My ideas for a 2 player control panel, stop me before I do something stupid.

[taz-nz]

Ok I've been using MAME since a complete ROM set fitted on one CD, and been talk about build my own control panel for at least the last 5 years, I think the time has come that I'm finally going to get myself some real controls to game with.



Basic control panel layout

The plan is to have:
Two Happ 49 way joysticks with rotary adaptors.
Two GP-Wiz49 Eco Interfaces
One Happ 2.25" trackball with USB interface or hacked Microsoft Trackball explorer.
Two TurboTwist 2™ Spinners with weights (plus two 5" Mini-Racer™ Steering Wheel)
Six button per player (yellow & blue)
Two player start buttons (white)
Two Coin-Up buttons (black)
Two Admin buttons (black)
Two Pinball buttons (black)

Now I figure the 49 way joysticks with GP-Wiz49 Eco Interfaces with DSR will give me the most flexability for joystick input types in one joystick and from what I understand they are even passable as an analogue joystick to some degree.

Now being one to never make things easy for myself, I'm thinking of going for an optical rotary adaptors hack on the joysticks, with the same basic setup as used for the mechanical rotary hack with most of parts coming straight out of HAPP's catalogue, with only the custom staff extension needing to be machined for the rotary assembly. (I have friend that's a extremely good machinist that will happily make any custom parts I might need)

To interface the optical rotary assembly I'd probably purchase two master version of the TurboTwist spinners, one for each player and attach the rotary sensors as the slaves. The cost saving on the interfaces should cover most of the cost difference for the optical rotary assembly over the mechanical assembly.

Why optical rotary ? From what I understand the mechanical rotary setup ends up being converted to analogue type output by the interface boards anyway, and as there are problems with matching the mechanical setup click for click in game, I'd rather have the more flexible and tuneably optical setup. (and cut down on a few wires while I'm at it)

The player buttons are layed out how I think they'll work best for how I like to play, and the Spinner are located so that, they can be fitted with the Mini-Racer steering wheels and be used for car games like Bad lands and World rally without conflicting with the joysticks.

I'll probably end up using a Microsoft Trackball Explorer, true optical 2" trackball instead of a arcade trackball to save space.

I think the basic layout should work, but I'll value anyones input on my ideas.

[Minwah]

Seems pretty good to me.  Personally tho I would use UltraStik's instead of 49-ways as you can achieve all the same plus true analog.

That said I'm not sure how easy it would be to modify these to have optical rotary capability - probably not that easy as the shaft doesn't protrude through the circuit board.  Someone here might prove me wrong!

[Malenko]

your buttons are crooked, you need 4 pinball buttons (left/right flipper, left/right nudge) , and I dunno how well the spinners will work in that general vicinity. 2 GGG spinners and wheels? you must be loaded

[Lilwolf]

the spinners may get in the way of the 3rd and 6th buttons. 

Also the buttons that you would want to use for the spinner are on the wrong side (assuming your used to stick on left, and buttons on right)

And I strongly recommend buying some cheap wood and trying your ideas out.  (you can also do it with cardboard but you can't test it too thurough.)  But partical board 4x8 sheet is about 4 bucks... try out your ideas for a few days and then cut the good stuff.   I say this because I've redone my 2player fighting control panel like 5 times...and I don't have all the items on it you do

[BobbyG66]

I would those buttons away from the front of the trackball.
You will hit them during GT or bowling games.
I have an exit key up there on mine. It sucks when I am having a good round of golf, then I exit out.

[unclet]

I have never seen 6 buttons in that layout before.  I would recommend having the top red/yellow buttons line up with the bottom red/yellow buttons ....... basically, do not have the top red/yellow buttons shifted over like that.

[LeedsFan]

Your control panel is very similar to my own idea. But I will be having one spinner directly above the trackball, just to keep it central. It should be placed far enough away though so that exuberant spins won't have my hand hitting the spinner top.

