Rotary joysticks...

[Dazz]

I really want to play some Ikari Warriors and looking into getting a rotary joystick like the original game used.  What is the preferred rotary joysticks and who is the best place to purchase?  What is required to hook one up to a MAME cabinet using an I-PAC4 and Opti-PAC? 

Thanks in advance!
Dazz

[divemaster127]

the happ rotarys are what I carry these are from happ & 29.99 each pm if you need a shipping quote
thanks
dm

[TPB]

Dazz,

There are two types of rotary joysticks - Mechanical and Optical.

The interface you plan to use (Opti-PAC) can only be used with the Optical rotaries.

However, Ikari Warriors used the Mechanical rotaries, so if you want the controls to be game authentic, you may wish to go for these.

With the mechanical rotaries, in addition to your I-PAC4, you'll need an interface such as this :

http://www.ultimarc.com/rotary.html


Or alternatively, this GGG interface (while lacking the "plug and play" simplicity of the Ultimarc product) will also do the job :

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_81&products_id=304


Divemaster,

I presume your pricing of 29.99 relates to the mechanical rotaries ?

[TPB]

Here's some info. on the sticks themselves ...

From the Happ website :

http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/50561800.htm

http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/50561800_exploded.htm


Some excellent photos taken by kowal, who owns a set of each :

Mechanical:  http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g308/k-kowal/Joystick/Rotary%20Joystick/

Optical:  http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g308/k-kowal/Joystick/Optical%20Rotary%20Joystick/

[divemaster127]

yes, the 29.99 is for mechanical, 39.99 for the optical I also have these
dm

[isucamper]

With the mechanical rotaries, in addition to your I-PAC4, you'll need an interface such as this :

http://www.ultimarc.com/rotary.html

Hi.  Question from a confused noob here (1st post!!)

Why do you need to use this interface "in addition to your I-PAC4"?  The description on ultimarc says that the rotary interface connects directly to USB.

Sorry if this is a dumb question.  I'm at the breadth of taking in the massive amount of information on this site in an effort to learn how to build my own CP.  Thanks in advance. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Why do you need to use this interface "in addition to your I-PAC4"?  The description on ultimarc says that the rotary interface connects directly to USB.

First -- welcome.

To answer your question, the rotary interface is, for lack of better terminology, a rotary interface. I know that sounds smart-assed, but what I am saying is that the rotary interface only handles the rotation aspect (e.g. Twist Left, Twist Right) of the sticks -- the actual directional movement (e.g. Up, Down, Left, Right) of the sticks needs to be handled by something else (e.g. the IPac).

[isucamper]

ah ha!

makes sense.  thank you

[DrFrag]

I'm building one to be able to play Ikari and Midnight Resistance, so I did a bunch of research on this too. 

I ended up choosing an IPAC4 with an OptiPAC for the rotary part.  I haven't assembled my control panel yet, but I laid out a test setup and it worked very well.  Really easy to set up once you've got the parts in your hands.

For the joysticks, I went with Optical Rotary Joysticks.  Although the Mechanical Rotary Joysticks seemed to be more true to the original (softly clicking into position as you turn your character), I read some posts that the emulation in MAME isn't too accurate on this.  That is, you turn the joystick one click and your character might turn two, or none at all.  Not wanting to go through any problems with this, I went with the Optical ones.  As a bonus, I should be able to use them as spinners, and maybe even as X+Y mouse controls for any frontend work provided I boost the sensitivity.

The pin outs on the joysticks weren't labelled properly, but it didn't seem to do any damage connecting them the wrong way.

Good luck!

[Minwah]

Although the Mechanical Rotary Joysticks seemed to be more true to the original (softly clicking into position as you turn your character), I read some posts that the emulation in MAME isn't too accurate on this.  That is, you turn the joystick one click and your character might turn two, or none at all.

This is worth repeating I feel...

[TPB]

This is worth repeating I feel...

With the initial version of Ultimarc's rotary interface (for mechanical rotary sticks), there were timing issues in Mame, which resulted in the above described abnormal behaviour.

Andy subsequently adjusted the interface, to resolve these timing issues.  Afterwards, he provided an assurance that the problem has been resolved.

Therefore, the Ultimarc rotary interface, in its current form, should work OK.

[isucamper]

Therefore, the Ultimarc rotary interface, in its current form, should work OK.

This would be good to know.  Can anyone confirm this?

[Teknique]

Old info but worth repeating for those using LS-30's...

http://mame.hower.us/rotary/

[Minwah]

With the initial version of Ultimarc's rotary interface (for mechanical rotary sticks), there were timing issues in Mame, which resulted in the above described abnormal behaviour.

Andy subsequently adjusted the interface, to resolve these timing issues.  Afterwards, he provided an assurance that the problem has been resolved.

Therefore, the Ultimarc rotary interface, in its current form, should work OK.

That's good to know. I know the problem really was down to Mame (handling the rotation as an ananlog input IIRC) rather than hardware, so I am guessing Andy came up with a clever way of getting round this?

[RandyT]

There seems to be some confusion on this topic.

Any rotary interface which does not properly take into account the minimum pulse width required by the application will have issues.  This is separate from the MAME issue (early versions) which apparently relied on time based counters rolling over to indicate a new rotational index.

I don't have the specific starting MAME rev in front of me, but later versions allowed for a perfect "1-click, 1 index" movement scheme.  IIRC, this mode of operation could be selected by setting the "positional digital speed" to 0 and the "positional sensitivity" to 100%.  Both under Analog Control Settings.

This may or may not still be true under the latest versions using RAW input.  Some of the earlier changes were lost in the transition.  Hopefully this one wasn't as well.

RandyT

[XtraSmiley]

Therefore, the Ultimarc rotary interface, in its current form, should work OK.

This would be good to know.  Can anyone confirm this?

Well, I had Andy send me the newest chip and I'm still having trouble.  It could be the version of MAME I'm using (.123) but I might still be doing something wrong.  Some games seem to work OK (Ikari) but others not at all (Time Solders).  Not sure what the problem is, but I haven't worked it to much yet.

I'd say if the non mechanical work 100%, go with it.

[u_rebelscum]

Well, I had Andy send me the newest chip and I'm still having trouble.  It could be the version of MAME I'm using (.123) but I might still be doing something wrong.  Some games seem to work OK (Ikari) but others not at all (Time Solders).  Not sure what the problem is, but I haven't worked it to much yet.

I'd say if the non mechanical work 100%, go with it.

edit: my info on TS is wrong, see later post.
Well, that's actually good to hear.  (emulation-wise)

Timesolders originally had an optical rotary joystick, while ikari originally had mechanical.  So for ikari, mame is using the "positional" input type, the way mame did what Randy talked about as the "1-click, 1 index" scheme.  So from what you're saying, the new method works fine.  But for Timesolders, mame is still (and correctly) using the "dial" input type, which is what Randy was referring to as the old, rely on time, method.

IMO:
Trying to find a perfect-for-all joystick is just 
Mechanical rotary joysticks is best for games that originally had mechanicals, but sucks for game that had opticals.
Optical rotary joystick, OTOH, is best for games that originally had opticals, and is only okay for games that had mechanicals.


