What am I looking at here? Vertical Visual Pinball

[leapinlew]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcLQOBwxvSE[/youtube]

I was wanting to know if building a visual pinball machine would be worth it. Can you use a monitor setup vertically? Does it make sense to?

[shardian]

Can it be done? Yes. Is it difficult? Yes. Results may vary? Yes.

That guys setup looked very good. I believe there was alot of custom work done there. The backglass pretty much has to be custom.

I've seen a few discussions over at vpforums about it. go to vpforums.com and read up in the forums.

[fixedpigs]

that kid sucks...

nice to hear axl's sweet swooning on a sunday morning though...

[surf]

"backglass" is just a monitor...

looks like a cool project, just be a bit pricey for a good size "table"

[DaveMMR]

It may be cool to make a "bartop" pinball machine though for a reasonable price.   I was never big on putting VP on my cab, but I wouldn't mind making a dedicated video pinball table like that.  Looks cool!

[DeLuSioNal29]

Yes, I believe it's not hard at all.  Normally, Visual Pinball allows you to display the Pinball board and the back (where the score is kept) on the same monitor.  Visual pinball moves it over to the left or right depending on the game.

However, it does give you the option to have the scoreboard on another monitor so as to not obstruct the main pinball area.  I suppose you could make the pinball main area on a widescreen vertical monitor and the scoreboard on a normal 4:3 monitor.  Looks like this is what he did.

~ D

[Neverending Project]

There is always the commercial route. $ $

[shardian]

"backglass" is just a monitor...

looks like a cool project, just be a bit pricey for a good size "table"

Duh. I meant custom layout.

[unclet]

Can most Visual Pinball tables be played on a 900Mhz computer?

[shardian]

Can most Visual Pinball tables be played on a 900Mhz computer?

The older ones yeah. DMD's are hit and miss. My former home desktop was an AMD Duron 1.2ghz with a ton of memory and a decent vid card. Medieval Madness was bogged down something fierce.

[ChadTower]

Can it be done? Yes. Is it difficult? Yes. Results may vary? Yes.

That guys setup looked very good. I believe there was alot of custom work done there. The backglass pretty much has to be custom.

How is that any different than a MAME cab?  Seems to me a VP cab would be a whole lot easier - you don't have to worry about controls or monitor orientation, you have a far smaller amount of software to deal with, there is no 15khz debate, etc.

[shardian]

Can it be done? Yes. Is it difficult? Yes. Results may vary? Yes.

That guys setup looked very good. I believe there was alot of custom work done there. The backglass pretty much has to be custom.

How is that any different than a MAME cab?  Seems to me a VP cab would be a whole lot easier - you don't have to worry about controls or monitor orientation, you have a far smaller amount of software to deal with, there is no 15khz debate, etc.

Because there are software limitations in pinmame that MAME does not have.

[ChadTower]

Because there are software limitations in pinmame that MAME does not have.

Pinmame is a tiny emulator.  It doesn't even do anything useful without Visual Pinball.  I've never seen anything with Pinmame that makes me think it is a problem and we use Visual Pinball a lot in my house.

What issues are you talking about?

EDIT:  now that I think more on it, the fact that Pinmame expires every 6 months is a pain in the ass.

[shardian]

Because there are software limitations in pinmame that MAME does not have.

Pinmame is a tiny emulator.  It doesn't even do anything useful without Visual Pinball.  I've never seen anything with Pinmame that makes me think it is a problem and we use Visual Pinball a lot in my house.

What issues are you talking about?

EDIT:  now that I think more on it, the fact that Pinmame expires every 6 months is a pain in the ass.

When I say pinmame, I mean Visual Pinmame - the combination of visual pinball and pinmame.

[ChadTower]

Okay then - what are the issues you're talking about?  We run it on two difference machines regularly and don't have much trouble beyond the Pinmame expirations. 

[shardian]

Okay then - what are the issues you're talking about?  We run it on two difference machines regularly and don't have much trouble beyond the Pinmame expirations. 

Jeez, nitpicker.

In order to create what this guy did, you have to change the angle of the playfield. The software supports it, but it is wonky and combine that with the fact that many tables weren't designed with a zero angle in mind, they look like crap. You can't just plug in two monitors and be up and running after resetting the angle. Also, flipping the playfield to run vertical has its own set of compatibility and resolution issues.

