Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up Try the site in https mode Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: Calling all legal eagles!!  (Read 6745 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

havic626

  • -banned-
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108
  • Last login:August 05, 2012, 05:11:42 am
Calling all legal eagles!!
« on: March 22, 2008, 08:59:33 pm »
A friend of mine runs a small business and loves the idea of a building a jukebox and mame machine.  He would to have one of each in his bar, but is this legal?  Both would be free of charge and the music he plans to carry is all music we went out and bought.  Any ideas or knowledge out there?
 ???

AussieJuke

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 71
  • Last login:October 18, 2011, 02:22:10 am
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2008, 10:10:51 pm »
As for the music, it's public performance so he's need to pay for that.
You don't say what country you're in so YMMV.

Kevin Mullins

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4504
  • Last login:February 01, 2021, 01:29:34 pm
    • Me on Myspace
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2008, 12:18:31 am »
You don't say what country you're in so YMMV.

His profile does though.....

California, USA

And as for the MAME machine...... No
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 12:21:09 am by Kevin Mullins »
Not a technician . . . . just a DIY'er.

BradC

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 182
  • Last login:December 22, 2010, 05:56:28 pm
    • My First Arcade Cabinet
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 11:05:40 am »
He will likely need to contact ASCAP and/or BMI to figure out how much he needs to pay for the music that will play from the jukebox. As Kevin mentions above, the MAME will definately not be legal.

havic626

  • -banned-
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108
  • Last login:August 05, 2012, 05:11:42 am
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 12:26:26 am »
As for the music, it's public performance so he's need to pay for that.
You don't say what country you're in so YMMV.
im wondering if someone is playing there music incredibly loud from there house or car were i can hear it 2 blocks away is that considered a public performance?

AussieJuke

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 71
  • Last login:October 18, 2011, 02:22:10 am
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 04:42:01 am »
As for the music, it's public performance so he's need to pay for that.
You don't say what country you're in so YMMV.
im wondering if someone is playing there music incredibly loud from there house or car were i can hear it 2 blocks away is that considered a public performance?

No no no ... that's a public nuisance!  :laugh2:

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1753
  • Last login:July 11, 2025, 12:17:29 pm
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 02:04:07 pm »
This is usually only an issue when it's a business.  I remember reading about a auto-body shop got charged royalties when one of these IDIOTS from ASCAP/BMI or whatever walked buy the garage and they were playing a radio loud enough for customers to hear, they said it was technically public performance and they had to pay royalties.

It's sickening.

havic626

  • -banned-
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108
  • Last login:August 05, 2012, 05:11:42 am
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 07:39:01 am »
This is usually only an issue when it's a business.  I remember reading about a auto-body shop got charged royalties when one of these IDIOTS from ASCAP/BMI or whatever walked buy the garage and they were playing a radio loud enough for customers to hear, they said it was technically public performance and they had to pay royalties.

It's sickening.
is it just me or are the bmi people just want a reason to get paid?  I never knew you had to pay to play your music at a certain volume.

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1753
  • Last login:July 11, 2025, 12:17:29 pm
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 01:14:36 pm »
It's not so much volume, it's audience.  If you're "broadcasting" it through the doors of your business you're technically presenting it for performance so you have to pay.

BMI sucks, is basically what it boils down to.

BradC

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 182
  • Last login:December 22, 2010, 05:56:28 pm
    • My First Arcade Cabinet
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2008, 11:19:33 am »
BMI sucks, is basically what it boils down to.

It depends on who you are. If you're an artist, BMI is the better one IMO because they pay the artists more and they are a smaller operation. ASCAP is the "big corporate" association, which is not so good for the struggling artist.

As a business owner however, dealing with ASCAP is probably better because they won't pull the stuff that BMI does trying to get as much money as they can.

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1753
  • Last login:July 11, 2025, 12:17:29 pm
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2008, 12:34:01 pm »
I'm disgusted with the industry in general, so granted I'm biased.

