Wire keeps coming out of crimp connectors.

[Chris2]

I'm trying to wire up the ground on my CP, but the wires connected to the ground on the microswitch keeping coming undone. Right now, I'm usually tying the two wire ends together, sticking them both in a crimp connector, then attaching the crimp connector to the ground on the microswitch, yet this doesn't always work. Does anyone know of a better method?

[pcb]

Are you using the correct size crimp connectors?  And are you crimping them on the wire?

Using a tool something like this?

http://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=TKCRIMP25

[TheShanMan]

And what is the gauge of the wire? If it's too high then it won't crimp well. My old keyboard hack used IDE ribbon cable and I was constantly battling the wires coming out of the connectors because ribbon cable wire is too small.

[RayB]

I solder them in, as I don't trust my crimping either.

[ChadTower]

Do you prefer to crimp, or solder your Molex connectors?

How to Perform a Good Connector Crimp

Quick Disconnects

[MaximRecoil]

I'm trying to wire up the ground on my CP, but the wires connected to the ground on the microswitch keeping coming undone. Right now, I'm usually tying the two wire ends together, sticking them both in a crimp connector, then attaching the crimp connector to the ground on the microswitch, yet this doesn't always work. Does anyone know of a better method?

The best, most secure method for wiring a ground loop is to use a single long wire and cut off about half-inch sections of the insulation in each spot where a crimp connector will go. Then fold and twist the bare wire sections and crimp the connectors onto them.

I got the idea from someone else on this board who got the idea from his father. He also posted good pictures to illustrate, but I can't remember who it was.

It is the only way I would consider wiring a ground loop now.

[TheShanMan]

The best, most secure method for wiring a ground loop is to use a single long wire and cut off about half-inch sections of the insulation in each spot where a crimp connector will go. Then fold and twist the bare wire sections and crimp the connectors onto them.

That's a good idea, but what's the easiest way to get the insulation off in the middle, other than a lighter?

[MaximRecoil]

That's a good idea, but what's the easiest way to get the insulation off in the middle, other than a lighter?

I just used a utility knife. I rolled the knife around the insulation (not too much pressure or you will cut into the copper wire strands) at the points where I wanted the bare section to start and end, and then layed the wire flat on the table and sliced down the center of the section of insulation, from the starting cut to the ending cut. The section of insulation will then pull right off.

Edit: Okay, I found the post with the pictures:

Here's a little update of the wiring job I did so far. I didn't want to solder anything as all switches can can take quick disconnects. This made it for me easier. It made it also more flexible if I want to change something.

I started with the ground (black wire). For the inputs I used red wire. My father in law sat down next to me when I did the wiring. I explained what my plan was (this used to be part of his job) and he said how I could do that the most easiest and cleanest way. I used little loops to wire the ground contacts. When you do it like this you can use one long wire without ever cutting it for except the terminating quick disconnect.

Make two cuts in the wire and remove the part between the two cuts...


Bend the cleaned wire and put it in the quick disconnect.


Finally, press the quick disconnect together and connect the quick disconnect to the contact.
For the next contact measure the wire that you need by dragging it to the next contact and
repeat it from picture one. Thatīs all!
Here you can see the little loops. The starting point here is the top right quick disconnect (that was
changed later on for convenience).

[TheShanMan]

Thanks, but is that really better than just cutting the wire, stripping them as you normally would, and putting both wires in together and crimping them? Seems like that would be faster and less prone to cutting the wires.

[MaximRecoil]

Thanks, but is that really better than just cutting the wire, stripping them as you normally would, and putting both wires in together and crimping them? Seems like that would be faster and less prone to cutting the wires.

It is better IMO. It allows for a greater margin for error when crimping, and ensures that one of the wires won't pull out of the crimp. It also is a better electrical connection by default. Continuous strands of wire are better than wire that is twisted together. Wires that have been twisted together can oxidize which affects the electrical connection. In most cases there probably won't be a problem, but if there is a cleaner, more secure method available, I'll do it just because I like the concept.

As to being prone to "cutting the wires", I assume you mean when removing the sections of insulation? I can remove the sections of insulation without cutting the wires. I don't know if you can or not.

[TheShanMan]

Good points, but I doubt oxidation would become a problem before most of our control panels are scrapped. In other words, the lifetime of control panels probably tends to be less than the time where oxidation becomes a problem.

Sure, I can cut without damaging the wires, but it takes more care than using a stripper and therefore takes more time. I think it's a cool idea, but I don't see any practical downside to cutting and stripping in order to save some time.

