Restoring vs. Maming a cabinet - The complete rule book

[csa3d]

All,

Seeing how there's a ton of debate over on my thread, and everyone is fired up with opinions of when Maming is ethical, I've taken the liberty to create a thread so that anyone who feels like campaigning a political debate has the proper thread to do so in.  Seems that even though I've been following this forum for a few years now, that there's still a bunch of unspoken rules that apparently everyone should know and live by.

So to open this debate, I'll start posing the following questions:

1.  Should anyone ever purchase an authentic arcade cabinet if they do not plan to completely restore the machine to it's original, historical beginning?
2.  At what point during a restoration, is it moral to deviate from the restore?
3.  What level of restoration counts as a complete restore, vs. a project modification, vs. a complete and utter disaster?
4.  Is a restore not a restore if the internals of a classic cab are not running on 100% authentic hardware?  Mutli-boards?  Using a non-standard CGA monitor?  Multi-panels?
5.  Is a restore still a restore if side art is reprinted onto vinyl, or does a restorer need to fill vinyl scratches and airbrush in the missing art?  Should artwork even be touched up, or should it feel "antique" in nature?
6.  Coin Door restores, does the restorer need to invest the money and effort into finding someone to completely powder coat and re-chrome, or is it O.K. to take these matters into your own hands?
7.  What cabs are OK to Mame (with skill or without skill)?  Which cabs are "off hands"?

To this point, I feel as though I have been a constructive part of this community, and have offered some opinions and help when I can.  As I get closer and closer to completing my project, I feel like there is more and more hate growing, when I feel nothing wrong with what I began.  Hopefully, a new reader can pounce upon this thread filled with all sorts of veteran experise, and can have the complete guide to read up on before enduring never ending flame wars in their project threads.

Let your true colors show.. and let's as a community, write the complete ethics guide in this thread.  At least these rule would be pubic, out in the open, and easily accessable by new forum members.

[FrizzleFried]

Dedicated cabinets of working (or damn near working) classic era arcade games are not to be destroyed by MAMEing them.  Pretty simple.

Gutted cabinets,  generic cabinets (Dynamo),  or home built cabinets are perfectly fine.   MAME is about preservation not destruction.   To take a working (or almost working) classic era arcade game in a dedicated cabinet and destroy it by MAMEing it is a douchey thing to do and runs counter to what this entire community is about.

Do you need to restore all classic arcade cabinets?  Not necessarily...some find charm in a well-worn dedicated arcade cabinet.

Are there exceptions to the rule?   Surely... but not many.   

Anyone who would take a working Galaxian (albeit with a monitor on the fritz) and destroy it by MAMEing it runs counter to the ideals of the vast majority of the folks here and I find it ironic that the same folks who berated the guy from another forum who did so to a Dig Dug (badly) are the same folks on their knees giving you praise for doing the same thing to your Galaxian (but with skill).

 

[DaveMMR]

I'm offering this without delving too deeply in the referenced project thread...

In this day and age, I can't see any necessity to gutting a perfectly fine classic, dedicated cab.  I've seen numerous threads where the builder says "it's my cab", "it's the only one I was able to get", "it's too expensive to restore", "no one else wants it", etc.  While they are all perfectly acceptable rationales, there is this hint that the maimer who utters these words is not trying hard enough (or just making excuses). 

Here's the thing: there are collectors all over the place willing to take a machine in need of a little TLC off your hand, and they're no further than a couple of clicks away.  Likewise, anyone can find a generic, gutted cab for cheap (maybe even free) with a little effort.  The internet makes this all so much simpler (Craigslist, eBay, etc.).  Trust me, someone wants it.

I find it hard to accept that turning a good condition Galaxian, Centipede, Donkey Kong, etc. into a MAME machine is ever a last resort. 

[csa3d]

To take a working (or almost working) classic era arcade game in a dedicated cabinet and destroy it by MAMEing it is a douchey thing to do and runs counter to what this entire community is about.

I guess I didn't read the mission statement on the Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum, that said I was doing something wrong.  I saw a non-working machine (it didn't boot up, hummed like crazy, and had a black screen) and BUILT MY OWN (arcade controls) working version from this, hereby taking something broken and breathing new life into it.  Is every classic hotrod car Chip Foose makes a disaster as well?

Are there exceptions to the rule?   Surely... but not many.

