Is selling MAME (commercially) illegal?

[denete]

I just saw an ad on Craigslist for a company that sells "Authentic Arcade Games For The Home and Small Office".  After reading through their information, I noticed that they are essentially selling mame'd cabinets.  They even have their "Multigame Arcade Manual" online that shows they are running Mamewah and references there being 6000 games on the box.

Anyhow, I was just wondering if it was legal to sell this commercially.

Link removed by saint

- David

[Zebidee]

Let me put it this way.

What they are doing is not more illegal than the multi-game jamma boards that have 400 or 1000 odd games in them.

Those 1000 in one jamma boards are actually computers with mobos, video cards & hard disks running some hacked version of mame on them.  We seem to legally tolerate them quite happily, and they are sold on ebay by the zillion, despite this.

I've tried tracking the multi-game PCB companies down before - they are usually fly-by-night companies with a Chinese address.  Each board seems to have a different manufacturer, who moves around a bit it seems.

Might be best to ask if classicgaming is actually providing a useful service?

[leapinlew]

I just saw an ad on Craigslist for a company that sells "Authentic Arcade Games For The Home and Small Office".  After reading through their information, I noticed that they are essentially selling mame'd cabinets.  They even have their "Multigame Arcade Manual" online that shows they are running Mamewah and references there being 6000 games on the box.

Anyhow, I was just wondering if it was legal to sell this commercially.

Link removed by saint

- David

yes

[bfauska]

Lew,

As cut and dry as your answer seems on the surface, it is actually very vague.  Are you answering the question in the post title, or the question at the end of the original post?  I believe I know the answer, but some may not.

[Zebidee]

Truth is, there may be more than one right answer.  Especially when you consider the multijurisdictional aspects of it, and the different ways in which it may arise.  For example, the US has different legal and policy approaches to the fundamental issues involved than Australia does.

Personally, I prefer the Aussie approach as it is a more technologically mature approach to management of copyright matters in a modern context.

Anyway, I guess what I'm getting at is that the issue has a habit of bringing out black and white points of view from people, which is the wrong way to approach an issue that is actually grey, evolving and very complex. 

That's what bfauska was trying to say, I think

[bfauska]

I just saw an ad on Craigslist for a company that sells "Authentic Arcade Games For The Home and Small Office".  After reading through their information, I noticed that they are essentially selling mame'd cabinets.  They even have their "Multigame Arcade Manual" online that shows they are running Mamewah and references there being 6000 games on the box.

Anyhow, I was just wondering if it was legal to sell this commercially.

Link removed by saint

- David

No, I was saying that the thread title is "Is selling MAME illegal?" and the question in the thread was "I was just wondering if it was legal to sell this commercially."

Was Lew saying Yes it is illegal, or yes it is legal?

[Zebidee]

Was Lew saying Yes it is illegal, or yes it is legal?

I realise that I underestimated Lew's wisdom.

The correct answer to your question, in typical Winnie-the-Pooh logic, is indeed "YES"

[ptistheboss]

Very Illegal. Especially if they are selling a "Golden Tee" without actual Golden Tee Boards.

[Ed_McCarron]

Why does this pop up at least once a week?

It violates MAMES license.

It violates the coprights of any rom included.  Lets assume the buyer doesn't own all the boards.

[Havok]

Why does this pop up at least once a week?

Because that Search button is hidden, I tell ya!

[saint]

It's both illegal and against the MAME distribution license.

[somunny]

Very Illegal. Especially if they are selling a "Golden Tee" without actual Golden Tee Boards.

That's true.  Golden Tee is the illegalest game to sell.

[ChadTower]

Why does this pop up at least once a week?

It seems like it's once a day of late.

[whatzcrackn]

 

Who cares?

[saint]

Me.

Rules: http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html

BYOAC & MAME: http://arcadecontrols.com/BYOAC-and-MAME.shtml

[heffe2001]

Why does this pop up at least once a week?

Because that Search button is hidden, I tell ya!

Maybe need to make the search button 2x it's size now

[Ed_McCarron]

Why does this pop up at least once a week?

Because that Search button is hidden, I tell ya!

Maybe need to make the search button 2x it's size now

Tried clicking the big search button.  It didn't work.  Maybe thats why noone uses it.

[ChadTower]

Make a button that says "FREE PORN" and attach it to the logout function.

[superart]

edit

[polaris]

Is it illegal if someone has a cabinet holding a computer with Mame/games, but makes it clear that he is only selling the cabinet and not the games themselves?

kinda the same as selling needles with free heroin thrown in

[saint]

Is it illegal if someone has a cabinet holding a computer with Mame/games, but makes it clear that he is only selling the cabinet and not the games themselves?

