Tank II

[ChadTower]

Peale helped me get this a couple of years ago... back when I was still in the "cabs are so hard to find" phase of the hobby.  He pointed it out to me and I drove all the way from Southern MA to near the QC border in VT to get it.  Him and I have poked at it a bit once or twice but basically it has been sitting in my basement for 2-3 years.  Time to get this sucker working again.

[DreamCast Kid]

Nice looking project there! I remember seeing that game in a bowling alley many years ago. The monitor was so far gone you could barely see the game How big is that cabinet? Looks like it be fairly easy to cut out and put together, do you have any measurements?

[ChadTower]

I could get measurements, not sure how to diagram up angles and the like, though.  Never done that before.  It is about 54" tall at the very top.

[IG-88]

Look at those boards! Thats awesome! 

[Level42]

Peale helped me get this a couple of years ago... back when I was still in the "cabs are so hard to find" phase of the hobby.  He pointed it out to me and I drove all the way from Southern MA to near the QC border in VT to get it.  Him and I have poked at it a bit once or twice but basically it has been sitting in my basement for 2-3 years.  Time to get this sucker working again.

Yeah, tell me about it:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=41578.0

Looks like the same monitor I was scared to death to power that monitor up.
At least, you still have the PCB(s).........

[ChadTower]

I honestly don't think this one is that far from working unless some NLA part is gone.  Almost all of those chips are the same one - I'm guessing an early TIP but I haven't looked it up yet.  I get neck glow in the monitor and the screen does light up but I don't hear any chatter at all.  It has so much screen burn you can see the whole tank playfield without anything being drawn.

I think I'm going to start by repinning all of the connectors, capping the monitor, and maybe capping the game boards.  Those ribbon connectors scare me, though - they're soldered to the boards in what appears to be a fragile manner.

EDIT:

Thanks for posting that link to your old thread... gave me a good direction to go on the monitor.  I'm going to look into Paige's reference that you can take the RCA output from a VCR in order to get this monitor working again.  That would be the yellow cable, obviously... I never knew there were two wires in that thin yellow cable.

[Level42]

Haha You're welcome. Yeah B/W raster should be about the easiest thing to connect up.....if what you say is correct, the sync is also in that signal.

Looking back at those pics I must say the cab looks nice. It's worse in reality though....
Poor thing is still waiting it's turn....could be a while.....

[ChadTower]

Heh... found the thread this cab came from... man some of us were newbs to the hobby back then, myself most of all.  That was like a month after I registered and I knew practically zip about electronics theory and less about arcade games.

[divemaster127]

That is a awesome cab, I remember playing the game, thats been a few moons ago
dm

[ChadTower]

Pulled the "chassis" last night and have a cap kit in hand.  This game appears to have never been worked on at all.  I can't find any signs of someone having been on the boards, in the wires, anywhere.  I'd like to clean everything off but I'm not sure how safe it would be to wet down a circuit board from the mid 70s.

[LeedsFan]

What's your intention? Just to get it up and running or a full restoration? That monitor looks to have quite bad burn in it in the first pic.

[ChadTower]

What's your intention? Just to get it up and running or a full restoration? That monitor looks to have quite bad burn in it in the first pic.

I'll get it working well, clean it up as well as it will go, and then from there see how much needs to be done for a full restoration.  Honestly, the only two obvious things I see that it needs are T molding and a repaint on the coin door.  The rest are just dirty.  Maybe fill-smooth/repaint the back.

The bigger question is what I'll do with it once I'm done.  I don't really have plans to keep it and it won't have much monetary value.

[Zakk]

Nice!  This would be a cool one to get working and looking good.  Real piece of arcade history. 

[divemaster127]

I wish you were closer to where i lived I would like to buy that machine from you.
dm

[divemaster127]

Chad, I bet you have some pretty nice machines can you post some pics of all your goodies
dm

[ChadTower]

They're mostly all either folded up (pins) and stored while I work on the basement, or they're project vids that I haven't fixed yet.  The only two working vids I have at the moment can be seen somewhat in the background of those pics - Tempest and Space Duel.

[Level42]

Heh... found the thread this cab came from... man some of us were newbs to the hobby back then, myself most of all.  That was like a month after I registered and I knew practically zip about electronics theory and less about arcade games.

Yes Chad, we were young then (I wasn't registered yet even )

There's something about that 70's style I like. It's that period where you could see the vid games were still not "adult".

About the cleaning: Atari themselves suggested the washing of PCB's in their "The Book", and that was written late 70's I guess.....

[Games001]

Cabs are so hard to find phase... I am STILL looking in the Florida area for a single cab that is not $800+ (empty and ruined) 

[ChadTower]

About the cleaning: Atari themselves suggested the washing of PCB's in their "The Book", and that was written late 70's I guess.....

Do you have an electronic copy of that?  I don't think I do.


EDIT:  holy crap.  I was just looking at ionpool to see if they have The Book, and look at this... I have two 'scopes sitting here waiting for me and I have no idea how to use them.  Bang, bang, BANG.

[geomartin]

What's your intention? Just to get it up and running or a full restoration? That monitor looks to have quite bad burn in it in the first pic.

I don't think the screen burn is an issue on this game.  If my memory is correct, the maze never changes.

[IG-88]

Chad I think I may have "The Book" in PDF but it's too large too attach. Can I email it too you?

[ChadTower]

Chad I think I may have "The Book" in PDF but it's too large too attach. Can I email it too you?

Awesome!  Please do... use the email address attached to my profile.  Thanks!

[IG-88]

Um...can't seen to find any email.....

[ChadTower]

That's okay... amazingly it just popped up in Arcade Misc.  Thanks for being willing to send it, though.

The Book

Here is what it says on PCB cleaning.

[polaris]

chad your email address is hidden on your profile, in case you missed what IG was saying

[ChadTower]

Didn't know that... thanks for pointing it out.  I'll fix it.

Dirty chassis.


Clean chassis.



In circuit cap tester.  I've never used it before and I'm still trying to figure it out.  Anyone have any tips?

[polaris]

Chad , i've just been looking on klov at this. amazing, it was in its fifth generation by 1978, and the 8 player version. awesome stuff.

[IG-88]

I'm sure you all know about this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Arcade-Video-Schiffer-Collectors/dp/0764319256/
ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200192565&sr=8-1

It has this machine and quite a few others from that era. Quite a nice read.

[Level42]

Here I am, thinking Chad is the person to have read ALL threads on this forum, and he missed this :

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68787.msg709364#msg709364


Enjoy, o and two scopes is too much, send one of them

[ChadTower]

Here I am, thinking Chad is the person to have read ALL threads on this forum, and he missed this :

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68787.msg709364#msg709364


Enjoy, o and two scopes is too much, send one of them

Level42, I'm the one who put in the multimeter tutorial at the top of that thread. 

IG-88, I haven't seen that book, but have seen a few much like it.  I'll keep an eye out for a copy of that book, thanks.

I'm seriously considering taking out a 2600 for the living room again so the kids can spend some quality time with Combat before I get this working.  We used to have one there, but there's really only room for three consoles in the entertainment center, and the N64/GCube/Wii combo seems to keep everyone happiest.  The NES just got bumped by the Wii.

[ChadTower]

Dammit.  I just pulled a flat capacitor out as instructed by the cap kit sheet... but I can't tell which lead is positive and which is negative.  The board isn't marked and the cap isn't marked... the only hint is that one side has two leads twisted together, the other side has one lead. 

If it helps, it is an ERO 0.033uF (and the kit says to replace it with a 1uF).

[ChadTower]

Another dammit.  I'm pulling a couple of caps and have noticed that Bob included 25v replacements... the originals are 50v and his sheet says 50v.

[ChadTower]

Found some caps in my spares that matched the proper voltages, so I used those. 

I have the whole cap kit done now except that one that I can't figure polarity on...

A couple of the caps were off in other places, one on a small power PCB I hadn't seen, and one on the underside of the metal bracket the chassis PCB connects to...

There are two huge ass caps, maybe the power supply filter caps for the whole cabinet since I don't see any others, that should be swapped.  One of them has a whole bunch of ratings on it, though, so I need to figure out what to put in.

[Kevin Mullins]

Does this help?
Match the polarity to the resistors in the same circuit.

[Level42]

I had wrong voltage values in my G07 cap-kit from Bob as well. Mail him about it (it will cost him some sleep though !)

[IG-88]

I was wrong by the way. That encyclopedia doesn't have "Tank 2" in it. Every other Tank edition but not that one. Still a nice read tho...

[ChadTower]

Does this help?
Match the polarity to the resistors in the same circuit.

Thanks!  I had to use the schematics to locate a couple of caps, hadn't gotten around to locating that one yet.

Level42, I did email Bob... he says he wouldn't have made that mistake.  A little odd considering I am looking at all 4 of these caps at 25v rather than 50v.  Of course, I bought the kit a couple years ago, so I'm not worried about it.  I had the parts on hand from a "general monitors cap supply" I picked up a few months ago, can't remember who though.  $25 worth of various caps commonly used in monitors.

[ChadTower]

The one cap I'm still confused on... after a bit of advice from RGVAC, I may have pulled C17 instead of C16... but the most likely leads from C16 (as marked on the board) are for this component that looks exactly like a corn dog.  I've never seen a cap like that...

[Level42]

Does this help?
Match the polarity to the resistors in the same circuit.

Level42, I did email Bob... he says he wouldn't have made that mistake.  A little odd considering I am looking at all 4 of these caps at 25v rather than 50v. 

Yeah, his response to me was the same. But still he doubted a bit and asked me to mail a picture, which I did. He then went through hours of video tape (yeah, I couldn't believe it either, but apparantly he constantly films the packaging....... ) and couldn't find the mistake. Got a LONG e-mail about how he couldn't explain this happening as he is so precise and his way of working etc.
I guess he's just very proud of his (almost) fault-less process

He sent me the correct caps right away, by the way. Bob's great, even though he doesn't accept PP/CC....

Isn't that a tantalum cap ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalum_capacitor






B.t.w. what is a corn dog ?

[ChadTower]

B.t.w. what is a corn dog ?

That does appear to be it, thanks... I had that originally pegged as C16 but didn't think it was a capacitor.  Now I know

That's a corn dog... a hot dog encased in corn bread.

[Level42]

Aha !

Gotta eat one next time I visit the US

[ChadTower]

Cap kit is done... not sure of the state of the power supply filter caps, but I can address those next if necessary.  Now I just have to figure out how to get a known good video signal into it, probably from a VCR.

[ChadTower]

Doh... the thing has a 2A and a 3A fuse in it... the manual says they should both be 1A SB.  I'll have to get some tomorrow.

[ChadTower]

I've never worked on a monitor independently of the cab before, so I want to be sure my plan is solid... have a thread in the monitor forum so someone can point out my folly before I end the world.

[shardian]

Aha !

Gotta eat one next time I visit the US

NEVER ATE A CORNDOG!!!

To make me feel less sorry for you, please add some great food you've had that Americans won't have had...if you can.

[Level42]

1) Dutch/Belgian Fries (THICK, not those poor skinny French stuff) with Mayonaise


2) Stroopwafels


3) Raw herring (freaking delicious ! Beats Sushi !!! This is THE way to eat it, hold it by it's tail, hang it over your mouth and.....eat )


4) Drop


5) Kroket


6) Chocoladevlokken (you eat it on a slice of bread)


7) Poffertjes (with powder suger and REAL butter)



Hah, and they say we have a terrible "cuisine" 

[ChadTower]

A lot of that stuff is available here under other names, I think....

...we used to catch herring by the thousands when I was a kid, when they migrated up narrow streams to spawn.  We'd just stand there with huge nets and pull them in, more fish than the stream could even handle.  I'm pretty sure they were herring, anyway.  My uncle had two sheds dedicated to smoking herring.

My brother and I tried to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring once.  It didn't go so well.

[Kevin Mullins]

Stroopwafels ROCK !!!   

(we get them sent to us as often as we can)


Ooh ...... Chocoladevlokken .....  that stuff too that I can't pronounce!!

[Level42]

Yeah, we bring them to American relatives and friends whenever we meet. They are quite popular with them

Maybe less-known: Dutch cigars are great. Brought some to a friend who loved cubans.....but the Dutch brands are a bit more "manly" I'd say, not as sweet tasting.

Had fun with friends from the UK when we were eating raw herring. Some tried it and loved it, some almost had to ......... at the mere sight of us eating them


Chad......did we get off-topic here ? I think we did. Sorry !!!

Kevin, my aunt in MA orders stuff at some Dutch store overthere, they have all these kind of things...need info ?
 

[ChadTower]

Chad......did we get off-topic here ? I think we did. Sorry !!!

Kevin, my aunt in MA orders stuff at some Dutch store overthere, they have all these kind of things...need info ?

I don't care about OT.  I'm one of BYOAC's biggest OT culprits.   

May as well post the MA store info here.  I live in MA.

[JimmyU]

And don't forget all that wonderful Belgian beer.

[shardian]

My mom ate herring all the time when I was a kid. Oh man that was nasty. Its the only food on earth that starts to smell better as it rots.

[Level42]

There are two things you don't smell

1) Herring
2) ......nahh.....I guess you figured it 

Chad: I know your from MA, it would have been nice if the New England meet could have materialised late 2006....I've spent most of the time in MA, but also NH (FUNSPOT !!!) NY, Vermont (is that correct ?)

Was a great holiday

[ChadTower]

Pins, connectors, and replacement for one of the filter caps ordered from Mouser.  I find it pretty annoying that Mouser won't give you an exact shipping charge figure when you submit the order.