It sickens me how little the artists get in royalties, and how many are regularly screwed for back royalties.  And...  looking at the RIAA and how they sued these college kids for thousands ... and gave almost NONE OF IT TO THE ARTISTS.  :soapbox:

That's a whole other thread though :)

Ken Layton

  • Guru
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7061
  • Last login:October 12, 2021, 12:25:59 am
  • Technician
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2008, 12:31:13 pm »
This is what you need for a jukebox license:

http://www.jukeboxlicense.com/

The Jukebox License Office is a 'one-stop' clearinghouse for commercially manufactured jukeboxes to be properly licensed in commercial use/establishments. No license is needed in home use. The jukebox copyright license clears you with all three performing rights groups: ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC for a period of one year.

If you have a homemade jukebox, then you must negociate a license SEPERATELY with each of the three performing rights groups! This can get very very costly.

Remember, don't think you can get away without that license. These groups play hardball all the time. They ALWAYS win in court!

FrizzleFried

  • no one listens to me anyway.
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5145
  • Last login:March 07, 2025, 10:44:09 am
    • Idaho Garagecade
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2008, 01:27:25 pm »
$419.00 for a single box for a year...that's more than a buck a day to have the juke...
Visit my arcade blog at: www.idahogaragecade.com (Updated 10-28-21)

Kevin Mullins

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4504
  • Last login:February 01, 2021, 01:29:34 pm
    • Me on Myspace
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2008, 03:49:32 pm »
Hmmm... alot of details that could be mis-interpreted.

Quote
2. Limitations on License
(a) This license covers only “coin-operated phonorecord players,” as defined in this Jukebox License Agreement and this
license does not cover video jukeboxes or digital jukeboxes, including but not limited to any device which: (i) receives and/or
sends transmissions (i.e. downloads or streams) of musical works; and/or (ii) employs a hard drive for the storage of digital
phonorecords or other recorded musical compositions.

I've thought about building and renting digital jukeboxes for "personal" use. (personal parties and such)
Wonder what that sort of thing falls under ?
Obviously local tax license laws and such need looked into as well as any else.
Not a technician . . . . just a DIY'er.

DaOld Man

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5158
  • Last login:May 24, 2025, 09:57:44 pm
  • Wheres my coffee?
    • Skenny's Outpost
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2008, 09:59:59 am »
I hate lawyers (hate is such a mild word, in this case).
I'm starting to hate the recording industry too.
They work for us.
If we didnt buy their product, how long would they last?
It's like going into work and telling your boss, hey, I helped build that machine, or I wrote the code that runs it, I got a right to it, you cant do anything with it unless you have my written permission.
How long would that fly?

Ken Layton

  • Guru
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7061
  • Last login:October 12, 2021, 12:25:59 am
  • Technician
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2008, 11:15:38 am »
Hmmm... alot of details that could be mis-interpreted.

Quote
2. Limitations on License
(a) This license covers only “coin-operated phonorecord players,” as defined in this Jukebox License Agreement and this
license does not cover video jukeboxes or digital jukeboxes, including but not limited to any device which: (i) receives and/or
sends transmissions (i.e. downloads or streams) of musical works; and/or (ii) employs a hard drive for the storage of digital
phonorecords or other recorded musical compositions.

I've thought about building and renting digital jukeboxes for "personal" use. (personal parties and such)
Wonder what that sort of thing falls under ?
Obviously local tax license laws and such need looked into as well as any else.

You're making money and providing an incentive for your business. ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC will each want a license from you---every year!

padstack

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 265
  • Last login:February 03, 2024, 12:54:24 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2008, 11:24:43 pm »
Hmmm... alot of details that could be mis-interpreted.

Quote
2. Limitations on License
(a) This license covers only “coin-operated phonorecord players,” as defined in this Jukebox License Agreement and this
license does not cover video jukeboxes or digital jukeboxes, including but not limited to any device which: (i) receives and/or
sends transmissions (i.e. downloads or streams) of musical works; and/or (ii) employs a hard drive for the storage of digital
phonorecords or other recorded musical compositions.

I've thought about building and renting digital jukeboxes for "personal" use. (personal parties and such)
Wonder what that sort of thing falls under ?
Obviously local tax license laws and such need looked into as well as any else.

You're making money and providing an incentive for your business. ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC will each want a license from you---every year!