It's been a year since I even tried messing with it, and vpforums is down so I can't refresh my memory on the details right now.

[ChadTower]

I can't see what that guy did (websense) - but if you just went with the default angle, which is pretty much fine IMO for what it is - it should run pretty well.  I hear all the time about VP that it's really hard to set up in a cab.  I just don't see that as the case.  It may be hard to get to do things that people want, sure, but you design a cabinet around software, not vice versa.  If you build a cabinet that plays to VP's strengths it will be pretty good.

I just don't see how a skilled MAME cab builder would have any difficulty at all making a decent VP cab unless they tried to do things VP isn't designed to do.  It's not a pinball machine and you can't reproduce a pinball machine perfectly in software no matter what you do.  It's all the same comments you get regarding Ultrapin sucking because it doesn't feel like a real pin.

My advice on VP is to not try to make a pinball machine.  Make a VP cab and it will play and feel like a good VP experience.  If you don't want a VP experience then, as you decided with your project, a VP cab isn't for you.

[unclet]

Yeah, I cant stand how PinMame expires either ...... I wish someone would hack that out of there .....

[shardian]

Ahh it makes sense now. You are arguing in a thread in which you don't even know what the debate is about.

In the video, the guy has G&R pinball running, but with nothing but the playfield taking up and entire widescreen monitor laying on its back in a vertical orientation, and a 4:3 monitor behind it displaying the entire backglass with the DMD where it is supposed to be. I don't know what language they are speaking, but it definitely isn't american (it never is in the best projects )

What he did is very difficult to do and make it look good. Basically he made an ultrapin.

Just putting visual pinmame in a cab and adding buttons, well DUH that is simple. However, that is not what is being discussed here.

[ChadTower]

I was wanting to know if building a visual pinball machine would be worth it. Can you use a monitor setup vertically? Does it make sense to?

I responded to Lew's actual question.

He doesn't ask how can I do what this guy did.  He asks about VP in general.  Had he asked about that guy's cab I wouldn't have responded.

[shardian]

Dude, you quoted me.

[ChadTower]

True, that made it ambiguous.  Oh well.   

[SavannahLion]

Not to steal the topic.

Why does pinmame expire?

The pinmame site is blocked at work, otherwise I'd look it up myself.

[ahofle]

I could be mistaken, but I believe it was in case one of the copyright owners complained about the inclusion of their game they could remove it from the following release and everyone would be forced to upgrade to remove the game.

[shardian]

Okay, I did some quick research and found the thread that discusses setting up a DIY ultrapin.
VPForum thread is here

Also note that on the last page the guy who posted that youtube video posts about his accomplishment. I also noted that his youtube account was "Lordhiryu". I think several of you will recognize that name - he is a talented spanish cab builder. He used to post here, Here is his profile, but he is mostly active in his native forums.

[shardian]

I could be mistaken, but I believe it was in case one of the copyright owners complained about the inclusion of their game they could remove it from the following release and everyone would be forced to upgrade to remove the game.

That is correct.

[JackTucky]

Ahh it makes sense now. You are arguing in a thread in which you don't even know what the debate is about.

Is this the first time you've noticed that about people here?

=J

[SavannahLion]

I could be mistaken, but I believe it was in case one of the copyright owners complained about the inclusion of their game they could remove it from the following release and everyone would be forced to upgrade to remove the game.

Oi  In my book there is a huge difference between a virtual representation of a pinball and the actual physical hardware.

Have any of the copyright owners complained about that yet?

[shardian]

I could be mistaken, but I believe it was in case one of the copyright owners complained about the inclusion of their game they could remove it from the following release and everyone would be forced to upgrade to remove the game.

Oi  In my book there is a huge difference between a virtual representation of a pinball and the actual physical hardware.

Have any of the copyright owners complained about that yet?

Pinmame relies on the actual roms from the actual game. That is a catcher right there. Most copyright owners don't care and the roms are freely available. Gottlieb is the main exception. They have authorized dealers to sell chips, manuals, etc.

[ChadTower]

Oi  In my book there is a huge difference between a virtual representation of a pinball and the actual physical hardware.

Have any of the copyright owners complained about that yet?