This uncertainty and grey area is exactly what this thread is here for.  Please list be more specific so that others know the rules better.

Anyone who would take a working Galaxian (albeit with a monitor on the fritz) and destroy it by MAMEing it runs counter to the ideals of the vast majority of the folks here

Last time I'll bring this up:
1.  It was probably close to being "complete", but did not work, nor never worked upon purchase.  I wouldn't not have mamed it if I saw it was working at time of purchase.  Give me SOME credit.
2.  It had substantial damage to the side art, coin door, water damage, and all sorts of cosmetic holes which I restored.  It was a project cab upon time of purchase.
3.  It did not even have original control panel, and came bearing a "romstar" control panel.  Again, incomplete.
4.  Anyone person who honestly had FULL intension of restoring this cab back to it's original demeanor, would have had to go through the same work I did to patch, paint, and improve the overall appearances.
5.  All original hardware and glasses I'm not using are being sold and parted out to folks who are in the restoration line.
[/quote]

Keep 'em coming.. we'll all get drunk and hug later.
-csa

[FrizzleFried]

I guess I didn't read the mission statement on the Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum, that said I was doing something wrong.  I saw a non-working machine (it didn't boot up, hummed like crazy, and had a black screen) and BUILT MY OWN (arcade controls) working version from this, hereby taking something broken and breathing new life into it.  Is every classic hotrod car Chip Foose makes a disaster as well?

Please do be mindful that we don't destroy what we're trying to re-create.  Many classic arcade machines are rare and worth a heck of a lot more intact than altered.  Ideal candidates for this type of project are machines that have already been abused by previous owners - artwork destroyed, poorly converted, etc...  If you have a classic cabinet in good shape, you can probably sell it to a collector and get a trashed but usable cabinet in the bargain.

That is posted right in the "CABINETS" link from the front page.   Plus being a smart ass isn't going to make any points.

You didn't breath new life in to your Galaxian.  You killed a worthwhile and fully restoreable Galaxian to create a MAME cabinet.  You didn't breath NEW LIFE in to it...you yanked whatever life that it had before out of it and replaced it with something that is much much "less" than what was there before.

[patrickl]

If you want a midway cabinet for your MAME project then simply buy a kit instead of damaging an original:
Midway Upright PC Cabinet - fully assembled arcade cabinet $375.00

[FrizzleFried]

Are there exceptions to the rule?   Surely... but not many.

This uncertainty and grey area is exactly what this thread is here for.  Please list be more specific so that others know the rules better.

Grey areas:  Previous dedicated cabinets that have already been JAMMAtized and/or converted to something completely different than what the original cabinet housed (note - these cab's are STILL prime for restoration,  but MAMEing most of them isn't considered a major sin).  Also,  certain dedicated cabinets are acceptable to MAME if the original hardware isn't operational...Pole Position is a title that comes to mind...they are a ---smurfette--- to get running and there are a shitload of them everywhere to the point that people are sending them to the bonfire.

I am sure there are other other exceptions for sure.  A dedicated Galaxian isn't one of them though.

[leapinlew]

Some more gray area: what defines a classic? One mans Kangaroo is another mans holy grail.

[pcb]

If you want a midway cabinet for your MAME project then simply buy a kit instead of damaging an original:
Midway Upright PC Cabinet - fully assembled arcade cabinet $375.00

Thanks for the plug!  We can do the same with Galaxian/Pac-man style cabs, or Joust style.  We are even considering doing the mini in a PC style with a drawer and computer bay.

 - Mike -

[csa3d]

at $175, a project Galaxian seemed like a better deal then these kits.  I did look into those fyi..
-csa

[Paladin]

Man, when did this board go from a fun place to plan and make arcade cabinets to a crusade to save all original cabs?  I've made a cab from scratch, converted a working classic cocktail, and restored cabinets that had been "hellcade" worthy conversions.  To me this is just a fun hobby, but both here and on the KLOV forums I'm seeing more and more people who think that we're destroying our nations heritage or something.

As far as I'm concerned you can do whatever the heck you want with any cab you buy or build.  The goal should be to make yourself happy, not worry if you're going to upset some arcade purist.  This is just a HOBBY people, based on machines that were designed simply to make a buck and then be resold, converted to play something else and eventually tossed out.  I'm not saying that they don't hold any intrisic value, but lately some people seem to have lost perspective of how "important" these big old toys are.

