Hard Drive noise damping

[HaRuMaN]

 

 

[CheffoJeffo]

So, you take a Corporation's word over a guy who isnt trying to sell you
anything?    Whats my motivation?   To make you buy a fan?!  Get real.

* CheffoJeffo toddles off to do a Google search for 'paranoid conspiracy theorist'

Yep, Google still works ... maybe they do know something about hard drives after all.

But I'll bet that Xiaou2, running 4 whole hard drives in his Mom's attic in Rochester knows more.

Not so much.

Ohh, and as for the comment on credibility...  Ive already emailed Kev.  He can verify
that info at any time... and so could anyone else.   I loaned Dave Jones my laser printer
for the Rochester gameroom show.   I also was roped into directing parking of cars for
the 1st hour or so of the show.

 Want a post of my Namco paystub too while were at it?   As stated before, I have more
credibility that you ever will.

WTF ?

Steve -- please take the time to read, properly interpret and understand what people are posting.

I never compared your credibility to mine (although I'm not sure that it would be much of a competition at this point!) -- *YOU* called Tim Arnold a liar. *I* said that he has far more credibility that you do with respect to operating pinball machines. If, for some reason, we should believe you instead of believing him, then, by all means, let us know how your tremendously impressive credentials managing a Namco arcade (or parking cars at the game show!!!!) outstrip his credentials as an OP, owner of 7 arcades, genius behind the Pinball Hall Of Fame and, widely acknowledged great pinball guy (to the point where Clay portrays the Shaggy character as a nod).

Or you could just threaten to beat saint up ...

 

Sorry HarumaN, but he's really, really, really hungry!

[patrickl]

So, you take a Corporation's word over a guy who isnt trying to sell you
anything?    Whats my motivation?   To make you buy a fan?!  Get real.

I already explained why. Your study has no value at all since it doesn't meet the requirements for accurate probablity calculations. It doesn't even come close.

As Cheffo Already mentioned. You really do seem to have a hard time reading and understanding. Why do you keep making statements about things I didn't say or act like I'm disagreeing on things where I'm not?

[Jdurg]

Hmmm.  Since when did Google start selling Hard Drives?  How would they be biased?  How do we know that you weren't paid to state what you're saying?  I'm more apt to believe a large study with lots of data and facts than a personal opinion.

[CheffoJeffo]

How do we know that you weren't paid to state what you're saying? 

 

Thank you.

 

[NickG]

Thanks for the links and silicon idea, folks.  I may rig something up with some soft silicon tubing and see how it fares.  I am not worried about conductive heat transfer yet because I think that cool moving air may provide enough heat dissipation if I build this smartly.  hmm...  I may use silicon tubing, maybe I should have some cool water running through it...

[patrickl]

Another suggestion I saw was to put the drive on soft foam on the bottom of the case. That might be easier for Minwah to do.

If the drive starts running hot after decoupling it (lets say over 45C or something), screwing lengths of aluminum U-channel on the sides of the drive seems to help a lot.

There is a whole thread on silentpcreview about HDD Elastic Suspension with lots of DIY solutions and pictures. Many of these decoupling methods look pretty dangerous for when you move the case/cabinet. Some people just hang their drives on some bungee cord. Or like the foam thread where they simply stand it on some foam. I'd really want my drives to be stuck firmly in their position. I guess I'd personally just pay for the Novibes drive cage.

There are some cool ghetto suggestions though:
- The bubble wrap mount
- Suspended in shipping materials
- Disks in a box

[Xiaou2]

 Funny how you are telling me I dont read and understand.  Yet at the same moment,
I never made one threat.   Anyone could see that.    I was responding to what I thought
was a threat aimed at me.     I didnt make a threat... I made a Promise.   A promise that
anyone who dares to come and hunt me down will be damaged severely.   Its called
self defense Idiot.

 Clearly "Dont make me come down there"  can be interpreted in many ways.    In the
heat of the moment, one can sometimes lose their better judgment.

 You and others also Twisted my words to mean other things on purpose.


 They said: " They *somehow* kept their 200  plus machines one step ahead of such break downs."

 My reply:

  "Thats Either that is a Lie, or a mis-interpretation... or something else..."