I also thought about having 2x spinners like you. But how many games will use them? I love the Atari Super Sprint series of games and it would be really fun to play those with a mate. But how often would that happen? 90% of the time I would be playing alone on my panel. If you play a lot of a certain game to warrant 2x spinners then I say go for it. I decided against it to save costs. I'd certainly move the spinners though from where they are. I'd be inclined to move them towards the top of the panel above the joysticks. At least then the player buttons are in a good place for the right hand to get to. (This means moving the Admin buttons)

I wouldn't have the player buttons staggered like that though. I'd have them placed directly above each other but with the middle pair of the 6 just placed slightly above the others. That's just a personal choice so that as I lay my hand on them my finger tips just about fall right on top. I also put a 7th button in the bottom left where my thumb can easily tap on one. Not many games use 7 buttons but I find it's buttons 4, 5 and 6 which get used the least. It's just how I like to set up certain games for a comfy feel.

I'm definitely getting 2x Ultimarc 360s for my joysticks to get true analogue control. Just another base covered to get maximum game coverage. I always missed playing Star Wars properly on my cab.

I can't comment on the pinball buttons as I don't play those games. But as far as Coin Up buttons and Admin buttons go personally I wouldn't put them in. Are you gonna be putting some nice artwork on your panel? I just think that the less stuff on top of the panel means more artwork to see and just generally looks less cluttered.. You could always put the admin buttons at the sides towards the back. I always use the Player One button as a "shift" to input coins in games.

It's all down to personal taste really and how the panel "feels" to you. There's no real right or wrong way on these little details.

[Malenko]

I always use the Player One button as a "shift" to input coins in games.

great point. though I have buttons in the coin return of my coin doors to register as credits, the shift functions of the IPAC2 are awesome. why have an exit button if you can hold P1 start and tap P2 start to exit?

the hotrod SE (aka neogeo Sf hybrid) layout is the best all around layout in my opinion. Its what I use on my cab and it works fantastically

[LeedsFan]

Love that MK theme there mate. The logos on the buttons are a neat touch.

Here's a pic of how I expect my panel to turn out. The middle buttons may not be as raised as they are here.... it's just a rough outline but it will be close. The spinner is as far up as it can be. The trackball is dead centre because of the artwork I will be using. (Same as Knievel used on Neon Mame). Still toying with the idea of putting in buttons for the spinner. I hope that the player two buttons will be close enough really. Buttons to the right of the spinner will spoil the look I feel, but playability is paramount over everything else.

The panel measures 24" x 12" which may seem a little small. I want the panel to be as compact as possible so that playing games like Smash TV and Robotron don't have the joysticks too far apart.

Hope we aren't hijacking the thread Taz.... just giving you an idea of how close your panel is to my idea and how the differences can affect playability.

[FunWithFire]

I would drop that trackball down a bit. No reason to have it that close to the spinner. Plus it will make using the spinner a bit more comfy.

And Malenko, I would watch having exit being the player 1 and 2 start combo. You could be in the middle of a game and both of you die, only to have the game exit when you both hit start at the same time.

[EwJ]

From your sketch, it looks as though your design wouldn't be quite deep enough to accomodate 49-way's with a rotary hack.  If you decide to go that route, check out fl0yd's page: rotary     rotarytech

The 'rotary click per click in game' problem you were referring to seems to have some solutions now. 
There was a timing issue with the Ultimarc rotary interface that seems to be fixed with a new chip. There's a thread or two on this you can find with a search. 
Groovygamegear has a rotary interface that has (IIRC) adjustable timings.  Also, replacement 49-way grommets if you have a 'squishy' 49-way that gives you problems returning to centre.

[taz-nz]

Personally tho I would use UltraStik's instead of 49-ways as you can achieve all the same plus true analog.

They look like great sticks and a lot of people seem to use them, but rotary is a must have and for me and there's no practical to do it with an Ultrastik.

your buttons are crooked, you need 4 pinball buttons (left/right flipper, left/right nudge) , and I dunno how well the spinners will work in that general vicinity. 2 GGG spinners and wheels? you must be loaded

yeah the button layout is a little weird make sense to me but will probably be mofied to suit in the final product. Good point on the pinball buttons, they were a bit of an after thought and not well thought out it seams, I'll have to see if I have enough spare inputs to add to more. No I'm not loaded, I just like to things once and doing them right.

the spinners may get in the way of the 3rd and 6th buttons. 

