Making a U360 into a top fire!

[LeedsFan]

Crazy? Maybe... but I think it's possible.

I asked the question recently if anyone had successfully made their own "top-fire" joystick and people pointed me to this thread:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=20914

Quite a neat bit work there installing that button to a ball top. No reason why that exact same button couldn't be installed into a U360 ball top. Aren't they both 35mm balls?


Then I saw this thread about adding glowing LED ball tops onto Sanwa joysticks:

http://www.retroblast.com/Articles/DIY-LED-Joysticks.php

Now on close inspection I noticed that those Sanwa shafts are the exact same shafts used in the U360s. So getting the hole machined like Franco did there should be no problem. Just gotta find a machine shop to do it. 

Then we come to the problem of the wires. Franco had it easy because the wires just come out the end of the shaft. Of course you can't exactly do that with a U360 because the end is covered with the magnet. However... the magnet only sticks to the end of the shaft with its own magnetism and so is easily removed. Also there is the slot cutting in the end of the joystick shaft which will now be either side of the hole to be drilled.

One of these slots would be perfect to run the wires through. All you would need to do then is drill a very small notch into the back of the magnet to allow the wires to escape out. The magnet will then sit exactly as normal on the end of the shaft. Only a small notch is needed in the raised bit surrounding the centre part..... you can't drill right through or the joystick wont work. You may also have to line up the notch with the gap the e-clip has.

I don't see any reason why this couldn't work. The only other problem I can envisage is if someone twists the shaft while playing games, because that will wrap the wires round under the control panel.

What you think? Stupid idea or viable mod? 

[AndyWarne]

. The only other problem I can envisage is if someone twists the shaft while playing games, because that will wrap the wires round under the control panel.

What you think? Stupid idea or viable mod? 

That problem would need to be solved and I have not yet thought of a way...
Andy

[Vash]

. The only other problem I can envisage is if someone twists the shaft while playing games, because that will wrap the wires round under the control panel.

What you think? Stupid idea or viable mod? 

That problem would need to be solved and I have not yet thought of a way...
Andy

This might be new years talking...but super glue?  If the only problem is not having the shaft get twisted, just glue it to the sides of the panel(the hole you drilled ), and call it a day.  It'd make disassembling a ---smurfette---, but it'd prevent anyone from just absently twisting the shaft....god, that sounds like a really bad innuendo. 

[LeedsFan]

. The only other problem I can envisage is if someone twists the shaft while playing games, because that will wrap the wires round under the control panel.

What you think? Stupid idea or viable mod? 

That problem would need to be solved and I have not yet thought of a way...
Andy

This might be new years talking...but super glue?  If the only problem is not having the shaft get twisted, just glue it to the sides of the panel(the hole you drilled ), and call it a day.  It'd make disassembling a ---smurf---, but it'd prevent anyone from just absently twisting the shaft....god, that sounds like a really bad innuendo. 

No mate.... the joystick shaft twists and moves in a bearing. There's no way to stop it doing that because if you did the stick just wouldn't move. The problem is to how to allow the shaft to behave normally but without allowing constant rotation which would wrap the wires up under the panel.

I thought about attaching a small length of plastic to the shaft that would protrude past the blocks that the metal legs attach to. That would still allow the stick to twist but not constantly. However, when the stick is moved in any direction so will the length of plastic making it totally unworkable.The joystick wouldn't be able to reach half it's positions. The problem is quite a difficult one to get round.

Of course for personal use I could just go ahead with my mod and be careful not to twist the shaft. But for commercial purposes that flaw in the idea needs to be eradicated totally.

[headkaze]

That problem would need to be solved and I have not yet thought of a way...
Andy

What about my patented Anti-Twist Rotary Cable Connector? Only 99 cents each! 

[LeedsFan]

That problem would need to be solved and I have not yet thought of a way...
Andy

What about my patented Anti-Twist Rotary Cable Connector? Only 99 cents each! 

How does this work exactly? I've been studying the diagram a while now trying to picture in my mind how this works or connects. 

[headkaze]

How does this work exactly? I've been studying the diagram a while now trying to picture in my mind how this works or connects. 

It would probably be difficult to make something like this. Bascially what it is is two small discs that spin around independantly of each other. The red wire connects to the centre of one disc to a metal contact. This metal contact touchs the contact on the other side where the red wire continues on. So while the two discs can rotate around the centre they still contact in that centre part where the red wire connects on each side to allow the current to pass through.

