Restoring vs. Maming a cabinet - The complete rule book

[Sir Auros]

Judging by the other posters response I expect he's fairly young too because he just doesnt 'get it'. 

Age is irrelevant, and brandon already said what I'd add at this point.

[ChadTower]

What I see in this thread is a guy doing something he knows is going to be unpopular, announcing his actions, and acting surprised and victimized when the majority are against it. 

Does this guy have the right to do what he wants with his Galaxian?  Yes. 

Does the community have the right to react to it?  Yes, because he made it a community issue when he announced and detailed it.

Does this community tend to pile on when they see something they don't like?  I don't think they do - unless the person acts like this guy is acting.  If the guy just said "well, it's mine, I get that you guys don't like it, but this is going to happen" the community probably would have let it go.  The fact that the guy couldn't deal with the opposition, and turned it into a "me vs all of you" situation, is what brought so many people into the thread.  Is that necessarily fair?  I don't think so, but he knew it would happen, given that this guy has been a BYOAC member since 2003 (Sir Auros) and 2005 (the original poster).

[shardian]

The fact that the guy couldn't deal with the opposition, and turned it into a "me vs all of you" situation, is what brought so many people into the thread.  Is that necessarily fair?  I don't think so, but he knew it would happen, given that this guy has been a BYOAC member since 2003 (Sir Auros) and 2005 (the original poster).

This thread was created to get the argument out of his project thread, as it should be and has been (for the most part).

[ChadTower]

This thread was created to get the argument out of his project thread, as it should be and has been (for the most part).

Right, which was a decent move, but this argument would have been over a long time ago if this guy would stop poking the bear.  He had to have known this would happen, it did, and now he's acting like he had no part in it.

[mccoy178]

Chad, you have no clue what is going on here.

[ChadTower]

Chad, you have no clue what is going on here.

I've read the whole thread and the project thread, as well as the thread RayB resurrected.  Your disagreement with my opinion does not mean I misunderstand.

[shardian]

Right, which was a decent move, but this argument would have been over a long time ago if this guy would stop poking the bear.  He had to have known this would happen, it did, and now he's acting like he had no part in it.

Have you even read the thread? He has come in to add details because people are going off half-cocked, and don't even know which cabinet the guy used.


The only thing he did that I would tend to disagree with is the speaker mod. Everything else is pretty damn cool. Besides, he is replacing all of the art with original repro art. This machine will still be a Galaxian cabinet for goodness sakes - just a way cooler Galaxian. He could throw on a cheap used original CP, and 95% of people here would not bat an eye.

It is my opinion that projects that are done as well as this guys is do WAY more to preserve the history of arcades than taking a rag to the cabinet, but it still being beat up royally.

[ChadTower]

Have you even read the thread? He has come in to add details because people are going off half-cocked, and don't even know which cabinet the guy used.

I didn't make any comment about my opinion as to how much or how little he did to the cab.  I didn't comment on the project itself at all except to say that some of the community didn't like it - and they didn't.

[FrizzleFried]

...alright,  I think we've all said what we wanted to say...how about we let this thread die?   A couple folks berate me for expressing my opinion in here...well,  that is why this thread was created.  I removed my opinions from his Project Announcement thread days ago...

Homie is gunna do what homie is gunna do...

 

[MaximRecoil]

It is my opinion that projects that are done as well as this guys is do WAY more to preserve the history of arcades than taking a rag to the cabinet, but it still being beat up royally.

That doesn't make a lick of sense.

[shardian]

It is my opinion that projects that are done as well as this guys is do WAY more to preserve the history of arcades than taking a rag to the cabinet, but it still being beat up royally.

That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Preserving the history means getting new generations to be interested. His project is very well done, and will look great/ be an attention getter when it is done. It will interest any newer generations he shows it to.

The spirit of the machine is still alive and well in his project with what he has done. This guys work is WAY down the list of proverbial bones collectors have to pick with "Mamers".

And like I said before, he could slap a Galaxian CP on there and people would say "WOW, that is a SWEET Restoration."

[MaximRecoil]

Preserving the history means getting new generations to be interested. His project is very well done, and will look great/ be an attention getter when it is done. It will interest any newer generations he shows it to.

No, that isn't what "preserving the history" means. If that was the case, repainting over the Mona Lisa to give her a big set of jugs would be "preserving history", because a lot more people would be interested in looking at it.

Preserving history means just that. You can't preserve history by modifying it, no matter how much more appealing you make it. 

[shardian]

Preserving the history means getting new generations to be interested. His project is very well done, and will look great/ be an attention getter when it is done. It will interest any newer generations he shows it to.

