Could somone explain the neo geo vs regular six button layout argument?

[rackoon]

My panels are steel and already drilled and cut for my three sided cocktail cab. My layout is simply the street fighter layout with the six buttons. I tried the search the neo geo button thing but cant find the simple answers I'm looking for. i even tried Klov.com to see what a neo geo button layout looks like but failed. I'm not even sure I have played a neo geo game.

Can't I still use my street fighter layout to play neo geo games. I'm I going to miss out on something?
Could somebody simplify this for me?

[rackoon]

OK I have been searching and it turns out that one of my favorite games is sumeri showdow and it seems to be neo geo. What the heck would I need seven buttons for a game that uses four. Cant one jsut use the  top three and the first bottom buttun on the left of a street fighter layout.

Am I just way off on this.

Oh and In my searches I found a mortal combat 3 cab with real weird layout but I remember them being just like street fighter layouts. Was I playing conversions or just have bad memory?

[Kronos]

Mortal Kombats had 5 buttons 2 on one side a middle button and 2 on the other side... middle was for block ( If I remember correctly)

[Kevin Mullins]

Cant one just use the  top three and the first bottom button on the left of a street fighter layout.

Yes.

You could have twelve buttons all in a circle like a clock if you wanted to.......
It's just a matter of how you map the buttons for a particular game or system of games and knowing which ones they are.

I see alot of guys that use a six or seven button layout just to open the options of being able to play the Street Fighter type games that use that many buttons. But that doesn't mean they can't play a game that only needs ONE button.

[Xiaou2]

With Samurai Showdown,  the buttons were  A,B,C,D.   To execute certain moves,
you need to press A+B  & C+D  & even  A+B+C+D.    In many Samurai Showdown cabs,
the buttons were all in a straight line... which makes it easier for you to press 2 or all 4
buttons at one time.

 The 6 button layout would make it much more difficult - most notably - to press all 4 buttons
at once,  because youd need to hit 3 from the top + 1 from the bottom set.

 Yet, people also like to play Street Fighter games too... and so want a 6 button layout.

 Thus they make the 7 button layout so can play either set correctly.
 

[Namco]

Samurai Shodown 2 and Street fighter are my two favorite games. My buttons are a Street Fighter 2 layout with the two rows of three buttons. For Samsho2, the most comfortable setup is to map buttons A and B to button 1 and 2. For C and D I map those to buttons four and five. If you want to make the game a bit easier, you can map button 3 to A and B, so that way when you want to throw a strong slash in Samsho, you can do it with one button. Map button 6 to C and D and you can do the same thing with that. If you want to hit all four buttons at the same time (don't remember which game needed that, because all I play are Ukyo and Haohmaru in samsho2), well then just hit buttons 3 and 6 together and there you go! 

Adding the 7th button to the left of the bottom row really gets in the way of a good sf2 battle and is really bothersome. I know this from experience because my first CP had a 7th button and it sucked because of the extra button.

[rackoon]

Thanks Namco. That sounds like some great advice regarding button mapping. It doesnt sound like im missing oout on anything by only having a street fighter set up. that good because I dont have the rom to add the seventh button because my CP is only six inches deep on the third side of my cocktail cab and i all ready have the metal CP drilled.

[MaximRecoil]

This is a Neo-Geo control panel:



This is a typical 7-button layout:



See the resemblance?

[blueznl]

Yeah, I always wondered if the layout was inspired by Micky Mouse... the four (!) fingers are a dead giveaway... 

[unclet]

The idea is that if you really like the feel of a Neo-Geo panel (see pic in post above), then you can maintain that same layout and "feel" on your control panel.

Having a "Neo-Geo setup" just refers to whether a control panel has four buttons similiar to an authentic "Neo-Geo control panel layout .... thats it.

Based on the picture of the authentic Neo-Geo control panel in the post above, it looks like all Neo-Geo games would only need at most 4 buttons.    On your control panel, you can use any four buttons you want to play Neo-Geo games, but the question is "Will you be happy if the four buttons you choose to play with are not in the authentic configuration as a true Neo-Geo control panel?"  Some people could care less about that and others really care.

Hope this clears it up for you ....