Also the buttons that you would want to use for the spinner are on the wrong side (assuming your used to stick on left, and buttons on right)

And I strongly recommend buying some cheap wood and trying your ideas out.  (you can also do it with cardboard but you can't test it too thurough.)  But partical board 4x8 sheet is about 4 bucks... try out your ideas for a few days and then cut the good stuff.   I say this because I've redone my 2player fighting control panel like 5 times...and I don't have all the items on it you do

Yeah the placement of the spinner worries me a little, but until I have them in hand it's hard to calculate clearances, but it seam like the best place to put them to allow me to you them as steering wheels, without getting to much in the way of anything else. I probably do as you say and mock up a few designs once I've got ever thing in hand and see what works, I'm not that big on fighters so if the spinner is a little close it may now bother me that much, most of the games I'm big on a 2 or 3 button games.  Make everything fit is going to be the biggest challange I thing, that why I'm thing of using the Microsoft trackball hack to save space mid control panel.

I would those buttons away from the front of the trackball.
You will hit them during GT or bowling games.
I have an exit key up there on mine. It sucks when I am having a good round of golf, then I exit out.

yeah seen a couple of people say you need to keep everything  above the trackball clear, I haven't played any trackball games in the arcade so I not sure what it's like, but I may move the coin up and player start buttons to the top corners of the control panel and leave the center empty, of course then I have to work out where to put the admin buttons.

I have never seen 6 buttons in that layout before.  I would recommend having the top red/yellow buttons line up with the bottom red/yellow buttons ....... basically, do not have the top red/yellow buttons shifted over like that.

Yeah it's a weard idea, I've never liked the feel of the stacked row buttons in the arcade, this layout seamed logical to me as it's like the offset in the rows of keys on a keyboard, it's basically a 4 button kink down setup (3 fingers and a thumb layout) with two extra buttons tucked underneith to the right, if that make any sense.

LeedsFan (to much to quote) but I like the look of your player button layout, it might work for me, I may grab a couple of extra push buttons so I can try a 7 button layout both standard and your sytle it may work better than the off set 6 button layout I came up with.

As for the spinners I had a single spinner mount near the top center of the control panel on my orginal design, but with the small install size of the Turbo Twists and the option of the mini racer wheels, I decided I had to have a setup that let me use the spinners for racing games as well. The fact that this puts the buttons to the left will is unlike to bother me. (but see where your coming from about only needing one spinner, but I what to me able to play two player on as many games as possible.)

From your sketch, it looks as though your design wouldn't be quite deep enough to accomodate 49-way's with a rotary hack.  If you decide to go that route, check out fl0yd's page: rotary     rotarytech

The 'rotary click per click in game' problem you were referring to seems to have some solutions now. 
There was a timing issue with the Ultimarc rotary interface that seems to be fixed with a new chip. There's a thread or two on this you can find with a search. 
Groovygamegear has a rotary interface that has (IIRC) adjustable timings.  Also, replacement 49-way grommets if you have a 'squishy' 49-way that gives you problems returning to centre.

Yeah your right, I'll need to make the control panel a lot deeper to house the rotary set, the layout has been re draw dozens of time it started out with a couple of 8 way Supers, and I've never adjusted the depth. I have to have another look to see if I can find one of those threads, I did a number of searchs on rotary 49ways and optical rotaries, but few say on track for long and after reading two dozen dead end threads I gave up and start this thread.

Yeah I was plain on getting the GGG 49way Gromments to help with the joystick feel, I was also looking in using there laser cut optical encoder wheels for the Rotary assembly to improve preformance. I like the idea of the clicks that the mechanical setup would give, but I also like the idea of being able to set the rotary sensativaty so the a 1/4 turn gives a 180deg sweep in game, which just would work well with the mechanical setup as far as I can tell.

If anyone knows any do's and dont's about the GGG interfaces I be interested to know them.

[arzoo]

You may want to hold off on purchasing the 49's and the GPWiz49 - Randy (GGG) has some new stuff brewing and (not too start any rumors  ) one possibility could be a new 49 with built-in rotary features!