No, that isn't what "preserving the history" means. If that was the case, repainting over the Mona Lisa to give her a big set of jugs would be "preserving history", because a lot more people would be interested in looking at it.

Preserving history means just that. You can't preserve history by modifying it, no matter how much more appealing you make it. 

I hate to break this to you, but I don't think plywood/particle board box is designed to last the test of time.
 I tell you what, preserving these games don't mean ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- if there aren't new generations who fall in love with them. As even frizzle has said, if it weren't for MAME, this site, and bastard MAME cabs, he would not be where he is in the hobby. Same for me. Same for alot of folks who were not old enough to fully enjoy the Golden Age of arcades. The guy has shown his love for the hobby in the detail he has presented. I wouldn't doubt it if he ends up restoring several cabinets eventually.

I just feel a tastefully done project as this is not a "bad thing" as it is being made out to be. Same with the '57 Chevy couch. That probably came from a beat to hell car, was refurbished and turned into a beautiful piece of furniture that I would be honored to have in my house and pass to my kids. It isn't a tragedy, it is an honor for a junkyard piece of metal. Same thing here, that cabinet was more likely than not doomed for the trash pile in the near future. This guy saved it, and made it into something nice and desirable.

Cut the guy some friggin slack.

[FrizzleFried]

...as one of the more vocal,  I too agree that his project was about as borderline as they come...it's very well done for sure (never said it wasn't).  I just don't really see the difference between MAMEing a classic dedicated cabinet well or hacking it to hell.  The end result is the same...one less dedicated classic arcade machine.

THAT SAID...his cabinet was also quite borderline... IMHO it was just a hair over the "yes,  it's worth restoring" line.   Had the machine been gutted... or converted... or already hacked,  I'd have a different opinion.  I admit though that it was about as close to that line as I've seen a cab...this situation isn't in the same league as the Smash TV especially (being that cab was fully working if my recollection serves me).

In the end,  Shardian is right... the cab will look great... and will be played... and possibly will aid in getting others to enjoy this (or arcade collecting) hobby.

[MaximRecoil]

I hate to break this to you, but I don't think plywood/particle board box is designed to last the test of time.

They will if you take care of them. That's what "preserving" is all about.

I tell you what, preserving these games don't mean ---Cleveland steamer--- if there aren't new generations who fall in love with them.

That's an opinion. If it was a universal opinion, then museums would throw out about 99% of their stuff that only a small segment of the population is actually interested in. Do you care about a basic bowl from 3rd century India by any chance? Are they particularly popular with the kids these days? Should they be gold plated for some extra "bling" in order to stir up interest?

As even frizzle has said, if it weren't for MAME, this site, and bastard MAME cabs, he would not be where he is in the hobby. Same for me. Same for alot of folks who were not old enough to fully enjoy the Golden Age of arcades. The guy has shown his love for the hobby in the detail he has presented. I wouldn't doubt it if he ends up restoring several cabinets eventually.

The same thing can be accomplished by building your own cabinet, or starting with a non-classic.  

[SavannahLion]

Mona Lisa to give her a big set of jugs would be "preserving history", because a lot more people would be interested in looking at it.

[RayB]

Page 6 here we come!

[Sir Auros]

Chad, the point I think you're missing, or maybe you see it and don't care, is that there is a difference between disagreeing with what he's doing and calling him names for doing it and acting like an ass.

The first two pages of his thread had critical responses that were civil and reasonable. Once some people came in months later on page three, it turned very nasty. csa3d has been nothing but civil as far as I've seen.

Also, you might want to be more clear on who "the guy" is. Your posts read ambiguously to me. Am I "the guy," or is csa3d "the guy?" 

[yalborap]

Chad, the point I think you're missing, or maybe you see it and don't care, is that there is a difference between disagreeing with what he's doing and calling him names for doing it and acting like an ass.

The first two pages of his thread had critical responses that were civil and reasonable. Once some people came in months later on page three, it turned very nasty. csa3d has been nothing but civil as far as I've seen.

Also, you might want to be more clear on who "the guy" is. Your posts read ambiguously to me. Am I "the guy," or is csa3d "the guy?" 

We're all "The guy". There's a tiny bit of him in every one of us.

[Sir Auros]

Like an inner-child, or cancer?

[ChadTower]

You can't be The Guy until you beat The Guy.  Woo!

[yalborap]

Like an inner-child, or cancer?

Both!

[Sir Auros]

I'd rather be referred to as "The Dude."