The blue wire is separated by a concentric buffer zone where the two discs do not contact each other. In the picture you can see in the Top View the blue wire is separate to the red wire by a light grey area. This is where no current can pass between one disc to the other.

The dark grey area is where the blue wire is connected to it's own metal contact area. This represents the area that allows current to pass between the two discs for the blue wire. But this time it's in a concentric circle like the irus around pupil. This is so it can rotate around the disc and even be 90 degrees across from the blue wire on the other side of the disc but still have a contact through that concentric metal plate.

It will not intefere with the red wire because of the buffer zone. This design could allow for more wires to be added by putting in more concetric buffer zones and more concentric connection plates.

It's a little hard to explain, but I think the picture can help one visualise it. I really couldn't be bothered getting out a 3d application and actually making a model of it which would probably help. But it might be too complicated thing for Andy to manufacture anyway. But I think in general it's a good idea and would solve the problem of wires that need to twist.

[yugffuts]

That's not a 'new' idea.  The spinner on my Rock n Roll pinball worked in that fashion.  Your picture doesn't explain the idea, though.

Take a joystick shaft with a top fire button.  That button has 2 leads going down through the shaft.  Each lead (button & ground) ends at a bottom plate with a round metal ring, so no matter the orientation of the shaft, it is always connected to some part of the ring.

Below this, there is a non-moving platform with identical rings always in contact with the above moving parts.  The wires connect to this non-moving part, so the wires will not tangle.

For the record, this same idea would allow you to add buttons to 900 degree or unrestricted steering wheels.

[headkaze]

That's not a 'new' idea.  The spinner on my Rock n Roll pinball worked in that fashion.  Your picture doesn't explain the idea, though.

Take a joystick shaft with a top fire button.  That button has 2 leads going down through the shaft.  Each lead (button & ground) ends at a bottom plate with a round metal ring, so no matter the orientation of the shaft, it is always connected to some part of the ring.

Below this, there is a non-moving platform with identical rings always in contact with the above moving parts.  The wires connect to this non-moving part, so the wires will not tangle.

For the record, this same idea would allow you to add buttons to 900 degree or unrestricted steering wheels.

Okay so where can Andy get these things from and how much are they?

[yugffuts]

I have no idea where they can be purchased.  I was just trying to illustrate the idea a bit more clearly.

[Kremmit]

But the two discs will not fit in the available space.

[koolmoecraig]

Use a "clock spring" like airbag equipped steering wheels use.

[LeedsFan]

My original question was more for someone at home to do their own mod. I wouldn't think there is enough demand for top-fire joysticks to warrant Andy getting involved in this commercially. I could be wrong of course.

So far in my limited time use the U360 has proven to be the best stick I've ever owned. So slick and versatile. 

[yugffuts]

Sorry, I wasn't thinking in terms of the actual stick.  The principal is still valid, however.

Create a hollow tube that can be affixed above the circuitry on the bottom of the shaft of the stick.  This would allow the stick all its' existing movements, and would house 2 rings that would be in constant contact with the shaft of the stick.  Run your leads off that stationary ring, and you will avoid any wire tangling.

[whammoed]

Screw audio jack into end of stick.  Use right angle audio cable:

[headkaze]

Screw audio jack into end of stick.  Use right angle audio cable:

Great idea! 

[whammoed]

Screw audio jack into end of stick.  Use right angle audio cable:

Great idea! 

I think slikstik was the first to do it.

Also: Don't put the button on top.  Top fire sucks.  Put the button on the "side/front" of the balltop.

[LeedsFan]

The audio jack idea can't work with the U360 because of the unique way in which this joystick works (in that it needs a magnet on the end of the shaft to move over a sensor).
Very clever idea for standard sticks... but not the U360.

[LeedsFan]

.......  Run your leads off that stationary ring, and you will avoid any wire tangling.

I think I understand what you mean now. But won't the leads from the button coming through the shaft be connected to the stationary ring? Then the ring that is free to move round the shaft.... but which is in constant contact with the the stationary ring to allow current to flow.... is the one that you connect to the encoder.

Then you could twist away as much as you like. Just need to have decent contact between the rings. The rings would have to be under the black plastic restrictor part but above the e-clip. With a restrictor in place it would be the only way.