If you find yourself getting upset at someones plans for a cab, by all means point out the alternatives to them - but then take a step back, take a deep breath and tell yourself that it's only a hobby. 

[RayB]

To answer the main quesiton: There is no "morality". Just the opinions of a bunch of grumpy old men.

[Singapura]

In my opinion it depends how rare a cab is. If there are thousands around or if they are still made, do whatever you like. But if you mame a rare classic you should use the same methods modern restorers use on paintings or buildings. Make everything that is not in line with the original design reversible.  If you want to put in an LCD screen, do it in a way that it can be removed without damage. Same goes with the CP, don't drill holes in it where they don't belong. If you want to repaint, use the original paint etc. etc. It's your cab so you can do whatever you like with it but in my opinion there is a moral obligation to preserve history.

[Fozzy The Bear]

You're not looking for an ethics guide.... You're just looking to deflect what you see as negative attention away from the project thread you started.

As you want it posted here:

The supply of original complete cabs is not inexhaustible. They were made in relatively limited numbers. Most of them are already gone. In a few years there will be NONE of them left.

To destroy and mangle a complete one like you have done and then to come on here to brag about the supposed achievement, remains very sad and depressing. I still weep for the loss of this classic.

And it does bring this forum into disrepute!

I can only agree with DaveMMR and FrizzleFried. It's quite clear that you still don't understand what it is you have done to a historically important item.

1.  It was probably close to being "complete", but did not work, nor never worked upon purchase.  I wouldn't not have mamed it if I saw it was working at time of purchase.  Give me SOME credit.

Utter rubbish! In the first post of your project thread you claimed that when you powered it up there was some hum from the speakers and that it was making game sounds, but the screen was black. You then later claimed that it didn't boot up at all! If it was making game sounds then it was running the game! the only thing that was actually defective was the monitor or cabling.

Now you want credit for this destruction??

To part out and Mame a classic dedicated cabinet, that was clearly functional apart from the monitor and more or less complete is totally unacceptable and has NEVER been acceptable. Nor is it welcomed here.

There IS a moral responsibility to history and our heritage. What is the point of destroying parting out and mangling what we are supposed to be preserving!!

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[leapinlew]

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Best Regards? Really Fozzy? 

[protokatie]

Ok, I am not going to be making friends with my response, but here it is:

1. If you want to restore an arcade cab to its origonal (or as close as possible) condition, please do so.

2. If you bought it, you do with it as you see fit. (This could include everything from "MAMEing" it to making it into a fish tank, or even firewood). I know this goes against "ethics" and "morality" here, but lets face it, when it comes down to it, if you buy it, it is yours!

Personally, if I came across a rare cab and had the ability to buy it, I would atleast try to restore it. But you cant knock people who do other "things" with the cabs. They own them, and they have their own idea about what to do with them. If you have an objection, then try to buy the cab off of them before they "mod" it.

[fixedpigs]

'sweet...did you just buy the last dodo...?'
'yup...i'm roasting it up tonight...want to join me for dinner...?'

just because you can do something...doesn't mean you should...

[protokatie]

just because you can do something...doesn't mean you should...

Dont get me wrong, I DO want to see classics preserved! But at the same time, we can't demonize people who choose to do what they want with their cabs. It is a big grey area, and the "ethics" and "morality" are as abstract as they can be.

I just hope people here understand I am rooting for all people involved, and that I realize that there is more to the arcade culture than preserving the past.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Best Regards? Really Fozzy? 

I really must remember to change that sig line......   

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Fozzy The Bear]

It is a big grey area, and the "ethics" and "morality" are as abstract as they can be.

It's not at all abstract.... Look at it this way:
Take a genuine 1780's sailing ship and drop a 2000HP Diesel engine in it, cut the masts off, because they're no use any more... Oh and while we're about it lets just fit it with air horns and some go faster stripes down the sides.

You wouldn't do that, nobody would do that...... It's exactly the same thing!! and just as barbaric and disgusting.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[protokatie]

Take a genuine 1780's sailing ship and drop a 2000HP Diesel engine in it, cut the masts off, because they're no use any more... Oh and while we're about it lets just fit it with air horns and some go faster stripes down the sides.

I wasnt saying I agreed with such a thing, but I was saying that you cannot tell someone it is "wrong" to do such a thing. I was merely pointing out that there is no "law" that should exist that tells us what to do.