[FrizzleFried]

Chad, the point I think you're missing, or maybe you see it and don't care, is that there is a difference between disagreeing with what he's doing and calling him names for doing it and acting like an ass.

The first two pages of his thread had critical responses that were civil and reasonable. Once some people came in months later on page three, it turned very nasty. csa3d has been nothing but civil as far as I've seen.

Also, you might want to be more clear on who "the guy" is. Your posts read ambiguously to me. Am I "the guy," or is csa3d "the guy?" 

[brandon]

Its like sticking it to "The Man"  Those of us who don't think of Galaxian as Unicorn tears are "The Guy"

[brandon]

Chad, the point I think you're missing, or maybe you see it and don't care, is that there is a difference between disagreeing with what he's doing and calling him names for doing it and acting like an ass.

The first two pages of his thread had critical responses that were civil and reasonable. Once some people came in months later on page three, it turned very nasty. csa3d has been nothing but civil as far as I've seen.

Yeah.. especially when Frizzle called him a --cream-filled twinkie-- and said his project was "ASStastic"  The "Collector community" is a civil bunch eh?  and where is this "community"?  Waco,TX?

[FrizzleFried]

Friggin' Nivo cleaned this thread up already once.  I see you're still pissing in it?  How about showing a little class and follow the direction of the moderator and keep this discussion to the topic at hand...

please maintain subject matter to on topic discussion only.

[brandon]

*nudge* *nudge* just a little ribbing.. don't take it personal

[FrizzleFried]

Not the place... not the time.  It's called stirring the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and frankly,  John's a little tired of it (I know,  I got a taste of it elsewhere).

[brandon]

Not the place... not the time.  It's called stirring the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and frankly,  John's a little tired of it (I know,  I got a taste of it elsewhere).

I agree.. just seems a bit of a double standard when YOU are on the recieving end... but I agree enough is enough.. Maybe the thread should be locked

EDIT:
I still stand by my opinion that you and Fozzy chewed that guys ass in excess.. its had nothing to do with my opinion of Maming classics because as I said I agree with you for the most part.  I just think that folks should've been more civil towards CSA3D..  Maming classics gives BYOAC a bad name?  so does flaming newcomers to the forum..

[FrizzleFried]

[SithMaster]

Move along, move along.

edit- so is Saint going to have this rulebook printed or will it be pdf only?

[brandon]

Move along, move along.

edit- so is Saint going to have this rulebook printed or will it be pdf only?

Its going to be an appendix in later revisions of his book

[jlfreund]

My 2c - the lifetime of a cabinet is 10-20yrs.  It may seem relevant to discuss the preservation of these dying cabinets now, when most of them are at end of life but still barely salvageable.

But in the long term, this community is really going to be about preservation of the code.  The software is the thing that needs to survive forever.  We only need the cabinets and the hardware to survive just long enough to get the software emulation to 100%.

Once that is done, no one will care in 50 years from now what happened to the original cabinets between the years 1980 - 2020. 

Jason

[CheffoJeffo]

I'll disagree with jlfreund to some extent and choose agree with Xiaou2  ... for a number of games, the original hardware is an important component of preservation.

And, to be consistent with my preservationist leanings (although those leanings are not nearly as pronounced as they once were), I give fair warning of an upcoming project I have in the queue that will convert a gutted (e.g. absolutely nothing original left) Xenophobe into a horizontal trackball/spinner MAME cabinet. If you want to pay me what I paid for it and haul it out of the basement, then come and get it.

No rush, though, I don't seem to be ripping through my projects like Knievel does ...

[MaximRecoil]

My 2c - the lifetime of a cabinet is 10-20yrs.  It may seem relevant to discuss the preservation of these dying cabinets now, when most of them are at end of life but still barely salvageable.

But in the long term, this community is really going to be about preservation of the code.  The software is the thing that needs to survive forever.  We only need the cabinets and the hardware to survive just long enough to get the software emulation to 100%.

Once that is done, no one will care in 50 years from now what happened to the original cabinets between the years 1980 - 2020. 

Jason

Interesting prophecy. I doubt highly that you are correct though, or even close to being correct. Emulation has been close enough to 100% that no one can tell the difference, on many games, for years. Yet, there is still obviously quite a market for original hardware.

There will always be people who want the real thing.

