CPU fan??

[Ginsu Victim]

One thing to make sure of is if you have a CD or DVD drive, take any discs out. When I forget and leave one in, I'm reminded VERY quickly to take it out.

[paigeoliver]

Unless you are going for a FULL installation with all the CHD games you can actually just run the whole system off a compact flash card and have no hard drive at all. Combine with one of those fanless slimline PCs and the whole thing could be silent.

[northerngames]

cut piece's off your old blank cd dvd media top rubber/foam ring that is on the top to hold the disk from moving up and down and drill a hole through the center after cutting them in a sqaure shape or something.

yeah my dvd drive sounds like a baffled/muffled router when it gets going with a disk left in lol.

[Minwah]

I'm very surprised that a hard drive could be that noisey. ... It's louder than your CPU fan??

Most of the CPU fan noise is cut out when all the doors are on/closed, and it is not too noticable. The HDD noise is fine most of the time too, but when particularly busy the 'churning' sound seems really loud...it definately sounds to me as if the noise is being transferred through the cabinet sides, amplifying it.

[Minwah]

One thing to make sure of is if you have a CD or DVD drive, take any discs out. When I forget and leave one in, I'm reminded VERY quickly to take it out.

Yes I know what you mean. I don't have a CD/DVD drive in my cabinet tho.

Unless you are going for a FULL installation with all the CHD games you can actually just run the whole system off a compact flash card and have no hard drive at all. Combine with one of those fanless slimline PCs and the whole thing could be silent.

I like the idea of this in theory, but last time I looked there wasn't a CF card big enough for my needs.  I think in a bartop or something I would definately consider this.

[Minwah]

Thanks for all the suggestions...at the moment my drive is mounted vertically, I might have a go at suspending it horizontally as in some of those articles.

[Lachlan438]

I also recommend making sure there is a fan blowing air across the drives surface to expand its life expectancy.   (heat dramatically reduces HD lifespans)

what is hot for a hard drive 

[patrickl]

I also recommend making sure there is a fan blowing air across the drives surface to expand its life expectancy.   (heat dramatically reduces HD lifespans)

what is hot for a hard drive 

Google's research showed that (in a normal operating environment) temperature isn't one of the most important factors in drive failure anyway. IIRC only in old drives, higher temperatures showed higher failure rates.

[Xiaou2]

 I had 4 drives fail on me over the years.   Always was the dive that was mounted on top.
The bottom drive cooked the top drive to early death.

 Ever since Ive placed at least 1cm+ between drives and had fans blowing across the
surface,  Ive not have any drives fail (several years).   Ive had 4 drives hooked
up in my custom case for over 3yrs.  And for about 3 yrs, have had 8 drives hooked up in
my new case mod.


 They are cool to the touch at all times. (unless its the middle of the summer heat, and the AC is not on)



 Hard drives have insane tolerances.  Heat can cause metal to expand... and quite possibly
cause head to wear and damage much faster.   It may also cause premature bearing wear.


 Also Minwah,  you could still use a vertical mount with the hanging solution.   Ive personally always
been leery of mounting vertical because Im not sure if the bearings and head will hold up as long
that way.  However, life expectancy reduction vertically is probably only minimal reduction at best, if at all.

[paigeoliver]

The largest compact flash cards out there now are 64 GB. I'd be hard pressed to fill THAT in a cabinet unless I was just dumping every rom ever dumped for every system ever made onto it.

One thing to make sure of is if you have a CD or DVD drive, take any discs out. When I forget and leave one in, I'm reminded VERY quickly to take it out.

Yes I know what you mean. I don't have a CD/DVD drive in my cabinet tho.

Unless you are going for a FULL installation with all the CHD games you can actually just run the whole system off a compact flash card and have no hard drive at all. Combine with one of those fanless slimline PCs and the whole thing could be silent.

I like the idea of this in theory, but last time I looked there wasn't a CF card big enough for my needs.  I think in a bartop or something I would definately consider this.

[Xiaou2]

heh,   my mame folder is 65 gigs   

 When you add artwork, samples, icons, and other stuff... it adds up.

 
 Btw - it would seem that these solid state drives should whip the pants off a spinning disc...
however,  the results that some are posting arnt as impressive as you might think.   