[MaximRecoil]

Good points, but I doubt oxidation would become a problem before most of our control panels are scrapped. In other words, the lifetime of control panels probably tends to be less than the time where oxidation becomes a problem.

I said as much in my last post.

Sure, I can cut without damaging the wires, but it takes more care than using a stripper and therefore takes more time. I think it's a cool idea, but I don't see any practical downside to cutting and stripping in order to save some time.

You are likely only going to do it once, and it doesn't take much, if any, extra time anyway. I simply took a long piece of wire and routed it to the first microswitch and made a sharp bend in the wire, then I went to the next and made another sharp bend, and so on. That took less than 5 minutes. Then I took the wire and sat it on the table, and cut the insulation off at each point where I made the sharp bends. That took about another 5 minutes. Then I crimped on all the connectors and installed the ground loop, which was probably another 5 minutes.

[Guaranos]

I used crimp on connectors initially, but eventually had one work its way free.  I ended up just soldering everything, and haven't had a loose connection since.

[Sir Auros]

I crimp, but next time I'm doing a ground loop, I'm going to do it all with one piece of wire. Yeah, it might take more time, but it'd be worth it for the additional secureness of the wire as well as neatness.

[ChadTower]

It's a nice idea but if you crimp properly it shouldn't matter.  If you pull hard on a proper crimp the wire will snap before the crimp comes loose.

[MaximRecoil]

It's a nice idea but if you crimp properly it shouldn't matter.  If you pull hard on a proper crimp the wire will snap before the crimp comes loose.

There is more that can go wrong when crimping twisted-together wires than when crimping a single wire. To illustrate this, try twisting 3, 4, or more, say, 18 gauge wires together and then crimping them in a QD, butt connector, splice cap, or whatever. Chances are you'll be able to pull at least one of them out without breaking the wire. 

Wires that are twisted together can separate off to the side some as the crimp squeezes down, leaving one of them in tight and the other(s), not so tight. I'm not saying it is impossible, or even difficult, to get a proper crimp on two wires twisted together (though it becomes increasingly difficult the more wires you add); but the single wire method is clearly better for a few reasons.

Also, why put breaks in your wire when you don't need to? Would you go through the rest of the wiring in your machine, cutting it every 6 inches and twisting/splice capping it back together for no good reason?

[ChadTower]

You're being too aggressive and stomping the eff out of some poor guy unnecessarily again.  People get your point.  Not everyone is in awe of it.  Some people feel differently than you do.  Accept it.

Proper crimp skill means either method works just fine.  The difference between the two is pretty much irrelevant in this context.

[MaximRecoil]

You're being too aggressive and stomping the eff out of some poor guy unnecessarily again.  People get your point.  Not everyone is in awe of it.  Some people feel differently than you do.  Accept it.

If someone wants to argue with me then I'll accommodate them. Scroll up.

Proper crimp skill means either method works just fine.  The difference between the two is pretty much irrelevant in this context.

This doesn't have much to do with "skill". And again, why don't you tell me what the point is of making a couple of dozen unnecessary breaks in the wire is? Name any electrical situation where adding superfluous breaks/twists/crimps is considered good practice or ideal. It obviously doesn't improve the connection over a solid run of wire, and can potentially make things worse—so why do it if you don't have to?

[fjl]

The fold in the wire can be too big to fit into the crimp.

If anything is falling out after you crimp it could be caused by a number of things. Bad crimper tool, bad crimp or wrong size crimp or wire or both. You don't use a 24 gauge crimp if you plan to fit two 24 gauge wires into one crimp to daisy chain them.

[somunny]

It probably won't make a difference, but it looks like he crimped the lugs with the wrong crimper.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you're supposed to use a cleat on an insulated connector.  It can damage the insulation.

[TheShanMan]

Proper crimp skill means either method works just fine.  The difference between the two is pretty much irrelevant in this context.

This doesn't have much to do with "skill". And again, why don't you tell me what the point is of making a couple of dozen unnecessary breaks in the wire is? Name any electrical situation where adding superfluous breaks/twists/crimps is considered good practice or ideal. It obviously doesn't improve the connection over a solid run of wire, and can potentially make things worse—so why do it if you don't have to?

Sure, there are plenty of situations in electronics where this could be quite non-ideal, but we're talking about switch inputs to an encoder here. By "skill", he just means as long as you crimp properly (all things considered - tool, total wire gauge, connector gauge, etc.), then crimping 2 separate wires is totally fine and in terms of arcade use will be no worse than folding and crimping.

