Help with CP design

[XyloSesame]

After five years of MAME with a keyboard, mouse, and gamepad (0.61 was my first), I'm finally taking the plunge and building a cab. 'Bout time.

I need advice and/or help designing the FrankenPanel. I'd like to have a versatile 2-player CP with a dedicated 4-way, a spinner, and a TB. After finding inspiration in both panels posted here and commercially available models, this is what I've come up with for a starting point. Before building a mock-up, though, I have a few questions...

I've used templates and schemes found on the board for dimensioning, however, the clustered buttons look awfully close to one another. Should I space the buttons further apart for more for comfortable play?

Also, I've included a full Asteroids button layout above the TB; will the placement of this get in the way of the TB or spinner?

Any suggestions?

Thanks...

[Kajoq]

I like the overall design,  But I have a couple minor suggestions you may or may not like.  The only things I would say are to move the P1 and P2 buttons slightly further away from the joysticks, and up a little bit.  For P2 you might have to scoot the stick a little to the left to accomplish it.
In the current configuration it looks like it will be somewhat awkward to play any SNK games, and for really crazy joystick heavy fighters (if you run a PS2 for some MVC2 or something)  The buttons being that close to the stick might be a little problematic.

Overall thats a great start.  What program are you using to illustrate that? All my new buttons came in so its about time for me to build a new control panel to replace the crappy one that came on the cab.  I've got a good idea of how i'm gonna lay it out, but would be nice to have a good to-scale graphic to manipulate

[ids]

somebody here has never played robotron

[severdhed]

looks like a pretty good layout...here are my suggestions.

i would consider creating a little more space between the buttons and sticks, and also moving the buttons towards the back of the panel a little.  I dont know what your spacing is like on there, but my buttons are 1.5" apart (measured from the centers of the holes)  that keeps them close enough that the feel good, but still enough room to get the button nuts on the back side of them. 

when placing joysticks, don't forget to take into account the switches and wires that will attach to them.  for instance, your player 1 stick is almost directly against the left side of the control panel box.  if you keep it there, you will probably have to route out part of the side so that the switch and wires will fit.  the joystick templates in those design programs don't show the switches, so it looks like you can put things closer to the sticks than you actually can.  this will also come into play with your other sticks as well.  the center of my joystick hole to the center of my first button hole are 3 inches apart, it is a nice distance and leaves enough room for everything

other than that, it looks pretty nice

[XyloSesame]

What program are you using to illustrate that?

I'm using Visio to dimension and Sketchup to model. Check out the Wiki entry http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/SketchUp_Tips

somebody here has never played robotron

Not with a keyboard and mouse, that's for sure... One of the many reasons I'm (finally) building. Two 8-ways are what I need for a single-player game, right?

I dont know what your spacing is like on there, but my buttons are 1.5" apart (measured from the centers of the holes)  that keeps them close enough that the feel good, but still enough room to get the button nuts on the back side of them. 

when placing joysticks, don't forget to take into account the switches and wires that will attach to them.

Thanks for the suggestions, I do need to move my sticks and, possibly, the spinner, to allow for wiring. I think we must have used similar sources for our buttons/joystick configs; my buttons are 1.5" apart, and my stick is 3" from the closest button.

[ids]

Yes, for robotron, a pair of 8-ways and bobzuruncle.  I just mentioned it cause your original design had such a large gap between the two sticks that I would think robotron would be awkward.  But I haven't built my CP yet, and so could be wrong.

Good luck.

[XyloSesame]

I just mentioned it cause your original design had such a large gap between the two sticks that I would think robotron would be awkward.

I wondered about that, too. There is a 22" spread from center to center on the sticks. Standing at my desk playing Air Robotron with two pencils 22" apart feels fairly comfortable... I guess I'll have to wait for gameplay to have a true test.

Attached are revised Sketchups of the panel with the sticks moved 3/4" from the sides to allow for wiring. There's little-to-no visible difference from a top view, but it makes all the difference underneath.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

[Katana Man]

Just curious, is there a reason for the 6 buttons not to be aligned with eachother?  It's my understanding that most arcades with 6 buttons are squared up.

BTW, good job with setting the spinner off to the right.  You'd be surprised how many people design panels with the spinner right in front of the trackball!  That pretty much ruins playing games golfing and bowling, etc.

[Kajoq]

A lot of fighter players like the buttons in that angled orientation as its a little more ergonomic, and fits the different lengths of each finger a little better.
Heres a picture of my HRAP that has a layout similar to his.  I'm building my control panel just like it (with all sanwa parts)  Its the smoothest sick ever.