Since I played mechanicals when I was younger, mechanicals are for me, but what's best for other people?

[isucamper]

Timesolders originally had an optical rotary joystick, while ikari originally had mechanical. 

How do you know this?  Maybe you just remember from actually playing the real games, but is there a database somewhere that lists the types of controls used for different games?

Also, about the optical rotary sticks:  How loose or tight is the spinning mechanism?  Does it then to slip when playing non-rotary games?  This is one of the reasons I wanted mechanicals since they lock into place it seems like they'd be less likely to slip.

[DrFrag]

I have Happ optical rotaries and they don't spin freely at all.  They're not hard to spin, but even if you spin them really fast and then let go, they will stop instantly.  I'm pretty sure no one playing a game would know they were rotaries if I didn't tell them.

[fjl]

If they can make U360's have rotary and have a lighted joystick, I'd be in heaven and set for just about any game.

[u_rebelscum]

Timesolders originally had an optical rotary joystick, while ikari originally had mechanical. 

How do you know this?  Maybe you just remember from actually playing the real games, but is there a database somewhere that lists the types of controls used for different games?

D'oh, I'm wrong about this.   From control.dat TS has a mechanical rotary (posted by me even, with ref to the original user manual).  I should have checked controls.dat in the first place; it's one of the best DBs on arcade inputs as it requires more than just memory to add the inputs, just not complete yet.

I was guessing TS had opticals from mame still using the dial input and the graphics are better than what I played, which proved wrong.  I used mame's -listxml output for if the game used dial type.  (Looks like -listxml isn't outputing positional type, though.)  Romlister is good at querying -listxml.

Thanks for making me check my info.

[isucamper]

Thanks for making me check my info.

No problem.  Thanks for pointing me towards controls.dat.  This looks great... I just wish it was searchable by input (type of joystick, number of buttons).

Thinking some more on the rotaries... it's really weird if MAME is able to play Ikari correctly with mechanical rotaries but not Timesoldiers.  I did some messing around with Ikari (MAME version .123) just using my keyboard, and it definitely didn't behave like I would expect it to.  I'd think that one press of the [ or ] key would equate to one turn click, but it doesn't.  It's definitely mapping some kind of analog spin to it based on how long you hold the button.  That being the case, I don't see how anyone could build a mechanical rotary stick that works correctly with MAME. 
-edit  messing with the analog settings got this to work with ikari... see my below post

Disappointing, but from the sounds of DrFrag's above impressions, the optical sticks might do the trick for me.  Someone above linked a site where you can download a patch for older versions of MAME to that apparently allows the mechanical sticks to work properly... I wonder why the MAME team doesn't incorporate these into their build so we wouldn't have to have the patches get updated for each new version of MAME. 

[XtraSmiley]

Thanks for making me check my info.

No problem.  Thanks for pointing me towards controls.dat.  This looks great... I just wish it was searchable by input (type of joystick, number of buttons).

Thinking some more on the rotaries... it's really weird if MAME is able to play Ikari correctly with mechanical rotaries but not Timesoldiers.  I did some messing around with Ikari (MAME version .123) just using my keyboard, and it definitely didn't behave like I would expect it to.  I'd think that one press of the [ or ] key would equate to one turn click, but it doesn't.  It's definitely mapping some kind of analog spin to it based on how long you hold the button.  That being the case, I don't see how anyone could build a mechanical rotary stick that works correctly with MAME. 

Disappointing, but from the sounds of DrFrag's above impressions, the optical sticks might do the trick for me.  Someone above linked a site where you can download a patch for older versions of MAME to that apparently allows the mechanical sticks to work properly... I wonder why the MAME team doesn't incorporate these into their build so we wouldn't have to have the patches get updated for each new version of MAME. 

When you tested using a keyboard, [ ] , did you set the analog to 100/0 like everyone has been saying?  Let us know if that works, I can't get to my cab at the moment.

[isucamper]

When you tested using a keyboard, [ ] , did you set the analog to 100/0 like everyone has been saying?  Let us know if that works, I can't get to my cab at the moment.

No, I hadn't.  I forgot all about it. 

But I just tried it.  Setting "Digital Speed" to 0 and "Digital Sensitivity" to 100 fixes Ikari Warriors.  Whether you hold [ or ] for a millisecond or a minute, you still get a 1 click, 1 turn reaction the way it should be.  If you move "Digital Speed" up to 1 or higher, holding the button will spin your character round and round.

However, I tried two other rotary games.  Time Soldiers and Downtown.  For both of these, setting "Digital Speed" to 0 and pressing (or holding) the [ or ] buttons results in 0 spins.  This is true even with "Digital Sensitivity" set to the maximum 255% (I think someone else above reported this as well).  Pressing the button several times will get the character to move though.

I do not understand why this works for some games and not others, but I did notice that Time Soldiers has more gun positions than Ikari Warriors (12 as opposed to 8 ) and that might be causing some kind of descrepancey.  Downtown however has 8 positions, just like Ikari... so I don't get it.

One thing I did discover for sure over the last hour... the music in Ikari Warriors is 1000% cooler than the music in Downtown.

[jono]

is time soldiers the only optical rotary game? sorry disregard my question found list earlier posts

[Bluedeath]

mechanical SNK LS-30

[TPB]

is time soldiers the only optical rotary game?

Time Soldiers is Mechanical Rotary ... refer to the discussion above.

[u_rebelscum]

However, I tried two other rotary games.  Time Soldiers and Downtown.  For both of these, setting "Digital Speed" to 0 and pressing (or holding) the [ or ] buttons results in 0 spins.  This is true even with "Digital Sensitivity" set to the maximum 255% (I think someone else above reported this as well).  Pressing the button several times will get the character to move though.

I do not understand why this works for some games and not others, but I did notice that Time Soldiers has more gun positions than Ikari Warriors (12 as opposed to 8 ) and that might be causing some kind of descrepancey.  Downtown however has 8 positions, just like Ikari... so I don't get it.

It has nothing to do with number of positions.  It's how mame is simulating the inputs.

Mame still uses the old dial input type for both Time Soldiers and Downtown.  Ikari was upgraded to the positional input type.  Positional = works great with 0 digital speed; Dial doesn't.

[isucamper]

So I went through and tested all the rotary games to see which ones supported the 1-click/1-turn functionality by setting digital speed to 0 and the sensitivity to 100%.  Maybe this is old news, but I couldn't find it anywhere else.

Using version .123 of MAME and my keyboard, it looks like all of the SNK games work properly, but none of the other games support it.

So it works in:
  Bermuda Triangle 
  Guerilla War 
  Ikari III - The Rescue 
  Ikari Warriors 
  SAR - Search and Rescue
  T.N.K. III 
  Victory Road 

It does NOT work in:
  Caliber 50 
  Down Town 
  Exterminator 
  Gondomania 
  Heavy Barrel 
  Midnight Resistance 
  Time Soldier 

Being a software engineer (but knowing nothing about emulation) I'm tempted to look at the MAME source code to see if I can figure out what they changed to the SNK driver to get this to work, and see if I could add it to the other games.  This is the main thing keeping me from ordering parts for my first control panel as I want the mechanical rotarys, but it seems like the optical ones would work better for more games, and unfortunatly, picking between the two also changes which Ultimarc interfaces I use to wire stuff up. 