I'm sure, as you say, you can do the fold technique just as quickly as cutting, but for people who are not used to your technique, it requires care to cut and remove the insulation without damaging the wire, and that means extra time. As long as you do a good job with your crimps, then the chosen technique is nothing more than a personal preference.

[mountain]

I just found this thread and thought I could offer some insight. I've crimped a wire or two...

This is a really simple problem with a very simple solution. There are specific crimpers for these connectors that are calibrated to crimp it perfect every time. They prevent over crimping and under crimping simultaniously. These connectors are available in several different sizes, red - 16-22awg, blue - 14-16awg and yellow - 10-12awg. If you do not have a set of calibrated crimpers, or cannot use the proper wire/connector combination, you should solder. If you want the advantage of being able to unplug the switch on the fly, pull the insulation off of the terminal, crimp it to the best of your ability and then solder the wire to the connector at the crimp. Either re-use the insulation sleeve or apply heatshrink over it.

There is absolutely no advantage to keeping the wire intact. Remember, we are only supplying a ground to each switch so it can send a ground signal to the encoder. There is no load, no high voltage, just a signal. 8-12 crimps inline on a typical control panel will have minimal increase in resistance. You could properly crimp 100 splices in between a ground source and the encoder and it would work......forever.

[shardian]

Mountain makes a good point. In the case of sound wiring connections, proper tools and supplies is the most important aspect. With a good crimper, stripper, and proper sized QD and wire you could have a ground wire cut in no time. It is much quicker for me to cut the wire, strip the ends then go thru and crimp than it would be to shave off sections of insulation. I also don't do the insulation shave since I've seen houses wired like that and it is not kosher at all.

The best example I can give you for championing proper tools is my experience of repinning a system 1 pinball machine. I didn't want to buy a crimper for that one project, so I tried to manage with a generic crimper and solder. It was a pain in the ass, took forever, and looked like ass to boot. I finally got the proper molex crimper for the job. When used properly, it only took like 4-5 seconds to make a sound crimp that was probably stronger than the nasty solder/crimp I was doing before.

[ChadTower]

It was a pain in the ass, took forever, and looked like ass to boot.

It's one thing to look like ass.  It's so much worse to look like ass that needs booting.

[MaximRecoil]

There is absolutely no advantage to keeping the wire intact.

First of all, yes there is. I've already mentioned the advantages. You can pretend like I didn't so that you don't have to refute anything specific, but that doesn't make the advantages go away.

Secondly, there is absolutely no advantage to cutting the wire.

Remember, we are only supplying a ground to each switch so it can send a ground signal to the encoder. There is no load, no high voltage, just a signal. 8-12 crimps inline on a typical control panel will have minimal increase in resistance.

"No load", huh? True superconductivity—amazing.

You could properly crimp 100 splices in between a ground source and the encoder and it would work......forever.

Possibly. You know that the same thing could be said for any run of wire in an arcade machine, right? Since you are such a fan of cutting and splicing wires in a circuit, that you make a point of doing it to the ground loop even though it is 100% unnecessary, why don't you do it to the rest of your wires too? Go through all your wiring and cut it every 6" or so, then crimp it back together; because it will still work if you crimp properly and it seems to be the trendy thing to do.

They should start selling spools of wire that has already been cut and spliced back together every 6", because it's, you know, just as good.

[mountain]

Wow...

First of all, yes there is. I've already mentioned the advantages. You can pretend like I didn't so that you don't have to refute anything specific, but that doesn't make the advantages go away.

Please show me proof that cutting stranded copper wire increases any chance of oxidation. Exposing it to the changes in temperature and humidity, yeah, wire cutter...no. So you better put that handy little razor blade of yours back in the Playskool tool kit it came from and let us who know what we're doing have all of the fun.

Assuming one uses the right crimpers, and the right wire, there are no advantages to your technique.

According to your logic, when I go to rewire my basement, I think I will try to wire every circuit up with one long piece of wire. Hell, it might take a little longer but at least I won't be cutting any of that precious wire.

Possibly. You know that the same thing could be said for any run of wire in an arcade machine, right? Since you are such a fan of cutting and splicing wires in a circuit, that you make a point of doing it to the ground loop even though it is 100% unnecessary, why don't you do it to the rest of your wires too? Go through all your wiring and cut it every 6" or so, then crimp it back together; because it will still work if you crimp properly and it seems to be the trendy thing to do.

