Working on my 3 trackball layout

[Avrus]

The control panel is definitely tricky.  Every time I lay something in a location I'm finding another fault with it.

My buddy came up with this mockup, but when I laid it out it looks like th 4 way gets in the way of the center trackball, and the trackballs are too close to the cab and where the glass will be.

I think the trackballs will have to be at the bottom and the joysticks in the middle.

How much room do I need reasonably for the balls, about 11" of travel before you smoke a joystick?

How likely am I to hit buttons, if it's a highball trackball?

[gurnie]

Are the three trackballs for rampage?  Just curiouse.

Do you have roomates / family members/friend that live with you / visit often, and that's why you have a 4 player / 3 trackball set-up?

I think for all the devices, it's pretty organized but why the multi buttons at the top.  Why no have a shift button and then use the buttons already on your panel to control your menu/exit/tab/ect.

If some of the buttons are for coin inputs, have you thought about putting a coin door in your cabinet?

What kind of arcade are you assembling this onto?

[Avrus]

Are the three trackballs for rampage?  Just curiouse.

Do you have roomates / family members/friend that live with you / visit often, and that's why you have a 4 player / 3 trackball set-up?

I think for all the devices, it's pretty organized but why the multi buttons at the top.  Why no have a shift button and then use the buttons already on your panel to control your menu/exit/tab/ect.

If some of the buttons are for coin inputs, have you thought about putting a coin door in your cabinet?

What kind of arcade are you assembling this onto?

Ignore the buttons at the top.  There's going to be a coin button and a start button for each of the players, and 4 or so admin buttons that I'm going to mount either on the side, or some where else not on the control panel.  Also ignore the button layout next to the trackballs because I'm likely just going to use the buttons that are already in place for the 4 players.

The trackballs are for rampart, shooting games, marble madness, etc.

Yes, I have a 4 player setup because I frequently have poker games and multiple friends coming over and there will consistently be more than 2 people playing it.  I'm not so much posting to rehash my control panel discussion as I'm at the control panel build stage, not the planning stage.

Check out my project page if you want to get a better sense of my build so far.

At this point I'm looking for some advice on the best way to lay it out.

[Apollo]

To be honest I think you're over stretching. I think you should just build your four player panel minus trackballs, make it good and then start on your next control panel or even another cabinet with trackballs.

[Avrus]

To be honest I think you're over stretching. I think you should just build your four player panel minus trackballs, make it good and then start on your next control panel or even another cabinet with trackballs.

Well I'm going forward with the 3 trackballs as I ordered them quite some time ago, and ordered the Mini-Pacs to support them. 

I'm more so looking for some guidance on layout, not to enter into a friendly debate about my control panel choices.  I hope I don't seem snotty, I just don't want to have to spend 20 posts defending my choice in control panels.  So far the two replies have been questioning my controls rather than attempting to provide help.   

If no one has any advice to offer I'm sure I can just tough it out on my own, and post my results after the fact for others to use.   

[ids]

I've actually got 4 trackballs sitting around waiting for me to build a CP (or two).  I'd be very interested in seeing your results, and knowing how gameplay is.

[Avrus]

I've actually got 4 trackballs sitting around waiting for me to build a CP (or two).  I'd be very interested in seeing your results, and knowing how gameplay is.

Well I've tried to chronicle with as much detail as possible for the next person.  Looks like I'm spending the next few days figuring out a good control panel layout.

[gurnie]

i think i see a panel with 2 trackballs tops, and even that seems rare.  I can't think of a cabinet that uses over two, but i am sure there is something out there.

What size trackballs are you using? 
Are you planning on putting th mounting plates ontop of the panel or under?

Maybe (if you haven't ordered parts yet) you can use 2 1/4" trackballs and mount the plates under.  I think that'll give it a cleaner look personally.

[shardian]

I think it is a bad idea to have to reach over top of all the other controls to get to the trackball. That is a very awkward way to play, and IMO would not be an enjoyable arcade experience.
I would recommend ditching one of the trackballs, then putting the other two in between the sets of player controls and offset towards the edge of the control panel. There just isn't a comfortable way to fit 4 players and 3 trackballs on a panel. Two players and three trackballs? Yes. 4 player and 2 trackballs? Yes. 4 and 3? No.