[ChadTower]

Broke out my CRT tester/rejuvinator... the one I got from that massive Freecycle score a couple of years back but have no idea how to use... turns out it will work very nicely on this CRT, given that the tester was made in the mid 1970s too.  Have to get up the nads to try it, but once I do... it should make a real difference.

[ChadTower]

Read the manual back to back 3 times, then broke out the CRT tester to run this CRT through its paces.  It passed all tests except "G1 Shorts", which the manual says is a type of short circuit within the neck.  I tried to use the "Remove G1 Shorts" function but it didn't work.  Apparently that either means that the short is not repairable via this tester or that the function isn't working properly.  It is described as discharging a capacitor into specific pins to burn off whatever foreign material is causing the short... and I should see a small flash in the neck when it makes the attempt.  I saw no flash.  Given that the tester is 30 years old as well I'm betting that capacitor is dead, not building up the charge, and thus not properly discharging.  I'm thinking of opening up the tester and seeing if I can re-cap that too.  It's too cool a tool to not have working.

[Cakemeister]

Stroopwaffels FTW!

[ChadTower]

Just found this RGVAC thread.  Exactly what I'm looking for... plus look at the names in that thread.  Doesn't get more credible than those guys.

[Level42]

OK, OK. I get most of those abbreviations by now but what is FTW ?

Randy who ?

Bob who ?



Ten years ago !!

Randy writes:
"With so many CRTs in the world today, the ability to test and repair (yes, repair!) CRTs can be pretty darned handy."

How times have changed.....should now be:
"With so few remaining CRTs in the world today, the ability to test and repair (yes, repair!) CRTs can be pretty darned handy."


 

[ChadTower]

OK, OK. I get most of those abbreviations by now but what is FTW ?

It's usually for the win.  Sometimes ---fudgesicle--- the world.

I think that last point is especially true of black and white tubes... it's not going to be easy to find a new tube or whole monitor if I can't get this one back.

[ChadTower]

That thread lead me to this... which is very useful right now.


EDIT:  just dropped that into the Wiki.

[ChadTower]

Some indirect info about that in circuit cap checker...

[ChadTower]

Pins, connectors, and replacement for one of the filter caps ordered from Mouser.  I find it pretty annoying that Mouser won't give you an exact shipping charge figure when you submit the order.

Parts are in... the big cap I mistakenly ordered axial but I think I can make do with it.

[Level42]

Some indirect info about that in circuit cap checker...

Why can't all meters in life be like that ?

Good-Bad.

Nice.

[ChadTower]

A couple of progress pics for your entertainment.

The monitor out, with the chassis PCB off and the metal subhousing up to expose the sordid underbelly of Motorola monitors.




Out, from above with the chassis PCB missing.




The test harness I just made for using composite video and independent AC power outside the cab.  I need a better crimper.

[IG-88]

I read of heard somewhere that these old tubes sometimes lose their vacuume over time. Have you ever heard of that or is that just an old wise tale?

[ChadTower]

It can happen.  Doesn't have to, but yeah, it can happen.  Can happen with new ones, too. 

[ChadTower]

 

Still needs some work... it's very dim.  That may be the tube, I'll recap the rejuvinator and try that again.



Testing the control pots:

1)  contrast has some range
2)  brightness does nothing
3)  vertical hold has some range
4)  horizontal hold has some range
5)  width does nothing

That's not counting the pots right on the PCB.  I did tweak the vertical size to get the pic to fill the tube, so that is okay, though it's way open now.

And now that it has been running 20 minutes I can see retrace lines if I look closely...

[Level42]

 

Man is that a nostalgic look or what ? I'm old enough to remember that our first TV was black & white. The day we got our brand new color TV I will never forget

The lack of PCB's is scaring for me

[IG-88]

Hey! Good job! You're getting closer. When you are done you ought to put a old PC in the cab with a tuner card and use it to watch a bunch of old B&W John Wayne war flicks or similar. Just to make it a little more useful. 

[ChadTower]

Hey! Good job! You're getting closer. When you are done you ought to put a old PC in the cab with a tuner card and use it to watch a bunch of old B&W John Wayne war flicks or similar. Just to make it a little more useful. 

Heh.  If I can't get the boards working I may stick a 2600 emulator in there, actually.  These are in such nice shape, though, I'll be surprised if they're that far dead.

I was sitting here staring at the monitor a few minutes ago and came to a realization.  If this monitor is taking composite input... then the boards are obviously putting out composite... and thus I should be able to use any composite TV to test the boards with.  Given that I should be able to work on the boards independently of the monitor too.   

I'm considering trying to source a 19" b/w TV just in case I need to do a tube swap.  There is a recycling depot in my town that would probably let me take TVs for free but I'm not sure the guy who runs it would let me test them on the site. 

[ChadTower]

I'm trying to find individual replacements for all of the caps in that power supply multican... but they're all round values that don't seem to be available now.  I can't find a 400uF 125v cap anywhere.  Mouser had a couple listed but they were not only 8 weeks' lead time but they were $30!  What I'm trying to find now is either a cheap ESR meter, since I can't figure out how to read the ancient one I have (or tell if it still works), or some solid info on substituting cap values.  I know you can go up in voltage but I can't find anything about how far off in farads you can go.

[danny_galaga]

Hah, and they say we have a terrible "cuisine" 

you missed out the 'fruit' sprinkels. my favourite kind (",)



theres a dutch specialty shop not far from here (only one in brisbane in fact). i think ill go get me a packet this week...

[danny_galaga]

oh, and bloody good work you're doing there chad. i vaguely recall when i first joined that you hadn't even soldered anything before. now, THIS! hats off to you (",)

edit: and when you have it cleaned up, please submit a pic to klov as theirs is pretty ordinary to say the least...

[ChadTower]

oh, and bloody good work you're doing there chad. i vaguely recall when i first joined that you hadn't even soldered anything before. now, THIS! hats off to you (",)

edit: and when you have it cleaned up, please submit a pic to klov as theirs is pretty ordinary to say the least...

Thanks, bro.  When I first joined BYOAC I knew nothing about electronics beyond how to attach stuff to your TV.  Literally - just about nothing.  Years of studying on my own, and a buttload of advice from people here and on places like RGVAC... these resources and the people on them are amazing.

When I get this cleaned up I can submit pics, no problem.  Any suggestions as to what shots to get?

[danny_galaga]

anything would be better than what they have    but maybe a 3/4 shot or something of its best side, a good shot of the CP and maybe if you could make an actual screen shot (im guessing by actually taking a picture)

[ChadTower]

A really good CP shot wouldn't be hard... the art is in fantastic shape on this one.  You'll see when I get to that part just how nice the CP is on this one.  Nearly unmarked.

I'm looking at the woodgrain laminate on the sides now... it's quite nice but does have chips out along the edges in some places.  I'm on the fence about that.  I'm sure I could find a very similar laminate to replace it and make it minty... but this is the original laminate.  Maybe it will be an easier decision when I replace the beaten on T molding.

[Level42]

Has anyone ever seen their photo's actually added to KLOV they sent in ? I've mailed a number of pictures and they never show up.

[ChadTower]

When I first got the Tank II I tried to contact them about submitting better pictures... never got a response.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Chad Mate!!!  Re: your lack of an ESR Meter...... I think you might have missed my last post in your other thread.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=75988.msg789520#msg789520

  Well done on the re-cap. I suspect you may be right about the condition of that tube. If you're seeing retrace lines, then it's being over driven a bit. Turn the tube drive on the LOPT down until they more or less vanish when you're displaying a black screen.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[ChadTower]

I did miss that... I'll give it a shot at some point.  I have freeze spray on the shelf.

Thanks!

[ChadTower]

Ordered a set of replacement caps for the multican in in the power supply.  Bob Roberts helped me with a lot of advice on how to go about replacing that NLA part.  I ordered the parts from him, though I could have tossed them into the Mouser order I'm writing up, since he helped me out with no guarantee of an order.

His plan is to use four slightly higher capacitance caps, mounted to a perf board off to the side, with a harness run to where the original was.  This will be the first time I've done anything like that. 

[Level42]

I like this.....really old school.

[ChadTower]

I just hope I'm not doing all this for a monitor that isn't coming back to life.

[Level42]

I just hope I'm not doing all this for a monitor that isn't coming back to life.

That's the risk of this hobby.

So far I waisted an entire day on the WG4500 (re-capping etc) that was in my Galaxian, and don't get me started about the G07 that was in my Centipede. Everybody says it's a great monitor to repair, well, I think it was an ancient design when it was released....sorry if I hurt someone's feelings here.

Anyway, I got the Amplifone running and boy was it worth it......

The really bad thing is that B/W CRT's are as good as extinct here. You can still get security monitors in B/W but only small sizes.

[ChadTower]

I hear that on the CRT.  I've been putting out Freecycle feelers but so far have only come up with a 7" TV.  That isn't good enough.

Since it's just a composite connection, though... if worse comes to worst, I should be able to use a color TV with composite input, yes?  I'd have to redo all of the other stuff that comes in through the monitor harness (everything goes through it, sadly) for that route, though.

[Level42]

Yes. But a color TV displaying a BW picture is never the same as a real BW CRT.
A BW CRT is sharper to begin with. And the "color" of the pospor will never be the same. That is not even starting about convergence problems that can really screw a BW picture on a color CRT.....

Wish I could have some more encouraging words my friend....I really do :S

[ChadTower]

I'll just have to hope that I can get better results from the tube rejuvinator once I recap it.  The main discharge cap has to be 30+ years old now.

[ChadTower]

I'm trying to order up a cap kit for the game PCBs now... but the damn 8000uF caps I need are more than $17 each at Mouser!  Ack.

They are $37 each, min order of ten, at Digikey.   

[whammoed]

I'm trying to order up a cap kit for the game PCBs now... but the damn 8000uF caps I need are more than $17 each at Mouser!  Ack.

They are $37 each, min order of ten, at Digikey.   

Yikes.  Is this a game you plan on keeping in your collection?

[ChadTower]

Not sure yet, for now I'm restoring it because I promised Peale I would when he helped me get it.

I think I'm going to pass on replacing those caps until I have gone to a little effort to see how good they are.  I'll try Fozzy's trick on them.

[ChadTower]

Making the order... the web page didn't like my shipping instructions so I had to omit them:

Don't put luncheon meat in the box.  Or scorpions.  If you must put scorpions, may as well put the luncheon meat, so that the scorpions aren't starving and irritable when I open the box.

Sticklers.

[ChadTower]

Took the joysticks apart tonight and ran them through the dishwasher... got 90% of the dirt off.  The rest can probably stay as it's all in nonvisible places.  The handles are good and shiny again now.  These things are built like Tanks.  It was a ---smurfette--- to get them off the CP and taken apart. 

[Level42]

Pics !!

[ChadTower]

I'm going to post before and after pics of the CP, I think, but not pics of everything all disassembled and such.  The camera I'm using is 7.1mp.  Takes a bit of time to get the pics cropped, shrunken, resolution changed for web use... with the amount of time I have over the next couple of weeks, I can either make strong progress with key pics or make weak progress with great pics of it.

[Level42]

I'm going to post before and after pics of the CP, I think, but not pics of everything all disassembled and such.  The camera I'm using is 7.1mp.  Takes a bit of time to get the pics cropped, shrunken, resolution changed for web use... with the amount of time I have over the next couple of weeks, I can either make strong progress with key pics or make weak progress with great pics of it.

You need a Mac

[ChadTower]

A Mac wouldn't make that process any easier.  A 7.1mp photo is a 7.1mp photo.  Still have to crop and reduce for the web.

[whammoed]

A Mac wouldn't make that process any easier.  A 7.1mp photo is a 7.1mp photo.  Still have to crop and reduce for the web.

Don't know what kind of camera you have, but mine can easily be set to take other resolutions...like 640x480
I usually set it this way when taking pics to share here...saves time

[Level42]

And that's where you are wrong.

I put my memory card in my cardreader.
iPhoto starts and imports the pictures.
I give a name to group the pictures.
I select Webgalary and they're published on my .Mac
Now I just have to drag and drop the pictures from one Safari (browser) showing my webgalary to my BYOAC forum reply.

Ready. No cropping, no resizing, no resolution change.

Yes a Mac _does_ make the process easier

(B.t.w., the Getaway is in )

[ChadTower]

No control, no optimzation.  I come from a graphics background... I prefer to get the best results rather than the least amount of effort.  I could do a one click publish on a PC too but don't want that. 

Not cropping... who wants to see the whole wall when the subject is one part on a desktop?  What kind of a world is that?   

Getaway is a good game.  I love the steel motorized loop, though I wish it served some actual game purpose.

[Level42]

Are you saying my pictures look bad Chad ?
 
 

[ChadTower]

Dirty CP.  Actually pretty good for having been in storage for 15+ years.

[leapinlew]

Yes a Mac _does_ make the process easier

Geez... I put the memory card in, change the resolution on all my images to make them web ready and upload to BYOAC. Chad - here is the easiest/quickest tool to re-size your pictures for BYOAC. Highlight all your pics and do them all at once. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Grab the picture resizer.

Cropping is still cropping though... that takes a while. I just take properly sized pictures the first time. 

Projects looking good.

[ChadTower]

I take my web pics from the high res photos I take for reference purposes.  When I take something apart, I can't always put it back together that same day, so I use photos from all sorts of angles when I can't remember exactly how to get it back together.  Can't tell you how many times that has saved ---my bottom--- working on pins.  The ability to zoom clearly all the way in to the individual screws is very useful.