Hmm...why don't you go ask the two main encoder suppliers on this board how they recommend to do it. The whole daisy chain concept has been around forever and the both of these companies mention it in their manuals.


 

[TheShanMan]

MaximumRecoil, that was a pretty weak rebuttal. You're dealing in theory which doesn't apply in a practical sense to this situation. Why don't we all just stick to our preferred method of connecting grounds and stop worrying about such fine points.

[MaximRecoil]

Please show me proof that cutting stranded copper wire increases any chance of oxidation. Exposing it to the changes in temperature and humidity, yeah, wire cutter...no. So you better put that handy little razor blade of yours back in the Playskool tool kit it came from and let us who know what we're doing have all of the fun.

You either didn't read or didn't understand what I said. Generally the two wires are twisted together and then crimped. Oxidation of copper can affect the connection in a twisted wire splice. Ideally, the crimp connector will be the "tie that binds" so to speak, and prevent any problems, but that is assuming a perfect crimp; something for which the margin of error decreases as you add more wires to the single crimp connector.

Assuming one uses the right crimpers, and the right wire, there are no advantages to your technique.

And there are no advantages to your technique, only a greater potential for issues due to a decreased margin for error.

According to your logic, when I go to rewire my basement, I think I will try to wire every circuit up with one long piece of wire. Hell, it might take a little longer but at least I won't be cutting any of that precious wire.

Again, your reading difficulties are apparent. Splices in wiring are properly used as necessary, not gratuitously.

Hmm...why don't you go ask the two main encoder suppliers on this board how they recommend to do it. The whole daisy chain concept has been around forever and the both of these companies mention it in their manuals.

I'll take that as a "No, I don't want to go and add a bunch of unnecessary breaks/splices to the rest of my wiring like I did to the ground loop."

BTW, you do realize that nearly all problems with wiring will be found at the various connection/splice points, don't you? And this is even with professional crimps/splices/connections from the factory. Rarely does quality stranded wire of a suitable gauge simply break inside the insulation to cause a problem.

These are potential problem points later on, which is why they are used as necessary, rather than just for the fun of it.

[MaximRecoil]

MaximumRecoil, that was a pretty weak rebuttal.

Haven't you heard? All "rebuttals" that one doesn't personally agree with are "weak" (lol).

BTW, when you see the word "Maxim" on the screen, how do you come up with "Maximum" from that? I'm curious because I see it a lot, so it obviously isn't a typo.

[TheShanMan]

Sorry, maximrecoil. I'm letting you have the last word on this one because I don't see any point in arguing about it anymore. Cutting or not cutting is such an irrelevant issue IMO - do whatever works for you.

[Zebidee]

Crikey, I've been asking myself this question for a long time, and trying different ways, but I still can't make up my mind whether to cut or strip when wiring daisy-chains, and just make it up as I go. 

Good to see that people can get emotional about such important things  

[ahofle]

I've tried removing the insulation before, but I usually end up severing several of the strands of the wire in the process (I guess this would be a good time to use solid core).  There is no way I could do 6 in a row (like in that picture) without making a mistake.  Is there a tool out there designed to cleanly strip a small section in the middle of a wire?  If not, there should be.

[MaximRecoil]

I've tried removing the insulation before, but I usually end up severing several of the strands of the wire in the process (I guess this would be a good time to use solid core).  There is no way I could do 6 in a row (like in that picture) without making a mistake.  Is there a tool out there designed to cleanly strip a small section in the middle of a wire?  If not, there should be.

Try just scoring the insulation, rather than trying to cut all the way through to the copper. You only need to cut all the way through the insulation in a small spot so you can get ahold of the insulation and tear it off after you have made the scoring cuts. It will tear in line with the scoring.

I don't know of any tool for doing this.

[ChadTower]

I don't know of any tool for doing this.

 

[Jdurg]

I've actually learned that folding a wire is just as bad for the signal as cutting and splicing is.  By folding it, you are altering the crystal structure and this can cause just as many problems as a proper cut and twist/crimp.

In addition, cutting the wire does NOT in anyway alter the oxidation ability.  Oxidation is a chemical process.  Chemical processes do not give a damn about how the wire is set.  If there is an exposed surface, it will be oxidized if the right chemicals are in the atmosphere.  Whether the wire is cut or folded, it has the same propensity to oxidize no matter what you think.  Chemistry doesn't give a crap about what or who you are.   