[XtraSmiley]

Maybe you should post this at the MAME forums to see if you get a response from the devs, then again, maybe not...

[Bluedeath]

If you want simply play on mame rotary games you must use optical rotarys (you will have to calibrate them correctlly for mechanical games) . If you want perfect gameplay you must use mechanical (LS-30) for mechanical games a and optical in mouse mode for others.

[Minwah]

  Caliber 50 

This one used an optical rotary stick, not sure about the others.

[isucamper]

really?  looks mechanical to me... but I wouldnt' know for sure, I haven't played it since I was 8

http://www.westcontrols.com/files/pictures.php?snap=../pictures/cpanel/calibr50.jpg

[u_rebelscum]

really?  looks mechanical to me... but I wouldnt' know for sure, I haven't played it since I was 8

Short answer: They looked the same.


Long answer: both the mechanical and the optical had different models, and many of them looked the same (the handles), and some didn't.  However, it is known that Cal50 used optical.

[jasonbar]

Howdy-

I'm moving over from my other thread into this one, since this thread has a great collection of some technical & practical info.


Let me attempt to summarize the issue to make sure I have this all straight:


1 - My mechanical rotary sticks with the Ultimarc Rotary Joystick Interface (http://ultimarc.com/rotary.html) will work only on SNK games & no other company's games.  (I'm running MAME 115, 115u2, 108, & 82).

2 - The the Happ Rotary Optical sticks (2nd item on this page: http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/rotary_optical_joy.htm, or also discussed here: http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_controls.shtml#joystick_optical), is essentially a joystick with a spinner or 1-axis trackball (LED emitter & collector w/ windowed wheel between them) stuck to the bottom, right?

3 - The Happ Rotary Optical sticks will run *all* rotary stick games.  I could confirm this by setting all the rotary stick games to look at one of my current spinners & testing that way.  If it works with a spinner, it will work w/ the Happ Rotary Optical sticks too, right?

4 - The Happy Rotary Optical Sticks can be set up to be either USB or serial, correct?  Any preference?  Any extra hardware needed beyond what's ordered from Happ?  (like an Opti-Pac: http://ultimarc.com/optipac1.html or looks as if I need a Happ's Trackball Interface Kit: http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/56011300k.htm)

5 - The Happ Rotary Optical Sticks don't have a detent to quantize the rotation into discrete angles of rotation, right?  Has anybody hacked in a detent?  Doesn't sound toooooo hard...but I guess the trick is "tuning in" the detent so that the angle of rotation between clicks corresponds translated to 1 index of rotation on your on-screen dude.  Is it awful trying to play these rotary stick games without the klik-klik-klik rotational detent?

6 - If 3 is true, what's the best/preferred vendor for a pair of the Happ Rotary Optical Sticks?  I used Tornado Terry to order Happ items at a discount before & was pleased with his business.


Thanks for your patience!!!
-Jason

[isucamper]

Hi, i'm still pretty much a noob on here... but I want to comment on some of your questions.  I did a bunch of research on the whole rotary joystick situation since it is pretty much a necessity for me... but I got distracted actually building my cab.  In another month or two, I'll have the cab built and be back in here trying to figure out my rotary needs. 

I'll only comment on the ones I have specific knowledge on... I haven't actually tried any rotary sticks 1st hand... so I'll leave that to others who have. 

1.  Yes.  This is exactly what I found in my testing with version .123.

2-4.  I believe you are correct, but I have no 1st hand experience. 

5.  From what people have said on here... it is not optimal to use a optical rotary for a mechanical game, but it is certainly playable if you are willing to give up the authenticity (which I don't think I am). 

6.  Not sure, I think divemaster says he has them for like 40 bucks.

I did a bit of tooling around in the MAME source, but like I said, I got distracted building my cab which was a much bigger unknown to me than fiddling with the software.  It would help me if anyone could tell me what version of MAME the whole 1-click, 1-turn feature was implemented in Ikari Warriors.  Then I could do a diff and see what they changed to enable it. 

[TPB]

With the Mechanical rotary sticks (LS-30 or Happ equivalent) with the Ultimarc rotary interface,

Has anyone tried using these in regular games that DON'T use rotary sticks ?

The stick rotation could be mapped to any 2 buttons in the games (1st button for left rotation, and a 2nd button for right rotation).

You wouldn't want to be CONSTANTLY rotating the stick, so the rotation would be best mapped to infrequently used buttons, such as "Smart Bomb and Hyperspace" in Defender, or Gear Change (up / down) in driving games.

Sure, these controls wouldn't be game authentic, but I'm interested to know whether they work ?  It's nice to have the option of different control mappings.


For any game, does "1 increment of stick rotation", whether left or right rotation, correctly register as 1 keypress within the game ?   

[jasonbar]

Howdy-

Using MAME 115, I got some pretty interesting results, using my mechanical rotary stick & my Ultimarc Rotary Joystick Interface (w/ new chip).

I agree that all the SNK games you list work, except TNK III is a bit flaky.  It seems to have trouble at first but then it works OK.  This is after just a few tests, nothing too rigorous or scientific, so don't take it as fact.  I thought it might be a case of going into the settings & tickling it & coming back out of the settings until it worked, but just playing with the joystick for several seconds seems to make it work perfectly after letting it glitch for a bit...

I tried setting up Ikari 1 to work with a spinner, which required enabling my mouse.  It works fine w/ a spinner, as long as you tune in the analog settings to your liking, but I don't like it.  Definitely weird.  I didn't go further with any other games--I don't know if I'd be OK w/ using an optical rotary stick, but using an optical rotary spinner knob is certainly whack.


Then I looked @ your "does NOT work" list:

Cal .50: my mechanical sticks work quite well w/ this game!!!  I set up dial dec & dial inc to correspond to the mechanical rotary keys ([ & ]).  Default settings are 15 & 15%.  This is really close to working fine.  Cal .50 guys seem to have 16 positions (verified by setting up the spinner & testing).  I'm having a little trouble dialing in for 1 "click" to be exactly 1 rotational increment for my Cal .50 guy, but it's close.  I either set it up so it occasionally doesn't index or occasionally moves 2 ticks when I rotate my stick.  After much trial & error, the best I can do is 14 & 15%, a far cry from the 0 & 100% settings on the SNK games.  Playable!  Not perfect, but playable!

Downtown: works also.  I found 38 & 38% to be a good setting that works pretty well.  I didn't spend a lot of time tuning this in.  I also learned that Downtown is lame & doesn't let you mess around for even a minute at the beginning to test your darn joysticks, as some of the other games do (Heavy Barrel is generous!).  :\

Exterminator: works fine w/ defaults of 10 & 50%.  This game is least affected by the inaccuracies of the sticks, because you can rotate only a limited angle before you hit a stop.  And it's the only one that's not a top-down view, so it's less obvious if you're getting a 1-to-1 correspondance between your stick rotation & your character rotation.  But, can I just say "WTF"!?!?   

Gondomania: 15 & 100% work OK.