Pinmame is the emulation of the physical hardware - the CPU to be exact.  It is not Visual Pinball, which is a simulation.  Pinmame is the engine that emulates the CPU board, running the game logic, and using the actual ROMs from the original machine.  It is no different than MAME for this purpose.  Without Pinmame VP wouldn't be emulating any game with a CPU.

sharidan - stern cares too, at least when it comes to the modern games.  That's why you don't find them available.  Not in the mainstream anyway.

[shardian]

sharidan - stern cares too, at least when it comes to the modern games.  That's why you don't find them available.  Not in the mainstream anyway.

Stern seems to have a "3 year rule". The roms are available after they finish making their money off the game.

[ChadTower]

Stern seems to have a "3 year rule". The roms are available after they finish making their money off the game.

I'll have to poke around and see if I can find some of the just over 3 year old Stern games, then.  When I'm looking for new tables I tend to look older games before I look newer.  Last I looked the stuff like Sharkey's Shootout and T3 weren't out there - just some vague references to them being available if you knew the right forum members.

[Kangum]

both T3 and sharkys shootout are available at AJs. T3 came out last year i think and sharkys shootout came out in like 2005.

attached is T3 rotated fulscreen on my latop. sorry for the quality i suck at photos.

[SavannahLion]

Oi  In my book there is a huge difference between a virtual representation of a pinball and the actual physical hardware.

Have any of the copyright owners complained about that yet?

Pinmame is the emulation of the physical hardware - the CPU to be exact.  It is not Visual Pinball, which is a simulation.  Pinmame is the engine that emulates the CPU board, running the game logic, and using the actual ROMs from the original machine.  It is no different than MAME for this purpose.  Without Pinmame VP wouldn't be emulating any game with a CPU.

Oh duh.   I keep thinking of pins as electromechanicals and discrete logic.

[SGT]

In the video, the guy has G&R pinball running, but with nothing but the playfield taking up and entire widescreen monitor laying on its back in a vertical orientation...

What size screen for the playfield do you suppose that is?  Is that a 16:9 aspect ratio?  It seems super long (vertically).

[RayB]

To properly display the playfield, you'd need to set it to have no perspective, but angle the camera view such that it's about 45' view. (You'd have to experiment to get the correct angle based on how you intend to play it). Also need and LCD monitor that doesn't wash out and look all cruddy from such an angle.

Here's another one... looks damn cool!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a4MVu5wlng&feature=related[/youtube]

[Loafmeister]

Some additions/corrections:

Expiry date:  The legal reasons above are true but there is also more to it than that.  Vpinmame/Pinmame is a program that is constantly being developed.  The devs have publically stated if ever development stops, there will be a version released minus the expiry date. However, for now, along with the legal reasons, the expiry date also acts as a personal reminder to check and see what new version was released and therefore gives you the chance to explore the new features, bug fixes and new tables supported.  I always like to view things in a positive light.

3 year rule:  This is not a Stern rule, it's a pinmame/vpinmame dev rule, as a sign of respect towards Stern.  Stern neither approves or disapproves. Stern cannot legally approve as they are not the sole copyright owner of many/most of their tables (ex: monopoly).  To do so could leave them liable for a nice lawsuit.  Since VPM is a non-commercial product, totally free of charge, they tolerate VPM; let's leave it at that.

[MPTech]

I've got VP & FP setup on my cab and really like them both, I know they are not quite like a real pinball, but then again I couldn't afford 300+ tables, or house them, so this is a cool compromise!
It is kind of a bummer playing on a horizontal monitor with the angle aspect and all. But it is still a LOT of FUN!  Hey, the price was right too, just add a couple flipper buttons to the side of the cab!

I think the UltraPin would be even neater, setup in a Pin Table (with the metal legs, a tilt, and a plunger!), with a Vertical monitor and a seperate backglass! OH YEAH!

I wish someone would figure out how to do it and publish a how-to!

Any takers?!?!?!  There are some REALLY talented guys here!  Evil? Psychtech? Leaping Lew?  C'mon guys, this would be a challenge!

[Xiaou2]

 while I do play some visual pinmame occasionally..  its absolute crap compared to the
real deal.

