I hate my job and want to switch rant

[Ed_McCarron]

I shuffle papers for scientists.

Hey, scientists gotta use the toilet too.

What?  Oh, wrong kind of paper?  Sorry. 

[knave]

I was in the same boat, Hated my job etc...(actually it was a few jobs) so I did the whole Carreer change Got the MBA and found that I was over educated for my level of experience.  So I lucked onto my current job.  I love it.  Problem is that to everyone else I'm underemployed.  They see this great big MBA sticker on my forhead and that I should be making 80-100k. 

I do look all the time to see what's out there and most of the MBA jobs I see are financial requiring 5 years of experience.

Some day I'm gonna have to break in to some type of leadership position...but I have time to enjoy where I am now and perhaps exaust my current growth path.

Pinballjim.  How did you make the transition?

[Wade]

MBA...Some people think of it as some super impressive thing, I just saw that I wasn't going to get to where I needed without it. 

I have yet to meet that person.

Wade

[CheffoJeffo]

Some people think of it as some super impressive thing, I just saw that I wasn't going to get to where I needed without it. 

In the first stages of my career, I was considering doing my MBA, mostly because it was an easy add-on (12 month program, specifically due to my undergrad program) and I thought it would look good on a resume.

My mentor at the time said "If you want an MBA, just hire one."

I say this not to provoke or dismiss the value of an MBA (my sister is doing hers right now and I am 100% supportive ... and tutoring stats and finance), but rather to point out that an MBA isn't a ticket to anywhere -- you need something else before that MBA is of any value.

[ChadTower]

20 years ago an MBA was impressive.  Now it is pretty much standard to be a manager outside of the tech field.  Every third resume has one.

[CheffoJeffo]

20 years ago an MBA was impressive.  Now it is pretty much standard to be a manager outside of the tech field.  Every third resume has one.

Busier interviewing than fixing the bugs in your own app ?

[ChadTower]

Busier interviewing than fixing the bugs in your own app ?

I was when I was foolish enough to be a manager myself.  I could only take it a few months - nothing but meetings talking about work, accountable for the work of others but producing nothing myself, writing about work.  Never doing any work.  It was like sitting in a room listening to Tom Cruise read off tommy's greatest hits all day every day.   I ended up quitting to find a job back in the engineer's level.

[CheffoJeffo]

It was like sitting in a room listening to Tom Cruise read off tommy's greatest hits all day every day.   

    

[shardian]

If you want to run your own business, I'm not even sure I'd suggest it as it's a huge time and money sink and you can hire plenty of MBAs to shuffle the paper for you.

Or in the case of my Brother-in-law, an MBA gives you the tools and knowledge to cheat taxes effectively in small business.

[ChadTower]

Even if every third resume has one, do you want to be the 2 out of 3 that immediately hits the trash can?

That's not what happens in my field.  It doesn't mean the other two hit the trash can - it means one of the three has a meaningless MBA on it.

[zaphod]

Advanced degrees are nice to have, if for no other reason than you give more weight to your resume in case of ties on experience.  I  got my MIS some years ago just for my own edification.  Company paid for it (except for books).  Information I learned benefited both me and my company.  I was shocked, though, at the overall low quality of graduate students in the MIS and MBA programs.  Many of these students thought Access was an enterprise-quality database system. 

[ChadTower]

Many of these students thought Access was an enterprise-quality database system. 

If someone with an MIS degree said that to me in an interview I would end it right then and there.  No further discussion necessary.  The person is either lying about their degree or got it from a can of Chef Boyardee.

[CheffoJeffo]

My mentor at the time said "If you want an MBA, just hire one."

People always say that about other professions.  The MBA students had a similar disdainful attitude towards lawyers.  The MIS people had the same attitude towards computer scientists, etc.

You assume it is disdain (since when is an MBA a profession?) ... perhaps that is due to your own experience. It wasn't disdain (we DID hire MBAs and I do so today!) -- it was a reminder that getting a degree to put on a resume doesn't necessarily add value to your life. It may let you climb one rung higher on some ladder, but it won't result in a massive swing in career success or personal fulfillment. He was encouraging me to be more entreprenurial and take some risks instead of resigning myself to the linear path. Perhaps it is coincidence that I have not assembled a resume since.