Heavy Barrel: Tip: Don't pick "Heated Barrel" from your game list.  It's much less fun.  Read carefully before selecting!  14 & 100% works well enough (not perfect).

Midnight Resistance: 13 & 90% is pretty good.

Time Soldiers: 13 & 100% is decent.  This is a 12-position game, not 8, like most of the others.


General comments.  It seems that you have to enable mouse in MAME to be able to use keys to do your rotating...  Remember to deselect the analog input when you set up "Input (This Game)" (it's the entry right above the Dec & Inc in the list of commands for this game), so that you don't accidentally rotate your dude by tapping the trackball...hmmm, or this could be a planned sabotage tactic against your partner... 


So, all in all, this works well enough for me--I'm not going optical.  I've tried to make the settings a little "conservative" so that a rotational notch of the stick is more likely to *not* rotate your dude, rather than overrotate him.  However, it appears to be inconsistent--with the same settings, sometimes a rotation click doesn't produce an on-screen dude rotation, but sometimes he'll go 2 notches.  Close enough--just pretend you're playing on a beat up arcade machine!  Faithful emulation!

I don't really understand the 2 settings great, so I welcome anybody to tweak these settings & post their results!  SGT wrote up a nice summary of this in my previous thread on this topic: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=81068.msg846063#msg846063


Thanks,
-Jason

So I went through and tested all the rotary games to see which ones supported the 1-click/1-turn functionality by setting digital speed to 0 and the sensitivity to 100%.  Maybe this is old news, but I couldn't find it anywhere else.

Using version .123 of MAME and my keyboard, it looks like all of the SNK games work properly, but none of the other games support it.

So it works in:
  Bermuda Triangle 
  Guerilla War 
  Ikari III - The Rescue 
  Ikari Warriors 
  SAR - Search and Rescue
  T.N.K. III 
  Victory Road 

It does NOT work in:
  Caliber 50 
  Down Town 
  Exterminator 
  Gondomania 
  Heavy Barrel 
  Midnight Resistance 
  Time Soldier 

[TPB]

Close enough--just pretend you're playing on a beat up arcade machine!  Faithful emulation!

LOL, that's true !   


Good stuff Jason !   

Thanks to your research, we can say that ALL of the rotary games, appear to be playable (with the LS-30 or Happs Mechanical rotary stick, together with the Ultimarc rotary interface).

Some will play with perfect accuracy, while the others are "good enough".

Each games just needs its own specific fine-tuning.

[TPB]

Hey Jason,

Would you be able to test, whether these sticks can be used in games that DON'T use rotary sticks.

Can they be used in ANY game at all, so that the stick rotation (to the left or right) can be mapped to a couple of buttons within the game ?

Sure, it's not game-authentic to "map the controls" in this manner.  But it'd be nice to know whether it works :


http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=76828.msg851449#msg851449

[isucamper]

Good news.  The list I made was just for which games recognized the 1-click, 1-turn functionality when putting the analog settings on 0%and 100%.  I was wondering how playable the other games would be by fine tuning the settings to get them as close as possible.  Its great that they are playable. 

Now, if only Front Line could be configured to use these rotary controls.

[jasonbar]

TPB,

Yup, I did a test on 1 game that had an 8-way stick & 2 buttons.  I mapped the 2 buttons to a CW & CCW stick rotation.  It works, though I hated trying to play if for even a few moments.  :]

-Jason

Would you be able to test, whether these sticks can be used in games that DON'T use rotary sticks.

Can they be used in ANY game at all, so that the stick rotation (to the left or right) can be mapped to a couple of buttons within the game ?

Sure, it's not game-authentic to "map the controls" in this manner.  But it'd be nice to know whether it works :

[TPB]

Thanks Jason !   


That's good to know.

This could have uses, such as changing gears in driving games (up = clockwise, down = anti-clockwise).

[isucamper]

Unfortunately, it would appear that in newer versions of MAME, setting the positional speed to 0 and the sensitivity to 100 no longer results in 1-click, 1-turn functionality for games using the snk.c driver (Ikari, Guerilla War, etc). 

Not sure when they broke it, but it's working in .123 and not working in .127.

[isucamper]

Now that my cabinet is together, I started playing around with some of the rotary games that don't support the 1click-1turn functionality in MAME version .123 (using my Happ mechanical rotary sticks).  Starting with Heavy Barrel, I could not get the game playable (by my own high standards) and I began searching for analog settings on the interwebs.  I came across this site:

http://mame.hower.us/rotary/

On this page you can download a modified version of MAME .63 which added 1click-1turn functionality for several rotary games.  This version of MAME accomplishes the task differently than .123.  There are actually dedicated digital buttons set up for left and right turns.  Pretty slick really, and far more useable and understandable than having to set your analog settings to magic numbers like in .123.  I imagine some of you are aware of this special version of MAME, as the author calls out BYOAC.

Mostly, the SNK games are supported, so there is some overlap between this modified version of .63 and what I've been using with .123.  However, there are several games supported in .63 that aren't supported in .123.  The complete list that this version supports is as follows:

ikari
victroad
tnk3
timesold
gondo
hbarrel
gwar
Bermuda Triangle
midnight resistance

So between the official .123 version of MAME, and this modified version of .63, you can have true mechanical rotary support for almost every single game that used it in the arcades.  I think the only exception is Downtown (Caliber 50 is not supported, but I hear that was an optical rotary game to begin with). 

Pretty awesome if you ask me.  If you were ever holding back on going with mechanical sticks because of incomplete support in MAME, you don't have an excuse anymore.  I've got MALA calling out the two different versions and it all works great. 

Also, I wanted to chime in a bit on the GP-Wiz40.  This is a gamepad inteface by Groovey Game Gear which supports mechanical rotary functionality.  I had started my panel with an IPAC and Ultimarc's rotary interface, but then I heard about the GP-Wiz40 and how it could support Taito rotary games like Frontline and Tin Star (both these games are pretty important to me to have on my cab).  So I picked one up.  Since I was using the button harnesses on my U360s, I realized I could replace both my IPAC and my Ultimarc rotary interface with the GP-Wiz40 and have plenty of room for everything on my 4 player panel.  I had absolutely no problems with either of Ultimarcs products, they both performed excellently, but the GP-Wiz fits my needs better (and is the far cheaper solution). 

The Roto X functionality of the GP-Wiz is actually pretty versatile.  Back when the Ultimarc interface came out, there was a lot of issues with the timing of the pulses that the unit put out, and users were actually going back and forth with Andy as he tweaked this in the firmware.  With the GP-Wiz, you can actually use a software interface to tweak the timings yourself.  A great little feature that should make the product a little more future proof as the MAME programmers tweak things.

As far as it's performance goes, it works great.  I couldn't tell a between it and Ultimarc's interface when playing the SNK games.  Even better, I was able to (more) accurately play my first game of Tin Star in about 20 years. 

There is, however, one small problem with the Frontline / Tin Star support.  It's actually more than a nit than anything, as both games are completely playable the way things are.  The arcade versions of these games used a very funky rotary setup:

http://www.westcontrols.com/files/pictures.php?snap=../pictures/cpanel/frontlin.jpg

The rotary dial looked like a spinner but it was actually an 8-way joystick with an actuator on it that clicked into position as you turned it.  Turning the stick moved the actuator one position.  The actuator would always rest on the joystick microswitches causing the signal that got sent to the game to be "always-on" as if you were holding a joystick up or down or diagonal or whatever. 