The reason it takes a while (and that's a relative "while") is that once you have the pic cropped to just the subject, the dimensions of the photo are now custom.  To get a good web resolution at that point it is best to manually decide how far to reduce size and quality in order to get it to an acceptable ~125k at the highest quality possible.  If you want to get a pair of good matching shots like the two CP shots above, from two different files, the only way to do that is hands on with an image editor.  Then you take those pics, upload them into the "NOT A PROJECT" thread, wait for the upload, grab the URL, come back here and use the img tags... I know I don't have to do all that but I like doing it except when time gets crunched and it starts affecting actual progress on the game.  I have been considering lately setting up a Photoshop batch macro since most of them end up roughly reduced to 35% size and about 70 quality rating in the end.

[danny_galaga]

just do what youve been doing. you dont have to submit the pics to a magazine, just give us the odd one like the CP. that will keep us happy and content (",)

[CheffoJeffo]

I just hope I'm not doing all this for a monitor that isn't coming back to life.

My Atari Football project is like that ... needs the trackballs rebuilt, PS rebuilt and I'm iffy about the board, but could get one from Mark Spaeth, but I KNOW the monitor is in need of repair and am not sure if I'll be able to repair ...

[RayB]

My Atari Football project is like that ... needs the trackballs rebuilt, PS rebuilt and I'm iffy about the board, but could get one from Mark Spaeth, but I KNOW the monitor is in need of repair and am not sure if I'll be able to repair ...

Do what I do.. pour fistfuls of money into fixing up cosmetics and other stuff, and you'll have yourself the nicest looking non-playable cocktail in town!

<insert photo of cocktail table with small stack of paper under bottom corner here>

[ChadTower]

My Atari Football project is like that ... needs the trackballs rebuilt, PS rebuilt and I'm iffy about the board, but could get one from Mark Spaeth, but I KNOW the monitor is in need of repair and am not sure if I'll be able to repair ...

Well, if I got this chassis working, you can definitely get yours working.  I'm not exactly Randy Fromm.    

The Mouser order came in last night, and I started working on recapping the tube rejuvinator, but then a family member showed up to visit so I had to stop.  Maybe tonight I can get that capped and give it another shot at the tube.

I figure that this cab could use any composite TV if necessary, even color.  That would require some rewiring, though, as it routes board power, audio and maybe even CP wiring through one connector that goes through the monitor chassis.  If I have to go that route it would be useful as a learning experience for me as wiring is one of my weaker skills - I work on existing games, I don't build new ones.

[paigeoliver]

This might sound silly, but I have owned a few black and white games and I always thought the ancient semi-wonky monitors they all had added a little character to them.

Too bad yours doesn't have a 23" monitor, those things are a dime a dozen it seems (all those Sprint 2's with burned up boards left a lot of the 23" monitors floating around). I think I still have a few good ones in my basement (I know I have six monitors down there, but I don't have any real games to use them in anymore).

[CheffoJeffo]

Too bad yours doesn't have a 23" monitor, those things are a dime a dozen it seems (all those Sprint 2's with burned up boards left a lot of the 23" monitors floating around). I think I still have a few good ones in my basement (I know I have six monitors down there, but I don't have any real games to use them in anymore).

* CheffoJeffo needs to schedule a roadtrip to grab up some 23" BW Atari monitors

[ChadTower]

This might sound silly, but I have owned a few black and white games and I always thought the ancient semi-wonky monitors they all had added a little character to them.

I agree... I don't care about the wicked screen burn.  The tube is way too dim to be useful, sadly.  That pic I took is under optimal conditions with the screen turned up really far.  It is misleading how dim the picture really was. 

Too bad yours doesn't have a 23" monitor, those things are a dime a dozen it seems (all those Sprint 2's with burned up boards left a lot of the 23" monitors floating around). I think I still have a few good ones in my basement (I know I have six monitors down there, but I don't have any real games to use them in anymore).

I thought about trying to put a 23" tube in there if I found one.  Tank II is a cabaret.  The inside is only 25".  I don't think I could physically fit a 23" tube.  I would definitely like to avoid going with another chassis, though.  The way this one routes everything else through the chassis connector means I'll have to reverse engineer and reroute everything else if I have to use a standard TV or something.

[ChadTower]

I finished recapping the rejuvinator... no real difference in results.  I double checked and I may have before been using the wrong socket for this tube.  I got the right one this time.  Now it passes G1 shorts but has terrible Emission results - a sign of a tube without much life left.  I tried rejuvination and it made no difference.

In adjusting it to get the best picture, I have noticed that the only adjustment pot that seems to get no response is Brightness.  I wonder if that is because there is nothing left or because the pot is bad... I'll have to look into that pot later.  At this point I'm frustrated enough with the damn monitor that I'm tempted to scrap it for now and see if I can get the boards working.

I think I'm going to spend some time tonight with Randy Fromm's monitor video as well.

[Fozzy The Bear]

At this point I'm frustrated enough with the damn monitor that I'm tempted to scrap it for now and see if I can get the boards working.

Chad, it's just occurred to me that you may not have as bad a monitor as you think.......

You've been driving it with a video signal that's designed for a TV set, or VCR or the output of a domestic DVD player yes??...

If that's the case, then part of your problem is an impedance missmatch between the signal you're putting in and the signal the monitor is expecting. The signal out of the game boards will be much higher and will drive it harder on the whites, giving you the image you're after (theoretically).

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[ChadTower]

That had occurred to me as a possibility but I didn't know where to go about looking for info on it.  Thanks for pointing it out.  Maybe I'll put it back in the game tomorrow and see what I can get firing up the boards.

[ChadTower]

Got the CP back together... pics coming, it's really clean.

I put the monitor back in and fired the game up... nothing.  Possibly some retrace lines on the monitor, hard to tell with all that burn.

I pulled the boards and noticed on the left board one of the edge contacts is burned pretty bad and has been bypassed with a jumper straight from the trace up past the connector and to the wire.  It looks like a ground contact.  The edge contact just to the right of that one isn't all that great either but it not bypassed.  These are the only two damaged ones I can see.  I followed the right trace and it leads down to a couple of diodes and a large resistor.  The back behind them is toast.  No burned traces, but they're raised a little, and has the usual black halo.  Pics coming of that too.  I'll pull those components and test them to see if that is black from a current failure or from the previous one that looks like it was half-ass repaired.

What's the best way to restore a burned edge contact pad?  I haven't done that yet.  I had to cut the jumper to pull the board so clearly that solution isn't good.

[ChadTower]

BTW, I'd like to meet the people who thought this soldered on paper interconnect ribbon cables were a good idea and kick them until we all cry.

[Fozzy The Bear]

BTW, I'd like to meet the people who thought this soldered on paper interconnect ribbon cables were a good idea and kick them until we all cry.

Yeah!! I took a "Gunsmoke" cab apart once that had those.... They're a devil to keep in one piece. You may find that the failure to fire up is a result of those damned inventions of Beelzebub. I hate them too.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[ChadTower]

These ones eyeball pretty well, so hopefully with careful handling I can leave them alone.  If not all hell may break loose.  Or I'll just have someone else fix it.   

Ordered a couple of edge rebuild kits.  Should only need one but I always order a spare unless the parts are expensive.

[paigeoliver]

I checked my basement, it looks like I have 5 19" color monitors and no black and white ones. I guess I sold or gave them all away.

Too bad yours doesn't have a 23" monitor, those things are a dime a dozen it seems (all those Sprint 2's with burned up boards left a lot of the 23" monitors floating around). I think I still have a few good ones in my basement (I know I have six monitors down there, but I don't have any real games to use them in anymore).

* CheffoJeffo needs to schedule a roadtrip to grab up some 23" BW Atari monitors

[Level42]

We apologize for any inconvenience on the delay while we are waiting for Chad to crop and upload his pictures....


 

[CheffoJeffo]

I checked my basement, it looks like I have 5 19" color monitors and no black and white ones. I guess I sold or gave them all away.

Too bad yours doesn't have a 23" monitor, those things are a dime a dozen it seems (all those Sprint 2's with burned up boards left a lot of the 23" monitors floating around). I think I still have a few good ones in my basement (I know I have six monitors down there, but I don't have any real games to use them in anymore).

* CheffoJeffo needs to schedule a roadtrip to grab up some 23" BW Atari monitors

* CheffoJeffo resigns himself to the fact that he has to fix his own damned 23" Atari BW monitor

[ChadTower]

I haven't even loaded the pics from the camera yet. 

I just checked those two HV diodes in the burnt section... both seem at least mostly okay.  Junction drops are 0.49v and 0.51v, one way.  I'm not sure if that is on the low end of acceptable for MR501s... any opinions?

EDIT:  ooh, the big resistor between what appears to be a VR (a transistor looking thing with a heat sink) and the diodes reads as 0.3ohms.  We may have a winner.

Now to just try and figure out what it should be.

Gah, how do I tell the difference between silver and grey?  I mean, it's only 0.01 and 100,000,000 respectively.   

If I'm reading it right, it is either 2200 megohms or 0.22ohms... and it actually reads 0.3ohms.  Why the eff would it be so big if it's only 0.22ohms?  Voltage level?

[Level42]

Because of the low resistance, there's probably a good deal of current running through it. To handle this, the resistor needs to be big(ger). The more Watts (power) a resistor can/has to handle, the bigger it gets.

U=IxR (Or as US people say: V=IxR)

By the way, silver is NOT used to code the resistance but the tolerance.

Silver is a certain percentage and gold is a certain percentage, I don't remember what the exact percentages are.
It is the tolerance in resistance level. A resistor is never exactly the given value, but around it. The tolerance band indicates how big or small the difference can be.

And uhmmm.... a 2200 megaohm resistor would be about the same as an open.....

[ChadTower]

There are two silver bands... fourth one is tolerance.  The third band is also silver.  The multiplier.

I'm going to try to find some test points to ensure the voltages are proper when running, but if I can't, I'm almost to the point where I'm going to pack it in and give it to a pro.  I'd like this game to be running soon.  I'm not sure where I'll put it, though.  Maybe up in my son's room since it is so short (they have slanted ceilings).

[ChadTower]

A very interesting ebay auction in terms of debugging this game.

I haven't been able to find mention of this document anywhere. 

The handbook is basically a course in electronic circuits and monitors in the pong era.  It cover b&w monitors, and ttl circuits.  It's about 100 pages and has a motorola xm-501 monitor schematic for circuit analysis.  Must have come from some operator training seminar.

[CheffoJeffo]

I can find mentions of it, but no scans.

Interesting ... wonder how much more info it contains than, say, The Book ?

[ChadTower]

I can find mentions of it, but no scans.

Interesting ... wonder how much more info it contains than, say, The Book ?

No way of knowing without buying it.  The fact that it uses my exact monitor as its circuit analysis example is worth money to me in and of itself.  It wouldn't bother me to scan it for ionpool.

[Level42]

Uhm....

http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Atari_Kee/Tank_II/Tank_II_TM-049.pdf

[ChadTower]

Thanks... that showed real promise at first, but after the first 5 or so pages, everything in that manual is in the standard manual too.     It fully lays out the TTL schematics but I have no idea how to go about troubleshooting any of it beyond the way I'd troubleshoot a more modern board.  Of course, I'm still learning that too.

[Level42]

Same here....didn't know what you had already of course....
If you got questions about the TTL stuff let me know. I don't know everything, and I can only understand partly how all these things work together, but I can always give it a shot.

Are you also looking for the monitor manual ?

[ChadTower]

I'll keep that offer in mind, thanks.  I need all the help I can get.

I do have the monitor manual.  It amazes me how much more detailed the old manuals are than modern manuals.  I wouldn't have been able to get the cap job finished without the schematic in the manual.

[Fozzy The Bear]

It amazes me how much more detailed the old manuals are than modern manuals.  I wouldn't have been able to get the cap job finished without the schematic in the manual.

That's because nobody bothers to repair stuff any more. When it breaks they just chuck it out and get another one.

It's even the same in the arcades now.... Most new machines are coming in with domestic monitors and TV's in them and in most cases there's no way to put the LCD ones right when they do break. In the UK "Lets Go Jungle" is fitted with a 65" Sony Bravia projector TV set!!! Time Crisis 4 is fitted with really crappy domestic Thompson 4:3 projectors, Go Figure!

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Level42]

Very true. Atari's documentation is awesome, especially around the classics period.
The Williams manual I got about the Getaway pinball is amazing too. Imagine just how many hours were put in writing and drawing those manuals.

I remember the time that Philips put a schematic (not a complete service manual, but still) with every device they sold.....imagine if they would do that now. You're lucky if you don't have to download a user manual !

[ChadTower]

Over the past week or so I made two orders from Bob Roberts.  I ordered the replacement B+ caps and I figured he cross shipped them.  I sent in payment.  Before the B+ caps came to me I ordered a couple of PCB edge repair kits.  Another shipment, another $7.  Fair enough.

Bob didn't cross ship the first package for some reason.  He waited for the payment to come in and then did cross ship the second order.  For some reason he shipped them in two separate boxes - one with four caps in it, the other with 2 edge repair kits in it.  Both were small boxes marked about $4.50.  I paid $14 to ship $9 actual cost of what in this instance was a combined couple of ounces of material and could have been about $4 cost.

That is annoying enough.  Want to know what Bob used as packing material?  Moon Pies.  ---smurfing--- Moon Pies.  There were more pies in each package than there were parts.  So I paid $14 to ship $4-5 shipping cost of parts and 5x that weight in ---goshdarn--- Moon Pies.