 
 And on top of that all,  he wasnt even making the correct arguement.   As I had stated,
that the reasons pinball fails is due to something on a machines that is broken.   He
made the argument that  Ops found it easy to keep games from going completely down... where
as I was making the argument that ops could not maintain several pins 100% from all failures,
within a good given time period.   That when dealing with several pins on location,  you will
get at least one failure of Something during a week of time.  (if not many failures in a week)

 Maintaining several pins on busy location spots is not easy, and is too extensive to keep
them working 100% all the time... which equates to frustereated players who decided not
to put their money into the things anymore cause they are tired of an getting a game
that does not work as its supposed to.


 Twist my words again Chefo- Idioto.


----

 As for a HD cage...   you could actually make a simple version using metal strips. 

 Get 4 strips of metal. (or 2 long strips)  Drill a hole in each strip on both ends.  One end will be used
to mount to the  drive. 

 The other end,  attach keyrings or similar - which you can attach bungee or other
tube/belts..etc. to.


 As for Heat dissipation on HD's thru the case..  that actually almost non-existent.   Most
the heat seems to eminate from the top of the drive.   The side is very cool comparatively.   

 A fan will provide like 95% more dissapation than the probably 5% disapation that the case
would supposedly provide.   Cases are very poor heat sinks.  They arnt desiged to be.
The are thin metal merely for cost, and grounding.


  Which does bring a good point.   When suspending a HD.  make sure to attach a loose grounding
wire from one of the HDs screws to a place on the case... or tie it into something that grounds.
That way static will not buildup and cause damages to the drive.

[patrickl]

In the heat of the moment, one can sometimes lose their better judgment.

and then there are some who don't have it to begin with 

[Xiaou2]

 I guess twisting someones words also equates to better judgment?

 Your far from one to talk about judgments or intelligence.

[CheffoJeffo]

Funny how you are telling me I dont read and understand.

 You and others also Twisted my words to mean other things on purpose.

 They said: " They *somehow* kept their 200  plus machines one step ahead of such break downs."

 My reply:  "Thats Either that is a Lie, or a mis-interpretation... or something else..."

Steve -- if you are going to refer to threads that are actually still available, you had best learn some quote-fu -- one of the reasons that people don't like your complete inability to master the quote features in SMF is that you choose to make stuff up and insert it in your already-poorly-formatted postings instead of providing accurate quotes and links.

If you reread (or, I guess, read, since you didn't bother the first time) the post that I made in this thread, I was referring to how you called Tim Arnold  a liar, not someone who posted in that thread. I could understand you missing this point had I not mentioned Tim Arnold by name, but since I did mention him by name, the only conclusion that I am left with is that you aren't able/willing to take the time to understand what is being posted.

To recap, in the article in question, Tim Arnold (NOT Gary Stern as you have completely failed to grasp) said that the reason that pinball has died off is that there aren't machines out there to play. You replied Wrong! and proceeded into your partially-correct, but still misleading, diatribe about the reliability of pinball machines. Later in that same thread, you called Tim Arnold a liar. You also called other folks liars, and I questioned your credibility compared to those whom you called liars (including Gary Stern, although you were mistaken when you called him a liar).

Blah article on pinball
He's right, the problem is there is nowhere to play pinball.
But Stern says pinball will still be around in 10 yrs
NY Times Article

Wrong!!!

People put pins on location all the time.   In bars, laundry, pizza joints, rest stops, and more.

The reason pinball died was due to the fact that they are poorly designed.   They fail too
often... and those failures cause the gameplay to be too terrible for a player to waste money on.

It also proves that his answer was a lie.  There are places to play.

You realize it was Tim Arnold, not Gary Stern, who said that, right ?

“The thing that’s killing pinball,” Mr. Arnold added, “is not that people don’t like it. It’s that there’s nowhere to play it.”

Corner shops, pubs, arcades and bowling alleys stopped stocking pinball machines. A younger audience turned to video games. Men of a certain age, said Mr. Arnold, who is 52, became the reliable audience. (“Chicks,” he announced, “don’t get it.”)

Let me get this straight ... we have had to endure your rantings, along with your personal insults ... because you're comprehensionally-impaired ?

 

You have chosen to reinterpret the reality of what was said based on your failed comprehension and resort, once again, to personal insults instead of intelligent discourse about what was actually posted.