[MaximRecoil]

I've actually learned that folding a wire is just as bad for the signal as cutting and splicing is.  By folding it, you are altering the crystal structure and this can cause just as many problems as a proper cut and twist/crimp.

That's ridiculous. Additionally, it is more of a bend than a fold anyway. But in any event, I'd like to see your data on folding wire altering the crystal structure and having an adverse effect on electrical conductivity.

In addition, cutting the wire does NOT in anyway alter the oxidation ability.  Oxidation is a chemical process.  Chemical processes do not give a damn about how the wire is set.  If there is an exposed surface, it will be oxidized if the right chemicals are in the atmosphere.  Whether the wire is cut or folded, it has the same propensity to oxidize no matter what you think.  Chemistry doesn't give a crap about what or who you are.   

I need to repeat myself here for the sake of folks who don't read so well:

You either didn't read or didn't understand what I said. Generally the two wires are twisted together and then crimped. Oxidation of copper can affect the connection in a twisted wire splice. Ideally, the crimp connector will be the "tie that binds" so to speak, and prevent any problems, but that is assuming a perfect crimp; something for which the margin of error decreases as you add more wires to the single crimp connector.

In other words, it is obviously not the cut, in and of itself, that causes potential oxidation problems, it is the fact that once you cut the wire and twist it back together, you are now relying on surface-to-surface contact (by twisting) to close the circuit. Oxidation occurs on the surface, which can degrade a surface-to-surface contact connection.

[pcb]

There is no advantage to either way if you properly crimp the wire to the terminal.  I've used both ways. And for me, it just makes more sense to cut the wires, strip and twist them together before crimping them.

Insulated terminals are by far the easiest crimp you'll ever make.  Even the cheap-o tools work well on these types of terminals if you have the correct size terminal for the wire you are crimping.

You should end up with 2 crimps.  The crimp farthest from the wire insertion hole should catch the stripped bare wire, the other crimp should catch the insulation.  If you do this, your crimp is going to be nice and strong.

When crimping multiple wires, if the combined insulation will not fit into the metal housing, you are using too small of terminal, go the next size up.

 - Mike -

[2600]

I've been meaning to post something like this in the review section, but haven't gotten around to it.

I have always despised crimping terminal connectors.  I'd buy cable before using the "manual" tool.  The plastic end would always look beat to hell when I was done with it.  I must of used around 5 different versions of them and I'd get the same result if it was made by AMP or Radio Shack.

Last year I bought a ratcheting crimper and it has to be one of my best tool purchases.  It makes both crimps at the same time and they are perfectly crimped each time.  I believe I have the Tool Aid 18900 and it cost like $25 and it's regularly on EBay.  It doesn't cost that much more then the AMP and other manual tools and am unsure why the ratcheting tool hasn't abolished the "manual" tools.

The other tool I picked up near the same time was a wire stripper similar to the Tool Aid 18950.  Best wire stripper I've ever used.  No more spot guessing lengths or cutting strands of the wire.

[TheShanMan]

Thanks 2600. I'm always looking for better tools! I'll check it out!

[Jdurg]

In addition, cutting the wire does NOT in anyway alter the oxidation ability.  Oxidation is a chemical process.  Chemical processes do not give a damn about how the wire is set.  If there is an exposed surface, it will be oxidized if the right chemicals are in the atmosphere.  Whether the wire is cut or folded, it has the same propensity to oxidize no matter what you think.  Chemistry doesn't give a crap about what or who you are.   

I need to repeat myself here for the sake of folks who don't read so well:

You either didn't read or didn't understand what I said. Generally the two wires are twisted together and then crimped. Oxidation of copper can affect the connection in a twisted wire splice. Ideally, the crimp connector will be the "tie that binds" so to speak, and prevent any problems, but that is assuming a perfect crimp; something for which the margin of error decreases as you add more wires to the single crimp connector.

In other words, it is obviously not the cut, in and of itself, that causes potential oxidation problems, it is the fact that once you cut the wire and twist it back together, you are now relying on surface-to-surface contact (by twisting) to close the circuit. Oxidation occurs on the surface, which can degrade a surface-to-surface contact connection.

Please tell me how properly twisting and crimping a connection removes that surface-to-surface connection?  You do realize that for oxidation of the metal surface to occur the metal has to be exposed to an oxidizing material.  A properly twisted and crimped connection will have no oxidizers around to oxidize the copper.  The only way the copper will oxidize is if the person making the crimp did a very poor job of crimping the connection, and in that case it wouldn't matter if he twisted it together OR used your fold technique.