MAME emulates this faithfully, allowing 8-way joystick support for your aiming in Front Line and Tin Star.  However, the RotoX software in the GP-Wiz does not send an "always on" signal when in Frontline/Tin Star mode.  It sends a pulse as defined by the RotoX profiler.  So, when playing the games, if your aim is ever reset (as does in between levels in Tin Star or when you die in Front Line) your aim will start off pointing north, but when you turn the stick, your aim will jump to whereever it was before you died.  This is different in the aracde versions where, if you die, the software resets your aim, but the joystick actuator is always pressing in the last direction you were aiming, so your aim jumps back immediatly to where it was before you died without the player even realized that anything happened.

This effect is kind of hard to explain.  It is really a small issue and it won't screw you up if you are aware of it, but I just wanted to get it documented.  Both games are entirely playable and I've had a lot of fun with both of them (lets do Front Line for our next game competition!!! That game is brutal!!!).  I've also let Randy know and he said he'd try to find time to address it, though there may be memory limitations in the firmware which could prevent him from being able to send an "always-on" signal when in Frontline/Tin Star mode.

One other small draw back of the GP-Wiz.  In order to hook up my Happ mechanical sticks, I had to cut off the nice little wiring harness that comes attached to the rotary interface.  There were ways around this (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=87109.0, but they required some work.  Not a big deal, but the Ultimarc interface is made to connect to these harnesses.  If I ever wanted to sell these sticks or switch back to the Ultimarc interface, I will have screwed myself. 

Despite these small issues, I am completely happy with using the GP-Wiz at the foundation for my control panel.  It's been about 2 months, and the thing has been rock solid.  I really believe it to be one of the most versitile and cost effective interfaces out there. 

---Cleveland steamer---.  Sorry for the long post. 

[geocab]

Just wondering if anything has changed between MAME .123 and .129 in the rotary games area?  Or is the solution Isucamper just posted the best bet for those who want to play with mechanical rotaries?

[Lilwolf]

I'm not sure if this is part of the problems or not... but...

The games that where all working on the first list used a different input scheme then the others.  Ikari's used a all off but one button scheme (1000g000) -> (0100g000) on the pins (or whatever).  Many of the others where (0111g1111) -> (1011g1111)  (I think that was the other scheme).  I'm guessing that the code to convert these in mame is different.

btw, is anyone looking at giving a direct connect in mame again like in analog mame? 

Also, with the digital, is it near 100% (quick turn left 5 positions, then quick right 5 positions and the guns there instantly and pointing exactly where you would expect it??)  If so, I would LOVE to know... This was always the problem before (and why I never bought the converters)... If so (even if only a portion of the games work) I would pick up one asap!

Thanks

[isucamper]

Just wondering if anything has changed between MAME .123 and .129 in the rotary games area?  Or is the solution Isucamper just posted the best bet for those who want to play with mechanical rotaries?

Haven't tried .129, but I know that the functionality that works in .123 does not work in .127 and .128.

Also, with the digital, is it near 100% (quick turn left 5 positions, then quick right 5 positions and the guns there instantly and pointing exactly where you would expect it??)  If so, I would LOVE to know... This was always the problem before (and why I never bought the converters)... If so (even if only a portion of the games work) I would pick up one asap!

If you're asking if 1-click equals 1-turn 100% of the time, yes, this is true.  That is, if you're using one of the solutions I've listed above (.123 with 0/100 set in analog settings or the modified version of .63).

[jasonbar]

isucamper, thank you so much for posting about this 63 rotary hack.  This got 4 of my games from "plays pretty OK" status to "perfect" status!  And they're all good ones, so that makes me really happy!  Gondomania, Heavy Barrel, Midnight Resistance, & Time Soldiers.  Unfortunately, I've got the nag screens on these now, using the exe I downloaded from http://mame.hower.us/rotary/ , but it's totally worth it for proper game play!


I revisited *all* the rotary games & figured out which MAME to use.  My "main" MAME is 115, optimized for my processor, & w/ the hi-score/no nag patch.

The only game that's odd is TNK III.  When I run it on 115, the turret rotation is almost completely unresponsive for the first 10-40 seconds.  Then it's perfect.  In 63rotary, it's perfect from the start of the game.  In the interest of not having nag screens, I decided to stick w/ 115 for this game.  Weird...

Here's my summary, for those who care.

(Sorry about the porr formatting--putting it into a fixed-width font made it wrap around the screen way too far & the tabs didn't line up anyway...   Screen grab of my spreadsheet attached for clarity)



Name   ROM   Jason w/ 115   63 rotary claims   Comments
Bermuda Triangle <newer>   bermudat   perfect   good   use 115
Bermuda Triangle <older>   bermudaa   perfect   good   use 115
Caliber 50   calibr50   playable, not perfect   not fixed but good   use 115, 63 is the same
Downtown   downtown   works pretty well   not fixed   don't have 63 roms
Exterminator   exterm   fine   no coment   use 115, 63 is the same
Forgotton Worlds   forgottn   no comment   optical but works well   use 115, 63 is the same
Gondomania   gondo   OK   good   use 63
Guerilla War   gwar   perfect   good   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Heavy Barrel   hbarrel   well enough   good   use 63
Ikari Warriors   ikari   perfect   good   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Ikari III   ikari3   perfect   not fixed   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Midnight Resistance   midresu   pretty good   good   use 63
Search and Rescue   sercharu   perfect   not fixed   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Time Soldiers   timesold   decent   perfect   use 63
TNK III   tnk3   perfect after "warming up"   perfect   use 115 to avoid warning screens
Top Gunner   topgunbl   decent   not fixed   use 115, 63 is the same
Touchdown Fever   tdfever   seems good   optical but works well   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Victory Road   victroad   perfect   good   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Xybots   xybots   fine   N/A   wrong stick but plays fine in 115


Hope this is helpful--I have my recommend 115 analog settings posted above in this thread.

Thanks,
-Jason

[isucamper]

I agree, the nag screens are annoying.  It'd be nice to get the .63 diffs updated for a more recent version of mame so we could compile in the hi score/no nag... but oh well. 

[isucamper]

Jeez, I dont' know what's with my memory these days.  Mame63 was made back in the day when MAME was quite a bit more versatile than it is now.  You can actually turn off the nag screens. 

Just add the following to the command line or set these to 1 in your .ini:

-skip_disclaimer -skip_gameinfo

Now if only it saved high scores!!

[XtraSmiley]

Back from the dead on this topic.  Thanks for posting your research guys, good Wiki stuff there indeed.

So, the real question is, has anyone hit the MAME guys up to see if we can get .130 up to speed so we don't have so many near perfect solutions?

[jasonbar]

Just add the following to the command line or set these to 1 in your .ini:

-skip_disclaimer -skip_gameinfo

I'm glad your MEMORY is only semi-bad.  Thanks for remembering that.  Just set those 2 items to 1 in the .ini & they launch straight into the game from my FE now.  Woohoo!