 I also played the  Ultrapin at the Rochester gameroom show last time, and it stunk.
Poor display refresh rate = blurry, and frame-skippy.    No kicker coils for feedback.
Graphics were cartoony instead of photorealistic.   Flat looking.  Poor physics.
And much more.

 You may not be able to afford to buy a whole basement of Pins... but I tell you,
youd be more happy spending decent money on One REAL Pin instead of sinking
a grand into a phony POS that will never compare in looks, feel, and more
importantly ... Fun.

 
 Now, if we were to make a Really good pinball simulator..  it would use the latest
Headtracker techniques along with a Steroscopic Display.  (3D LCD Glasses, or
3d Head mounted display helmet system )

It would have multiple kicker coils that would give the player the feedback when
he pushes the flippers, or hits a bumper...etc.   The thing would have a separate
dedicated physics card(s)  specially designed by mathematical geniuses.

 It would sense all variations of tapping, bumping, sliding..etc.. and replicate the
results that occur on a real machine.

 

[shardian]

In the video, the guy has G&R pinball running, but with nothing but the playfield taking up and entire widescreen monitor laying on its back in a vertical orientation...

What size screen for the playfield do you suppose that is?  Is that a 16:9 aspect ratio?  It seems super long (vertically).

22" WS monitor for playfield, 17" 4:3 for backglass.

[RayB]

I also played the  Ultrapin at the Rochester gameroom show last time, and it stunk.
Poor display refresh rate = blurry, and frame-skippy.    No kicker coils for feedback.
Graphics were cartoony instead of photorealistic.   Flat looking.  Poor physics.
And much more.

The one I've tried had kicker feedback when you pressed the flipper buttons. Felt very real.

[ahofle]

I also played the  Ultrapin at the Rochester gameroom show last time, and it stunk.
Poor display refresh rate = blurry, and frame-skippy.    No kicker coils for feedback.
Graphics were cartoony instead of photorealistic.   Flat looking.  Poor physics.
And much more.

The one I've tried had kicker feedback when you pressed the flipper buttons. Felt very real.

Same here and that feature was VERY nice.  The plunger was also implemented correctly.  But there was just something about the layout of the table on that large monitor.  It just didn't quite look or feel right, especially toward the back (I'm comparing it to a nomal VP table where the screen is pinched toward the top to give a 3D illusion).  I can't really describe it.   

[RandyT]

I can't really describe it.   

Here, let me 

I have experimented a bit with the VP in the vertical arrangement and it's true.  The big problem in a situation like this is that a real pinball machine is actually three-dimensional, so all of the little cues that tell you what things are supposed to look like and where they are in space happen naturally, as you would expect them to.

These video pins have to simulate those visual cues, but they can't really succeed because the data is rendered to a flat plane.  Your brain is getting confused because the perspective doesn't really match the depth.  Add to that the fact that the units I have seen attempt to fill the screen, further throwing things out of whack.  The final issue is head position.  If you are 5' 2" tall or 6'2" and the perspective used in rendering tried to normalize it to  a person who is 5'7" tall, again, your brain will be expecting something other than what it sees.

It may still be effective, but as you found out, it's probably going to "feel" a little funny.

RandyT

[ChadTower]

I have experimented a bit with the VP in the vertical arrangement and it's true.  The big problem in a situation like this is that a real pinball machine is actually three-dimensional, so all of the little cues that tell you what things are supposed to look like and where they are in space happen naturally, as you would expect them to.

That is exactly why people looking to create a pinball machine on a video screen are deluding themselves.  They are building a pniball video game.  As soon as they accept what they are actually building they'll be happy with what they get.  It is all about user expectations and being realistic. 

I can't tell you how many people I've heard say VP and Ultrapin suck "because they're not real pinball".  No ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, Sherlock, it's a video game.

[Lord Hiryu]

Hi Guys.
Nice to see you again.
About this thread I have to say that the Vertical Pinball is finished yet.
I'm agree with ChadTower, on the fact that play in a visual pinball is not the same as playing in a real pinball.
For instance, I have in my house 2 pinballs too (GNR and IJ), and the gameplay isn't the same.

The fact, is actually that Vpinball isn't a emulation, I think more is a simulation, 'cause the real psychics of the ball can't achieve with a mathematical form on any PC.

BTW, I agree with the result 'cause, to be honest, I think is better play a simulated table with a monitor rotated than in a horizontal mounting monitor.