Yes, 100% completely illegal. Also a load of hooey

[heffe2001]

But a cab with everything in it to run mame, but no mame/roms/etc installed would be ok?  I've also noticed several sellers doing the same on Craigs, and we've got a multi-game machine at a local pizza place near where I live that I'm fairly certain isn't legal either (it's not mame as far as I can tell, but the game selection is huge on it, probalby one of the multi-boards in it?).

[polaris]

But a cab with everything in it to run mame, but no mame/roms/etc installed would be ok?

yes cos that would just be a computer, however i believe the mame devs would not want mame mentioned particularly in the title of the sale

[Zebidee]

...we've got a multi-game machine at a local pizza place near where I live that I'm fairly certain isn't legal either (it's not mame as far as I can tell, but the game selection is huge on it, probalby one of the multi-boards in it?).

It might not look like mame, but it is.  An earlier version stripped down, run on a skeleton linux or even dos based system.  You can do the same with mame yourself if you try hard enough.  It might not look like a PC in there, but it really is.

IMHO - ALL those multi-boards, at least anything more than about 48-in-1, are running mame code illegally.

Anyone sense a double-standard ?? 

[CheffoJeffo]

Anyone sense a double-standard ?? 

Not really -- we have had that discussion eleventy times before as well and saint has asked us not to discuss where to find those boards.

Someone attempting to profit by using MAME without the blessing of the MAMEdevs. This can take place by someone selling MAME by itself (no bearing on relationships with BYOAC), or by someone selling a cabinet or set of desktop arcade controls with MAME (MAMEdevs have a policy for handling this, and if followed there is no issue), using MAME in a commercial setting (simply not allowed), or by embedding the MAME software in a hardware product such as the xxx-in-1 Jamma boards (unlicensed, likely illegal, and against MAMEdev wishes).

[Zebidee]

Not really -- we have had that discussion eleventy times before as well and saint has asked us not to discuss where to find those boards.

So .... i shouldn't mention the fact that those boards are all over ebay?

[Zebidee]

So .... i shouldn't mention the fact that those boards are all over ebay?

Ooops.  Guess the cat's out of the bag now. [sarcastic tone]

[CheffoJeffo]

Not really -- we have had that discussion eleventy times before as well and saint has asked us not to discuss where to find those boards.

So .... i shouldn't mention the fact that those boards are all over <redacted>?

No more than you should mention that ROMS are all over particular websites.

Anybody in the know knows where to get these things, and there are forums that discuss them openly, but saint has asked that we not do that.

To do otherwise, and then to openly mock about it is just disrespectful and, IMPO, worthy deserving of a Boonga.

[Zebidee]

Come on now Cheffo, that is not what this is talking about and trying to tar me with that brush is, in itself, unworthy.  Boonga is not an issue.

To stop me, or anyone else, talking about issues like this on a public forum would at best be limiting free speech (I think there is something in the US constitution about that), or at worst pandering to the interests of those that sell such multi-game machines (eg ebay and the companies that make/sell them).

I may be nieve, but I don't think that Saint is like that.

[CheffoJeffo]

Come on now Cheffo, that is not what this is talking about and trying to tar me with that brush is, in itself, unworthy.  Boonga is not an issue.

To stop me, or anyone else, talking about issues like this on a public forum would at best be limiting free speech (I think there is something in the US constitution about that), or at worst pandering to the interests of those that sell such multi-game machines (eg ebay and the companies that make/sell them).

I may be nieve, but I don't think that Saint is like that.

Perhaps it is perception then ...

To be specific, as I thought I was, saint asked us not to discuss WHERE to purchase  xxx-in-1 boards. Discussion about the legality, etc. was not prohibited in any way. Some guidelines for not antagonizing the MAMEDevs were posted, along with the long-standing rules not to link to or mention how to obtain illegal items.

Maybe I was wrong, but I thought you responded to my remarks with an explicit instruction as to WHERE to get the boards ... and then you mocked.

As for the free speech argument, this is a private forum (if you want to quote the US Consitution, you should probably try to understand its' applications) and the rules are saint's.

And, nope, I don't for a second think he would or should ban open discussion of the legalities or moral issues, etc.

He did ask us not to mention WHERE to buy the MAME-based boards. That is what I pointed out when you cried double-standard and that is what you responded to so mockingly.

I have no problem with general discussion and know full well where to get these boards (and even who has the best prices for those of us in NA ... and it ain't eBay) ... but saint made a request that we not post about where to get these things.

I trust the distinction is now sufficiently clear.

 

[Zebidee]

Sorry to be difficult. But ...