EDIT:   more thoughts as I study the U360. You could actually pack out the small hole in the top of the magnet with one or two washers. This would move the magnet down about 2 mm. Shouldn't affect how the unit works at all. Can't go more than 2mm looking at it though because in unrestricted mode at full movement you would touch the sensor with any more packing.

This could give enough space to place the rings between the magnet and the e-clip. Would have to be thin rings though. 

[Green Giant]

Screw audio jack into end of stick.  Use right angle audio cable:

That idea has been brought up before, problem is the bottom is dedicated to the big magnet.  To truely do this you would need to come off the side.

I drew up a really bad schematic, but the idea behind seems very sound.

[Kremmit]

This would move the magnet down about 2 mm. Shouldn't affect how the unit works at all.

Since the sensors on the PCB below the magnet measure the strength of the magnetic field, I think moving the magnet 2mm would have quite a profound effect.  I'm pretty sure you can't move, drill, or otherwise modify the magnet in any way.

----------------------------

What would work, is to give up on the idea of wires altogether, just as Wico, Happ, and other top-fire arcade sticks have done.  You need a plunger in that hollow shaft instead.  Now, in other topfires, the plunger just pokes out the bottom and hits a switch; not an option here, due to that pesky magnet again. 

So what you need is a plunger that stops just above the magnet when it's pushed all the way down, and rests a few mm above when it's not being pushed.  Two vertical slots are cut in the bottom of the shaft, 180 degrees apart.  The slots are the same length as the plunger's travel distance.  Attach a cross-member to the bottom of the plunger, that protrudes out of the slots.  A pair of disc-shaped contacts are attached to the shaft between the magnet and the cross-member.  These discs must be mounted so that they can rotate freely around the shaft, and have a soft spring holding them apart.  Wires soldered to the discs can be tied off to the frame of the joystick assembly, with enough slack to allow free movement of the handle and a suitable strain relief to prevent damage due to constant flexing.

I can see it in my head, but I'm not up to the illustration right now.  Hopefully my explanation is clear enough.

[Cornchip]

   Has there ever been a 'quality' set of hi-res closeups done for this stick? I searched the threads a little and came up short. I wish I had one to look at in my hands. The top fire might be more of a possibility than the earlier suggestion of the LED Balltop conversion.


 Cornchip.

[RandyT]

Screw audio jack into end of stick.  Use right angle audio cable:

I think slikstik was the first to do it.

They were the first to offer a product based on the idea, but the idea was presented to them by one of the "old timers" on this board.  A search of the archives shows that SS's original intention for those was rotation restriction until they were turned on to this idea.

Also: Don't put the button on top.  Top fire sucks.  Put the button on the "side/front" of the balltop.

While that might be good specifically for the games using the button, would it not also be more cumbersome for the games that didn't use it?  My thoughts are that it would be, but I'd be interested in hearing opinions on the subject.

RandyT

[whammoed]

While that might be good specifically for the games using the button, would it not also be more cumbersome for the games that didn't use it?  My thoughts are that it would be, but I'd be interested in hearing opinions on the subject.

RandyT

My opinion may already be obvious since i'm the one that suggested it...but I would think it would be much less cumbersome for the games that don't use it if it were mounted on the side/front.  I suppose it may depend on the way you hold the joystick.  I tend to hold a balltop joystick with my hand resting somewhat on the top.  It would be much easier to orient the stick with a button on the side such that i'm not touching the button at all.  I would think using a small/low profile button might make it a non issue anyway.  With top fire, you are left trying to fire with your thumb (ugh) or holding the stick in an awkward way so you can use one of your first two fingers.  There is a reason the tron cocktail stick has the button on the front of the stick.
Or you could use a touch sensor and have a small metal insert in the ball top. (firing this way may not be good for arcade games though?)

(Randy... do you have a link for the thread where the audio jack was discussed originally...I can't find it and would like to link to it when this topic comes up.)

[Popcorrin]

Screw audio jack into end of stick.  Use right angle audio cable:

I mentioned this before and I was thinking that a person could mount the magnet to the bottom of the audio jack.  You would first have to get taller brackets for mounting the pcb, not sure if this would throw the calibration of the stick way out of whack.  Maybe Andy could comment on the feasibility of this.

I always wanted to make a U360 or 49 way with an led lit handle.  A couple of months ago I altered a 49 way joystick to use a super shaft with the plan of getting one of slikstik's illuminated handles.  Then all that crap happened with slikstik so I held off on purchasing the shafts.  
 