Also, for the nudge "feel", I using the idea from WWW from VP Forums, and make a home-sensor based on the ball movement.

About the tables, yeah...is not "turn and play".
I make several graphics changes and modified some script of each one, to make them more believable.

Here's a picture of the Apocalypse's GNR version (Right Side) and the same version, but with my own touch (Left Side)

Here's a video of the GNR inplay.
[youtube]Sffv2cX0s7g[/youtube]
And this is a picture of the finished pinball.


Cheers.

[CheffoJeffo]

 

 

[shardian]

 

Dammit, you beat me to the exact same post!

I soooooooo want that machine. Just curious, but will you be making your custom vert. table builds available to the public?
I am sure that I speak for the masses, but I would pay good money for plans and files to build a replica of that cabinet.

[Lord Hiryu]

Hi Shardian.
At the moment I don't want to do public this versions, 'cause I don't have the permission of their owners.
I talk with JPSalas and Destruk, but I don't know what thing about PacDude and some others.
The process of the construction you can view here, is in Spanish, but there's full of photos.

http://www.marcianitos.org/foro/showthread.php?t=11821

Don't worry about the plans, I will do public as soon as possible.

[Franco B]

Wow!

That's beautiful!

[jace055]

 

I don't care what anyone has said here, real or not real, that is badass!!

[NinjaEpisode]

That's flippin bad ass! 

[FrizzleFried]

How are you playing the table "flat" as opposed to in a 3d perspective like Visual PinMAME?

[dmworking247]

I don't know what language they are speaking, but it definitely isn't american

I wasn't aware that American was a language, that explains a lot of my communication issues 

[RayB]

How are you playing the table "flat" as opposed to in a 3d perspective like Visual PinMAME?

IMagine yourself playing his table. YOU and the position of your HEAD in relation to the screen provides the perspective. His table is set to just the right angle to simulate the 3D you'd see. (Look carefully, his table is not straight top view)

[ahofle]

How are you playing the table "flat" as opposed to in a 3d perspective like Visual PinMAME?

IMagine yourself playing his table. YOU and the position of your HEAD in relation to the screen provides the perspective. His table is set to just the right angle to simulate the 3D you'd see. (Look carefully, his table is not straight top view)

I think he means how did he get the tables to appear perfectly rectangular and not artificially slimmer toward the rear like they do in VP.

[FrizzleFried]

How are you playing the table "flat" as opposed to in a 3d perspective like Visual PinMAME?

IMagine yourself playing his table. YOU and the position of your HEAD in relation to the screen provides the perspective. His table is set to just the right angle to simulate the 3D you'd see. (Look carefully, his table is not straight top view)

I think he means how did he get the tables to appear perfectly rectangular and not artificially slimmer toward the rear like they do in VP.

Exactly!  How?

[DeLuSioNal29]

That thing is SICK!  Great job.   

~ DeLuSioNaL

[RayB]

How are you playing the table "flat" as opposed to in a 3d perspective like Visual PinMAME?

IMagine yourself playing his table. YOU and the position of your HEAD in relation to the screen provides the perspective. His table is set to just the right angle to simulate the 3D you'd see. (Look carefully, his table is not straight top view)

I think he means how did he get the tables to appear perfectly rectangular and not artificially slimmer toward the rear like they do in VP.

AH! Maybe there is support for orthagonal camera? (Im just guessing here. In 3D rendering packages and 3D game engines, we can have a "camera" that has perspective, or there is a camera that looks straight on. Maybe VP has this built in.

[metahugh]

I don't post here often but I had to drop in and make a comment.  Absolutely awesome!!!!  I love your cabinet design!  How in the world did you get those VP tables to look so good?  Did you redesign them from scratch with higher res art?

[tumult]

I don't post here often but I had to drop in and make a comment.  Absolutely awesome!!!!  I love your cabinet design!  How in the world did you get those VP tables to look so good?  Did you redesign them from scratch with higher res art?

ditto.  i rarely post, but this deserves major props.  congrats!

tum

[vertygo]

I just showed my wife, and she said "Yes, build that for me!"   

I've never even considered or tried the pinball emulators.. now I'll have to check them out.

[Singapura]

Just get one of these