[TheManuel]

Whatever overall layout you come up with, I do recommend LeedsFan button pattern.  I use basically the same pattern but tailored to my hand size and it works great for NeoGeo and Capcom fighters.  It is more comfortable than the standard Capcom straight button line because it is more erogonomic.  Lay your hand casually in a table and look where your index, middle and ring finger lie.  The don't describe a straight line.  Furthermore the tips of your finger will not form a line parallel to your torso.  Instead, they angle in a little so you might want to give yourself a bit of an angle on the buttons too.  This is the basic premise of those eronomic keyboards.

Use your own hand to mark the location of the buttons and do what's comfortable.
Like somebody else said, playability is paramount.  I am of the form follows function camp when it comes to the control panel.

[u_rebelscum]

...Lay your hand casually in a table and look where your index, middle and ring finger lie.  The don't describe a straight line.

Remember to bend your fingers the same as you'd bend them while playing.  Even if they bend the same, the arch will decrease, closer to straight.  (Of course, if your middle naturally bends the least, the arch will increase.)

Me, i don't know if it's because I type with a standard keyboard, or just that I grew up with straight buttons, but my natural bent finger arch is virtually straight, and nothing close to the arch if my fingers were straight.

Furthermore the tips of your finger will not form a line parallel to your torso.  Instead, they angle in a little so you might want to give yourself a bit of an angle on the buttons too. 

True if the buttons are close to the joystick, but the farther the buttons away from the stick, the less the angle.  Also, how you stand makes a huge difference.  If the left (stick) arm is straight and the right reaching across the body (eg, 24" 2 player CP, but playing P1 alone & standing toward the middle of the CP), the angle is higher.  If vice versa with right arm straight (eg, 24" 2 player CP, but playing P2 alone & standing toward the middle of the CP, OR 24" 2 player CP, playing P1 with someone at P2, standing toward the edge to not bump elbows), the angle is zero.  Other factors include body size (wider=> more angle), arm length (longer => less angle), and height vs CP height aka "the reach-up to lean-forward spectrum of stances".

I'm not saying "never arch nor angle the buttons", but the biggest I'd do would be the neogeo layout, and even that is pushing it for me; I'd probably rotate the A button half way toward straight.  IMO, most arches and or angles I see are far too much for me, but people like them.   But as I hinted above, it depends what feels good to you, not me.

[TheManuel]

I agree with u_rebel_scum.  His comments stress the fact that you should use your own body as a guide.  Envision the height of the control panel and the placement of the stick and buttons and go from there.

[surface tension]

I also put a 7th button in the bottom left where my thumb can easily tap on one. Not many games use 7 buttons but I find it's buttons 4, 5 and 6 which get used the least. It's just how I like to set up certain games for a comfy feel.

Do many people do this? I see that it fits in with the Neo-Geo vibe and would definitely work well for a secondary fire/hyperspace/get-the----fudgesicle----outta-here button. Do you wire it up to be button 7 input and then configure it to your liking depending on which game you're playing? And button one is the one above?

As default, the Neo-Geo layout would place this as the primary button though, right?

[TheManuel]

I am referring to this kind of layout:
     1  2  3
     4  5  6
  7
For NeoGeo games you would want button 7 to be your primary button.
What I did on my panel was wire it directly to button 2.  This way, when playing Mortal Kombat 3, I can use 1,3,4 and 6 for attcks, 5 for blocking and 7 for running which is a prettly similar layout to the original MK control panel, only that the block button is centered among all the attack buttons.
In addition, you also have the standard NeoGeo and CPS-1/2/3 layouts.
If you have a keyboard encoder with excessive inputs, then you can wire that button indvidually.

[solderguy1]

You may want to hold off on purchasing the 49's and the GPWiz49 - Randy (GGG) has some new stuff brewing and (not too start any rumors  ) one possibility could be a new 49 with built-in rotary features!

Some of us can only wait so many months 

[hsstie]

"yeah the button layout is a little weird make sense to me but will probably be mofied to suit in the final product. Good point on the pinball buttons, they were a bit of an after thought and not well thought out it seams, I'll have to see if I have enough spare inputs to add to more. "

One thing i didn't realize at first around here is that you don't need two more inputs for the pinball buttons. You can wire more than one button to an input. Your pinball inputs won't cost you any inputs in your ipac/keywiz. Also this way you can have a dedicated 4 way joystick on your panel without using up any more inputs than just the plain 8 way.