Say I want to take that late 1700's sailing ship and make it into a house (lived in something similar during my teen years), does that make it wrong?

[Fozzy The Bear]

I wasnt saying I agreed with such a thing, but I was saying that you cannot tell someone it is "wrong" to do such a thing. I was merely pointing out that there is no "law" that should exist that tells us what to do.

And I agree with you completely...... and in fact I said that to him in his other thread:
"While I'll acknowledge that at the end of the day, the cabinet was your property and therefore legally you can do as you wish with it, I will not acknowledge that it is morally right or acceptable in any way to butcher an evidently restorable item like that, to build a Mame cabinet."

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[my58vw]

As many people have said above the supply of cabinets will not be around forever. I own a cabinet from japan (Beatmania). There are maybe 200 - 300 working cabinets in the US, probably many less (I think the number is about 100). No one would think about maming a beatmania cab. Likewise there are other cabs which may be meaningful to someone out there... and for those people they are probably searching for those cabs now. In my world there is a game called beatmania III - VERY RARE, expecially in the US - we know of about 10 - 15 cabs in the US (arcade infinity 30 min. from me has beatmania III the final). Someone destroyed one of them about a year ago - people were up in arms.

If someone was to come up with a working classic cab it is nothing to put it up online and see if there are interest. Some classics are easier to get than others - games such as Ms. Pacman, etc. - and you can recreate them. Take something like an original burgertime, etc and try and recreate it easily.

Point is - it is not hard to make a very quality custom cabinet - or have one made (or buy a kit). I think it is challenging to buy a cab and convert it to mame - you have to undo engineering the factory did. If you can do that build your own - and it will be to your own style!

Of course we can not forget the joy of playing these games - we choose not to forget!

Enjoy your game!

[solderguy1]

I was at the SuperAuctions next to Ca Extreme last August and was shocked about how little interest there was in the arcade games.  A lot of $100 games and some working cabs didn't get a bid at all, especially some 90s fighters that were never popular to begin with.   Even the auctioneer was surprised, it was strange after reading on the net how SA events are always newbies overbidding and getting ripped off.
If I was starting out and knew what I know now about costs, I might have joined the darkside.  Heck, even a sheet of smoked glass set me back $40.  I'm actually paying extra for the joy of doing things myself. 

[SavannahLion]

There IS a moral responsibility to history and our heritage. What is the point of destroying parting out and mangling what we are supposed to be preserving!!

In some small minor defense, parting out seems to often be the only way for other cabs to survive. Parts to my current cab came from parted out cabs elsewhere. However, I admit that I don't know if those parted cabs were fully functional before they became organ donors. Of course, I'm specifically talking about hard to come by parts. Such as XY monitors, Star Wars yokes, etc. etc. I'm not entirely sure a blind cab automatically qualifies it for MAME.

While I don't necessarily agree with what csa3d did to his cab or how he chose to go about it. I don't see csa3d as being the worst enemy to the destruction of classic cabs. Cases in point.

When I went to go pick up my Z's from a retiring arcade operator. I was absolutely shocked by the cabinet graveyard I witnessed. To my dismay I spotted cabs like Pac-Man, Super off Road, Neo Geo and numerous others destroyed and thrown into a goat pen. Marquees, monitors and other salvageables were  either left out in the rain to be destroyed by goats or store in a barn to be covered in an inch of chicken ---Cleveland steamer--- and feathers. I refuse to think about what kind of marquees I might have inadvertently destroyed because I couldn't see them while walking around in there. I would've happily given up the Z's in exchange to save that Pac-Man. (As it was, I only managed to locate the converted Pac-Man board and save it). The operator told me that it never occurred to him to place the cabinets on Craigs, eBay or even FreeCycle. He figured since he had them in storage for years that no one would want them. 

Several months ago I was reading a thread in RGVAC (or was it on the KLOV forums?). This group is supposed to be all about the preservation of arcade cabinets. Instead I read an account of one collector who was so fed up with other collectors that he destroyed perfectly good monitor glass. A Baby Pac-man was smashed with a hammer amongst many other irreplaceable parts. And the worst part isn't because he did what he did. The worst part is that others on that forum applauded his actions. He did it because he was fed up with the arcade community as a whole and the amateur collectors that (as he states) never pick up their parts when promised.