Thanks,
-Jason


edit: forgot the word "MEMORY".  I guess my sentence construction is also semi-bad...

[isucamper]

So, the real question is, has anyone hit the MAME guys up to see if we can get .130 up to speed so we don't have so many near perfect solutions?

I wouldn't know how to go about doing this.  I have a feeling they would be unreceptive.  Seeing as they removed the 1-click/1-turn functionality that was in .123 (somewhere, in one of the update logs, one of the developers called this a "hack" and he removed it), I doubt they are going to help us out.

It's puzzeling.  They are always so anal about faithful replication of the original hardware, but the only support they've given us for these mechanical rotary games is analog spin support, and that's not being faithful at all.

I suppose I shouldn't complain too much.  I could always do the work and submit the code myself... but who has time for that?

[Derrick Renaud]

I have a feeling they would be unreceptive.  Seeing as they removed the 1-click/1-turn functionality that was in .123 (somewhere, in one of the update logs, one of the developers called this a "hack" and he removed it), I doubt they are going to help us out.

I don't recall anyone ever intentionally removing it, but it did get broken somewhere along the line.  Same with autocenter.  I fixed it when I noticed it was broken.  A bug report about it would have brought it to our attention sooner.

Per the 130 text:
Fixed Analog settings so Digital and Autocenter Speeds are applied
properly in real time. Fixed Digital Speed = 0 so it increments in
single steps per button press. [Derrick Renaud]

[XtraSmiley]

Thanks for the reply Derrick.  I was about to post over at MAME World, but you read this in time.

The problem is, when we start asking MAME Devs to do things, well, that's just a no-no with some of them, and I can understand b/c no one wants a million requests coming their way.  Of course, now that we have you here...

Did you fix this will all the rotary games so they work correctly, or only the SNK ones mentioned earlier that somehow were broken recently?

[Derrick Renaud]

Did you fix this will all the rotary games so they work correctly, or only the SNK ones mentioned earlier that somehow were broken recently?

As u_rebelscum has already stated, there is nothing to fix.  The SNK games used a positional control.  The other games use dial/optical controls.

Positional controls can be stepped through each individual step.  The dial controls can also be single stepped.  This causes them to increase 1 optical count per press.  But the arcade games then scale this down themselves.  Exterminator needs 6 counts per onscreen step.  Heavy Barrel needs around 21 steps.

This is how the original games worked.  There is nothing to fix.  That is why an optical rotary control is more universal then a mechanical one.  A mechanical control has a lower res then an optical control.  You can easily scale down from more counts but not up.  Read all the threads about why a hi-res spinner is better then a lo-res for more info.

I suppose if MAME allowed 2100% sensitivity....

[XtraSmiley]

Did you fix this will all the rotary games so they work correctly, or only the SNK ones mentioned earlier that somehow were broken recently?

As u_rebelscum has already stated, there is nothing to fix.  The SNK games used a positional control.  The other games use dial/optical controls.

Positional controls can be stepped through each individual step.  The dial controls can also be single stepped.  This causes them to increase 1 optical count per press.  But the arcade games then scale this down themselves.  Exterminator needs 6 counts per onscreen step.  Heavy Barrel needs around 21 steps.

This is how the original games worked.  There is nothing to fix.  That is why an optical rotary control is more universal then a mechanical one.  A mechanical control has a lower res then an optical control.  You can easily scale down from more counts but not up.  Read all the threads about why a hi-res spinner is better then a lo-res for more info.

I suppose if MAME allowed 2100% sensitivity....

Ah, OK, so, I'm not following 100%, but basically turning my controller once (a step or a [ or ]) only counts as one, but MAME can currently make it count up to more in the TAB menu.  Games that need it to count as 6 are good to go, but games that need it to count as more, such as 21 are out of luck because the TAB menu currently doesn't support giving it that much of a multiplier.  Am I following here?

What is the short fall here?  The rotary chip I have?  Can it be upgraded?  Is it going to be easier to get new controllers?  Well, either way, thanks for all your work on this.  Even being able to play just one game in MAME is awesome!

[isucamper]

This is how the original games worked. 

Let me get this straight (I'm slow).  Games like Heavy Barrel, Time Soldiers, and Midnight Resistance... even though their rotary sticks had a click to them, and felt just like the sticks in Ikari Warriors, under the hood they were actually optical and not positional?

Thanks a lot for helping us understand this by the way.

[Derrick Renaud]

Exterminator; Caliber 50; Touchdown Fever; Forgotton Worlds are optical rotary.

Any other game that has a mechanical control should be converted over to Positional.  It looks like Time Solders; Downtown; Heavy Barrel; Gondomania; Midnight Resistance; Top Gunner (bootleg) should be converted over.  When I added Positional, I did not know all the games that use that style control.

If you can confirm any other game that uses the SNK mechanical control, I will convert it over.  Maybe not till after easter though.  Depends when I find time.

[isucamper]

It looks like Time Solders; Downtown; Heavy Barrel; Gondomania; Midnight Resistance; Top Gunner (bootleg) should be converted over.

A while back I went through all the rotary games to see which ones had positional control and which ones didn't when setting the magic 0/100 settings in the analog controls that work for the SNK games.  In MAME version .123, none of those games you listed worked.

Of those, I have personally played Time Solders, DownTown, Midnight Resistance, and Heavy Barrel on dedicated cabinets and they used positional controls. 

I'll reconfirm that whether these games work or not in the most recent version of MAME when I find some time.

[Derrick Renaud]

For 0.130u4 (missed u3)

Converted downtown, gondo, hbarrel, midres, timesold, topgunbl to use IPT_POSITIONAL.

[isucamper]

For 0.130u4 (missed u3)

Converted downtown, gondo, hbarrel, midres, timesold, topgunbl to use IPT_POSITIONAL.

You are my hero.   

[XtraSmiley]

For 0.130u4 (missed u3)

Converted downtown, gondo, hbarrel, midres, timesold, topgunbl to use IPT_POSITIONAL.

Hey man, you can't be thanked enough, so thanks again!

Did my post above make any sense to you at all?  I'm not entirely clear how all this works, but either way, thanks for your hard work.

[bkenobi]

I just ran across this thread for the first time today...

Does this new (to me) 1-click/1-turn feature mean that MAME Analog+ is no longer required to accurately play rotary games?  This looks really intriguing...I'll have to give it a try!

[isucamper]

I just ran across this thread for the first time today...

Does this new (to me) 1-click/1-turn feature mean that MAME Analog+ is no longer required to accurately play rotary games?  This looks really intriguing...I'll have to give it a try!

I'm unfamiliar with the version of MAME you're talking about, but yes, you can use an official version.  See the rest of this thread to know what to set your analog settings to, and also to know which versions of MAME support it.  You actually might want to wait til version .130u4 is released in a few weeks, as Derrick added support for all of the games that were missing it.

[bkenobi]

I've read the thread, but I saw no mention of MAME Analog+ (written by U_RebelScum actually) which includes the mods that MC Echer developed.  I've been using it for a while with my setup, but recently deleted my old MAME romset by accident and now can't get it going.  The choice is use a current version or search for an older set for rotary games.   