Bob Roberts is losing his mind.

[Level42]

Yeah, Bob (or one of his workers) also made a mistake with my G07 cap-kit. It was corrected by Bob, but maybe.....ehm, he's getting old ?

Hey Chad, have a look at this thread on KLOV forum:
http://forums.webmagic.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=2&Number=665749&Main=352030#Post665749

There's a guy named "Questor" who has a fully working Tank II. Maybe he can help a bit ?

[ChadTower]

Yeah, Bob (or one of his workers) also made a mistake with my G07 cap-kit. It was corrected by Bob, but maybe.....ehm, he's getting old ?

When I reported the errors in the cap kit for this game he told me it wasn't possible.  I may be done ordering from him entirely.

[Xiaou2]

 Moon Pies?   Are those the chocolate covered marshmallow gram-cracker
delicacies?   Yummy Yummy for my Tummy!   

 I wish everyone would use moon pies as packing material   lol

[danny_galaga]

Because of the low resistance, there's probably a good deal of current running through it. To handle this, the resistor needs to be big(ger). The more Watts (power) a resistor can/has to handle, the bigger it gets.

U=IxR (Or as US people say: V=IxR)

By the way, silver is NOT used to code the resistance but the tolerance.

Silver is a certain percentage and gold is a certain percentage, I don't remember what the exact percentages are.
It is the tolerance in resistance level. A resistor is never exactly the given value, but around it. The tolerance band indicates how big or small the difference can be.

And uhmmm.... a 2200 megaohm resistor would be about the same as an open.....

i thikn silver is 10% tolerance and gold is 5%...

[Level42]

Yeah, Bob (or one of his workers) also made a mistake with my G07 cap-kit. It was corrected by Bob, but maybe.....ehm, he's getting old ?

When I reported the errors in the cap kit for this game he told me it wasn't possible.  I may be done ordering from him entirely.

Well....first I ordered some Atari PSU rebuild kits, the one's that come with the fuses. I noticed that not all the required value fuses were in there. I mailed him about it and got about the same stubborn reply. So I replied and explained what is needed in values by an Atari PSU and what was in the bags. Then he explained that the included fuse set was NOT specifically aimed at the Atari PSU but it was a "general" set of fuses, or something like that.

I thought it was stupid, but after reading again on his site, he told like it was.

Next I had an order with the G07 cab kit, amongst other stuff. I got two wrong voltage caps. I mailed him about it and he was a lot less stubborn and asked me to send a picture of them, which I did. I got back a _very_ long e-mail explaining about his handling process (which sounded pretty good) and that no-one there could understand how this mistake had been made. Believe it or not, he also told me that he had watched the video tape to see where it could have gone wrong. So, he's apparently video taping the handling process !!! I've seen things like this at companies like DHL etc. but that amazed me for a small business like that.

Anyway no-one there could explain what had happened and he was going over it in his sleep.....

Anyway, he sent me the two correct value caps, so I'm still good with Bob.
He even cross-shipped the order to me, as soon he learned that Shilmover forwarded the money for me. Bob's a good guy, he's just a bit weird maybe Eaten too many moon-pie's ? (never had those, I wouldn't mind give it a try )

It's not like we have a hundred places to get our materials from...

[ChadTower]

 Moon Pies?   Are those the chocolate covered marshmallow gram-cracker
delicacies?   Yummy Yummy for my Tummy!   

Yeah, but I got mostly banana, not chocolate.   

I didn't actually ask Bob to replace any of the caps in my cap kit.  I ordered it like three years ago and put it in the cab for when I fixed it.  I just mentioned it in an email to him and asked him if they were reasonable sub values.  He told me they weren't, but then got mad that I was even asking, seeing as how it's not possible.  Not like I was looking at the list and at the caps seeing they were half the required voltage or anything.

Now that I'm getting decent at identifying parts and finding places to order I see that there isn't anything I have ordered from Bob that I can't get elsewhere. 

[IG-88]

Ok, I realize I'm a bit naive here but are you serious! Moonpies! WTF! Why in the hell would he do that?

I actually had someone ship me a mobo in REAL popcorn once. And I thought that was weird

[ChadTower]

That's a bit of the schematic for the edge connector of board 1.  I checked the voltages on pins 2-5 and found:

2 & 3:  7.3v

4 & 5:  14.8v

I assume 7.3v in is good enough but 14.8?  Probably way too high, yes?

I also used the edge connector repair kit Bob sent... went very well, looks good.  Busted out the dremel in order to put key slots in the fingerboard.  Pics will be coming when I get the chance.

[Fozzy The Bear]

I assume 7.3v in is good enough but 14.8?  Probably way too high, yes?

No it's probably fine..... Most PSU's exhibit over volts, when they're under a no load condition. This is especially true of older designs that don't have really good regulation. I assume it's supposed to be 6V and 12V.  You could design a small regulator board to clean it up a bit if it bothers you.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[ChadTower]

No it's probably fine..... Most PSU's exhibit over volts, when they're under a no load condition.

Why would it be a no load condition?  This is with board and monitor in the cab.

There are a couple of other voltages I didn't check... I'll look at those soon.

[ChadTower]

Hrm... I found a loose wire, end exposed, hanging out in the harness.  I am having trouble tracing where it should go without undoing all of the cable ties.

I went to check to see if it should be on the connector and discovered something a bit odd, to me at least.

On board 1, there are no wires connected to the pin for 10 (5v) or 15 (-12v).  I don't see any lines coming off of those contacts in the diagram, either.  Anyone know what gives with that?  The harness for board 2 looks like I would expect.

[ChadTower]

Hrm... I found a loose wire, end exposed, hanging out in the harness.  I am having trouble tracing where it should go without undoing all of the cable ties.

Found it... it traces back to the ANT (pin 10) in the board 1 harness.  Did have to undo a couple of ties.

What is ANT?     It just ends in the diagram.  Could that be an implicit tie to ground?

[Level42]

Antenna ?

About the voltages: I take it you measured between pin 1 (Gnd) and all the other pins ?

[ChadTower]

Antenna ?

That's all I can think of too.  Why would it have an antenna without a tuner?  And what of it just ending in the diagram?

About the voltages: I take it you measured between pin 1 (Gnd) and all the other pins ?

Yep. 

[ChadTower]

Damn.  Thought I had something here.

[ChadTower]

Answered.

1.8d Qualified Personal PCB Adjustments

Antenna Wire: Trimming this wire adjusts the Sensitivity of the static
discharge system. Please be aware that the adjustment will depend to a
certain degree upon the environment in which the Machine is located.
Trimming a bit off the wire will decrease the sensitivity of the discharge
system while adding a length of wire will increase the sensitivity of the
circuit. Adding is indicated if players are able to obtain free games by
introducing static discharges. Trimming is indicated only if the machine
disables game credit during the game.

[shardian]

Answered.

1.8d Qualified Personal PCB Adjustments

Antenna Wire: Trimming this wire adjusts the Sensitivity of the static
discharge system. Please be aware that the adjustment will depend to a
certain degree upon the environment in which the Machine is located.
Trimming a bit off the wire will decrease the sensitivity of the discharge
system while adding a length of wire will increase the sensitivity of the
circuit. Adding is indicated if players are able to obtain free games by
introducing static discharges. Trimming is indicated only if the machine
disables game credit during the game.

Wow, those EE's back in the day were super clever and inventive weren't they? I wish I could've been an Engineer back in the 60's/70's.

[ChadTower]

I bet stuff like this is why they stopped routing power/controls/data through the monitor chassis.

I missed the end of that Atari doc auction.  Dammit.  I sent the winner an email offering to buy a copy off of him.  If I get it I want to scan it for the public domain.

[Level42]

Answered.

1.8d Qualified Personal PCB Adjustments

Antenna Wire: Trimming this wire adjusts the Sensitivity of the static
discharge system. Please be aware that the adjustment will depend to a
certain degree upon the environment in which the Machine is located.
Trimming a bit off the wire will decrease the sensitivity of the discharge
system while adding a length of wire will increase the sensitivity of the
circuit. Adding is indicated if players are able to obtain free games by
introducing static discharges. Trimming is indicated only if the machine
disables game credit during the game.

Mmm, I vividly remember kids using those piezo gas-lighters, the one's that spark, to credit games.
This was at a holiday park where they had a little "arcade" that was completely unattended.

One of them comes up to me and says, you wanna play that game ? I say, yeah sure, so he holds that piezo thing to the coin-door (they had bend-out the pin that releases the spark) and fired away.
There I was with like 83 credits on Frogger This was in the 80's and the games were from the 80-84 era...

The trick worked on some games, but not all.

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME WITH YOUR CLASSIC CABS !!!!

[ChadTower]

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME WITH YOUR CLASSIC CABS !!!!

You know better than that.  You know as soon as this thing is working I'm going to try it.

[Level42]

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME WITH YOUR CLASSIC CABS !!!!

You know better than that.  You know as soon as this thing is working I'm going to try it.

Yeah, I know, because you have to try it to see if you have to trim or extend the antenna 

[ChadTower]

Okay... more voltages:

pin 10:  4.7v
pin 15: -10.6v

Both too low, yes?

[ChadTower]

Monitor 73v was 72.6.  Measured this by checking pin 32 (73v) vs pin 14 (chassis ground).  Tweaked the 73v control pot up to 73.1v.

Okay, more voltages, from the schematic of the chassis pinouts:


Pin 28 should be +550v is +525v
Pin 22 should be +73v   is +73.1v
Pin 9   should be +6.3v  is nearly zero
Pin 7   should be +30v   is +28.56v
Pin 4   should be +550v is +525v
Pin 3   should be +150v is +142.9v
Pin 2   should be +73v   is +73.1v

Clearly I need to be looking at what feeds pin 9.


EDIT:  found the 5v driver transistor... it's q19 on the little audio plugin board.  It has a resistor between B and C that is not in the schematic and the telltale flux of some tech's fingerprints.   

[ChadTower]

Tried to bust out the in circuit transistor checker but I have no idea how to read the results.  It beeped a lot.   

[MaximRecoil]

Over the past week or so I made two orders from Bob Roberts.  I ordered the replacement B+ caps and I figured he cross shipped them.  I sent in payment.  Before the B+ caps came to me I ordered a couple of PCB edge repair kits.  Another shipment, another $7.  Fair enough.

Bob didn't cross ship the first package for some reason.  He waited for the payment to come in and then did cross ship the second order.  For some reason he shipped them in two separate boxes - one with four caps in it, the other with 2 edge repair kits in it.  Both were small boxes marked about $4.50.  I paid $14 to ship $9 actual cost of what in this instance was a combined couple of ounces of material and could have been about $4 cost.

That is annoying enough.  Want to know what Bob used as packing material?  Moon Pies.  ---smurfing--- Moon Pies.  There were more pies in each package than there were parts.  So I paid $14 to ship $4-5 shipping cost of parts and 5x that weight in ---goshdarn--- Moon Pies.

Bob Roberts is losing his mind.

You would have paid the same $14 without the moon pies. $7 shipping on each order is the standard (and minimum) rate that he charges. Your moon pies were free. If you had ordered everything at once in the first place it would have only been $7 shipping, and you probably still would have gotten the moon pies to boot.

[Level42]

That pin 9 voltage is a problem. I wouldn't worry much about all the others.

Since you don't know how to handle it, send that transistor tester to me. 


What value resistor is it (remove one leg and the measure the resistance in Ohms setting on your DVM )

[ChadTower]

You would have paid the same $14 without the moon pies. $7 shipping on each order is the standard (and minimum) rate that he charges. Your moon pies were free. If you had ordered everything at once in the first place it would have only been $7 shipping, and you probably still would have gotten the moon pies to boot.

The point is that he shipped them at the same time so he could have shipped them in the same box.  That and the fact that both boxes said $4.50 on them.

[ChadTower]

Found the tester manual... it's a BK520 Transistor Tester.  Found it attached in a thread on an audio forum.  I tried to attach it here for the next guy that Googles it but the PDF is higher than the max attachment size here.

EDIT:  this thing is cool.  Hook up the three clip leads to the transistor in circuit any way you want - then just move the knob through the settings.  If it's good it will beep on one of them and tell you if it's PNP or NPN.  You don't have to know which leads are which.  If it never beeps, take it out of circuit, and test again with deeper tests.  It checks diodes too, of course.  I took a peek on Ebay and this unit sells for about $35 before shipping.  Anyone who works with a lot of transistors (like on a pin driver board) should absolutely have one of these.

[MaximRecoil]

You would have paid the same $14 without the moon pies. $7 shipping on each order is the standard (and minimum) rate that he charges. Your moon pies were free. If you had ordered everything at once in the first place it would have only been $7 shipping, and you probably still would have gotten the moon pies to boot.

The point is that he shipped them at the same time so he could have shipped them in the same box.  That and the fact that both boxes said $4.50 on them.

You need to read this page thoroughly - http://therealbobroberts.net/ordering.html

And I would imagine that he already had your first order boxed up and ready to ship, if not out the door already. Bob seems pretty set in his ways and he easily deflected that monkey wrench that you tried to throw into his works. Two orders = two shipping costs. It's pretty simple.

[ChadTower]

You need to read this page thoroughly - http://therealbobroberts.net/ordering.html

Gee, it's not like I actually talked to *him* about it or anything.  You'd know that, though, having been involved.

Oh wait.

[MaximRecoil]

You need to read this page thoroughly - http://therealbobroberts.net/ordering.html

Gee, it's not like I actually talked to *him* about it or anything.  You'd know that, though, having been involved.

Oh wait.