[shardian]

For Mortal Kombat, I do it like this:


1             2                   3                 4
High P     Low Punch    Low Kick      High Kick

And also set it so that 2+3 = Block (remember, MAME has supported multi-key inputs for years now)

Considering that 95% of the time I'm playing games that don't require more than 3 buttons, I'm satisfied with this compromise.

FYI, you could do Mortal Kombat on the 3 button layout ala Sega Genesis if you wanted.

1=low punch, 2=block ,3=low kick
1+2 = high punch, 2+3 = high Kick.

I actually got to the point back in the day that I preferred the Genesis controller over the actual arcade controls.

[Tiger-Heli]

"Will you be happy if the four buttons you choose to play with are not in the authentic configuration as a true Neo-Geo control panel?"  Some people could care less about that and others really care.

Unclet nailed it - but here's a more detailed explanation.

I'm dating myself, but I remember when Asteroids was popular in the arcades (or at least the bowling alley near us).  It uses 5 buttons.  You can play it with a SF layout.  I sucked at it, but if I had played it a lot in the arcades, I would be used to the buttons being in a certain position.  And if MAME and arcade cabinets were around at the time, I would want the home panel layout to be similar, both so I could play it as I remembered, and also so I could improve and if I ever found an actual machine in the "wild", I would be able to do much better on it.

Basically, if Samsho is your favorite game from the arcades and there is a real machine near you, you probably want it as close to authentic as you can get for nostalgia.  If you just found it through MAME and liked the gameplay, not so much ...

[Turnarcades]

6 buttons cover most games, and being so close together in a uniform fashion, multiple simultaneous button presses shouldn't be a problem anyway. If you've become accustomed to a 6-button fighting layout over the years as most people have, or if you're a fighting game specialist, layout shouldn't mean much.

Besides, for most people who don't play every one of their emulated games to death one at a time, and just casually breeze by them occasionally, I wouldn't imagine the banality of button layout would ever matter.

Unless you're trying to repro a classic machine with an unusual layout, stick with one that covers the most bases without overkill. 4 buttons - too little for most fighting games, 7 buttons - only a few games use. Stick with what ya got!

[DeLuSioNal29]

I'd also like to point out that although it may be the owner's preference that there not be 7 buttons:  What about the people that you invite over to use the machine?  Maybe they WANT 7!

For example:

Let's say I prefer only 4 buttons for 6 button games.  It may be easy for me to press 2 simultaneous buttons to make up for the lack of the 5th and 6th buttons.  OK fine.

However, when a buddy comes over and says, "Hey, why are there only 4 buttons?" and you pipe out, "Aw it's no big deal, just press 2 at once to get the extra buttons.  Most of the games I play only have 2-4 anyway, so you don't need them".  They may be polite and say, "Oh, OK", but what they are really thinking is, "Man, that sucks!  Oh well, beggars can't be choosers."

I don't know about you... but although I am building this cab for myself, the main reason I'm building it is for my friends that come over.  And of course for "showoff value" - Hey why not?  It took this long to build it right?  The worst thing that can happen is that they are uncomfortable with the controls in my opinion.  Why leave the job unfinished?  Even if they only use it a few times, it's worth having that option.  Because the one time they want to play something and you don't have the controls for it is that one time you wish you had put them in to begin with!

~ DeLuSioNaL

[wp34]

Namco,

Could you elaborate some on the following?

Adding the 7th button to the left of the bottom row really gets in the way of a good sf2 battle and is really bothersome. I know this from experience because my first CP had a 7th button and it sucked because of the extra button.

I have been planning on 7 buttons cheating the 7th a little over to be used for the Defender/Stargate reverse button.  Since I will be playing SF2 much more than Defender I may not want the 7th button.  Did you hit it by accident a lot playing SF2?  I appreciate the feedback.

[Turnarcades]

Yeah but on the thesis of pleasing everybody, why not go for 8? or 9? Although rare, somebody coming round might want to play mahjong with a full rack of buttons!

The point I was trying to make is for the 'handful' of games that may use 7, it may be a bit much. It may be a different story in the US, but over here in the UK, I don't ever recall seeing a machine with 7 buttons. I guess there were a few, but I can't name them off the top of my head, and if people have them to keep a 'NEO-GEO' layout as well as a regular SF2 layout, then it is overkill, a la this thread:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=48926.msg475725#msg475725

If you have loads of mates who insist on a 7th button, then they're either mahjong masters, or purists, in which case the Neo-Geo layout is wrong on a 7-button layout in that it's alignment is off from a true 'Neo anyway - which was further away and laid out in an arc.