 For one, I think they shouldnt be using standard SATA interfaces.   Should be some faster port developed
for them...  or a custom card interface...etc.   Not sure how fast the internal bandwidth is on those drives...
but one would think that the connection pipe would be the real limiting factor...

 I saw a setup that uses PC RAM in bunches for Hard Disk emulation.  Its constantly powered with
battery backup - and its speeds are insane!   Of course... the prices are pretty insane for them too.
Still, if one had the money.. booting windows in 2 sec's flat would be da Bomb 

[patrickl]

Ive not have any drives fail (several years).   Ive had 4 drives hooked
up in my custom case for over 3yrs.  And for about 3 yrs, have had 8 drives hooked up in
my new case mod.

Google did their report based on 100,000 drives. They actually found that drives with abnormally low temperatures (cooler than 30C) had the highest failure rates.

They found that the most reliable operating temperature for a drive is somewehere between 37 and 43 degrees celcius.

I have never seen a 64GB compact flash for sale, but if they were then I would guess (based on 32GB CF prices) they would cost somewhere between $300 and $600. Silencing your harddrive is a much cheaper option. A normal hard disk also doesn't have the hassle of trying to prevent disk writes as much as possible.

[Minwah]

The largest compact flash cards out there now are 64 GB.

I thought it was 4GB...guess I am a bit behind 

But still, you can get a terrabyte HDD for next to nothing nowadays...

[Lilwolf]

btw, defrag will help the noise a lot...  (and try and make the chd extra files (whatever they are called) at the end of the drive)

and you shouldn't really be hitting the drive while playing a game...

but I bet you could easily make a platform with mini shocks on them... then mound your drive bay on that.  Bit of rubber tubing, nailing board to that.....  Then drive on board.  (nail -> rubber -> board with whole -> rubber -> cabinet in 4 spots... then mount the drive on the board...

[Xiaou2]

 Who is to say that Google's report is accurate?   Whos to say that they dont have some
behind the scenes deal with HD people?    Whos to know if the UPS guy drop kicked some of
those drives?   Whos to know if the companies that send them,  or the employees that install
them are not grounded to prevent static discharge - thus damaging the controllers?
There is a wealth of data that is missing and can never be known.. yet you accept it as
solid fact?   

 Who has more to gain by fudged numbers?   Certainly not me.   I dont sell HDs, nor case fans... nor
am I a billionaire.   

 You believe what you want to believe.  Ill go by my own experiences and logical deductions.

[CheffoJeffo]

If the drive is getting noisier (as you seem to suspect), it may well be on its way to failure ... building it a hammock should probably rank behind making a backup and getting a replacement drive.

[Hoopz]

Ill go by my own experiences and logical deductions.

[DrewKaree]

Ill go by my own experiences and logical deductions.

This does not compute

[NIVO]

 Who is to say that Google's report is accurate?   Whos to say that they dont have some
behind the scenes deal with HD people?    Whos to know if the UPS guy drop kicked some of
those drives?   Whos to know if the companies that send them,  or the employees that install
them are not grounded to prevent static discharge - thus damaging the controllers?
There is a wealth of data that is missing and can never be known.. yet you accept it as
solid fact?   

 Who has more to gain by fudged numbers?   Certainly not me.   I dont sell HDs, nor case fans... nor
am I a billionaire.   

 You believe what you want to believe.  Ill go by my own experiences and logical deductions.

this isnt whoville  this is arcadecontrols.com

[patrickl]

 Who is to say that Google's report is accurate?

A 100,000 disk test set vs a home user with only a few disks?

Of course the Google report is pretty specific (disks running 24/7 in airconditioned server racks), but any conclusion you draw from your limited test set is useless at best.

Lets assume your hard disks are rated at 400,000 MTBF. That would mean an average annualized failure rate of 2%. With 8 disks running for 3 years that means a 48% chance that one breaks. So if none failed, does that mean that you improved things or simply that it was the 52% chance that no disk would fail?

It's nice that you want to come up with your own conclusions, but if you had any training in probability calculations you'd know you need a much larger test set to draw any reliable conclusions. You'd need to run hundreds of disks and wait for at least some percentage of disk failures before you can estimate the AFR. You'd need to repeat this test in both setups to see if any change occurs. Since I doubt you will be going through all that, I'm afraid you will have to rely on other people's conclusions on the matter.