[XyloSesame]

A lot of fighter players like the buttons in that angled orientation

Thanks, Kajoq, that's one of the reasons I've angled mine. I figure it will play well for both fighter and non in the arched layout.



I've got another design related question for everyone - how important is easy access to a CP within a cab? I've noticed most scratch-builds have a hinged CP for access. Would it be foolish to build a CP so integrated into a cab that you would need tools to get inside?

[Kajoq]

I would definitely recommend hinging it,  It shouldn't be very hard and will save you a lot of headaches.

I know with my current cab theres been a couple times i've had to pop open the Control panel to mess with the crappy concave HAPP buttons on it because they've jammed or something.  Not to mention if you ever have a button die, it will make changing it a 2 minute or less swap instead of 15-20 minutes of dealing with a screwdriver

[DaveMMR]

Nice looking panel Prince (hehe - not making fun, I happen to think Prince is awesome).  If you're itching to cut down on width, you can actually move those joystick/button sets a tad closer inside if you wanted to.  Some people like to be "spaced apart" on two player games, but I've got a 25" CP with standard SF button layout and it fits 2 people just fine (it has a trackball too - though it's more cramped than some may like).  That's not a recommendation, it's just a "you can do it if you need to" tip.   (Do think about it if your panel ends up much wider than the main body of the cabinet though.)

Do make sure those "side buttons" won't get in the way of your main buttons underneath the panel.   The assembly is a few inches in length (plus microswitches and wires) and may cause space conflict.  Make sure you take that into account.  "Eyeballing" it a bit, it seems to be okay.

I don't think your "Asteroid" button layout will get in the way of the TB, btw.

Things like admin buttons and number of unique controls on a panel are all personal preference - as long as it's laid out nicely and not overly confusing (I do think Admin buttons should be kept to a bare minimum however since people tend to start messing things up).  With that said, I think your panel looks great.  Test 'er out and see if you like it.

[ratzz]

I would definitely recommend hinging it,  It shouldn't be very hard and will save you a lot of headaches.

I know with my current cab theres been a couple times i've had to pop open the Control panel to mess with the crappy concave HAPP buttons on it because they've jammed or something.  Not to mention if you ever have a button die, it will make changing it a 2 minute or less swap instead of 15-20 minutes of dealing with a screwdriver

Really? Are they that unreliable?

With my first minicab I was going to completely secure the panel...

[DaveMMR]

I would definitely recommend hinging it,  It shouldn't be very hard and will save you a lot of headaches.

I know with my current cab theres been a couple times i've had to pop open the Control panel to mess with the crappy concave HAPP buttons on it because they've jammed or something.  Not to mention if you ever have a button die, it will make changing it a 2 minute or less swap instead of 15-20 minutes of dealing with a screwdriver

Really? Are they that unreliable?

With my first minicab I was going to completely secure the panel...

Things malfunction, wiring comes loose, parts get replaced - you always want to leave yourself a way to get under your panel.  You wouldn't weld the hood of your car shut.

Granted, you can secure the panel in a way that doesn't make it easily opened by anyone but you -- but you should be able to get in there when you need to.

[XyloSesame]

I've got a 25" CP with standard SF button layout and it fits 2 people just fine

Thanks for the insight and expertise - I've been working up a model with the joys/buttons closer to center to lose some width and it's good to hear that it is comfortable. This design is 34" in width; I'm not sure I could shave 10-or-so inches to get it down to your panel, but I would love to try...

[DaveMMR]

I've got a 25" CP with standard SF button layout and it fits 2 people just fine

Thanks for the insight and expertise - I've been working up a model with the joys/buttons closer to center to lose some width and it's good to hear that it is comfortable. This design is 34" in width; I'm not sure I could shave 10-or-so inches to get it down to your panel, but I would love to try...

Oh, I didn't mean to try making your panel 25".  I brought it up mainly to assure you that if you need to cut a few inches for any reason (or move joysticks closer), you can with relative safety.  The design of my cabinet (scratch-built Centipede design) wouldn't really accommodate an overhung panel.   I'm assuming by the design that yours will overhang.  Take your cabinet width, add maybe a couple of inches to either side, and that'd be your ideal CP width.       

[severdhed]

the original panel on my cabinet was 23", i cut the sides of the cabinet and made it 30", that is plenty of room for a 2 player panel with trackball, spinner, and 4way.