[XtraSmiley]

Well, with MAMEUI 131, settings 0/100

Ikari Warriors:  Doesn't work 100%
Time Solders:  One for one turning, but not if you spin the controller fast.

Haven't had time to mess with the other games, but anyone else getting different results?

[isucamper]

Well, with MAMEUI 131, settings 0/100

Ikari Warriors:  Doesn't work 100%
Time Solders:  One for one turning, but not if you spin the controller fast.

Haven't had time to mess with the other games, but anyone else getting different results?

I finally got a chance to compile and try version .131.  I'm not seeing the problems you described at all.

I tried Ikari Warriors, Victory Road, TNK3, Time Soldiers, Heavy Barrel, and Gondomania.  They all worked perfectly with Position Digital Speed = 0 and Positional Sensitivity = 100.   Thanks a lot to DR for finally getting this implemented in the games it was missing in and for fixing the games that it was broke in. 

I did have one small issue during the setup.  Just after I set up Time Soldiers for the old 0/100, on player one, when turning clockwise, it would skip the UP direction.  Counter clockwise was ok and either direction was ok on player 2, but on player one, it would consistently skip UP if turning clockwise. 

I quit the game and restarted it and everything was perfect.  I think it might have been some artifact of altering the analog settings.  It was weird.   

[bkenobi]

That's great news!  I'm gonna have to give this a try over the weekend.   

[1UP]

If anyone wants to have a go at converting an existing joystick to rotary, I've found some 12 position switches that might fit the bill at http://www.mouser.com/catalog/catalogusd/638/1671.pdf which are cheaper than Happ sells them.  Happ does sell the mounting arm for the switch for $0.75 if you search for part # 96-1011-00.

[RandyT]

One thing to watch for when looking for a rotary switch, is full 360 degree operation.  Many will have a "stop" which will not allow you to "rollover" from position 12 to position 1 and vice-versa. 

RandyT

[1UP]

Ah, good point. These probably not many industrial applications that would require continuous 360 movement.  I wonder if it would be possible to remove the stop and have it work.

I was looking into this because I'm working on adding rotation to my Comps, but looks like I'll just be stealing the hardware from my Happs mechanical sticks.  My main concern was to not mess with the existing restrictor arrangement, so a smaller rotary shaft was in order.  Looking thru Mouser, I didn't find any with a smaller shaft, but I found these and thought they might be useful for any DIYers. 

As far as hacking existing sticks for rotary, one concern is that all the rotary switches seem to have 1/4" shafts.  The e-ring groove on the bottom of all Happ shafts is darn close to 1/4" in diameter, so drilling a hole into the bottom of the shaft would likely result in the paper-thin metal snapping off either instantly or during use.  The solution I've come up with is to drill a smaller hole and tap it for a machine screw, then attach a short piece of metal rod to the end of the shaft using a screw and loctite.  The extension has the 1/4" hole for the rotary switch, and a hole for a set screw in the side to hold the switch in place.

[Dazz]

Ok, so I am getting ready to re-do my control panel and would like to finally get rotarys added. 

So, what's the consensus on rotary joys now?  Mechanical or optical?

[isucamper]

Ok, so I am getting ready to re-do my control panel and would like to finally get rotarys added. 

So, what's the consensus on rotary joys now?  Mechanical or optical?

If you want to play mechanical rotary games, you've got full software support for them now in the most recent version of MAME.

However, after getting to know my Happ Rotary sticks a little better, I believe they are suffering from the same oversensitivity that many people are complaining about with new Happ Competition sticks. 

I didn't really notice until I tried Midnight Resistance (the only side scrolling rotary game), but it is far too easy too engage the microswitches on the sticks.  You'll be running to the right and accidentally start ducking.  Quite annoying.  If you barely move the stick in any direction, a switch gets pressed.  This happens on both my Happ rotary sticks.

It's not nearly as noticable on the vertical scrolling shooters, but now that I know it's happening, I'm wondering how I can fix it.     

[brandon]

If anyone wants to have a go at converting an existing joystick to rotary, I've found some 12 position switches that might fit the bill at http://www.mouser.com/catalog/catalogusd/638/1671.pdf which are cheaper than Happ sells them.  Happ does sell the mounting arm for the switch for $0.75 if you search for part # 96-1011-00.

I really wish somebody like RANDY would sell some rotary switches on his site.. 

[jasonbar]

I finally got a chance to compile and try version .131.  I'm not seeing the problems you described at all.

I tried Ikari Warriors, Victory Road, TNK3, Time Soldiers, Heavy Barrel, and Gondomania.  They all worked perfectly with Position Digital Speed = 0 and Positional Sensitivity = 100.   Thanks a lot to DR for finally getting this implemented in the games it was missing in and for fixing the games that it was broke in. 

You are very casual with your use of the word "finally"!  I finally got around to trying this out!  So there!    I downloaded 132 & compiled it with the hi score & no-nag patch.  Awesome.

All these games work splendidly!  Thanks for the MAME update, Derrick!!!

Now.................about Cal .50.......think you can work the same magic on that game too?   

Thanks,
-Jason

[isucamper]

that game used an optical rotary that spun freely (no clicks) so it's unlikely that the MAME team would support positional controls on it.  it does play great with a regular joystick and a turbo twist high low spinner though! 

[bkenobi]

So you have to use a 3rd hand to hit the fire button?   

[isucamper]

that game used an optical rotary that spun freely (no clicks) so it's unlikely that the MAME team would support positional controls on it.  it does play great with a regular joystick and a turbo twist high low spinner though! 

[jasonbar]

that game used an optical rotary that spun freely (no clicks) so it's unlikely that the MAME team would support positional controls on it.  it does play great with a regular joystick and a turbo twist high low spinner though! 

Thanks--attractive.  Or one could use a trigger stick & a normal spinner if you want to be able to fire & grenade simultaneously.

However, even though I've got a bajillion controls on my Frankenpanel, using rotary sticks with semi-accurate rotariness is my best option for 2-player action.

Thanks,
-Jason

[bkenobi]

High-low = 2 buttons or 1 button?  I don't have (or really want) a spinner, but that's pretty cool!

[isucamper]

you get one button with a push and another button with a pull

i have the machine gun firing on a push, but i didn't map the grenades to the pull.  i've got a button pretty close to the and I can hit it for grenades.  I tried it wth grenades on the pull and didn't like it much (kinda messed with my accuracy). 

[ragnar]

I'm trying to think back, way back ... to the 1980s.  I played Ikari Warriors a handful of times and if I ever do a cabinet, full Ikari support is a must.

So, I have a recollection from my childhood.  Didn't Ikari click as you rotated the joystick into predetermined positions or is the clicking feature a figment of my imagination.

Do these optical and mechanical solutions support clicking into positions every 1/8 turn or whatever it was that Ikari was based upon?  That way as you are moving, you don't accidentally twist 1/8 turn at an inopportune time.

Just my thoughts on this thread that seem to have not been discussed.  Then again I am a big time newbie.  I have two co-workers that plan on doing a full blow MAME cabinet and I might be the third.  We will be working this together if we all do it so that should make for a fun thread.