On the other hand if at first you were running your disks so hot that they were outside of the allowed operating temperatures for the disk, then sure that would ruin them pretty quickly. When you have modern disks running between 35 and 45 degrees Celsius then there's no need to cool them.

[patrickl]

If the drive is getting noisier (as you seem to suspect), it may well be on its way to failure ... building it a hammock should probably rank behind making a backup and getting a replacement drive.

yeah, I was wondering that too, but then Minwah said that it changed after moving it off the carpet. The carpet might have removed some of the vibration noise before.

[Minwah]

yeah, I was wondering that too, but then Minwah said that it changed after moving it off the carpet. The carpet might have removed some of the vibration noise before.

Yes I don't think the drive itself has got noisier (although it's possible). I think carpet somehow absorbed some of the noise or at least made it appear quieter.

[patrickl]

yeah, I was wondering that too, but then Minwah said that it changed after moving it off the carpet. The carpet might have removed some of the vibration noise before.

Yes I don't think the drive itself has got noisier (although it's possible). I think carpet somehow absorbed some of the noise or at least made it appear quieter.

or maybe while moving the cabinet you damaged the disk 

[SavannahLion]

patrickl , there's no point in arguing with X about it. I've run HDD's in computers so hot, I've smoked RAM and melted plastic stand offs and supports. I still have a MB with melted CPU supports and a video card with melted ICs, both are still functional. As for the Hard drives from those computers? They're taking life easy in simple PC's around the house.

But X refuses to consider any experience other than his own. It's a dead end argument. Just point out the facts then let him stew for a while.

[Hoopz]

* Hoopz  grabs a beer and popcorn and waits for the fireworks.

[HaRuMaN]

Round 2?  Countdown to the ban-hammer?   

[Xiaou2]

  Facts?  Where?

  Ohh,  you mean those Assumptions that you call facts right?

 You assume that Google results are fact.  You have no proof of it.   Did you work there?
Did you supervise the Drives there?   Did you hand deliver the drives from the factories
to the Google plant?

 
 On the other hand...


 Anyone who thinks that heat does not effect life expectancies on both electrical and mechanical equipment
needs to go back and hit the books.


  Ive said all I need.  Believe whatever you wish.  But dont tell me that I have to take
Assumptions for facts.

[CheffoJeffo]

* CheffoJeffo tosses HoopZ a beer and asks him to pass the popcorn as we watch the X credibility issue unfold again

[Turnarcades]

Mount the drive using my trusted friend - hot melt glue. It's super-strong, super flexible and bonds to almost anything. Speakers, hard drives, you name it it will work, and dampens noise, disipates heat etc.

Oh, and on another note, I would advise using a mechanical drive over flash any day, particularly for a cabinet. I experimented with flash memory and found they do not like to be used as a hard drive. Eventually the normally insignificant read/write cycles of save states, hi-scores etc. corrupt the drive. At most I'd say go for a 2.5" drive as they are much quieter.

[patrickl]

Facts?  Where?

  Ohh,  you mean those Assumptions that you call facts right?

Are you talking to me? I never even used the word "fact".

You assume that Google results are fact.

Well I do take their word over yours yes.

Anyway, if not to take Googles word, then what is the alternative? Obviously one cannot test this at home and there are very few reports like this actually testing the correlation between temperature and failure rate. Most studies only look at the failure rates and have no data on operating temperatures of the disks. Seagate wrote a report looking at environment temperatures (which would relate in some way to drive temperature), but their research is so obviously flawed (their MTBF estimates are nowhere near actual numbers found in usage tests) and done under unrealistic conditions, that I rather take Google's word over Seagate's word.

Funny thing is that Seagate tests their disks by running them for a month in an oven set at 42 degrees Celsius. So their tech people are basically building disks to run more reliable at this temperature (and then assume that at lower temperatures it will be more reliable too). Now low and behold, modern hard disks are running most reliable at around 40 degrees Celsius.

Anyone who thinks that heat does not effect life expectancies on both electrical and mechanical equipment needs to go back and hit the books.