What does talking to him about it have to do with anything? Did he tell you he would combine your two separate orders into one package/shipping cost? Did he tell you that he would [inexplicably] charge you less than his standard/minimum shipping rate of $7 per order (up to 1 lb.) that he charges everyone else? If not, then your talking to him is irrelevant.

You didn't get treated any different than anyone else, and the way he does things is made clear on his Ordering FAQ page.

[CheffoJeffo]

Oi, Maxim - loathe as I am to get between you and Chad ...

If I promise to lay off of Nintendo sticks (and I hope you noticed that I have), will you stop cluttering up interesting (do what you will with the uninteresting ones) project threads with pedantic arguments ?

Please ?

EDIT: And, yes, chad shouldn't ---smurfette--- about being charged basic shipping on each order he made.

[shardian]

How many Moon Pies are we talking about here? You may have actually made out on the deal.

[MaximRecoil]

Oi, Maxim - loathe as I am to get between you and Chad ...

If I promise to lay off of Nintendo sticks (and I hope you noticed that I have), will you stop cluttering up interesting (do what you will with the uninteresting ones) project threads with pedantic arguments ?

Please ?

EDIT: And, yes, chad shouldn't ---smurf--- about being charged basic shipping on each order he made.

Carry on.

I think it is great that Chad is restoring or refurbishing this machine.

However, Bob Roberts is definitely one of the "good guys" and has been since before most of us were even in this hobby.

[ChadTower]

If it were just this one instance, I wouldn't really care.  The cap kit for this game came with a good number of the caps wrong - half the required voltage.  He flat out told me it wasn't possible and stopped one step short of calling me a liar despite the fact that I wasn't asking for replacements.  I was asking for advice on whether or not the incorrect caps he gave me may actually work in the circuit.

I'm not even the only person in this thread who has had that problem with him and there's only like five of us here.

[ChadTower]

I'm trying to work out exactly what path to use in diagnosing the missing 6.3v on pin 9 in the monitor chassis.  I see 6.3v should be coming right off the transformer.  The immediate question, and one I can't just eyeball from where I'm sitting, is which one?  The iso on the chassis or the cabinet main?




Placeholder post for the time being... will be using this photo as reference.

[ChadTower]

Hey.  Just found the Motorola XM Series Technical Repair Manual.   

[ChadTower]

Just musing around the diagrams a bit...

The missing 6.3v is on pin 9 on the chassis.




R1 is just next to pin 9 in the image above.

Here is R1 in the schematic.



I probably replaced C1.  I'll verify that the polarity is correct. 
It appears to be straight from P1-1, which is pin 1 in the main chassis connector.  P1-1, if you reference the wiring diagram above, comes from edge pin 21 on game PCB2.  Pin 21 is video - pin 22 is video ground.

When I get home I'll pop the leads onto pins 21 and 22 on PCB2 to see if there is any video signal coming off the boards.  Any idea on what range I would reasonably expect to see?

[ChadTower]

Bah... what is that combo of black circle and white circle between P1-1 and R1 in the schematic?  Is that pin 8?

If it is, I need to go back towards the drawing board a bit.

Yep, found pin 9, straight off the transformer and labeled as 6.3v.  Looks like it makes a whole lot more sense.  Question:  I don't see a BR there like I do on the other transformer outputs.  Does this mean I would expect this to be 6.3v AC?

[Level42]

Looks like it. 6,3 V is a common used voltage for the heater in the CRT. If it's really low this could explain the dim picture.

[ChadTower]

Looks like it. 6,3 V is a common used voltage for the heater in the CRT. If it's really low this could explain the dim picture.

It could also be explained by me measuring it as DC.  I'll recheck that when I get home. 

BTW, good call.  Looking at the "back of the board" diagram, pin 9 is sitting right next to "heater CRT pin 8".

[ChadTower]

Okay, with that to check, on to looking into why 5v logic is low.  Found this in the repair manual I linked a couple of hours ago.  Clipped together from a couple of sections.  5v and 12v do indeed get powered off the monitor.  Now to find R4.

[ChadTower]

EDIT:  found the 5v driver transistor... it's q19 on the little audio plugin board.  It has a resistor between B and C that is not in the schematic and the telltale flux of some tech's fingerprints.   

That resistor... I wonder... could that be a factory mod to regulate the 5v output?  The service manual for the monitor seems to imply that it should be done after the load is placed on the 5v supply.  If Kee was building a bunch of these they may have decided a static resistor is cheaper than a potentiometer someplace...  and of course, now that the stuff is 30 years old, there is enough leakage that on a later game we'd be turning the power supply up in order to get 5V into the game boards.

Or does that sound like a half assed guess?

[Level42]

Uhm...why not use a switching power supply to hook up the +5V and +12v for the moment ? It's just to power the game PCB's right ?

Anduhm, yes measuring any AC voltage in DC setting will give you around 0 (even mains voltages )

I get a feeling we're trying to fix two (or more) things at a time...

Somewhere I lost you...

[ChadTower]

Uhm...why not use a switching power supply to hook up the +5V and +12v for the moment ? It's just to power the game PCB's right ?

It's not a bad idea.  I might have to figure out how to do that.

I get a feeling we're trying to fix two (or more) things at a time...

Yep.

[ChadTower]

6.74vAC present.  I was chasing a wild goose on that one.   

[Level42]

6.74vAC present.  I was chasing a wild goose on that one.   

Glad to be of help...

[ChadTower]

On the positive side, a year ago I didn't know the difference between AC and DC.  Yesterday I was able to look at the schematic, recognize a design element grouping, interpret what it likely meant, and make adjustments in my plan based on that.  That's a pretty big leap from where I was not too long ago.

[Level42]

I know and I tell you that's some accomplishment ! Just trying to help you learn even more

[ChadTower]

I know and I tell you that's some accomplishment ! Just trying to help you learn even more

Did I say something that came across badly?  I didn't mean to if I did - and apologize if that is the case. 

I'm trying to decide what to do about the low 5v.  In a later game I would adjust the power supply upwards a little bit, right?  I don't have that direct option here.  Options I do think I have:

• Take that "hacked in" resistor off of the 5v driver and see what difference that makes, after finding its value and if it is small enough to not be a dangerous tactic.
  
• Find R4 and swap in a lower value resistor.
• Try bridging in caps for some of the big big caps on the monitor frame (I think they're power supply filters).  I do have the replacements I got from Moonpie Bob.
  

Or there is another thought.  If you look at that wiring diagram, there is no 5v input to the game PCBs.  PCB1 is taking in 6.3v on contacts 2, 3, 4, and 5.  I may be better suited to figure out where exactly that 5v is supposed to be coming from before I go shotgunning actual changes.  That will be pushing my schematic reading skills at this point.

[Level42]

Not at all, Chad, not at all ! If I made you think that, _I_ am sorry

Sometimes this text-only communication is just to limited...

OK, so 6,3VAC is OK.

What is the problem with the monitor itself right now ? I mean, apart from the supply voltages to the PCB. I personaly would really use a seperate switcher on this one. I normaly am all for restoring the original power supplies, and I still think a conventional PSU will last longer than a switcher, but in this case....
It would save you a lot of worries about getting these voltages OK.

From that clip of the manual, I would think that R4 is a potmeter, not a fixed resistor......because they say it's adjustable....

[ChadTower]

What is the problem with the monitor itself right now ?

I am assuming it is not getting valid signal from the game board.  It does display the VCR signal, albeit dimly, so I know it mostly works.  I figure the game board should be showing up just as dimly.  Instead I get a blank screen full of what are probably horizontal retrace lines from the game boards.

From that clip of the manual, I would think that R4 is a potmeter, not a fixed resistor......because they say it's adjustable....

That would make sense, but if R4 is actually on the power/audio daughterboard, then it's not a pot.  There are no pots on the daughterboard.  I'll take a look when I get home - they may mean the R4 that is on the main chassis PCB.  If that is a pot we're good - but I don't remember a +5v control pot on the main PCB.  This is a case of my not completely understanding the schematic.  In one place the +5v circuit is laid out entirely - no marking for crossing PCBs - but in reality most of the parts shown cannot be on that daughterboard.  It is too small.

I would have to figure out how to use a switcher to power the game board.  It's a decent idea just to further testing along if for nothing else.  I'm sure I have one around someplace.

[Level42]

That Service Manual PDF shows R4 to be in the contrast circuit.... Could it be they used the same part numbering on different PCB's on that monitor ? Would be very stupid, but possible.

R5 is definitly a potmeter on that part of schematics....

This has to be asked: do you have a working TV around that has a composite input ? (Those yellow RCA female plugs) ?

I suggest using that for testing the PCB. Just hook up the video output to the center of the RCA, ground to the shield.

[ChadTower]

That Service Manual PDF shows R4 to be in the contrast circuit.... Could it be they used the same part numbering on different PCB's on that monitor ? Would be very stupid, but possible.

I don't think they did.  There really isn't very much on that daughterboard.  That circuit has to be crossing PCBs.

This has to be asked: do you have a working TV around that has a composite input ? (Those yellow RCA female plugs) ?

I suggest using that for testing the PCB. Just hook up the video output to the center of the RCA, ground to the shield.

I have a few things I could use for that.  My workbench has a VCR and Commodore monitor on it - that's what I used to test input to the monitor.  I agree it's time to try and get known good voltages into the game PCB and see what comes out of it on a known good monitor.  I assume to do that I'll need 4 6.3vAC lines into edge contacts 2, 3, 4, and 5 on PCB1.  Then I mock up a video cable similar to the one I made for VCR->monitor testing but in reverse.  I think I can accomplish that using the spare eyelet connector I bought from Bob and maybe some clip leads for video.


EDIT:  wait.  That doesn't sound right.  I measured the 6.3vAC inputs on those pins - they are all good.  If I'm already getting good inputs to the boards, but +5v is still low, then there has to be a problem in the board someplace, probably in the 6.3vAC to 5vDC conversion.  I can still mock up a cable to test output with the existing power supply but as I get deeper, if there is an actual link between that 5v supply on the monitor and 5v in the game board, I'm not seeing where it gets in.  The only voltage inputs on the game PCB are on PCB1 in those four 6.3vAC lines.

[Level42]

Mmmmm, there could be one problem with this. The PCB is probably outputting TTL levels (5V). A TV would like it to be a little lower. You can use a series resistor to lower it. I thinkg around 500 Ohms should do the trick enough....

[Level42]

Let me check the Tank PCB schematics...

[ChadTower]

Mmmmm, there could be one problem with this. The PCB is probably outputting TTL levels (5V). A TV would like it to be a little lower. You can use a series resistor to lower it. I thinkg around 500 Ohms should do the trick enough....

Hrm.  I hate to add a variable here... but my Commodore monitor has a TTL input on the back.

[Level42]

That's solved then

Is it an RGB input ? If so, connect the video to one of the colors. Green comes into mind as a nice retro-looking color

[Level42]

O wait, the sync is on that composite video signal......can't use RGB input with that .....

[ChadTower]

That's solved then

Is it an RGB input ? If so, connect the video to one of the colors. Green comes into mind as a nice retro-looking color

I'm not sure - I've never used it.

Wait - if the board is putting out TTL levels - and TTL levels are higher than composite levels - and I was testing with composite output - then the monitor would be expecting higher levels than I was testing with - meaning the monitor could be better than I think?

Erg.  I'm all over the place now.  I'm heading out - it is snowing like a mofo here and the roads are getting really bad.  I should have time this weekend to try a couple of things and make more rambling posts.

[Level42]

Yes of course. Someone mentioned that in this thread already !!!

[Level42]

I'm out on a roadtrip to Belgium tomorrow to see if I can fix two Star Wars cabs.
One is an upright that is "poorly" working, the other a dead cockpit !

[Level42]

I took a first look at the Tank II Schematics and it looks to me like the PCB is creating the DC voltages itself.

There's a transformer on the bottom of the cab. Since the Motorola doesn't need an isolation transformer, why would there be that 2nd one ?

I think the power supply to the PCB's are not coming from the monitor.....

Or am I missing something obvious ?

[ChadTower]

Yes of course. Someone mentioned that in this thread already !!!

Yeah.  I didn't understand it then, though.

The motorola doesn't need an ISO because it has one of it's own, my guess.  It does "need one" because it "comes with one".

That's quite a road trip.  Good luck!  Fill us in on how it goes.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Wait - if the board is putting out TTL levels - and TTL levels are higher than composite levels - and I was testing with composite output - then the monitor would be expecting higher levels than I was testing with - meaning the monitor could be better than I think?

Isn't that what I said to you a couple of pages back???

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[ChadTower]

Isn't that what I said to you a couple of pages back???

You spoke of impedance... which seems correct but I didn't understand enough to know what it meant yet.  What you just witnessed was me connecting the dots.

I have just about every game console that has been released in North America.  Any recommendations as to one of them from which I can snag a similar TTL signal to feed to this monitor?  Seems to me some of the earlier ones may have TTL inside before being modulated to television levels.  Maybe the Channel F or an old Pong clone?  The Odyssey 2, perhaps?

[Fozzy The Bear]

Isn't that what I said to you a couple of pages back???

You spoke of impedance... which seems correct but I didn't understand enough to know what it meant yet.  What you just witnessed was me connecting the dots.

Yeah! I gues I wasn't clear enough about it..... Sorry!! I assumed too much.

I think I also said "The signal out of the game boards will be much higher and will drive it harder on the whites, giving you the image you're after (theoretically)."