What about the jerk that decided to drop a supposedly nonworking ? Even though it was nonworking, I myself would've liked to have that cabinet. That cabinet would have been an excellent candidate for MAME.

Even better, anyone remember the money grubbing retarded ---fudgesicle--- nut that destroyed a Death Race... from a museum no less?? Nevermind what Havok says, this was a fantaqstic piece of artwork (the cab, not the game) and only the ---smurfing--- door was salvaged and sold.

Then there are ---uvulas--- like and other images like it found at HellCade. What kind of retarded monkey ---uvula--- sets fire to Baby Pac-Man, Tempest, Tron, and Space Invaders cabs? What kind of person takes a ---Cleveland steamer--- inside a Battlezone? Every week I see someone looking for something from at least one of these cabinets.

The real enemies aren't people like csa3d who "preserve" cabinets by their own definition. The real enemies are those people who have so much and callously destroys these bits of history.

csa3d sees what he did as "hot rodding" his cab (we all need to start using the same dictionary here). These other people don't even care enough to do even that.

I was at the SuperAuctions next to Ca Extreme last August and was shocked about how little interest there was in the arcade games.  A lot of $100 games and some working cabs didn't get a bid at all, especially some 90s fighters that were never popular to begin with.   Even the auctioneer was surprised, it was strange after reading on the net how SA events are always newbies overbidding and getting ripped off.

Wish I went I bet it's because California has a softening housing market and there's been a lot of concern about jobs, mortgages, etc. Last year, I saw a lot of stuff go for free or really cheap. Now, people are selling rusty lamps for too much. I've seen the same six cabinets floating around on Craigs with asking prices that are way too high.

[bfauska]

Scarcity in collections (VAPS.org)
Very Common - There are 167 known instances of this game owned by one of our 900 members. Of these, 104 of them are original dedicated machines, 6 of them are conversions in which game circuit boards have been placed in another game cabinet, and 57 of them are only circuit boards which a collector could put into a generic case if desired.

Of the 40,598 video games (3,114 unique) tracked by the Video Game Preservation Society, this game ranks a 81 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most commonly seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on ownership records.

Wanted - There are 5 VAPS members currently looking for this game

I bet the 104 owned by the members are in severe threat of disappearing for ever. ALL will be lost and we won't have any idea of what that game used to be. OR maybe the 104 owned by members are just a small portion of the existing cabs in the wild and even a modified classic with some obvious changes gives us an insight into what the cabinet was historically. More of these things have been thrown out than butchered. It's a frickin' game, not a priceless one-of-a-kind painting or 300 year old hand made ship. Just the number of Galaxians restored by members of this forum is enough to maintain the historical preservation of this cabinet.

Hot rods make a connection to the past that many people wouldn't feel from a bone-stock classic. A MAMEd cabinet may very well spark interest in some future restorer or collector that the same cabinet with one game they have no particular interest in could never do.

As an example of how parting something out can be good, lets look at a simplified scenario. Say that there are 10 remaining "ClassicCade" cabinets in the world, all with various forms of wear and tear. If not one of those machines gets parted out then there will be no perfect/complete machines. If the one with a good game board gets parted out and the one with the good monitor gets that part and the CP from one of the others then you have one good machine, for people to praise and put in a shrine for all of eternity. SOME cabinets have to give up their functional original parts for ANY restorations to actually happen.

[brandon]

I say Do whatever the hell you want with YOUR cabinet.  Anybody who says you should restore it should have their checkbook ready to finance your restoration project.  but since its your money, time and effort going into it then tell them to stuff it. I DO understand where people are coming from though.. I would hate to see somebody Mame a Dragon's Lair or something rare like that.. but honestly does anybody know how many Ms Pacman/Galaga cabinets where made?  I have four of them myself.. I paid $40 each for them.  I wouldnt Mame them though.  I think they are a one trick pony not really suitable for Maming.  If you can tack on a custom control panel and mount the monitor/PC without drilling a bunch of holes and maiming the thing (pun intended) then have at it.  Its your cabinet and if you decide to sell it somebody else can take the time and effort to track down the original PCB, artwork,etc to restore it back.  I really dont know why everybody gets so bent out of shape about this.  Its quite silly.

[IronBuddha]

It's one thing to have an opinion and tell the person you don't agree with his approach, it's another thing though to act like it's the end of the world and make that member look like a complete jackass just because of it. People wouldn't want to post things here because they think they would get insulted to death. People not posting=less traffic.