My sister has no illusions about why she is doing her MBA -- it is a requirement for her to move up the ladder. If she isn't happy being on the ladder, then the MBA will do nothing to change that.

[zaphod]

Many of these students thought Access was an enterprise-quality database system. 

If someone with an MIS degree said that to me in an interview I would end it right then and there.  No further discussion necessary.  The person is either lying about their degree or got it from a can of Chef Boyardee.

Agree 100% about ending the interview.  Scary thing is, these kids are getting jobs with state agencies where the managers believe that same thing.  And people wonder why government has problems getting things done.
Large, well-regarded public institutions allow these people to graduate, just not "Chef Boyardee-U".

[ChadTower]

Large, well-regarded public institutions allow these people to graduate, just not "Chef Boyardee-U".

A large institution doesn't stay well regarded turning out graduates like that.  I saw it happening too when I was in college, though.  At Northeastern there was a substantial percentage of the Cmpsci dept that was buying its way through the program.  There were guys graduating who couldn't C their way out of a paper bag - despite having taken most of their programming and algorithms classes in that language.  They were buying homework from other guys.  I had a couple of people approach me for my projects.  I had no interest in getting kicked out of school, but if I had been willing to risk that, there was a lot of money to be made from wealthy foreign national students.

[zaphod]

I'm not suggesting they were not doing their own work.  The projects that were required each semester always had to be done on a small-scale, so you almost had to use Access for those.  This was '99-'02, so not many other easy alternatives.  So that is what they learned and what they thought would be used in the real world.  The textbooks spoke in generalities, not specifics so minimal mention of DB2, SQLServer, or Oracle. 

The group projects were one way for the college to get through the marginal students.  I always hated those and did not hesitate to be a butt-head to those in my group who didn't carry their weight.

My undergrad was a different story and I made a lot of beer money 'helping' students through the one or two required PC courses in our liberal arts programs. 

[shardian]

Scary thing is, these kids are getting jobs with state agencies where the managers believe that same thing.  And people wonder why government has problems getting things done.

What really sucks about State, Federal, and even my company is that they wait to hire these clueless graduates until AFTER the highly experienced vets retire. All in the effort of saving a few pennies. They think these college kids - who have no clue about how "real life" works, are going to walk in and perform at the same level. Newsflash: It just ain't gonna happen unless they are trained properly. In most cases any more a college degree is just a piece of paper that says the person who attained it is at least somewhat intelligent, has a moderate working knowledge of the subject matter, and can be trained quicker than a person w/o a degree.

At the Corps of Engineers, they are basically shoving out all of their veteran Engineers and technical people. Their main charge is the lock and dams system. There is only a handful of people left that even have a clue how to build one, and almost all locks are due replacement.

At my job, I was hired and thrown into the fire. I've never been properly trained - not even close. They FINALLY hired another young guy, and he is well on his way to being done just like me. The last guy who was hired a few years before me was put in the shop for a time, put in the field for a time, and was properly trained over his first year. IConsidering all of the vets are a year or two from retirement, they have really missed out on an opportunity to pass on all of that knowledge.

[ChadTower]

The point of college isn't to pump you up full of specific job skills, it's to teach you how to 'think' like a member of that chosen profession.

That's managementspeak garbage.  Pure and simple.  Engineers, and yes MIS grads are engineers, are expected to have a baseline level of skills when they graduate.

Do you really expect fresh MIS grads to know everything about whatever niche database system you're utilizing?

Yes.  Absolutely.  I expect an MIS grad to know the difference between a single user application and an enterprise level DBMS.  I fully expect them to have at least a simple grasp on the difference in architectural requirements between the two.  That is, after all, specifically covered in an MIS program.

We utilized a lot of MS Office products when I got my degree... but guess what... the terminology, structures, usage, etc translate at least 90% to other systems.