I'd also say that it was pretty clear to anybody with a pulse that saint wasn't threatening you -- you however chose to respond with a threat of violence. Peale even pointed out that saint wasn't threatening you.

If you can't be bothered to know who you are responding to, how can we believe that you take the time to understand what you are responding to ?

For my part, I have not and will not threaten anybody with physical harm -- the Internet Tough Guy(tm) label belonged to tommy, but has now apparently passed to you. I had assumed that this was a result of your inability to actually maintain a coherent train of thought and argue the merits.

FWIW, I don't think that the anonymous nobody label applies to me -- I suspect that more people here know me in the RealWorld(tm) than know you. I believe that you helped some of them park their cars. I'm not particularly hard to find and am usually pretty easy to get along with ... right up until you call people names and ignore what they say.

As saint has pointed out, sometimes people post without thinking (at least I think that was his explanation for what you did), so we should give them a second chance.

I tend to agree ... but, lo and behold, the first chance you got, you chose to resume your personal attacks and ignore what is actually posted.

Maybe he was wrong.

 

[Xiaou2]

instead of providing accurate quotes

 I provided an accurate quote just as listed above.  I have no need to make things up.
Im not caught up in my own ego like some others here.

 If I choose to quote in another manor, that is my choice  Mr. Board Nazi.
I dont force anyone to read my posts.. nor do I tell others how they should post.


 My mistake for getting a name wrong.  However, my points are still on par IMOP.


 As for your info where I called others liars..  well, thats funny cause I dont see that
quoted?   

 As for Calling Tim a liar about maintenance,  I basically did so conditionally:  Only if he said that he
could keep pins running without any maintenance issues in a week.   Im talking any flaws
whatsoever.    As anyone with more than 10 pins in busy locations is going to have at least one problem of some sort in a weeks time.   
 
 Anyone involved in pinball should easily know this.

 It was the posters argument that was misleading,  as he misunderstood the entire
argument and only took my meaning to mean  a game that powers up and is playable.  Not
a game that has mechanical flaws.

 
 You say I cant grasp the issues... and yet, theres one more poster besides yourself
who doesnt even grasp the arguments.


 Personal insults instead of intelligent discourse

 Lol.  Your a trip.  Why dont you start looking thru the various postings to see who starts
throwing insults first!   And how I usually restrain my retorts until more than one such remarks
is sent my way.

I'd also say that it was pretty clear to anybody with a pulse that saint wasn't threatening you -- you however chose to respond with a threat of violence. Peale even pointed out that saint wasn't threatening you.


 I had several board punks on my case.. one of which said that it was mentioned that
there was talk of people coming down to visit me.   

 Had I a chance to calm down, I would have realized Saints meaning.  However, since I was
wrongly banned,  I had no change to retract my post.

chose to resume your personal attacks

  Where do you see that?

 Nowhere. 

  All you are is a worthless button pusher who things that you can get away with
your hypnosis routine to fool the mindless suckers into getting your way.

 No, I never once made any threat.   I merely made a warning.   

 I am a highly skilled artist, trained in lethal techniques which I have mastered over
years of dedication.   I do not take ANY personal attack as a 'play'  fight.   If one is stupid
enough to do so,  they are gambling with their life.   I dont gamble.  I dont play.

 I dont hold back like some others might.   If someone decides they even want to consider
testing me... they had better be warned of that fact.   For their own safety, and for the record
of the courts if/when  their family members try to sue me for the results.

 
 There are plenty of internet bullies here.  Mostly deal in psychological crap.   Its no wonder
why there are many nice people who choose not to post in forums, merely because of these
jerks. 

 Im very familiar with people like this, as Ive dealt with their abuses all my life... and Im tired of
taking it instead of dishing it right back.   Exposing those people for the real turds they really are.


 I also find it great how you try to demean me for helping out with the show by directing cars.
Shows how low of a person you really are.

[boogieman]

  
  
  

*Wish I had some of that popcorn... and maybe the last 5 minutes of my life back wasted reading this LOL   

[Xiaou2]

 
 You wasted another 1 posting a pathetic instigative reply,  while you could have been doing
something positive or useful.

 I guess you should have a look in the mirror before you make a judgment call.

[Hoopz]

* Hoopz throws some popcorn and hands a beer to the boogieman then questions why he is hanging with a guy named the boogieman.