Again, are you talking to me? I never said "heat" (or temperature) had no impact. Just that under normal conditions, Google found that it isn't the main cause of harddisk failure. I also said that running them too cool was shown to be more harmful than running them slightly hot. I even mentioned a specific temperature range where Google found their disks to most reliable. Last but not least I said that running hard disks over their operational temperature limit (around 55 or 60 degrees celsius) is likely to destroy them quickly. So I actually mentioned alot of correlations between drive failures and temperature.

Ive said all I need.  Believe whatever you wish.  But dont tell me that I have to take Assumptions for facts.

Actually taking assumptions for facts is all you do. It's about be time that you took actual facts for facts.

[Hoopz]

* Hoopz passes the popcorn and the half eaten bucket of wings to Cheffo, then looks around for the footrest. 

* Hoopz also keeps an eye out for any crazy karate dudes who may be looking to waylay the smartasses.

[NickG]

Hey guys I likey this conversation.  Whom here has tried any sort of rubber band suspension on your drives..  I am trying to go silent with an evaporative water cooled rig and have recently noticed my drive noise because my fan noise no longer obfuscates it.  I am wondering which materials you guys have tried.  I have seen the rubber standoffs on the case modding sites, but I have heard that suspension is more effective.  regular rubber bands or elastic bands seem kind of ghetto so I was wondering if any of you have something more industrial/elaborate. 

[patrickl]

regular rubber bands or elastic bands seem kind of ghetto so I was wondering if any of you have something more industrial/elaborate.

I haven't used these myself, but earlier I linked to a review of the NoVibes III HDD Decoupling Rack

BTW if you are afraid of your disk running hot, then the decoupling method is probably not a good idea. The disk then has no way to transfer it's heat to the case.

[Minwah]

or maybe while moving the cabinet you damaged the disk 

Unlikely as my PC board is removable, so it was moved seperately to the cabinet itself. It did have a short car ride, but sat nicely on my back seat

[SavannahLion]

You assume that Google results are fact.

Well I do take their word over yours yes.

 

regular rubber bands or elastic bands seem kind of ghetto so I was wondering if any of you have something more industrial/elaborate. 

Rubber bands, like office type rubber bands? Don't use regular rubber bands under any circumstances. They'll disintegrate or turn to goo regardless of environmental conditions. I have reservations about using any sort of rubber type product to suspend a hard drive. The cloth wound elastics seem to be a good compromise, if the rubber fails (which it is bound to do over time), the cloth will retain the drive until the bands are replaced.

I like to build things and forget about them. So rubber based products typically aren't a part of anything I construct unless they're absolutely necessary and I expect to replace them at some point. Of course, with a HDD, which will come first? Failure of the rubber or the drive?

What about silicon straps like what's offered on sites like this? With the abundance of those silicon bracelets, I imagine someone could fashion something nice up. What's silicon's life expectency?

[Xiaou2]

 So, you take a Corporation's word over a guy who isnt trying to sell you
anything?    Whats my motivation?   To make you buy a fan?!  Get real.


 You say that you never said fact at first... but then at the end, you invert that,
and claim fact.   You even use those 'so called' Facts in your argument.  However,
since you can not prove ANY of those as TRUE FACTS.. you have NO argument...
Only OPINIONS based on what someone told you.



 And finally... You admit heat does effect life expectancies...  yet,  it would appear that
you do not care about life expectancies of the drive.   Life expecancy = Time till cease of
operation  or  FAILURE.   

 Weather or not many drives fail for other reasons is irrelevant.    The argument was about
prolonging a drives life.

 Its my belief based on my experiences of at least 4 drives failing - all of them were
drives mounted above another drive and were scorching hot.   The odds being mere coincidences are fairly high IMOP.    As said, you believe whatever you want..  But claiming
Fact on unverified/unproven  data is something you can not do justly.



 Ohh, and as for the comment on credibility...  Ive already emailed Kev.  He can verify
that info at any time... and so could anyone else.   I loaned Dave Jones my laser printer
for the Rochester gameroom show.   I also was roped into directing parking of cars for
the 1st hour or so of the show.

 Want a post of my Namco paystub too while were at it?   As stated before, I have more
credibility that you ever will.


Documented:
 http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/WNYPinball/message/991