[LeedsFan]

I think it's all down to personal preference and what type of games you enjoy most. I spent a while trying to get the button layout as best I could for myself. Purely for comfort and flexibility across as many games as possible.



Please forgive the crappyness of the pics.    This is just a quick mockup I made in 15mm shelf board. Button one is a bit skewed to the right, but the idea of what I was aiming for should be clear.



In this pic I can easily rest my fingers on butoons 1, 2 and 3. My thumb falls perfectly on button 7 and can flick quickly to button 4 and 5. Only button 6 needs much more movement to be pressed. I was thinking that Defender could be played like this with the thumb being used for reverse on button 7. Not too sure I could get used to using my left thumb while moving up/down on the joystick. I will try but this configuration does allow me a getout.



And in this mode it replicates the 4-button Neo-Geo layout in as much comfortable position  as is possible for me.

I did actually consider 8 buttons on the panel just to cover non Mame games that would use a Playstation gamepad such as PES series. But I figured those games would be best with a joypad anyway and have decided to stick with 7 buttons.

[MaximRecoil]

If you have loads of mates who insist on a 7th button, then they're either mahjong masters, or purists, in which case the Neo-Geo layout is wrong on a 7-button layout in that it's alignment is off from a true 'Neo anyway - which was further away and laid out in an arc.

See the picture I posted earlier in this thread. Those 4 buttons on the Neo-Geo CP in that picture are not in an arc. Three of them are in a straight line and the leftmost one is a bit southwest from them. And yes, it is a "true" Neo-Geo CP. It says "SNK" and "MVS" on it. It is the type of Neo-Geo control panel you'll find on Japanese "Candy Cabinets". Since SNK is a Japanese company, I'd say that is about as "true" as you are going to get.

[CheffoJeffo]

Wow ... I was gong to post an objection to the NG-on-a-curve comment, but decided against it since I was too lazy to go to HardMVS and look at all the different CP layouts.

Most of the "real" NG cabs I have seen (including my own MVS-2-25) follow the "standard" layout as presented by maximrecoil.

It appears, however, that the Electrocoin models in the UK used an arc, which may be where samshaw946 got his idea.

I've always been happy with a SF-6 layout on my MAME boxes, but then again, I have a dedicated NG. 

[DeLuSioNal29]

FYI, the X-Arcade Stick has sold millions and they have 8 buttons!

~ D

[LeedsFan]

FYI, the X-Arcade Stick has sold millions and they have 8 buttons!

~ D

I think they only added the 8th button just to cover the rare instances people would use these for Playstation games etc. As a commercial decision I suppose adding two more buttons was no more effort just to cover that base. The vast majority of buyers of the X-Arcade would have used it for Mame... I have no doubt about that. (I even bought one before I did my first cab just to scratch the itch of no retro fun). IIRC it comes with Mame keys set up as default even though it is programmable.

[Tiger-Heli]

I think they only added the 8th button just to cover the rare instances people would use these for Playstation games etc.

It also comes with adapters for use with console systems, hence the extra buttons.

[Cowdisease]

You can kill two birds with one stone with the Japanese 6-button curved layout since the top row of buttons and the lower-left button mimic the Neo-Geo layout.

[DeLuSioNal29]

You can kill two birds with one stone with the Japanese 6-button curved layout since the top row of buttons and the lower-left button mimic the Neo-Geo layout.

Brilliant!  Nice!

~ D

[javeryh]

You can kill two birds with one stone with the Japanese 6-button curved layout since the top row of buttons and the lower-left button mimic the Neo-Geo layout.

That's a great idea!  I might have to look into this since I plan to use the attached layout.  I could just shift the bottom row to the left instead of the right!

[Malenko]

I have the hotrod layout, its the best in my eyes.  uses the 2x3 block for SF style games, the bottom row of 4 buttons for neo geo, ABC of the neo geo layout work perfect for the NBA JAM style games and NHL Open ICE and I use the A button of the neo geo layout for run in UMK3.