Mentioning ebay as a marketplace is hardly mentioning a location as it is a ubiquitous marketplace.  Stating that, for example, John Does' shop in LA, Cal. sells them would be a different story.

The other aspect to this is that ebay policies have a macro-scale effect, so this is why I want to discuss the issue of illegal sale of emulators on this popular and world-wide marketplace.  That is, policies adopted by ebay can influence worldwide legal standards.

BTW, this is a public forum even if the servers are privately owned and controlled.

And the free speech argument is an ethical one, not a legal one, so don't start consititutional stuff at me.  It ain't my constitution anyway.

[saint]

What Cheffo said

[Onyx_PghPA]

I'd have to say it's definitely illegal, considering a quick peek at MAME's distribution license gives us this:

" Redistribution and use of this code or any derivative works are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

    * Redistributions may not be sold, nor may they be used in a commercial product or activity."

Of course, if for some reason MAME wasn't copyrighted...

"Copyright © 1997-2007, Nicola Salmoria and the MAME team
All rights reserved."

...ah, never mind!  :-)


Onyx

[Zebidee]

What Cheffo said

Well, I guess as you are the boss then

the political decision would be for me to get off my soap box and go home.     

cheers guys

[CheffoJeffo]

The other aspect to this is that ebay policies have a macro-scale effect, so this is why I want to discuss the issue of illegal sale of emulators on this popular and world-wide marketplace.  That is, policies adopted by ebay can influence worldwide legal standards.

Interesting thought and I would love to hear the discussion, although since eBay's TOS specifically prohibits the sale of these items and eBay regularly removes them (but I note is far from perfect in that regard), I'm not sure what the influence on legal standards would be. I do note that some governments are starting to hold eBay more accountable -- both the Canadian and US tax authorities are requiring eBay to release financial information about sellers to ensure compliance with tax requirements.

EDIT: My commentary about the TOS and legality applies to my North American experience only. Other jurisdictions may vary.

BTW, this is a public forum even if the servers are privately owned and controlled.

Not really -- posting here is a privilege, not a right.

And the free speech argument is an ethical one, not a legal one, so don't start consititutional stuff at me.  It ain't my constitution anyway.

Um, you cited the US Constitution and I simply noted that it didn't apply in the context that you suggested. It ain't my constitution either. 

[saint]

What Cheffo said

Well, I guess as you are the boss then

the political decision would be for me to get off my soap box and go home.     

cheers guys

I don't think it's terribly burdensome to ask that people not post links on where to get these things. Talk about them until you're blue in the face, fine...

[FrizzleFried]

Not really -- we have had that discussion eleventy times before as well and saint has asked us not to discuss where to find those boards.

So .... i shouldn't mention the fact that those boards are all over ebay?

No so much anymore...they have been taking them down.  Aussies are still selling them though.

[FrizzleFried]

Come on now Cheffo, that is not what this is talking about and trying to tar me with that brush is, in itself, unworthy.  Boonga is not an issue.

To stop me, or anyone else, talking about issues like this on a public forum would at best be limiting free speech (I think there is something in the US constitution about that), or at worst pandering to the interests of those that sell such multi-game machines (eg ebay and the companies that make/sell them).

I may be nieve, but I don't think that Saint is like that.

Your first mistake here is that this IS NOT A PUBLIC FORUM but rather a PRIVATELY OWNED FORUM run by a man who has decided he is going to respect MAMEDevs wishes.  If you don't like the rules he has set forth in HIS SANDBOX,  don't let the door-knob hit you where the good lord split you...

[CheffoJeffo]

No so much anymore...they have been taking them down.  Aussies are still selling them though.

In retrospect, perhaps this was the point that zebidee was trying to make -- for me, I see these boards pulled from eBay all the time the same way I see cabinets with MAME and ROMS pulled. Maybe he is not seeing that kind of consistency where he is and THAT is the double standard that he is talking about (where I took his statement to be referring to BYOAC and his sarcasm at being directed at saint's request).

 

[Zebidee]

No so much anymore...they have been taking them down.  Aussies are still selling them though.

In retrospect, perhaps this was the point that zebidee was trying to make -- for me, I see these boards pulled from eBay all the time the same way I see cabinets with MAME and ROMS pulled. Maybe he is not seeing that kind of consistency where he is and THAT is the double standard that he is talking about (where I took his statement to be referring to BYOAC and his sarcasm at being directed at saint's request).

 

Cheffo is spot on - thanks for making the effort to understand.   

Now, regarding some other people who are upset about a different issue.  This forum is privately owned, but it is still used to broadcast in a public medium (the Internet).  That is what makes it public.  In the same way as the New York Times is a medium for public communication, even though it is privately owned.