But never mind! you got it now.... So at least you can concentrate on the game boards now and assume that the monitor is working. Otherwise, if you have something like a Comodore64, BBC Micro, Dragon32, or other computer from that period, most of them had a monitor output that was TTL you could attach one of those and see what you get. The games consoles you mention were all designed to connect to a TV not a monitor, so they will be unlikely to be putting a TTL signal out.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I figured as much.  I just gave away all of my old computers, too.  A stack of TI99s and several Atari 8 bits.  Dammit.

I just did some digging and through various places found that the TTL video levels would be expected to be between 0v and 5v.   Composite video, on the other hand,   ranges approximately 714 mV and the sync pulse range approximately -286 mV.  So I definitely learned something useful today, even if you told me last week.   

[ChadTower]

I pulled one end of one of the 8000mfd caps and measured it with the DMM.  It actually registers as 0mfd.  This thing must be deader than a can of Spam.  I was going to try to avoid replacing them, since I can't find 8000mfd caps for less than like $15 a pop, but I may have to replace them.

[IG-88]

Just curious Chad, I've been following this since you started, (most has been over my head) but is there going to be a point where you say the heck with it and give up or are you on a "mission" now to get it fully operational again? I hope the latter. I have actually learned a few things and I've kinda grown to like this project so I hope you stick it out. If anything your tenacity has been impressive.   

[ChadTower]

Heh.  Thanks.  If I do "give up" it will be in the form of handing the montor and game boards over to a friend of mine and having him fix them.  This game is going to live again one way or another.  Besides, I'm learning a lot as I go, so it's worth the effort.

[ChadTower]

Ah ha... Mouser has 8200mfd caps in radial for $2.37 each.  I'll have to find some other parts to throw in to make shipping worth it but that should work just fine if I glue it to the board and run wire leads.

[ChadTower]

I pulled one end of one of the 8000mfd caps and measured it with the DMM.  It actually registers as 0mfd.  This thing must be deader than a can of Spam.  I was going to try to avoid replacing them, since I can't find 8000mfd caps for less than like $15 a pop, but I may have to replace them.

Just for giggles I made the same measurement on a brand new cap.  Same result of zero, even following the DMM's manual exactly.  Apparently this is not a useful test.

I'm going to replace all of the other caps, since I have replacements on hand, and see what difference that makes.  If it doesn't solve the issue I'll replace the 8000mfd caps at that point.

[ChadTower]

WTF... put in the order for 3 of hte 8200uF caps. 

I'm doing the rest now... looking at some of the 1uF caps on PCB1... the schematic says 25v, which I ordered, and the caps on board are 50v.   

Luckily, I have some 1uF 50v caps on hand, so I'll just use those to be sure.  This is why I always order a few extra.  They come in handy later.

[Level42]

Chad.......I know it's completely off topic, but the roadtrip last saturday.......


Let's say, I've seen arcade heaven. It's like a small Funspot I tell you !!!!
Name a pinball, and this guy has it !!!!! Lots of vids too, f.i. lot of "modern" sit-down driving incl. a Daytona with moving seats !!!

He's also the one who own's the WOF, you know that cardboard box they "accidently" drop in that Youtube clip....I've seen the box and played the pin, and they are both fine

I already thought that no "average" person would own a SW upright AND a cockpit overhere. He bought the cockpit in the US for around $1500 and had it shipped over !!! Worked for a day and bam...dead ! I can only imagine how he would have felt......
The cockpit has the Amplifone 25" but there's a WG6100 chassis in it (extremely poorly installed). Will need lots of parts for both machines....anyway, back on topic

[ChadTower]

Niiice.  Very pricey, too.

[ChadTower]

PCB1 95% recapped... I just have to wait on the 8200mfd caps to come in from Mouser.

I went here yesterday to try and find some replacement soldapult tips and a compressor for the desoldering station I recently picked up off ebay.  It took a three employee huddle for me to make them understand what a desoldering station with vacuum is - and that what I was looking for was not an integrated station but just an external compressor.  After 15 minutes it was determined that they have neither.  Then it took them 5 minutes to figure out that I was also looking for replacement soldapult tips, and was treated like an idiot, because of course it must be reasonable to buy a new soldapult every time the swappable nylon tip wears out.  Plus they don't carry nylon tips "because they don't fit on a desoldering station".

 

[ChadTower]

JAMMA!  Almost had to grab my pitchfork and light a torch...

[Level42]

JAMMA!  Almost had to grab my pitchfork and light a torch...

He should GIVE you the PCB's to make at least one piece of arcade gaming history completely working....

Yes, as far as I've understood from the schematics it's both these AC voltages. It would be pretty hard to make 12V DC from 6,3 V AC. It's always easier to make a lower than a higher voltage.

So, my suggestion that the monitor is not supplying power to the PCB set must be correct I guess....

[ChadTower]

So, my suggestion that the monitor is not supplying power to the PCB set must be correct I guess....

But how?  There isn't any voltage coming in to the game PCBs other than those four AC pins - and they all test good.  It doesn't look like that 5v power supply in the monitor is actually being used.  I figure it's a feature the monitor has but Kee didn't make use of it.  The low 5v and -12v just seem like they have to be the result of bad conversion from the AC sources.  We'll know a little more when I finish the cap job.

Hrm.  That just gave me a thought.  Now that I understand the power distribution better, I should revisit the wiring harness.  I was assuming the game was using all of the features of the monitor.  Maybe it isn't.  We have pretty much proven it doesn't use the 5v power supply.  I'm taking a second eye on the audio circuit and the speakers are fed straight from PCB1 - not through the monitor, even though it does have audio capability. 

Here is what I'm seeing in the diagram as going through the monitor:

• video
• 110v (for the monitor)
• the coin counter
• the fluorescent light (which doesn't exist - it's a cabaret)
• ground
• one wire that isn't labeled - green/white.  Goes from monitor connector pin 3 to PCB1 contact 21.  I need to identify this.  Most other greens in this game are some form of ground.

Given this, maybe now with what I understand it will be easier to replace the monitor, if possible, since less things than I thought are being driven through it (particularly the 6.3vAC sources).

[Level42]

So, my suggestion that the monitor is not supplying power to the PCB set must be correct I guess....

But how?  There isn't any voltage coming in to the game PCBs other than those four AC pins - and they all test good. 

That's pretty common right ? Galaxian runs on two AC voltages as well. The conversion to +5V DC and +12V DC is done on the game PCB. The schematics show that.

Without having to run through the entire thread again:

What values do measure on:
J3 pin 10 (Should be +5V)
and
J3 pin 8 (Should be +12V)

Measure to a GND on the PCB, not a ground "somewhere in the cab".

This is the PS part of the schematics:

You can see there are lugs for 105, 115 and 125 V. Check which is connected. Measure what your home AC is. Maybe by changing the connection on the transformer you can up the voltages a bit. (Suppose your wall-outlet is 110VAC ant the connected lug is 115, move it to the 105 VAC position.)

[ChadTower]

The inputs were tested on page 4 and check out good... it's definitely in the conversion.

Was just pointed to this from an RGVAC poster... haven't read completely through it yet but it should be insanely helpful.  It says on page 4 that the 5v from the monitor is used only for the coin counter.  It lays out most of the game board circuits in detail...

[Kaytrim]

Chad,

This is quite a detailed restoration project.  Keep at it I'd like to see you when you get it up and running.

[ChadTower]

Heh, I definitely feel like I'm going to know the game and monitor PCBs by heart by the time I'm done.

This Video Game Data Library manual is fantastic.  It appears to be third party - I would love to get more of these for other games.  The author's name is in here.  William Arkush.  Does that name ring a bell for anyone?

This bit of info from the intro is interesting.  How prophetic does this ring 30+ years later?

[ChadTower]

Man, Google turns up the oddest things.  I found a business profile for a William Arkush who used to work in microelectronics in CA in the 70s and early 80s... who then apparently went on to start a company called Glacier Valley Brandy in Montana that didn't last... who then had a run in with a grizzly bear looking for fermented fruit that was taken from his distillery.

 

Boozin’ Bear

KALISPELL, Mont. - A bear apparently bumped over barrels at a busted brewery and filled up on fermented fruit waste.

It seems the bear gorged itself on the remnants of fermented fruit, part of the debris dumped on the country property of Bill Arkush, formerly doing business as Glacier Valley Brandy, officials said Tuesday.

Arkush said he arrived home Monday evening to find a pile of debris, equipment and barrels at the entrance to his driveway.

“Two of the barrels were turned upside down and whatever was inside them was spread all over the place. And it smelled bad, with a capital B,” he said.

He also recognized some air conditioning equipment that came from the building that had housed his bankrupt brewery.

The building's landlord, Russ Olson, said it was Arkush's stuff and “we delivered it to him. The mistake that we made was that when we took them out of the truck we tipped over some of the barrels.”

Arkush called the sheriff's office, which dispatched the county's Office of Emergency Services to manage the stinky contents of the barrels, including possible animal waste and fermented fruit.

County officials decided to wait until Tuesday to remove the barrels. That's when the grizzly bear showed up.

Before finding the fermented waste, officials said the bear tore a door off a neighbor's chicken coop and rabbit hutch and tried to get into a building containing grain.

“The noise of the dogs woke me up,” Arkush said, and one of his neighbors saw the bear.

Tim Manley, a bear expert with the Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks, set a baited culvert trap for the bear.

Sheriff Jim Dupont said no charges would be filed against Olson because “there is no criminal intent there as far as we can tell.” But he said the county would be billing someone for cleaning up the mess.

[ChadTower]

The game board power supply circuit analysis - look at those detailed test points.  Fantastic.  Note that the PDF is clearer.  The forum is resizing the pic and losing detail.

[ChadTower]

Both boards totally recapped except the 8000mfd caps I'm hoping will arrive today.  Well, all except one 4.7mfd 50v cap.  I ordered based on the parts list in the manual, which lists 25v caps, and yet the ones on the board are 50v.  I had some 4.7mfd 50v caps on hand so I used those but came up one short.  Probably won't make a damn bit of difference.

Annoyingly, I looked them up at Rat Shack, and these caps are $1.19 each... at Mouser they are seven cents.

I need to start keeping a list of parts I run out of so I can batch up my orders for common stuff.

[ChadTower]

The replacements for the 8000mfd caps are in... and somehow I ordered radial rather than axial.  I can get these in but I'll have to side mount them and run leads, taking much much longer than just swapping the caps. 

 

[ChadTower]

Just backfilled a couple of pics on page 4:  the edge contact repair and the fingerboard mod for keying the connector.

Also, what I had to do in order to get the radial cap into the axial spot.  I did that with a lot of the small caps but it wasn't a problem - with small caps the leads are capable of that.  With a big one, no dice.  I soldered a wire onto the positive lead, soldered the negative lead into the negative hole, hot glued the cap down, ran the positive wire back to the positive pad, hot glued the wire down in two spots, and soldered the positive lead.  The negative lead actually goes through to a trace on the other side - the positive one does not, enabling me to do that surface attachment.  I used a thicker than is probably necessary wire and it wouldn't go through the positive through hole.

I'm almost too embarrassed to post this pic.  Everything had been going perfectly on board work until I did this.  Plus the battery is nearly dead on my camera so the pic is blurry.  It's been that kind of night.

[shardian]

OMG dude, just go to Ratshack and pay the $1.50 to do it right.

When I got my pin, the power board had a radial replaced with an axial in a manner that there were two 4" leads soldered poorly to the remaining legs of the original cap, and the cap just flopped in the breeze off of them. I'm surprised the whole cab didn't catch on fire at some point from that fix. Here is a pic. Just in case you are wondering, that is indeed a bare wire for the "-" lead.

[ChadTower]

Radio Shack does not carry capacitors anywhere near 8000mfd.  No way I'm paying another $15 and waiting another week for a Mouser order - and Roberts' price is more than twice that of Mouser.  Plus I'm not hungry.

It ain't optimal but it is a whole lot more secure than what you found on your power board.  Leads are covered, cap and wire are secure, and there is no new glue on any traces.  The old cap was already glued in the same spot the new one is glued. 

[rodo]

Hi,
I recently posted a question to rec.games.video.arcade.collecting asking about information on converting Tank PCB's (I have two sets) to JAMMA, so that I can connect them to my supergun (I love this hobby, but I just don't have room in my apartment for Cabs). One of the replies in that forum pointed me to this thread which is full of great information, and I've been following chadTower's progress.

I wanted to share information about what I have learnt, and ask questions about what I don't know. I hope no one minds if I tag onto this thread.

Firstly, Tank's two '2 way' controls I believe can be converted to a 4 way joystick like this:
4 way joystick up - connect to right up and left up
4 way joystick down - connects to right down and left down
4 way joystick left - connects to right up and left down
4 way joystick right - connects to right up and left down
fire button connects to fire.
(repeat for player 2)

The problem comes when trying to convert the power.
JAMMA does not include such voltages as 12.6VAC and 6.3VAC which are the two that the tank PCB's need, and which are then converted to TTL voltages (and +12V and -12V for sound) onboard. So I would have to purchase a separate transformer and rig up a power supply for the 12.6VAC and 6.3VAC lines. The original Triad power supply is rated as follows:

Triad   F-83A   Pri:105/115/125V 60Hz
Sec:12.6VCT 5A　12.6VCT 5A

I have not been able to find an exact replacement transformer that has 5Amps, However I did find the following transformers, and I was hoping if someone would be able to tell me which, if any, would be a good substitution for the original?