[DeLuSioNal29]

I have the hotrod layout, its the best in my eyes.  uses the 2x3 block for SF style games, the bottom row of 4 buttons for neo geo, ABC of the neo geo layout work perfect for the NBA JAM style games and NHL Open ICE and I use the A button of the neo geo layout for run in UMK3.

I agree.  The HanoHo Hotrod joystick has 7 buttons.

[Namco]

Namco,

Could you elaborate some on the following?

Adding the 7th button to the left of the bottom row really gets in the way of a good sf2 battle and is really bothersome. I know this from experience because my first CP had a 7th button and it sucked because of the extra button.

I have been planning on 7 buttons cheating the 7th a little over to be used for the Defender/Stargate reverse button.  Since I will be playing SF2 much more than Defender I may not want the 7th button.  Did you hit it by accident a lot playing SF2?  I appreciate the feedback.

In practice I hated it because while playing Street FIghter, I would accidentally hit that 7th button sometimes for short kick. I relied so much on touch to find the buttons, that the presence of the 7th button threw me off and I ended up re-centering around that extra button. In Samurai Shodown I had a similar problem. Occasionally I would end up up on the top row of buttons accidentally because my hand just moved up there and I felt those buttons and tried to use them.

I just didn't like it I guess. Maybe that I was too used to a SF2 layout and the 7th button was in the way of where my  thumb would rest a lot of times. I'm glad my first control panel had it so I could try it out and learn that I didn't like that setup. Also it felt wrong that the neogeo button row was a couple inches below the centerline of the joystick.

Also, there was no way in hell I was going to drill a 7th button or a coin button into this perfect CP:

That would have been heresy 

For Samurai Shodown, I  found that it adapted very well to a Street Fighter layout. When you think about it, pressing A+B for a heavy slash is just an accommodation to compensate for a lack of heavy slash buttons. Moving the kick buttons to the 2nd row or mapping the 3rd buttons to the heavy slash/kick just improves the gameplay. It hasn't hurt my gameplay one bit using a SF2 layout to play neogeo games.

[DeLuSioNal29]

Why not just disable the button assignment of the 7th button for those games?  That way if you accidentally press it it won't do anything?

[Tiger-Heli]

Why not just disable the button assignment of the 7th button for those games?  That way if you accidentally press it it won't do anything?

What he meant was that he hit it instead of button 4.  It won't do anything, but you also won't kick (if that's button 4) and that might cost you winning the game...

[kowal]

You can kill two birds with one stone with the Japanese 6-button curved layout since the top row of buttons and the lower-left button mimic the Neo-Geo layout.

exactly. down 7 button needed only UMK3 (for RUN)
jap layout Sega Astro City 1P is the best

[Namco]

I was playing the other day and I realized that on a street fighter 2 layout, it's actually no problem to hit all buttons at the same time. Especially with some happ competitions. They click definitively and take little force to press.

But should you decide to do 7 buttons, you can always install a button plug if you change your mind.
http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/52621200.htm
I always liked seeing them as a kid for some reason.

[nipsmg]

The 7 button (3 top, 4 bottom(one offset) layout works well for most fighting games. 
It also comes in handy for the entire Mortal Kombat series, as MK3 added a "Run" button, which (if I recall correctly) was positioned to the bottom left of the normal 5 button X layout.

The way I map mortal kombat generally is as follows:

Code: [Select]


       HP    BL     HK   
        4      5      6
        LP    BL    LK
        1      2      3
7
RUN



[wp34]

Namco:  Thanks for posting back.  Nice looking CP too!

[Cowdisease]

You can kill two birds with one stone with the Japanese 6-button curved layout since the top row of buttons and the lower-left button mimic the Neo-Geo layout.

That's a great idea!  I might have to look into this since I plan to use the attached layout.  I could just shift the bottom row to the left instead of the right!

This Sanwa template should help you position those buttons perfectly.

[Namco]

Here was my first panel I built around 6 or 7 years ago with the SF2 layout + NeoGeo layout.

I never did like that pesky 7th button    ... but that's just preference  . Plus it's the Happ Ultimate Joystick and Ultimate buttons which have the accuracy and responsiveness of something between the likes of clay and peanut butter. I'm much happier with the Happ Competition buttons and stick that I have on the SF2 panel.