That's just out of context of what the guy said.  Knowledge of Access isn't going to get you 5% of what you're going to need in an Oracle environment.  I wouldn't expect a fresh grad to be a Oracle certified DBA.  I would, however, expect them to know enough to know how much they don't know.  If they don't know at least that much they don't know a damn thing.

[ChadTower]

There is a reason engineering interns actually get paid.  They get paid because they actually have useful skills.  You can give them a narrow task and they will complete it to reasonable standards.  As they get closer to their degree they can complete larger and more professional grade tasks. 

There is a reason business interns do not get paid.

Either your computer science advisor was a business intern or your school had a terrible program.  I've studied in two top cmpsci programs - both were teaching practical skills to the people who were actually there to learn.  I did my first internship after my freshman year and was writing useful automation for my employer.

[shardian]

Sounds like you should be hiring out of vocational academies or community colleges if you ask me.

Computer science adviser at my college used to tell his students, "if you want to be a programmer, drop out now and go to community college" and that advice was probably more rock solid than the school wished he would share with them.

That is very true. You learn next to zero practical knowledge in college. Trade school teaches you the practical stuff, but you then lack the foundation and theory to build upon  - you are stuck on that bottom rung.

I had more than one interview in which I was drilled about my hobbies and interests way more than my grades in school. At one interview I went to explain a course I had an issue with and the guy cut me off and said "You have a piece of paper that says you graduated, thats that matters."

[Wade]

Chad, you expect too much of an MIS degree.  I wouldn't expect an MIS grad to know the first thing about database or programming.  When I was working on my undergrad, the MIS students only had to take 2 or 3 programming classes, and those were Cobol.  The CS students had to take a lot more difficult and "nuts and bolts" types of programming classes, and the majority of them took a lot of "special topics" classes that covered things like VB, VC++, Java, etc.

Essentially... the MIS were the folks didn't have the capacity or courage to get through the CS program (and the 30 hours of math scared off a lot of folks).  Interestingly, it was rare to see an MIS student in the Comp Sci special topics classes.  Your school may vary, and things might be different today, but it was a very obvious line at my school.  There was the same line between the engineers and the printers (most who went into printing admitted it was because it was easy).

Wade

[ChadTower]

Chad, you expect too much of an MIS degree.  I wouldn't expect an MIS grad to know the first thing about database or programming. 

Knowing the difference between a single user app and an enterprise level app, specifically the local execution architecture vs a client/server architecture, is well within the MIS program.

MIS programs are much more involved now than they were ten years ago.  Much deeper.  They wouldn't be of any use in today's multilayered architectures the way they used to be.

[ChadTower]

EDIT:  eh, forget it, it was a good post but I have too much to do this afternoon than waste time while jim argues a profession he hasn't been in with people who have been in it a long time.

[shardian]

Yeah, you computer nerds are speaking greek to me right now.

[zaphod]

There's a world of difference between the application design process and the actual coding of it.  It's two completely different skill sets and generally two completely different personality types.  A computer science major comes out knowing lots of technical information but absolutely nothing about business processes or needs, unless they took some electives.  A MIS major comes out knowing basic business principles, application design, and some soft skills on the actual coding... unless, again, they took some electives.
 

You hire a compsci guy to write code.  You hire an MIS guy to develop software, meet with users, and manage the programmers. (there, look, I got a dig in, too )

I do both, the complete design, and all programming (in whatever language/db is best suited).  Because of the variety and say in how projects develop and turn out, I love my job.  A grunt coding job would not be fun for me.

I should state I have a 'Masters in Information Systems' not an Undergrad MIS degree (undergrad is actually double major Business Admin/Comp Sci).  I do expect a graduate degree MIS applicant to know quite a bit more about business processes out of the gate than I would a 4-yearer.

Oracle, IBM's DB2 and MS's SQLServer aren't really "niche" databases, IMO.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, you computer nerds are speaking greek to me right now.

That's okay - you can operate a $1 rummage sale steamer.  I still need to learn that.   

[shardian]

Yeah, you computer nerds are speaking greek to me right now.