[RandyT]

There is a reason the tron cocktail stick has the button on the front of the stick.
Or you could use a touch sensor and have a small metal insert in the ball top. (firing this way may not be good for arcade games though?)

I tend to think that the reason the Tron cocktail stick was made that way was to better approximate the trigger-stick functionality of the larger machine.  A Battlezone cocktail would probably have had one on top. 

And IIRC, the Tron cocktail stick was rotationally restricted, whereas with a normal ball-top, such restriction would probably not be preferable.

(Randy... do you have a link for the thread where the audio jack was discussed originally...I can't find it and would like to link to it when this topic comes up.)

Much of the thread in question was corrupted and post contents were lost in an apparent crash of the forum database.  However, I recall the situation quite well and my recollection is supported by what was left.  The origin of the concept has been verified.

It took more digging than the just using the search feature of the forums

RandyT

[Cornchip]

   I think SlikStik Christian has possibly edited some of those posts in question (why?). I have to admit that I copied the guy.   

 

[whammoed]

I tend to think that the reason the Tron cocktail stick was made that way was to better approximate the trigger-stick functionality of the larger machine.  A Battlezone cocktail would probably have had one on top. 

And IIRC, the Tron cocktail stick was rotationally restricted, whereas with a normal ball-top, such restriction would probably not be preferable.

Yes, no restriction.  That way you can hold the joystick in different ways and still have the fire button where you want it: on the front or on the side.
And you are right...Battlezone cocktail did have a top fire and that is fine for a tank game I suppose.  But when you are trying to mow down spiders and such in Tron, firing with your thumb sucks.

Much of the thread in question was corrupted and post contents were lost in an apparent crash of the forum database.  However, I recall the situation quite well and my recollection is supported by what was left.  The origin of the concept has been verified.

It took more digging than the just using the search feature of the forums

RandyT

So you have a link but don't want to post it? 
Hmmmm.... was it one of "those" threads between you and Christian?    They can get pretty heated.  Guess we won't be seeing those in the future. 

[Xiaou2]

Well, not everyone holds a Balltop from the top.  I, and I know many others hold them
from the side.   A side button would be uncomfortable for non trigger games on a balltop.

 Yet you also make good point, that thumb is slower.

 Games like Robotron may be harder on the hands if the ball didnt rotate freely, due to frictions.

 Anyway... the solution would be to change the ball to a bat like handle - similar to the
cocktail tron mini-sticks.   Restricted in rotation. Button rounded & shaped so as not feel
too awkward when playing other games.

 Still, theres no solution that everyone is going to agree upon.


 For a temp solution, one could have slip-on trigger tops.   Simply slide the things over the balltops
and lock in place.   A wire would come out the bottom front of them, and feed into a hole or stereo-jack
set into the control panel (or cab sides, underside..etc.)

 

[whammoed]

Anyway... the solution would be to change the ball to a bat like handle - similar to the
cocktail tron mini-sticks.   Restricted in rotation. Button rounded & shaped so as not feel
too awkward when playing other games.

Tron stick is not a bat...it just has a very wide "shaft".

The button may or may not make it uncomfortable for some players.  You have the same argument though for players that hold the joystick on top, with a top fire...it may be uncomfortable for them?

I sometimes hold the joy from the side as well, depending on the game, and don't necessarily think it will hinder anything...especially if there is no restriction and I can place the button where I choose.  Really something that needs to be tested in real life I suppose.

[AllisterFiend]

Screw audio jack into end of stick.  Use right angle audio cable:

I think slikstik was the first to do it.

They were the first to offer a product based on the idea, but the idea was presented to them by one of the "old timers" on this board.  A search of the archives shows that SS's original intention for those was rotation restriction until they were turned on to this idea.

Also: Don't put the button on top.  Top fire sucks.  Put the button on the "side/front" of the balltop.

While that might be good specifically for the games using the button, would it not also be more cumbersome for the games that didn't use it?  My thoughts are that it would be, but I'd be interested in hearing opinions on the subject.

RandyT

I've been waiting for top fires for a long time (fingers crossed).  I used them for years when wico made them (the bat handle and the ball top) and I loved them, I had no problems with the button being on top and would love to see some joysticks based off of the old wico styles or even the newer ultra stik 360 bat handle style.   