[Hoopz]

* Hoopz appreciates the fact that he has a scary dude like the boogieman watching his back now as they drink beer and watch out for the crazy karate dudes.

[patrickl]

No, I never once made any threat.   I merely made a warning.

And that's different how?

From the dictionary:

threat1 [θret] noun
a warning that one is going to hurt or punish someone

I had several board punks on my case.. one of which said that it was mentioned that
there was talk of people coming down to visit me.

Before your threat there was only one post on the subject and it contained a direct and full quote of saints post. It was from HarumaN, who is neither a punk nor "on your case". Besides, you had about half an hour to cool down and realize your mistake. You were even warned by someone.

The only thing that was "wrongly" about your ban was that it was too short.

merely because of these jerks. ...
Exposing those people for the real turds they really are.

Do you have any idea why just about everybody here is getting so fed up with you?
- It's just impossible to have a useful discussion with you, because you see every disagreement as a personal insult. Whatever you say should be taken as the ultimate truth since you are an accomplished <fill in whatever you claim to be the expert in at the time>
- You are unable or unwilling to understand what you are reading and instead you seem to base your posts on some wild imagination of what you assume other people post
- Your posts are (purposefully) unreadable

All this shows your utter lack of respect for all people on this form. Which in fact makes you the jerk/turd

As a case study, if you want to know where this thread went wrong then this is the post where you started it. This post nets you 3 insults as a return. I post a polite reply demonstrating the mathematical inaccuracies of your "study" and you reply with an even bolder insult. From there you break down into your usual loon act and people start popping their corn.

[CheffoJeffo]

+1 Ignore

EDIT: It just occured to me that perhaps it looked like I was replying to patrickl in my +1 Ignore post -- sorry -- that honour was reserved for Xiaou2. Sorry -- was at the cottage and on a slow connection -- my turn for poor quote-fu. Apologies. 

[Hoopz]

+1 Ignore

Is that a threat or a warning?

 

[CheffoJeffo]

+1 Ignore

Is that a threat or a warning?
 

Just make sure that your affairs are in order ...

 

[patrickl]

+1 Ignore

Is that a threat or a warning?
 

Just make sure that your affairs are in order ...

 

Did you look in the mirror before you made that judgment call? 

I guess I better add mine too.

[CheffoJeffo]

I just figure that saint would prefer that I simply ignore Xiaou2 instead of engaging him to the point that he goes all trannyq/shorthair/suits00/hayabusa/genesim/tommy all over the place.

 

EDIT2: I had already ignored Xiaou2 when I got to patrickl's post .. and hence missed his totally funny and appropriate comment. 

[Xiaou2]

From the dictionary:

threat1 [θret] noun
a warning that one is going to hurt or punish someone

 A Threat:  Im gona kick your butt next time I see you.

 A Warning:  If you put your hands on me,  I will react negatively.

 Theres a HUGE difference, and Anyone with any sense can understand that.
I feel as if Im talking with infants.

  Do you have any idea why just about everybody here is getting so fed up with you?

 Everyone?!  A little presumptuous  arent we?!   How about this:   You are a Nazi who
cant accept people who have different viewpoints or opinions.

- It's just impossible to have a useful discussion with you, because you see every disagreement as a personal insult.

 Nope.  The insults are thrown only after there is a disagreement... and they are from Nazi's like
yourself.

All this shows your utter lack of respect for all people on this form. Which in fact makes you the jerk/turd

 lol.   Respect?   Your one to talk about respect!   Most all the Punk posters who decide to rail
insults my way are the worst offenders of "Respect"  here. 

As a case study, if you want to know where this thread went wrong then this is the post where you started it. This post nets you 3 insults as a return. I post a polite reply demonstrating the mathematical inaccuracies of your "study" and you reply with an even bolder insult. From there you break down into your usual loon act and people start popping their corn.

  Basically, you proved my point.   You have the OPINION that the Google study is Valid.   I choose not
to believe it.    I tell you to believe what you want.... instead of trying to argue with an OPINION.   
 
 But, what I get is  Personal Attacks and Insults merely because I choose not to believe in
what you believe.   

 This is why you and your not so merry gang are in fact Turds.  The board Nazi's.
You simply cant handle anyone who disagrees with you.  It drives you to insanity... and so you
feel you have to resort to insults to cope with it. 