[DaveMMR]

Just a thought, eschewing any "ethics".  Wouldn't it make more financial sense to make a attempt to sell a dedicated classic that's in decent shape to a collector and try to get another cab in disrepair for cheap?  You really can't sell "MAME Machines" legally. (Although you can sell an empty cabinet with a computer thrown in sans software, I'd imagine) 

[saint]

Its going to be an appendix in later revisions of his book

Actually, it's appendix B of the current book

Preserving Versus MAME’ing the Past

It seems like such a good idea at first thought. Building a home arcade cabinet is a lot of fun, but it can be a good bit of work. Why not take an already existing arcade cabinet, strip out all the stuff you don’t need, and turn it into your home arcade cabinet? It can be really cheap -- throw away cabinets go for a dollar at arcade auctions, nice cabinet shells with artwork and monitors can go for $100 to $150. It’s easy -- instead of building from scratch you simply have to clean it up and you’re ready to go. What’s not to like? What’s the big fuss about?

Most likely you picked up this book due to happy memories of time spent in an arcade, feeding quarters into some machine that you were determined to beat or get a high score on.  Maybe you missed the heyday of the arcades and would like to get a glimpse of it now. Either way, to put it in a nutshell, most of us are trying to recreate a part of the past that we can visit whenever we wish. That seems harmless enough, what’s the great debate about then? The issue is this:

Please don't destroy that past as you attempt to recreate it!

Classic arcade cabinets -- Tron, StarWars, Galaxian, etc. are a dying breed.  They suffer from the ravages of time and conversion to other games. Some will sit in a leaky warehouse until the elements turn it into kindling. Other beautiful classic arcade cabinets will get converted into some mindless fighting game (with apologies to fighting game fans) when the original stops making money. The problem is that classic arcade cabinets represent a finite resource. The arcades of yesterday are just that -- a thing of the past. Barring a scattering of reproduction projects, these classic cabinets cannot be replaced. As if these problems were not bad enough for classic arcade cabinet fans and collectors, suddenly home arcade cabinets (often referred to as MAME cabinets for the emulator most often used on them) started popping up. No one begrudges someone building a personal cabinet from scratch. However, every time a classic arcade cabinet is converted to a home arcade machine, somewhere someone cringes now there’s one fewer cabinet available to collectors.

To an arcade collector, modifying a classic arcade cabinet is akin to chopping down old growth redwood forests. The person doing so may have the legal right to their actions, but they are doing a disservice to humanity. Granted, the degree of the problem is certainly different. Hacking apart an old Robotron cabinet won’t cause environmental problems or displace animals (except, perhaps, a family of mice). It will mean, however, that there’s one less Robotron cabinet in the world. That same cabinet could be some collector’s “holy grail” -- the one item they’re looking for to complete their collection. Even if the cabinet is in bad shape, someone probably has the parts and desire to rebuild it and restore it, if only they had the cabinet.

On the other hand, there are a bunch of not-so-classic cabinets, generic cabinets, and the aforementioned already-been-mutilated (converted) cabinets out there. Those are much better candidates for conversion to a home arcade cabinet than a nice classic cabinet. Yes, they usually mean more work for you than a cabinet that’s in nice condition. That’s a small price to pay for entering the classic arcade community. You don’t have to destroy a classic arcade cabinet to get the convenience of using an already constructed cabinet for your project.

If you must use a classic arcade cabinet for your home machine (which is, after all, totally within your rights as owner of the cabinet), please consider a few limitations. Use a PC2JAMMA conversion, so that the original woodwork and artwork are kept intact. Restore what needs TLC instead of slapping black paint on it and putting up a customized logo. If you’re going to remove parts, sell or give them away instead of junking them. That way, the classic cabinet still exists, and its parts can go to help another classic machine live again.

There’s room for both home arcade cabinet builders and classic arcade collectors along the road to arcade nirvana. Many arcade cabinet builders end up becoming collectors as well. MAME led me to discover using real arcade controls, which in turn led me to my current collection of seven real arcade cabinets, two pinball machines, and an air hockey table! Many arcade collectors also end up adding an emulation (MAME) cabinet to their collection as well. A little consideration for both camps goes a long way. Enjoy your new hobby, and thank you for considering the impact of your choices on the arcade collecting community!

The material in this post is copyrighted and may not be reproduced without permission

Edit - couldn't stand posting only part of it. That's the entire appendix B. It's only 1 or so pages so I don't think anyone will mind my posting it. (I wrote it but don't own the copyright, the publisher does)

[fixedpigs]

to quote arcademaze...

A MAME Machine is a gateway drug to the hard stuff--the real deal.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=62439.msg620074#msg620074

[FrizzleFried]

to quote arcademaze...

A MAME Machine is a gateway drug to the hard stuff--the real deal.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=62439.msg620074#msg620074

It was for me....damned MAME...