Allister Fiend

[Havok]

How about a small wireless transmitter, with a button cell mounted in the balltop? Mount the receiver in the base wherever it would not interfere with the joystick operation, or mounting. In fact, using this design, it would be possible to create a kit to retrofit an older U360, or just make it an optional accessory. You could probably hack something together from one of those spy shops that sell miniature transmitters\receivers...

[MinerAl]

Three Ideas:

* Make trigger sleeves.

The button/trigger could be on a plastic sleeve that slides over the shaft, but is rotationally independent of it.  The ball & shaft can spin and twirl, but the sleeve can use a tab that matches a notch in the top plate of the stick (which would force surface mount, maybe) to keep from spinning.  The only trick then is to route the wires out the side of the stick somewhere.

* Could an insulated double shaft (like a phone plug with a shaft and a tip) be used?  Then you could run the button signal down the shaft itself, which would make for easier connection inside the stick.

* Finally, I don't have the paint skills to illustrate this idea, but couldn't there be a stabilizer bar that went from a notch on one side of the inside of the stick, through the shaft?  The notch would need to allow the stabilizer bar to move in and out as well as forward and back.  It would keep the shaft from spinning though.  I'll have to figure out how to illustrate it, but it is similar to a car's U-joint in the drive shaft if it is bent 90°... you could still wiggle either end, but you couldn't spin it.

[LeedsFan]

How about a small wireless transmitter, with a button cell mounted in the balltop? Mount the receiver in the base wherever it would not interfere with the joystick operation, or mounting. In fact, using this design, it would be possible to create a kit to retrofit an older U360, or just make it an optional accessory. You could probably hack something together from one of those spy shops that sell miniature transmitters\receivers...

I never really thought of this at all. But the transmitter would have to be really small. How small can a one button transmitter be? Would have to be a lithium battery type powered one. And how could you get that into the top half of a 35mm ball top? Very interesting idea though. Is this possible?

[Beley]

How about using a magnet inside the shaft that moves up and down when the button is pushed, and using a hall effect sensor the sense the position of the magnet. (see first image)
I am not to sure how much the shaft would shield the magnet from the sensor.

or, as Havok said, use a small wireless transmitter.  but an IR transmitter insted of RF.  with a IR photo detector on the underside of the stick.  (see 2nd image)

[Havok]

How about using a magnet inside the shaft that moves up and down when the button is pushed, and using a hall effect sensor the sense the position of the magnet. (see first image)
I am not to sure how much the shaft would shield the magnet from the sensor.

or, as Havok said, use a small wireless transmitter.  but an IR transmitter insted of RF.  with a IR photo detector on the underside of the stick.  (see 2nd image)

The IR option wouldn't work - they're mostly line of sight. This joystick is not movement restricted, so odds are the transmitter wouldn't be lined up with the receiver. And the hall effect might work - but it has the potential to interfere with the bottom sensor...

[genesim]

Has anyone thought about using a happs flight stick with the ultrastik?

How is the shaft in place on the Ultrastik?   Is it able to be switched out easily?

I know that the Happy heavy duty is skinnier, but I still think something could be rigged.  The main thing that I see is that I don't know how the bottom sensor is attached to the shaft.

This would be great if I could get it to work.  It wouldn't have taken much to get the flight stick attached to the Ultimarc J Stick, but in the end, I didn't think it was worth it...but for all the great things a Ultrastik can do, this might be worth a shot to have it serve 4 way functions as well as going 8 way and having analog Flight gaming..etc.

[genesim]

Hell, the more I think of it, could this also fix the Tron problem by only enabling the far diagonal so as not to accidently hit the 8 way function.   The throw of the Flight stick is short in regualar mode, but with a Ultrastik, this might actually give me the play that I need.  I absolutely hat the stock setup because it is too short and cheap in nature.

[AndyWarne]

Some great ideas here! This thread is what this forum is all about!
I have kicked around most of these ideas before, and a few others. The most feasible is the jack idea and with the magnet mounted on the end of the jack. The distance of the magnet from the PCB is not critical at all, the firmware compensates for it.
I remember thinking the jack was a neat idea when I first saw a SS illuminated handle. Never realised it was not their invention...

[genesim]

Hey when I get some $$ soon, I would like to talk to you Andy about fitting that Flight stick myself.   The only problem I see is the top interface.    The J stick almost fits, and it wouldn't take much to fit it, but the bottom magnet or whatever it is seems to be the problem.  I don't know how the thing works, and I am sure you want to keep the design somewhat hidden, but having the flight stick on a ultrastik would be a dream!!