If you are hell bent on using all three, then you will just have to accept the fact that there is not a way to comfortably, or even remotely ergonomically fit all of those controls on one panel.

[javeryh]

I recommend building two interchangable panels.  One with the standard controls and one with the three trackballs.  I just don't think there's a comfortable way to cram it all in one panel. 

[FunWithFire]

I jammed a lot of your stuff together, and I just cut and pasted your image so it looks like crap, but I think you can actually reach most of the items fairly easily like this. The only thing was the two spinners. Couldn't really find an easily accessible spot for them. You can probably shorten up the CP a bit if you wanted to as well.

[Neverending Project]

How much room do I need reasonably for the balls, about 11" of travel before you smoke a joystick?

... mmmmust resist... can't say.... don't do it.... 

[Avrus]

How much room do I need reasonably for the balls, about 11" of travel before you smoke a joystick?

... mmmmust resist... can't say.... don't do it.... 

Yes yes I know.  Everyone is all about 'don't do' something.  I don't intend to do it poorly, or haphazardly.  There are tons of projects on here from people who broke the 'mould' by doing things that others didn't want to attempt.

[Neverending Project]

Hrmmm... I wasn't saying don't do the trackball layout. I was trying to say don't do it to myself... to make a rude comment on your previous choice of wording. Something about room for the balls and smoking a joystick. You see what I mean?

Go for the trackball layout! It's your cab, isn't it?

[polaris]

ok maybe a bit of a whacky idea this but bear with me.
one trackball in the middle with a clean run ahead of it, for golden tee etc.
then how about building two add on boxes with trackballs that sit above pl1 and pl2 buttons , install them for the tb games take them off when not wanted.
does that make sense at all , ill try n draw it but im rubbish with those arty programs.
 

[leapinlew]

How much room do I need reasonably for the balls, about 11" of travel before you smoke a joystick?

... mmmmust resist... can't say.... don't do it.... 

Yes yes I know.  Everyone is all about 'don't do' something.  I don't intend to do it poorly, or haphazardly.  There are tons of projects on here from people who broke the 'mould' by doing things that others didn't want to attempt.

Don't be offended. These people are trying to provide you with good feedback - not negative feedback on a different design. Many of us have rebuilt control panels because we tried something different just to realize why some things are built the way they are.

[unclet]

Funny .... I was thinking similiarly to "polaris" ...... however, I would recommend have two pullout drawers in the front of your cabinet which each hold one trackball.    Kind of like having a pull-out keyboard drawer, but instead (or in addition to) have one left pull-out drawer for the left trackball and one right pull-out drawer for the right trackball.

Not sure what what "rampart" is ..... but I would not think you would really need to spin the trackballs like you do for Golden Tee golf games.  If my assumption is correct, then you would not need to have a lot of room for "follow-through" for the left/right trackballs so pulling them out of a drawer to use might work well.

Now, if you move center trackball to the front of the control panel so you can play Golden Tee properly, and have the other two trackballs in a pull-out drawer, then this should also reduce the depth of your control panel a lot as well .... making it look less like a monster.

PS:  If you do not like the pull-out drawer idea, then perhaps having some sort of flip-up wings attached to the side of the control panel would work better.

Oh yeah ..... my main recommendation would be not to mount the trackballs behind the joysticks (as you currently have in your drawing) since they would be very annoying to use (in my opinion) ......

[BULL]

how about somthing like this. I have my  P3 and P4 on the sides and it works great for me, they are standing at about 30* angle from the monitor.

[Avrus]

how about somthing like this. I have my  P3 and P4 on the sides and it works great for me, they are standing at about 30* angle from the monitor.

But how wide is that CP?  21" just for the trackballs, that has to be 55"+ wide is it not?

Funny .... I was thinking similiarly to "polaris" ...... however, I would recommend have two pullout drawers in the front of your cabinet which each hold one trackball.    Kind of like having a pull-out keyboard drawer, but instead (or in addition to) have one left pull-out drawer for the left trackball and one right pull-out drawer for the right trackball.