[saint]

 

This thread is shortly to get the shears if not steered back on track. Thanks.

[patrickl]

  Basically, you proved my point.   You have the OPINION that the Google study is Valid.   I choose not
to believe it.    I tell you to believe what you want.... instead of trying to argue with an OPINION.   
 
 But, what I get is  Personal Attacks and Insults merely because I choose not to believe in
what you believe.   

I have no problem when you disagree with me. I only require that you came with some proper facts or at least some reasoning why Google should be wrong. There is no need to start insulting me like I'm some idiot who believes everything on the internet. I'm not someone who goes around introducing people to the concept of 'death trains'.

I run my own company and in that capacity I oversee computer hardware with in total around 30 hard disks. Most of them running 24/7. With a fair share of harddisk failures over the years and several high availability applications running, I have a higher than average interest in the subject. I monitor the temperature of most hard disks continuously with emails going out if a disk overheats.

Actually none of that is really important to the debate, it has nothing to do with my opinion either. Even if I had agreed on your conclusion I would have posted the same. In fact I don't think we really differ that much on the conclusion, although you keep misinterpreting my opinion. All we differ on is that I'm taking Google's take that cooling disks below 37 degrees Celcius is worse and not better for your disks.

What I did do was tosimply explain that your study is flawed and that a 8 disk test set is not big enough to draw any useful conclusions from. Anyone with basic education in probability calculations could tell you that your findings are not significant. No other experience or credentials are needed for that. if you make false claims then you can be sure that people will correct you. BTW I'm talking about your suggestion that your home run test has any weight and not on whether disks perform better at room temperature.

Sure you can have your own opinion, but if you start trying to persuade people that your opinion is right, you better have something more to back this opinion up. What have you offered besides insults and assumptions  that Google could conceivably be lying. Of which again you have not been able to give us even a shred of evidence.

Besides there is plenty to talk about iof you want to discuss opinion without resorting to insulting me. For instance, you say that I should "hit the books" if I'm stupid enough not to think heat has an impact on the workings of a hard disk. I'll let it slide that I never claimed that temperature has no effect on hard disks, but let me bounce that argument back at you. With the tolerances and engineering of hard disks, there will obviously be an optimal temperature where they function best. Make it too hot and things start to run out of tolerances, but this also happens if you make it too cold. If the disk is running at the optimal temperature the life will be longest.

Now how does this optimal temperature get so high? I suggest that it is because disk manufacturers measure hard disks performance in a 42 degree oven (in an effort to speed up it's aging). Makes sense that that this testing behavior actually steered hard disk tolerances to conform to this test methodology and thus that hard disks perform better around this 42 degree test temperature? Besides, leave a harddisk spinning in a standard case and it will reach a temperature of around 40 degrees on it's own (plus or minus 5 degrees or so). So from that observation it makes perfect sense that disks work best in that temperature range.

So we have:
- Google ran statistics on data on their 100,000 harddisks over years and found that the optimal operating temperature for a hard disk is around 40 degrees Celsius (on average)
- Google shows that cold disks actually break more often than slightly hot disks
- Google has the only reliable real life data/research on this subject either of us could find
- Google is a renowned organization and the people who performed the tests are well known scholars. Neither has a financial interest in telling people to stop cooling their disks.
- Both the test temperature at which reliablity tests are performed and the natural temperature that a hard disk will reach in a standard PC case is around this optimal temperature.
- Maybe most importantly, their findings simply make perfect sense

On the other hand we have ... well nothing actually:
- You had some disks fail that were searing hot. This complies with Googles findings and common sense that you should not run a disk outside of the manufacturer reported maximum temperature of around 55 to 60 degrees Celsius.
- You have had 8 disks running for 3 years with no disk failing. There is a calculated 52% probability of this happening so that's hardly a significant finding. Besides the test set is too small anyway.
- You have done no tests on different operating temperatures within hard disk operating limits. Let alone a test with hundreds if not thousands of disks to be able to get any significant findings. So you have no findings proving that Google's research is incorrect.

Again, temperature IS an issue with hard disks, but in a normal application there should not be a problem. On the other hand, if you modify your hardware in some ways, like for instance decoupling the disk to get rid of the noise, one should really keep an eye on the temperature since it might overheat the disk. I warned of this a few times already.