Here's my point:

Tomorrow I'm picking up a super pacman cab because I don't have the time, money or tools to build a cab my own. It's completely gutted out but has the side art and marquee. So what's wrong if I converted it to a mame cabinet? I'm not painting over it or destroying the marquee so later if I built another cab all I would do is take everything out and it would just be a gutted cab again for someone else to restore or use it. Is that a violation?

And the thing is, this is going to be my very first project and I would love to share the whole thing and get advise etc. But I don't know if I would want to share what I'm doing because honestly I think people would probably just flame me off these boards. It sucks

[Fozzy The Bear]

Tomorrow I'm picking up a super pacman cab because I don't have the time, money or tools to build a cab my own. It's completely gutted out but has the side art and marquee. So what's wrong if I converted it to a mame cabinet?

Absolutely nothing's wrong with that...... it's a prime candidate for being Mamed.... and neither would you be flamed for it. But he didn't do that. He gutted and destroyed a more or less complete and working (apart from the monitor) 1980's cab. Then he claimed that having done that, he now had the skills to restore or build a cab from scratch.

If he wanted to learn the skills then he could have done that on a generic or already converted cab or an already destroyed or parted out cab. There are enough of those around for that to be done, not to destroy a complete one.

SavannahLion, by your analogies you're saying it's OK to do it because other people are doing it as well...... Great! so it's ok to walk out into the street with a shotgun and blow a few peoples heads off, because somebody else is doing it. It must therefore be OK.... QED.  I'll take bets that in ten to fifteen years time, you'll be looking back at this and saying, why didn't we do something to save them, when we could do. Just because arcade operators throw them out destroy them and leave them to rot, doesn't mean it's OK for us to destroy them.

That's exactly why in less years than you think, the heritage we have will be gone, if we don't take a stand and actively discourage this sort of vandalism now.

The mission statement in relation to cabinets of the Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum, puts it quite clearly: "Please do be mindful that we don't destroy what we're trying to re-create.  Many classic arcade machines are rare and worth a heck of a lot more intact than altered." Destroying a more or less complete classic just so you can play games at home is NEVER OK.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[CheffoJeffo]

I've actually written a couple of responses to this thread and didn't bother submitting either ... these threads always end up with the "grumpy old men" against the "it's my cab" folks. I'm tired of being labelled as a grumpy old man and particularly having some noob (who always seems to think he is the rational one) call me silly. Further, many of the "it's my cab" folks seems to be people who eventually end up lamenting the lack of classic cabs available.

[NOTE: Before anybody thinks that I am attributing positions to people in THIS thread, my beliefs come from the myriad threads on the same topic ... but feel free to notice the parallels]

This type of thing is always going to happen.

If the cab is complete and close-to-working, then I would certainly prefer restoration.

Depending on how far the cab is from complete (e.g. if it has been converted), then I don't mind a tasteful MAMEing. mmmPeanutButter (a BYOACer who is local to me) saved a busted-up, badly-converted Centipede and made perhaps the most beautiful MAME cab I have ever seen (and it is better-looking in RealLife(tm) than in pictures). In the process, he did not destroy a single Centipede element and, in fact, restored many Centipede elements (including the artwork). His cab looks better than any Centipede I have ever seen in RealLife(tm).

OTOH, we see too many folks doing stupid things like bolting stuff onto classic cabinets. There is a reason that Hellcade and CrapMAME exist -- people do bad things to classic cabs.

One thing that hasn't been mentionned is that, for those who hang around longer than the first MAME build, people's opinions on the topic change. I can think of at least one BYOACer who is staunchly against MAIMing classics. At one point I implored him not to MAME a classic cocktail citing that he had the skills to resto. Now he's got a much nicer collection than I do.

OTOH, my own personal opinions have softened over the same time period -- I've seen too many classic cabs chopped up for firewood, despite being offered for extended periods of time for free. And the guys doing it aren't evil -- they are typically far more serious than people here are about preservation.

OTOH, anybody who destroys a DeathRace deserves to die a hideous and painful death.

EDIT: It's HellCade, you twit ...

[TOK]

Here are my guidelines...

1 First off, its yours, so you could do whatever you want with it. My feeling is if you saved it from the dumpster and MAME it, at least its loved. The Asteroids burning in my avatar is real. I didn't burn it, but it was destroyed because it was parted out and needed a monitor. In my opinion, It's better that a classic get MAME'd than that.