That's an intriguing concept.  Could put it on rails so it slides out and then is flush when not in use.  I'll have to explore that.

Not sure what what "rampart" is ..... but I would not think you would really need to spin the trackballs like you do for Golden Tee golf games.  If my assumption is correct, then you would not need to have a lot of room for "follow-through" for the left/right trackballs so pulling them out of a drawer to use might work well.

Only one of the greatest trackball games of all time.  You create a castle, place cannons and then defend your castle against invaders and other players.  So much fun.

[DaveMMR]

I had to do some research and my suspicions were right: there was a joystick version of Rampart - albeit only a two player version (the 3-player version was trackballs).  I've never really tried it out with joysticks in MAME or whatever so I can't attest to how it affects playability. 

I like how Bull (haha, now you have me thinking of Night Court), implemented your idea.  The outer players and outer trackballs can be sort of "out of the way" in as much as they don't need to to be high on the priority list of assigning space to controls.  Start with a standard two player layout with trackball in the middle, and go a few inches to the left/right, placing the other balls below the joystick (these will not be used for Golden Tee, so you don't need "vertical swing space").   

As for the width... let me put it this way: I fit the standard 2-player, 6-button layout on a 25"  panel.   I think with the extra mounting plates and a little extra space, you can keep the width under 40" (less if you use 2-1/4" balls and  even less still if you forgo mounting plates - it can be done, just a little more work). 

I'm curious to see how this comes out.   Good luck.

[BULL]

I don´t know, I dont have TBs on mine.
But it should be a bit smaller than the one in your first post, both in with and dept, since all I´ve done is cut and paste from that one. Swapped the TBs with the 4-way, P4 and P3 controls.
If you don´t use mounting plates for the TBs it doesn´t have to be wider than 35"-37".

BULL


DaveMMR thats what I was thinking, the only problem with P3 and P4 on the sides is if you have a small monitor, but other than that it works just fine.

[Avrus]

I had to do some research and my suspicions were right: there was a joystick version of the cabinet - albeit only a two player version (the 3-player version was trackballs).  I've never really tried it out with joysticks in MAME or whatever so I can't attest to how it affects playability. 

Yup, the joystick version of the game was akin to playing Donkey Kong with an 8 way and no restrictor.

Actually it was worse than that.

It was more like trying to play Sinistar with a non-analogue stick.  Awful, just awful.

[leapinlew]

I had to do some research and my suspicions were right: there was a joystick version of the cabinet - albeit only a two player version (the 3-player version was trackballs).  I've never really tried it out with joysticks in MAME or whatever so I can't attest to how it affects playability. 

Yup, the joystick version of the game was akin to playing Donkey Kong with an 8 way and no restrictor.

Actually it was worse than that.

It was more like trying to play Sinistar with a non-analogue stick.  Awful, just awful.

The nintendo version of the game is very playable with a game pad. Arcade joystick was terrible.

[superbigjay]

Hello Avrus,

I'm not a big fan of huge CP, but it's your CP.

here's the same idea  as Bull with P3/P4 facind each other (on both side of the CP).
I just did a few cut n paste, so the dimensions should be ok...

I'm not sure it this would be comfortable for all players, but it might gives you more idea on how to layout your stuff...

PS:
- if you need more space, you could move the mouse buttons above the trackball instead of the side
- I just left the spinner in the middle. (that's why they're off center)

Jay 

[superbigjay]

BTW, quick question:

3 trackball, 2 spinners?

Does the OS support that many tracking device?

[Avrus]

BTW, quick question:

3 trackball, 2 spinners?

Does the OS support that many tracking device?

Sure thing.  Running it all through 3 MiniPac's. 

[leapinlew]

Since 3 trackballs screams rampart - I would theme the cabinet some mix of marble madness and rampart. I would probably go with Javerys Suggestion and do an interchangeable control panel. That way the trackballs could be front and center during trackball games.