So if I build a juke and have a couple parties a year, they could bust me?  I'm seriously not trying to be a smart-ass.  I just didn't see where he said that he was going to charge or anything.  If I have to get a license to play music at a house party, then it's time for a revolution!  :)

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1753
  • Last login:July 11, 2025, 12:17:29 pm
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2008, 08:05:27 am »
You're talking about letter of the law here.  I mean, if you follow the "letter of the law", you probably should be in jail for the next 30 years and owe 5 million dollars in royalties for any *ahem* questionably obtained MP3's or ROMS that you have that you don't own the license to.

Think of it that way.

Seeburg Digital

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
  • Last login:October 02, 2008, 11:21:08 am
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2008, 10:39:38 am »
As noted in Reply #13, the Jukebox Licence Office (J.L.O.) license, as of January 2007, is no longer usable for any jukeboxes containing hard drive storage media.

Hard drive based jukeboxes now require individual licensing from ASCAP, BMI & SESAC separately, and, only if you install music from artists which are members of any one of (or any/all of) the "PROs" (Performing Rights Organizations). All three PROs have a search function on their web sites so you can see which artists and which songs they represent. If your artist and song/s are not listed by any of the three, you would need to negotiate licensing with the copyright holder of each song individually. (not likely to happen)

The new "Digital Jukebox" licenses (which, yes, is a totally incorrect reference, since CD's are digital too) available from ASCAP & BMI also require submission of quarterly "Use Reports", basically popularity meters and song ID information, which they use to determine how to split up the license fees to the artists. Also these licenses do not cover jukeboxes with Internet connections, they must be stand alone. e-Cast, AMI & Touchtunes currently have the only "Digital Jukebox" license which covers Internet connected jukes in the USA. Mainly due to security of the music. It must be encrypted even on the jukebox's drive to prevent unauthorized accessing of the music.

There's no point in arguing how fair and how costly licensing may or not be simply because it IS federal copyright law. (not just in the USA either, most commercial jukeboxes around the world require similar licensing) While you might, for a short time, operate a jukebox commercially without licensing, you will eventually be caught. If not by ASCAP or BMI's on-going investigations, another near by 'location' (business with a jukebox that is paying for licensing), local jukebox operators, a disgruntled patron, and even some DJ's WILL turn you in!

Checking local & state laws is also important. While these will not be copyright licenses, some areas do have a tax or some fee (what ever they call it) on coin operated equipment in general. In some cases a local or state jukebox fee will be less than a video or pinball game.

Another issue of commercial use is of course, copying. Since the above mentioned licensing says they can't be connected to the Internet, you effectively can't get music into the jukebox with out some form of copying. Don't fool yourself, ripping CDs is a copy! While this may be over looked for personal use, commercially it may not! The only solution here is to buy MP3s from sites like Amazon or Wallmart, save them directly to an external flash or other storage media, (something that can't in itself play the music) and when you install the music into the jukebox, the jukebox software must automatically do a 'move' not a copy (yes, there is a difference) from the portable media to insure there is no copy of the song file/s left behind. Sure, that's all a matter of trust, but at upwards of $10,000 fine per-song, it's best to comply! Remember, the required "Use Report" contains song IDs, copying could be traced. While both Amazon and Wallmart (and most other on-line music sources) specifically state for personal use, or non-commercial use, the PROs licensing covers that. Officially that's what their for, commercial use of non-commercial use music.
USA copyright law can be found here:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/


« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 11:21:31 am by Seeburg Digital »

HaRuMaN

  • Supreme Solder King
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+45)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10328
  • Last login:July 14, 2025, 02:03:34 pm
  • boom
    • Arcade Madness
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2008, 11:00:36 am »
Wow... creating an account and ressurecting a 4 month old thread to advertise your website / product...   ::)

Ken Layton

  • Guru
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7061
  • Last login:October 12, 2021, 12:25:59 am
  • Technician
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2008, 10:28:52 pm »
And don't forget that Rowe-Ami, eCast, and Touchtunes hold several patents on hard drive jukeboxes and internet ("downloader") jukebox technology. Those companies actively persue anyone or any company infringing their patents.

panama1974

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 34
  • Last login:June 15, 2014, 08:22:30 am
Re: Calling all legal eagles!!
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2008, 06:23:39 pm »
 :cry:     ??? 

   
Hello in panama every jukebox will pay 520.00 dollars royalties annually, and is 8 track for every dollar , for months the jukebox give approximately 400.00 dollar, here in panama is paid little more royalties and profits.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 06:26:12 pm by panama1974 »