2 Certain cabs are typically considered holy and shouldn't be MAME'd. few quick examples of this are Star Wars, Tron, Tempest, Dragons Lair and Major Havoc (Ironically, three of the games on this list are usually gutted because the monitors suck and cost a lot to repair).

3 If you do modify a cab that is considered classic, doing so in a way that it could be converted back won't meet with too much resistance... Don't hack 20 inch holes in the sides to install neon MAMECADE logos.

4 A game that has already been messed up by a prior conversion is pretty much fair game. There were thousands of Pac Man's made, and half of them were converted to Rush N Attack or some crappy wresting game. If the art and control panel are hacked already, you're not hurting anything by hacking them again.

[RetroACTIVE]

Here are my guidelines...

1 First off, its yours, so you could do whatever you want with it. My feeling is if you saved it from the dumpster and MAME it, at least its loved. The Asteroids burning in my avatar is real. I didn't burn it, but it was destroyed because it was parted out and needed a monitor. In my opinion, It's better that a classic get MAME'd than that.

2 Certain cabs are typically considered holy and shouldn't be MAME'd. few quick examples of this are Star Wars, Tron, Tempest, Dragons Lair and Major Havoc (Ironically, three of the games on this list are usually gutted because the monitors suck and cost a lot to repair).

3 If you do modify a cab that is considered classic, doing so in a way that it could be converted back won't meet with too much resistance... Don't hack 20 inch holes in the sides to install neon MAMECADE logos.

4 A game that has already been messed up by a prior conversion is pretty much fair game. There were thousands of Pac Man's made, and half of them were converted to Rush N Attack or some crappy wresting game. If the art and control panel are hacked already, you're not hurting anything by hacking them again.

Pretty much in line with my thoughts as well... I don't believe all machines are classics... there was a lot of crap built just for JAMMA conversions and such that don't have the significance as most of the late 70's early 80's machines.

[shardian]

My thoughts on old cabinets:

*If the cabinet is in passable shape, but with bad hardware: Restore, or MAME in a recoverable fashion. I prefer the continued use of the arcade monitor if possible.

*If the cabinet is is bad shape, but with good hardware: By all means, restore or try to pass on to someone who wants it and will restore it. For instance, I personally would not want a restored Galaxian -- the game bores me. I do know two collectors local that would either trade me, or buy it from me to restore themselves. Now if the cabinet is in horrible, horrible shape, then offer up all of the internals to someone who has a decent empty cabinet.  restoring a cabinet with full artwork can be a VERY expensive outing, and odds are quite high that your investment will outweigh any possible returns. If the game doesn't have a sentimental value, don't waste your money on a full restore, but clean it up as good as possible.

My personal philosophy is that the main attraction to old arcade games were the cabinets. I prefer machines to look stock, but don't really care what is on the inside. I also think restored classics with a cleverly built CP can be very pretty. Building a custom CP that can be taken off and replaced with stock is brilliant in my book.


Now as to your personal case of the Galaxian, with your obvious woodworking skills with the CP, you should have definitely just built a Midway from scratch. I think that is the biggest beef people have here.

[javeryh]

My thoughts are first and foremost do what you want because it's yours BUT if I were to come across a classic cab that I basically wanted only for the cabinet I would definitely try and part everything out that is salvageable like the artwork, boards, buttons, joysticks, coin door, etc.  It's kind of like how I feel about abortion - it's definitely not for me and something I don't personally believe in but I would never in a million years want it to be illegal or judge someone for going through with it because it's really none of my business.

At the end of the day, I'm just happy that someone is actually building an arcade machine - MAME or not - because this "hobby" certainly won't be around forever.  The classic arcade scene lasted about 15 years total and is really only nostalgic/meaningful to a very very very small portion of the world and one day we will all be dead and gone and it's not like today's teenager is going to seriously be playing Pac-man in an arcade cabinet in the year 2085. 

[patrickl]

I would say that there is a line between destroying a classic and only mildly damaging the enterior. Isn't it better that an arcade fan saves the cab and stores the parts rather than that the thing ends up as landfill?

[protokatie]

because this "hobby" certainly won't be around forever.

Im sure there must have been a lost episode of StarTrek Voyager in which Tom Paris builds a Ms Pacman cabinet from scratch! So even in the 24th century there will be cab makers!