[jasonbar]

My mechanical rotary sticks click when I spin them.  I don't think I've ever accidentlally rotated them--the detents in the mechanism prevent accidental rotation.

-Jason

[bkenobi]

Ikari Warriors used LS-30 joysticks.  These are mechanical rotary joysticks that have a 12 position rotary switch in them.  Each rotation has a tactile and audible click that gives you feedback as to when you have rotated the stick.

[phildo77]

TPB,

Yup, I did a test on 1 game that had an 8-way stick & 2 buttons.  I mapped the 2 buttons to a CW & CCW stick rotation.  It works, though I hated trying to play if for even a few moments.  :]

-Jason

Would you be able to test, whether these sticks can be used in games that DON'T use rotary sticks.

Can they be used in ANY game at all, so that the stick rotation (to the left or right) can be mapped to a couple of buttons within the game ?

Sure, it's not game-authentic to "map the controls" in this manner.  But it'd be nice to know whether it works :

Let me add to a question to this vein of rotary stick thinking.  I've got a panel that already has Happs Competitions on them (2 for player one and two and 1 each for players 3 and 4)  You can see what it looks like here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=38049.msg340299#msg340299

I'm doing a complete overhaul of the first panel (shown above) (and adding panel #2, its a rotating panel) and am thinking I'd like to replace player one and player two left side competition sticks with Happs optical rotarys.  My question is this...  Has anyone had an experience using the rotarys in games that don't require rotary?  Is the spin of the stick distracting?  Is there a lock to prevent spinning or a damper to increase spin resistance?

[jasonbar]

I'm not really answering your question directly, phildo77, but I use a *mechanical* rotary stick (black bat) for my primary player 1 stick & it has sprung detents that tend to keep it from rotating unless you try to rotate it.  It's never been a distraction or issue.

Hopefully somebody can chime in on the *optical* rotary sticks too.

Thanks,
-Jason

[bkenobi]

I don't think most sticks are fixed from rotating anyway.  I haven't taken that many apart, but all that I have messed with use spring clips somewhere to keep the stick in place, but nothing to keep it from rotating.  Perhaps you are over thinking this?

[Dazz]

Well...  2 years after creating this thread I FINALLY got my rotary joys and got them installed and working.  I went with the Happ Mechanical and the Ultimarc Rotary Interface.  It really makes setting up a snap.  So far I've only played Ikari Warriors and they work great!

[XtraSmiley]

Well...  2 years after creating this thread I FINALLY got my rotary joys and got them installed and working.  I went with the Happ Mechanical and the Ultimarc Rotary Interface.  It really makes setting up a snap.  So far I've only played Ikari Warriors and they work great!

Please post your settings in MAME for all the games you test.  I don't think I ever got mine working 100%, so sad...

By the way, any plans to add rotarty joy function support in HS?  I wonder if it would do anything for the FE...

[phildo77]

I don't think most sticks are fixed from rotating anyway.  I haven't taken that many apart, but all that I have messed with use spring clips somewhere to keep the stick in place, but nothing to keep it from rotating.  Perhaps you are over thinking this?

Well holy crap, you're right.  My Happs competitions do rotate!     I just never noticed myself.  Well I'm going to go ahead and replace them with rotaries and let you guys know how it plays.  It'll be a couple of weeks at least.

[deano7]

I tried using version 63 and it works GREAT for my rotary games.  The only problem is that even though I am using the command line switches skip_description and skip_gameinfo, it still pops up a screen that says "There are known issues with this game" and asks me to type "OK".

Typing OK won't work in my cab and I want to get rid of it if possible, is there another command line switch to get rid of this annoying screen?

Thanks in advance!
Dean

[drventure]

+1

If they can make U360's have rotary and have a lighted joystick, I'd be in heaven and set for just about any game.

Just had to second this opinion!

[JustMichael]

If they can make U360's have rotary and have a lighted joystick, I'd be in heaven and set for just about any game.

+1 (Only if they were RGB lighted).   These would surely become the holy grail of joysticks to get then...

[EvilNuff]

I wonder how much demand there is for either of those features.  Aren't the u360s basically a magnet on the end of the shaft and reading the resulting motions?  I would love rotating on u360s, sort of been holding off on ordering a pair just in case that ever comes through.  Until then my ls-30s are fine for my ikari fix.

As for lighting, from looking at pics of the u360s I don't see how to get an led in at all.  Maybe the same tech as used for inductive battery charging could power an led housed in the ball top? heh  I sure would like that as well.

[Bender]

I've been working on this on and off for a while now (more off than on lately)

I have gotten each part to work individually, Rotary, top fire, LED, but not all together.... yet, but I think it is possible

here is the info so far http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=78652.0

[Beaps]

Hi All,

I can get my rotary stick working in dos MAME using [ & ] to rotate left/right but when I configure MAMEUI32 the same it doesn't work???

Its there an option I need to check/uncheck to get this working in MAMEUI32? 

Ta

[Beaps]

Hi All,

I can get my rotary stick working in dos MAME using [ & ] to rotate left/right but when I configure MAMEUI32 the same it doesn't work???

Its there an option I need to check/uncheck to get this working in MAMEUI32? 

Ta

[bkenobi]

Well, I suppose it depends on the stick.

If you are using a mechanical rotary (one that clicks for each rotation), the stick must be connected to a rotary interface to infer what the rotation means.  The output from that card will be a button press for each rotation direction.  There is no special setting in MAME required to make this work other than mapping that click to the corresponding rotation.

If you are using an optical rotary stick (smooth rotation in either direction), then the stick connects via an optical interface.  This interface is essentially a single axis of a mouse to the computer.  In this case, you map the rotation in MAME via the analog settings.  If you are connected this way, you must also inform MAME that you are using a mouse with the -mouse switch or setting mouse=1 in the mame.ini file.

[Beaps]

I am using the LS-30 SNK stick & the Ultimarc Rotary device.

Like I say it works in DOS version but not MAMEUI32.

[bkenobi]

I use LS-30's as well, but my sticks are interfaced through a GP-Wiz32-RX.  The only difference AFAIK is that your interface appears as a keyboard whereas mine is a game pad.  In any case, there is nothing special that needs to be done.  Simply map the rotary inputs from the Ultimarc controller to the rotation commands in MAME.  Should work fine!

[Beaps]

Thats what I am tring to say?

I set up the key commands in MAMEUI32 the same what I do in the DOS MAME but is does not work in UI. 

[bkenobi]

Do the controls work in Windows at all?  Since it's a keyboard emulator, you could open notepad and see if anything is being spit out.  The next step would be using a real program to detect HID input, but if notepad shows stuff, that's good enough.

[Beaps]

Yer the work in notepad fine [ &] are showing up. Its just when I run MAMEUI32 it doesnt work in the games.

[bkenobi]

And MAME won't let you remap the inputs.  Or rather, when you try to remap the inputs, MAME doesn't recognize the rotation as an input?

[Beaps]

the latter mate, mame soes not recognize the inputs

[bkenobi]

Huh, you got me!  I'd try contacting Andy directly to see if he has any thoughts.  I've never dealt with him, but from what I understand, he's very helpful and will definitely work with you to get the issue resolved if it's hardware related (which this probably is not).