That's okay - you can operate a $1 rummage sale steamer.  I still need to learn that.   

I have also hauled MDF...sorry...I couldn't resist. All in good fun, right?

[ChadTower]

I have also hauled MDF...sorry...I couldn't resist. All in good fun, right?

So have I, now.  longass 2x4s, too.  I'm moving up in the world of lumber movement.  I'm almost ready for hardwoods.

[CheffoJeffo]

Oracle, IBM's DB2 and MS's SQLServer aren't really "niche" databases, IMO.

 

[ChadTower]

Most of the major enterprises in the world are running one or more of those database systems.  I'd be surprised if at least half of them aren't using Oracle.  Oracle is to the enterprise database what Cisco is to the internet.

[CCM]

I need to be able to hold something in my hand, work it around,

There is pretty much zero satisfaction for me in what I do now. 

I'm almost ready for hardwoods.

Are you working on getting a promotion?  Or just a raise?   

[ChadTower]

Are you working on getting a promotion?  Or just a raise?   

I'm hoping that when I finally burn out I won't leave the chimney clogged up with creosote.

[Wade]

There's a world of difference between the application design process and the actual coding of it.  It's two completely different skill sets and generally two completely different personality types.  A computer science major comes out knowing lots of technical information but absolutely nothing about business processes or needs, unless they took some electives.  A MIS major comes out knowing basic business principles, application design, and some soft skills on the actual coding... unless, again, they took some electives.

I hate to say it (just because it's coming from pinballjim) but I generally agree with the above.  They are both computer related degrees, but the MIS is more of a business management degree with a computer emphasis, and the comp sci is a math/engineering degree with a computer emphasis.

Wade

[Sir Auros]

Teaching is a hell of a rewarding job if you enjoy being around kids and are good with them, the benefits are usually pretty good, and it's not the same old thing day in and day out. There are downsides, but I'm happy with my career teaching in a high school.

In WVa, can you get a provisional license without having a MA? I ask because you may be able to get a job teaching and have up to 3 years to get your MA. In VA, it used to be set up so that anyone with a BA could get a provisional license, and then take the required teaching courses and tests within three years and get full certification.

It's also worth mentioning that many school systems will pay for classes you take for certification or recertification, and that having a Master's is invaluable in education. I have mine, and I can take Underwater Basket Weaving 101 and it will count towards my recertification points.

[boykster]

There's a world of difference between the application design process and the actual coding of it.  It's two completely different skill sets and generally two completely different personality types.  A computer science major comes out knowing lots of technical information but absolutely nothing about business processes or needs, unless they took some electives.  A MIS major comes out knowing basic business principles, application design, and some soft skills on the actual coding... unless, again, they took some electives.

I hate to say it (just because it's coming from pinballjim) but I generally agree with the above.  They are both computer related degrees, but the MIS is more of a business management degree with a computer emphasis, and the comp sci is a math/engineering degree with a computer emphasis.

Wade

And in my experiece, the best application designers / managers / technical directors / department heads can live just as comfortably in both worlds.

[Wade]

Engineers, and yes MIS grads are engineers, are expected to have a baseline level of skills when they graduate.

Not where I went to college.  Comp Sci's were engineers and in the engineering building, MIS students were not considered engineers and took their classes in the business hall.

Wade

[ChadTower]

Not where I went to college.  Comp Sci's were engineers and in the engineering building, MIS students were not considered engineers and took their classes in the business hall.

How many years ago was that, Wade?  Things are vastly different than even ten years ago when I was in school.

[ClubNinja]

It was half and half at my school.  MIS students took half their classes in the business building and the other half in the computer science building.  Still, no one considered them engineers.

[CCM]

I graduated way back in 1994 with a BS in Comp Sci and I wasn't considered and engineer, I guess things have changed.

[ChadTower]

UMass had no Cmpsci building yet was one of the top Cmpsci programs in the US in the mid 90s.  Not sure where they are now.  Northeastern was way way below that but had a very nice dedicated building.  Having a building doesn't tell you a hell of a lot other than how much it costs to be there.