[Avrus]

Since 3 trackballs screams rampart - I would theme the cabinet some mix of marble madness and rampart. I would probably go with Javerys Suggestion and do an interchangeable control panel. That way the trackballs could be front and center during trackball games.

Yah I wanted to avoid interchangeable if possible.  I'm going to try a layout with the #1 trackball front and center similar to the suggested layout above and see how it works.

[Avrus]

Having a physical layout board makes things so much easier.

Everything seems accessible, no controls seem to be blocked by arm movement.  Spinners at the top makes them accessable but tidy.

[Avrus]

My only concern is the 4way next to Player 1.  So I could relocate it up and that seems to still be neat and accessable.

[superbigjay]

hello,
on your last trial, P3 and P4 joystick vs buttons position seems a bit weird.
Does it seem comfortable to play?

Also, I don't remember if you already have your joysticks, but if you don't,
it might be a good thing to have a top-switchable 8/4 way for P1 (or an U360). 
you could free some space...

Jay 

[Avrus]

hello,
on your last trial, P3 and P4 joystick vs buttons position seems a bit weird.
Does it seem comfortable to play?

Also, I don't remember if you already have your joysticks, but if you don't,
it might be a good thing to have a top-switchable 8/4 way for P1 (or an U360). 
you could free some space...

Jay 

With the physical layout it did.  It looks odd on paper, but when you're on an angle you realize your left arm protrudes more than your right (for P3) so the buttons need to be at a slight angle and closer.  The converse is true of P4.  I'm doing a full mock up mount tomorrow and will try it out over a few days.

Well when I was originally looking at sticks, I wanted something with a physical restricting plate for 4 way action.  The only choices were to lift the CP and move the plate each and every time, go with top switching (which is visible) or go with a U360 (which I'm not sold on for fighting games).

So in the end I settled on a plate restricted 4 way and a normal 8 way.  We'll see if I come to regret that decision.   

[Xiaou2]

The biggest problems with a setup like that are Reach (too far = tired quickly)
and Obstacles.   (when you wail on the TB and slam into a joystick, monitor glass...etc.)


 My suggestion,  is to make a pull out drawer Control Panel that rests under the
main control panel.    Make is sturdy with heavy duty guide rails/supports... and
a locking mechanism.   

 Since Trackballs are not that deep,  the drawer depth wont need to be huge,
and the CP drawer height shouldnt be too bad at all.
(just make sure you leave maybe 1.5ft distance from the center of the
trackball to the edge of the cabinet.  So that if you roll very hard - you
wont slam your hand into the cab front)

 
 The other option,  is to mount the TB's upside down on the far egde...
then, simply lift the control panel up, rotate it 180, and set it back down.
(youll have to make sure not to twist the cables too much tho)

 And finally,  one could make a vertically rotating double sided control
panel.

 
 As said, I dont think you will be very happy when you have to
over-extend your arms to play for any durration over 5min.  And
the lack of room to really wail it, also will present problems for
certain games like MM where you need to go as fast as possible.

 Hope these ideas help.

[Avrus]

Well I finalized my layout, and you can click on my project link to see the results.

[brandon]

How much room do I need reasonably for the balls, about 11" of travel before you smoke a joystick?

... mmmmust resist... can't say.... don't do it.... 

cant say what? how important it is for ample room around your balls? ESPECIALLY, if you have the rare 3rd one?     There... I said it for you

[ids]

Any updates?

[Avrus]

Any updates?

It's funny that you bumped it this evening, I'm in the process of uploading pictures and posting an update to the project thread.

[ids]

Was curious, as I've finally ordered all the parts i need and have started playing with layouts.  Seems to me, deciding which parts and how to lay them out is really difficult - so many options, so many games...!

[FrizzleFried]

I am guessing you got the OPTI version of the mini pac?

BTW: The only other game I know of that uses 3 trackballs is Ataxx...

[Avrus]

I am guessing you got the OPTI version of the mini pac?

BTW: The only other game I know of that uses 3 trackballs is Ataxx...

Yup.  And the trackballs will double for shooting games as well.  But my friends and I had a very serious rampart addiction going on.