HAMMOND
185D12 : 43VA, 12.6VCT @ 3.4A / 6.3VCT @ 6.8A
185E12 : 80VA, 12.6VCT @ 6.3A / 6.3VCT @ 12.6A
http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/HAMMOND_MFG/Hammond-Mfg_Power-Products_8361870.pdf

266N12 : 50.4VA, 12.6VCT @ 4A / 6.3VCT @ 8A
http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/HAMMOND_MFG/Hammond-Mfg_Power-Products_8362075.pdf

STANCOR
TGC43-12 : 43VA, 12.6VCT @ 3.4A / 6.3VCT @ 6.8A
TGC80-12 : 80VA, 12.6VCT @ 6.3A / 6.3VCT @ 12.6A
http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/STANCOR/Stancor_Power-Products_Mfr_9282120.pdf

One quick question. Does the power to the monitor come from the Tank PCB, or from the transformer directly? As I will be using an old Apple II monitor (I'm assuming the Tank video out is just a standard black and white composite signal) to display the picture, so hopefully a small decrease in the input amperage won't make much difference.

Just a thought. If I don't need to power anything but the boards (no monitor, coin mechanism, bulbs, or anything else), would it be possible to just plug JAMMA/TTL (+5, +12, -12) voltages directly into the PCB and bypass the onboard power conversion circuity?  I see that the -12V is @ J3/15, +12V @ J3/8, and +5V is @ J3/10. Can I just connect the power lines from the supergun to these corresponding points on the board. (I do see a +18V and a +7V coming out of the power circuit, but I'm not sure what these are used for or where they go. Maybe they drive the monitor???)

Anyway, hope I can get it all working. I love the bronze age classics.

Philip

P.S. Does anyone know what the 'undocumented playfield select bit' is? Maybe something to do with adding more maze patterns? And finally I know the ROM is an oddball (MK28000P) but does a ROM dump for Tank or Tank II exist?

[ChadTower]

Awesome!  The project even brought in a new member.     Welcome.

The problem comes when trying to convert the power.
JAMMA does not include such voltages as 12.6VAC and 6.3VAC which are the two that the tank PCB's need, and which are then converted to TTL voltages (and +12V and -12V for sound) onboard.

They actually come in higher than 12.6 and 6.3.  Mine are coming in as 14.8 and 7.3.

So I would have to purchase a separate transformer and rig up a power supply for the 12.6VAC and 6.3VAC lines. The original Triad power supply is rated as follows:

Triad   F-83A   Pri:105/115/125V 60Hz
Sec:12.6VCT 5A　12.6VCT 5A

I don't think you need a 5A transformer here.  The monitor manual indicates a power consumption of 50 watts when not using the 5v supply or the audio, or 100 watts nominal.  You can cut that out of the requirements.  I would be willing to bet you can use one rated 2A or less.  A whole vid is generally considered to be about 2-2.5A so the game boards aren't using much more than 1A at the most.

One quick question. Does the power to the monitor come from the Tank PCB, or from the transformer directly?  As I will be using an old Apple II monitor (I'm assuming the Tank video out is just a standard black and white composite signal) to display the picture, so hopefully a small decrease in the input amperage won't make much difference.

The monitor does not take power from the game PCBs.  The only things going from the game PCBs to the monitor is the video output - edge contacts 21 and 22 on PCB2.

Just a thought. If I don't need power the boards (no monitor, coin mechanism, bulbs, or anything else), would it be possible to just plug JAMMA/TTL (+5, +12, -12) voltages directly into the PCB and bypass the onboard power conversion circuity?  I see that the -12V is @ J3/15, +12V @ J3/8, and +5V is @ J3/10.

I honestly don't know.  You'd have to look at the schematic to determine that.  Where do you see that +12v is J3/8?  J3/8 is unlabeled in the wiring diagram in the manual.

P.S. Does anyone know what the 'undocumented playfield select bit' is? Maybe something to do with adding more maze patterns? And finally I know the ROM is an oddball (MK28000P) but does a ROM dump for Tank or Tank II exist?

In my RGVAC searches I found references to AlexY and Spaeth talking about making custom adapters so that they could dump the Tank ROMs... but the threads just die and Spaeth never answered my emails asking if he ever pulled it off.

[rodo]

Thanks ChadTower,
I'm looking at the VGDL Vol.III service manual. Figure 3 (power supply schematics) seems to show J3/8, J2/20,21 as having +12V. directly below that there is a line saying '+12V to board'.

Thanks for the info on the power supply. Should I be looking for a power supply that produces voltages in the 14.8 and 7.3 range, or is 12.6 and 6.3 fine?
As for the amps, maybe I can look for one with a lower rating, or do you think the lower rated 43VA transformers I mentioned previously would work fine?

Cheers

[ChadTower]

Thanks ChadTower,
I'm looking at the VGDL Vol.III service manual. Figure 3 (power supply schematics) seems to show J3/8, J2/20,21 as having +12V. directly below that there is a line saying '+12V to board'.

I was looking at that the other day trying to figure out what J2 is... the game manual labels the two PCB edge connectors as J3 and J6.  All I can think of is that J2 and J1 are the interboard connectors - those hard soldered, flimsy paper ribbon cables you really don't want to eff with.  The schematic does seem to bear that out if I understand what I am reading.

I can't read the schematic enough to see if you could put 12v to J3/8, -12v to J3/15, and +5v to J3/10 and have it bypass the power supply circuit.   

Thanks for the info on the power supply. Should I be looking for a power supply that produces voltages in the 14.8 and 7.3 range, or is 12.6 and 6.3 fine?
As for the amps, maybe I can look for one with a lower rating, or do you think the lower rated 43VA transformers I mentioned previously would work fine?

If I were trying to do what you are doing I wouldn't be looking for a single brick transformer.  I would be looking through boxes of wall warts trying to find one in the 15VAC range and one in the 8-9VAC range and then making a custom harness out of an eyelet edge connector (go back a page or two in this thread for a visual example). 

[rodo]

I also have an old Needhams eprom programmer. After I get the boards working, maybe I'll try to rig up an adaptor and see if I can make a copy of the ROM.
I still haven't used the programmer. I bought it off ebay minus power adaptor, and I have been waiting for the new adaptor to arrive.

I found this info for the MK28000, but I'm not sure how accurate it is:

The MK28000 seems to have a "Virtual Ground" (to quote Mark), which means there doesn't seem to be a ground pin.

VCC   1 |--V--| 24  CE or CS (Active High)
A0    2 |     | 23  D0
A1    3 |  M  | 22  D1
A2    4 |  K  | 21  D2
A3    5 |  2  | 20  D3
A4    6 |  8  | 19  D4
A5    7 |  0  | 18  D5
A9    8 |  0  | 17  D6
-12V  9 |  0  | 16  D7
A8   10 |     | 15  A10
A7   11 |     | 14  CE or CS (Active High)
A6   12 |-----| 13  CE or CS (Active Low or High?)

 
Thomson :: General Purpose Mask Programmable ROM
 

Specsheet / Datasheet

 
Number of Words=2k
 
Bits Per Word=8
 
t(a) Max. (s) Access Time=600n
 
Number of Chip Selects=2
 
P(D) Max.(W) Power Dissipation=340m
 
Nom. Supp (V)=5.0
 
Status=Discontinued
 
Package=DIP
 
Pins=24
 
Military=N
 
Technology=PMOS

[ChadTower]

I'm always down for being part of projects that benefit the hobby as a whole, particularly for old stuff no one else will touch, but that is too far beyond my skillset and equipment.   

[rodo]

Well, I've never used an eprom programmer before, but hey...how hard can it be?

I hadn't thought of using two separate wallwarts. I like the idea, it's easier for sure. But I'm not a huge fan wallwarts as a whole, and was hoping for a more elegant 'single device' solution ;-)

I think you could be right about J2 being the connector ribbon cables. I can't see what else it could be.

[Kaytrim]

I hadn't thought of using two separate wallwarts. I like the idea, it's easier for sure. But I'm not a huge fan wallwarts as a whole, and was hoping for a more elegant 'single device' solution ;-)

If you want a 'single device' then make one.   Take an old computer power supply and rip out everything except the plug and fan.  Wire the wall warts to the plug and feed the fan from a third wall wart at 12v.  Then close up the case allowing the wires from the two wall warts for your system connected to a terminal strip.  The fan will keep the wall warts cool and you have a power supply that is a 'single device'. 

[ChadTower]

That's a pretty sweet idea.  You may not even really need the 12v one - two wall warts with low current aren't going to generate too much heat.

[ChadTower]

Finished the recap... now the 5v and -12v measure way off. 

Test point 1 in the third party book, though, measures 15.4vAC - the book says it should be 14vAC.  So maybe I'm on to something.

I discovered one thing, though.  When I flex the main harness connector I get a big pop through the speakers and the hum in the monitor changes a bit.  Maybe I should check the pins in there.

[rodo]

check for dry solder joints.

Do you think that the higher voltages at the test points are because your inputs voltages from the transformer are 14.8 and 7.3, instead of 12.6 and 6.3? Just a thought.

I found two wallwarts on ebay from the same seller.

- AT&T AC Power Supply Adaptor Adapter 9V 9VAC 800MA
and
- AC Power Supply Adaptor Adapter 14V 14VAC 1220MA

Maybe I'll get them. Do you think the Amps are enough?

P

[ChadTower]

Oh yeah, those amps should be fine.  I'm not an expert but I just don't see the boards pulling more than those supplies can give.

I have a whole shelf of wall warts I've collected over the years... from just about everything.  When you don't need a specific tip for the device end they are very useful for oddball voltages.

There shouldn't be any dry solder joints on the repair I made - that's the new eyelet connector.  There could easily be a loose wire in the harness, though, or a bad pin.  I flexed each of the wires individually and got no response but if you wiggle the whole thing you do get one.  One time I got a game sound - a small explosion.  I guess I need to do continuity checks on all of the harnesses.

[whammoed]

If it only happens when you flex the entire connector, I wouldn't rule out a broken trace near it either.  Just a thought.  If you don't initially find any open, you may want to check continuity somewhere where the trace leads to instead of just at the connector pins, and if you find it open, go back from there.

[blinddog]

I decided to drop by and see how the progress is going. I talk to you over at RVAC. Props for not giving up on this. I was thinking the same as whammoed if it’s happening when you move the harness it could also be an issue on the board, broken trace or cold solder joint on a component. The 14v at test point 1 is "about" 14v that’s what the ~ symbol means. I've included the voltages off my board just so you have something to compare to. My 12s are a bit low but everything seems to be working.

TP1 was 15.1VAC
6.3 line was 7.5VAC
TP8 (+5) was 5.1VDC
+12 was 11.5VDC
TP5 (-12) was -11.2

As for the alternate mazes there is a second configuration programmed into the rom. According to my notes all you have to do is ground D9 pin 6 on board 2. I haven’t done it yet (working on my night driver project right now) but I just got a second board so I can plus do a couple other mods too, controllable shells and reset tank location after you blow up. Keep up the good fight.
-Matt

[ChadTower]

Hey thanks, I appreciate the info.  I assumed the ~ meant AC like it does on the meter. 

[blinddog]

Well now I’m not sure. Have you ever come across something that proves you were wrong and probable have been for quite some time even though you were sure you were right. I've started second guess myself on the ~ or at least the ~ on top of the equals looking at the schematic it could very well mean AC voltage. You might not want to believe that ~ thing I just said till it’s proved right.

[ChadTower]

Context tells me it is AC here.  In a mathematic context, that is "almost equals", but here I can't see it being anything other than a differentiator between AC and DC.

[whammoed]

Context tells me it is AC here. 
 

You are correct:
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/symbol.htm

[Level42]

Yes, it's a graphical representation of an AC (sinus) voltage. Just like it looks on a scope.

[blinddog]

I agree that the sine wave ~ by itself is a symbol for AC voltage but the document I was referencing (VGL power schematic posted here on page 6) has a ~ on top of the = and originally I stated it means "the approximate value" actually I said it meant about but approximate value is a better phrase. I then started wondering if I was mistaken but looking  at the  schematic again I noticed that tp 2 and tp 3 are coming out of a full bridge rectifier which would make them DC voltages and now I’m thinking my originally statement is correct

[ChadTower]

Then how is one to know which points would be AC and which would be DC?  Just by knowing the circuit?

[whammoed]

Didn't know there was an = below the ~.  Are any of the voltages AC?  They are all designated as either + or -.  AC is neither + nor - ? Yes?

[Fozzy The Bear]

Didn't know there was an = below the ~.  Are any of the voltages AC?  They are all designated as either + or -.  AC is neither + nor - ? Yes?

Electronics 101 now in progress... No Talking In Class!! And spit out that chewing gum, boy!! 

It IS AC Volts.....  Points 1, 2 and 3  (also shown on the circuit diagram inside circles) are a part of the "Bridge Rectifier" that is converting those AC Volts to DC. The Bridge Rectifier is the circuit made up of the 4 Diodes set out in a diamond pattern at the lower left of the diagram.

In answer to your question about AC being + or - ..... yes it can be. The bridge rectifier works on a principle called half wave rectification, to smooth out the constant + to - swinging of the Alternating Current. It works by chopping out half of the sine wave that you can see on the oscilloscope. Hence it's still Partly AC at those points on the diagram, but only contains either the negative or positive half of the wave. So while it is still Alternating Current, at those points in the circuit. It is only swinging between +V and 0V  OR -V and 0V so on a meter it will look to be either positive or negative.

The symbol is shown as a wave over an equals sign to show that at that point in the circuit it is half wave rectified. The symbol acually represents AC Over DC  or  AC/DC.