 

[fixedpigs]

My thoughts are first and foremost do what you want because it's yours BUT if I were to come across a classic cab that I basically wanted only for the cabinet I would definitely try and part everything out that is salvageable like the artwork, boards, buttons, joysticks, coin door, etc.  It's kind of like how I feel about abortion - it's definitely not for me and something I don't personally believe in but I would never in a million years want it to be illegal or judge someone for going through with it because it's really none of my business.

“No matter what I say, it draws controversy. It's sort of like the abortion issue. If you're for it, you're a son of a gun. If you're against it, you're a son of a gun.” - bm...

[brandon]

Here are my guidelines...

1 First off, its yours, so you could do whatever you want with it. My feeling is if you saved it from the dumpster and MAME it, at least its loved. The Asteroids burning in my avatar is real. I didn't burn it, but it was destroyed because it was parted out and needed a monitor. In my opinion, It's better that a classic get MAME'd than that.

2 Certain cabs are typically considered holy and shouldn't be MAME'd. few quick examples of this are Star Wars, Tron, Tempest, Dragons Lair and Major Havoc (Ironically, three of the games on this list are usually gutted because the monitors suck and cost a lot to repair).

3 If you do modify a cab that is considered classic, doing so in a way that it could be converted back won't meet with too much resistance... Don't hack 20 inch holes in the sides to install neon MAMECADE logos.

4 A game that has already been messed up by a prior conversion is pretty much fair game. There were thousands of Pac Man's made, and half of them were converted to Rush N Attack or some crappy wresting game. If the art and control panel are hacked already, you're not hurting anything by hacking them again.

+1

[ChadTower]

2 Certain cabs are typically considered holy and shouldn't be MAME'd. few quick examples of this are Star Wars, Tron, Tempest, Dragons Lair and Major Havoc (Ironically, three of the games on this list are usually gutted because the monitors suck and cost a lot to repair).

...and Dragon's Lair is usually gutted because the laserdisc player is a total ---smurfette---.

[SavannahLion]

SavannahLion, by your analogies you're saying it's OK to do it because other people are doing it as well...... Great! so it's ok to walk out into the street with a shotgun and blow a few peoples heads off, because somebody else is doing it. It must therefore be OK.... QED.  I'll take bets that in ten to fifteen years time, you'll be looking back at this and saying, why didn't we do something to save them, when we could do. Just because arcade operators throw them out destroy them and leave them to rot, doesn't mean it's OK for us to destroy them.

Fozzy, I normally respect your opinion, but today... well.... You're so upset over csa3d's cab that you're not seeing the bigger picture for what it's worth. The point I'm making is that you need to choose your battles. There are a lot worse atrocities than what csa3d did to his cab. It saddens me to see people, operators and so-called collectors alike, burning, shredding and throwing otherwise good classic cabs away while lots of people, like myself, would happily take those cabs off their hands.

Think about what's worse? 50 people each MAMEing a classic cab or the operators who irreparably destroy 50 classic cabs to get their rocks off? Or what about cheesy operators who do irreparably bad conversions to classic cabinets? Or like the one operator I encountered, destroyed cabs realizing too late there are people out there who want them.

You wrote:

I'll take bets that in ten to fifteen years time, you'll be looking back at this and saying, why didn't we do something to save them, when we could do.

You don't think we wouldn't think your statement would never be true? It comes down to being realistic. I like the work that csa3d did, however I don't like the fact he did it to a near working Galaga. Yeah, he did say one thing at first then change it midstream. That might be something to hold against him. What is your proposal that this sort of thing doesn't happen again? You want Saint to send csa3d into exile? You want to start a classic cab trading programme?

Due to the sheer number of cabinets and the general community as a whole, you CAN NOT save every cab out there. It's just not possible. Nearly each and every single one of us, regardless of how you want to slice it, is in this hobby on our own. We are all in competition with each other to locate that white elephant of ours. And even if we could pick up every cab we came across, we would all quickly run into storage problems.

You need to be realistic Fozzy. Flat out shunning csa3d and others like him is only going to force them to lurk here or congregate elsewhere where that sort of thing is happily supported and encouraged. No matter what you, or anybody else, desires, every single one of the members on this forum are going to do their own thing. Coalesce into decent bargaining group that doesn't do boneheaded dumb moves like the museum sending a Death Race to its death and you might have something.