The bits that only contain negative are sent out of the rectifier one way and the bits that only contain positive are sent out of the rectifier the other way.... this is done by the diodes which only allow current to travel in one direction. So now that we have half wave rectified current (effectively either positive lumps or negative lumps), we can pass that through smoothing capacitors and voltage regulators to convert it to a true stable DC +- Current.

Hope that expalins how it can be alternating current but Positive Alternating OR Negative Alternating.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[whammoed]

But point 1 is straight from the transformer.  Shouldn't it be strictly AC at that location, and if so what is the ~ over = for there?

So while it is still Alternating Current, at those points in the circuit. It is only swinging between +V and 0V  OR -V and 0V so on a meter it will look to be either positive or negative.

I'd buy that if there were only one diode in the diagram but there are 4.  Like you said a "Bridge Rectifier".
Points 2 and 3 are fully rectified, not half wave rectified.  It's not filtered but current is only flowing one way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier

[Fozzy The Bear]

But point 1 is straight from the transformer.  Shouldn't it be strictly AC at that location, and if so what is the ~ over = for there?

You are quite correct about that.....

I'd buy that if there were only one diode in the diagram but there are 4.  Like you said a "Bridge Rectifier".
Points 2 and 3 are fully rectified, not half wave rectified.  It's not filtered but current is only flowing one way.

You are quite correct again..... However it is still lumpy DC... That is, that at point 2 it is swinging between 0V and -V and at point 3 it is swinging between 0V and +V so it's not true DC, which has those lumps smoothed out to make it constant +V or constant -V. Hence the symbol. At those points it is still alternating positive or alternating negative. Hence the AC/DC symbol.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Level42]

I was always told that an AC current is only AC when it actually crosses the 0V line. SO, current flows one direction at one moment, then the other way the next moment.

So, although you could call it a "pulsed" DC, it's still already DC between points 2 and 3.

Anyway, a good explanation Fozz !

Also, don't forget about the rectification by CR20 and CR21. Everything behind those (so, across C42) is also DC.

[whammoed]

So what's the word?  Been too busy to work on it?
I haven't been able to cap my G07 since I've been at the hospital all week...going home today.
BTW, you took all the moon pies.  Got my order from Bob yesterday and not a single pie.   
I find the restoration/repair threads most interesting these days, so post something if you got it eh?

[ChadTower]

Why were you at the hospital?  Everything okay?

Haven't really touched the game since my last post.  I was getting too burnt out on it.  I did finish Paper Mario Thousand Year Door, though.

[whammoed]

Why were you at the hospital?  Everything okay?

Haven't really touched the game since my last post.  I was getting too burnt out on it.  I did finish Paper Mario Thousand Year Door, though.

My wife had a hysterectomy.  She had a hematoma from it which is why we didn't go home yesterday, but everything seems to be ok now, so we are going home today.  Thanks for asking.
I can understand getting burnt out on that, it's quite the undertaking.

[ChadTower]

Glad to hear she's okay.

[shardian]

Once you are done, you think you could write up a restoration article for Gameroom magazine?
I love the articles written by the E.M. restoring guy known as "The Doctor". The issues you have gotten into with the B&W monitor would be a neat read to most, I would think.

As a bonus, you would get paid!

[ChadTower]

I've PMed back and forth with Kevin on that before... it's not likely going to happen.  Not with this project, anyway.  I'm not even a Gameroom subscriber.

I don't think I am comfortable writing technical articles in an area where I am such a clear amateur.  It doesn't feel right.

Now, when I do the Black Knight restoration that is coming up... maybe.  That one would be looooong, though.

[ChadTower]

I was poking around this some more with the DMM the other day.  I finally came to the decision that I had two solid goals on this project:  make this game nice and reliable again and learn quite a bit in the process.  I have already learned a ton through a whole lot of reading and a bunch of help from you guys (thank you for that) and a couple elsewhere.  Looking at the queue of projects I have that I want to work on more than this one, and how long this one was taking me, I decided to bring this game to a pro.  It is now in the hands of this guy.  His website isn't that great but he is easily the best tech I know.  I bet he gets it running well inside of two hours unless he runs into a dead part he doesn't have on hand.

When it comes back I'm going to get some quality pics of whatever parts anyone would like to see, get it back together, and probably put it up in my son's room.  I'll probably scan the monitor bezel for the art library as well.

Next project is also going in to the same guy - I have an Asteroids Deluxe, complete, that isn't far from working.  I'm bringing the monitor and boards in for repair and will be cleaning up the cab myself.  That should be a good short one.

[shardian]

Don't forget to use the $5 off coupon!

[ChadTower]

Heh.  I do enough work with him it won't matter.  We give each other stuff for free at times, occasionally I'll help him out by sourcing a hard part or finding a buyer for a particularly hot machine.  I send a lot of local folks his way, too, as he doesn't do much to get his name out there and as you know we come across a lot of people in our collecting travels.

If you're ever in this area, it's worth a peek in his shop... he has a few thousand square feet and it was so crowded with cabs this week I had to climb over games to get in.


EDIT:  Found my original AD project thread.  Man, what a newb that guy was.   

[whammoed]

Cool.  Can't wait to hear what he does to get it running.

[rodo]

yes, and I'm curious to see how much his fees are too.

[whammoed]

Any word yet?

[ChadTower]

He still has it.  Last I talked to him he had poked around and agreed that the problem was likely in the power supply section of the PCB.  He hadn't done anything to it yet, though.  Right now is a very busy time for travelling techs - all of the summer joints are getting their stuff cleaned up and repaired for the upcoming season.  Side jobs like this get back burnered in favor of larger clients.

[danny_galaga]

Awesome!  The project even brought in a new member.     Welcome.

now wheres that pitchfork...

[ChadTower]

The pitchforks are kept in PnR.  That's where all the ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- is.

[rodo]

Right...I've had enough with the pitch fork jokes...ARRRRGGGHHHHH!

Ok, that feels better.

As I mentioned before, I don't have the luxury of space. I live in a small Tokyo apartment, so instead of collecting cabs, I collect 'untested' boards, repairing them where possible, building JAMMA adaptors for them and playing them on my supergun. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing, and it keeps me entertained.
So there is no classic cab to JAMMA conversion/hacks involved, so you can all put away the pitch forks ;-)
In fact I truly try to keep any repairs I do as original as possible..I'm old school like that.

At present I'm trying to fix an old Midway Guided Missile, Midway SI (I actually have another that I repaired some time ago, but this one is giving me trouble), and a Gyruss (with some character issues). if you are interested I have just started keeping a log of my fixes/issues here:

http://web.mac.com/lord_philip/Arcade/Midway_Space_Invaders.html

Anyway...enough with the off topic conversation.
So, I'm about get ready for building an adaptor for my tank PCB and have ordered the parts from Jammaboards.com, and I hope to have them arrive sometime next week. I will look locally for a power supply, as the ebay sellers are just asking far too much for shipping to Japan.

So my question is, can anyone confirm that the voltages that Chadtowers is getting from his PSU (14.8 and 7.3) are in fact correct? It's easy for me to find an AC PSU here that does 12.6ac and 6.3ac, but anything higher seems a little difficult here in Japan (don't know why). Just wanted to be sure before I slap down some hard cash.

...now where did I put that pile of smurf-poop.

P

[rodo]

He should GIVE you the PCB's to make at least one piece of arcade gaming history completely working....

Sorry, I feel compelled to reply to this... Level42, I have a dead Atari Centipede (constantly resets), I see you have one also, please private email me and I'll reply with my shipping address so that you can send me yours for free.

Anyway...so I spent the last few hours replacing some obvious broken parts on my board, and hooked it up to my newly purchased PSU. What would you know...it works!

Seems to have a few issues with white tank not firing (and maybe others, but I'm not 100% sure yet), and I guess there isn't really an attract screen, which kind of threw me off at first.

Next step, solder up a proper adaptor so I can get rid of this crazy mess of wires.

P

[Level42]

He should GIVE you the PCB's to make at least one piece of arcade gaming history completely working....

Sorry, I feel compelled to reply to this... Level42, I have a dead Atari Centipede (constantly resets), I see you have one also, please private email me and I'll reply with my shipping address so that you can send me yours for free.

Uhhmmmm. No.

Don't take everything I say so literary.

Besides, you can get Centipede PCB's by the dozens everywhere.

[rodo]

Don't take everything I say so literary.

i'll remember that in the future.

[ChadTower]

Don't take everything I say so literary.

i'll remember that in the future.

He means literally.  He was joking with the original statement - we have a pretty dry sense of humor around here.   

[rodo]

Still no word on the board?

I'm having some problems figuring out how to adapt the tank controls to a 4 way joystick...see here:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.arcade.collecting/browse_thread/thread/7cbcad2e42a0335f/7cac0a322691f09e#7cac0a322691f09e

So I gave up for tonight. Off to sleeeeeeeeeep.

[rodo]

Much progress made:

http://web.mac.com/lord_philip/Arcade/1974_Kee_Tank.html#0

[Level42]

Whatever happened to this project ?

In fact: Whatever happened to Chad ? Normaly he replies to about any thread here....hope he's OK ?

In the meantime chad, you could consider getting this over from Germany. It's a steal :S

Shorten Those Links!

[SirPeale]

Chad's okay.  He's just taking a break from BYOAC for a while.

[Level42]

Sorry about the link.

I guess Chad is in BYOAC-forum rehab ?

Seriously, glad he's OK.

[ChadTower]

It's time to recover this sucker from the guy who took it in for repair... haven't heard anything from him since I dropped it off.

[hatrick]

I just read through this thread as I am troublshooting an Atari/Kee Sprint 2 game (1976).
It also uses a b&w monitor (23") and has the power supply on the PCB.
So far I've had to replace the LM323 which is the +5volt regulator, and the 2ohm resistor in the same circuit. I'm still getting slightly higher DC voltage than I'd like to be sending to the 74 series IC's, so I'm going to try replacing the caps next. The Sprint 2 board also uses those 8000uf caps and they are darn near impossible to find. I've decided to go with the 8200uf caps, but I'm going to have to go with radial rather than axial on those.

Sorry to throw this into your thread, I'm interested to see how yours turns out. I love working on these old boards, but finding parts can be a beeotch.

[ChadTower]

Welcome!  Nice on the Sprint 2.  I think I ended up going with 8200uf too and I definitely had to go radial.  It was sort of ugly with a jumper for one lead, and some hot glue to keep it all secure, but it did work as far as I could tell.

[hatrick]

FYI...I saw a post on KLOV for sale section where a guy was selling a complete working Tank II game for $40.
It was a recent for sale post in the last day or so.

[ChadTower]

found it.  Too bad he's in Nebraska.

[Kevin Mullins]

 

Just spent an hour reading through this entire thread and it just up and ended ?!?
No conclusion....
I want my money back.....

Kinda back in the day at the movie theater when the reel would just up and break towards the end of the movie.
 

Looking forward to seeing your progress on this one.

[ChadTower]

  That guy still has it and still hasn't touched it.  I'd push him to give it back except for the moment he's basically providing free storage for me. 

[Majoraslayer]

Out of curiosity (you mentioned this thread in my Crash 'N Score thread), did you ever get the game back?

[ChadTower]

Heh, the guy still has it, and I keep saying "I'm going to go get it this weekend" and then it doesn't happen.   

[Level42]

Then in the meantime, look at this SWEET looking machine my German friend Superully picked up:
http://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=983.0

I hope he can find some original controls....

[shardian]

Then in the meantime, look at this SWEET looking machine my German friend Superully picked up:
http://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=983.0

I hope he can find some original controls....

Heh, a welded piece of pipe to a washer. Awesome.

[Kevin Mullins]

Looks like the right side was carpeted at one point in time.   

[DaOld Man]

Do all German speedometers start at 20Kmh?
So 0-20 is nothing?

[Level42]

Do all German speedometers start at 20Kmh?
So 0-20 is nothing?

Ully's car is an Opel thus a (former) GM product.....

[THE POKER BRAT]

bump

[hatrick]

Then in the meantime, look at this SWEET looking machine my German friend Superully picked up:
http://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=983.0

I hope he can find some original controls....

Wow, that is a clean looking Tank! I just picked a Tank up the other day, but sadly the cabinet was completely destroyed by water. I have all the guts and plan to build a new cab for it.

[ChadTower]

Oh nice, definitely keep a thread on that one.  I'd like to see it.   

[Stiletto]

Attached you can find the datasheet for the ROM. Very hard to find.
Contents are the same between Tank and Tank II supposedly. Dumps are in the wild these days.

[ChadTower]

Wow.  Thanks!   

[bw]

Attached you can find the datasheet for the ROM. Very hard to find.
Contents are the same between Tank and Tank II supposedly. Dumps are in the wild these days.

I'm not one to necro old threads, but wanted to see if anybody knew of a source for the ROM used in Tank/Tank II.  I've got one that I'll be digging into soon (I expect my Logic Comparator to get a real workaround) and it would be nice to have a dump of the ROM just in case...

Game's powering up, CRT is up - some audio, some motor noise, but nothing close to playable.

@ChadTower - if that guy *still* has yours, I'd go pick that sucker up - given the time that's passed, you're better off finding somebody else to give it a once-over I suspect...especially after all the work you've already done!

Thanks for the informative thread; I suspect I'll be referring to it.

[ChadTower]

Heh, that guy actually does still have it.  At this point it's more about the fact that he buried the thing behind 50 other games in his warehouse.  I do need to go get it at some point but it's always "some other day".  I could probably fix it myself now if I had the hours to sit with a probe checking all of those TTL chips.  I've learned a LOT since then.