[beernut]

There are definitely two schools of thought on control panels.  Franken and Classic.   I currently own a SlikStik CO2 which is definitely a franken panel and am building a classic CP which is 26" for my cabinet  which has all the nearly all functionality of the CO2  except for a 2 1/4" trackball vs the 3" on the CO2, and no two player smash tv.  Still has a spinner though.

If I were you and I hadn't bought any of my parts yet, here is what I would do.  Replace the 8-ways with either 49 ways or U360's  this would allow you to eliminate the dedicated 4 way.   This would allow you to trim quite a bit of width off your panel right there. 

Then, regarding the asteroids layout, remember that when playing you don't really need all five buttons packed together and with mame you can assign any button to any game action.  Thus, what I am doing is laying out the controls so that asteroids uses two buttons from the player one controls and three from the player two controls and thus plays pretty much exactly the same and eliminates a lot of clutter on the CP. Buttons 1 and two from player one and buttons 2 and 3 and 4 from player two.

This is also, in my opinion, the best way to layout defender.  Player one controls are used for the joystick (and with the U360 or 49way you can hold the joy hard right so that it is very close to the buttons for reversing easily) and reverse and the player two buttons are used for thrust, fire, smart bomb and hyperspace.  I use player 2 buttons 2 and 3 for thrust and fire and button4 for smart bomb and button 7 for hyperspace.  If you are a huge stargate fan add an extra button by the trackball for use in centipede and for hyperspace and then change the hyperspace button layout above into invisio.

With modern joysticks and interfaces like the U360 or 49 way with the GPWIZ49 it is easy to escape the franken panel life.

I kinda just turned your panel into mine.  Sorry about that but at least it's food for thought.

Mark

[XyloSesame]

Wow, thanks to everyone for all of your help and opinions. I feel kinda lost as I've never played on a Frankenpanel. They always look so cluttered compared to dedicated/original panels.

I brought it up mainly to assure you that if you need to cut a few inches for any reason (or move joysticks closer), you can with relative safety.

Exactly what I wanted to do. I'm not very fond of extreme Frankenpanel overhang in cabs.

the original panel on my cabinet was 23", i cut the sides of the cabinet and made it 30", that is plenty of room for a 2 player panel with trackball, spinner, and 4way.

30" or so is my goal. I've got a model in a 29" frame (pic below).

I currently own a SlikStik CO2 which is definitely a franken panel

SlikStiks were a basis for my design and inspiration. I originally modelled mine to mimic the CO2, then decided to take my own route. One of the most obvious changes was losing dual joys for P1 and P2. No two-player SmashTV for me...

If I were you and I hadn't bought any of my parts yet, here is what I would do.  Replace the 8-ways with either 49 ways or U360's

I wish I could. I only have partial approval from the wife on this project, so my budget is slim to none. I'm accumulating parts from eBay and the forums; it's cheap Happs for me. Even if I lost the dedicated 4-way, though, I'd still need room for a spinner. It doesn't seem like I'd really save space eliminating a dedicated 4-way placed next to or near the spinner. It would be cleaner, but not necessarily smaller...

what I am doing is laying out the controls so that asteroids uses two buttons from the player one controls and three from the player two controls and thus plays pretty much exactly the same and eliminates a lot of clutter on the CP

If I shrink my panel, I'll probably go with a joystick/button combo for Asteroids rather than the original 5-button layout. Of course, after play I might decide to re-map buttons and lose the joystick control altogether; I like your suggestion of combining P1 and P2 buttons for Asteroids. Also, I was thinking of mapping P2 button 1 for Centipede or trackball games requiring a fire or dedicated button. I'm taking the viewpoint that this will be an ever-evolving project.

--------------------

For all of the Frankenpanel players out there: Do you find the P1 button clusters get in the way when using a dedicated 4-way above the P1 controls? Does the P2 joystick impede spinner control or access? It seems like my palm or forearm would naturally want to rest on P1/P2 controls when using either the 4-way or spinner...

[severdhed]

my last panel had a similar layout to yours...



i found that the 4 player stick was usable, but it felt awkward being that far back, and the buttons were mildly annoying.  if you used your right hand, they werent really in the way, but if you used your left hand, it kinda sucked. 

the spinner had similar issues.   it felt weird reaching back that far to use it.  I didnt have any buttons back there so I had to use the standard player 1 buttons for trackball and spinner games, which also sucked, but it looks like you will not have that problem.

i kept my panel that way for a while, but after several months of playing that way, i found that the spinner and trackball very rarely got used at all...not nearly as much as the 4way stick...so i redesigned my panel to make it a little more user friendly.  i removed the trackball and spinner, and moved the 4way stick to the center of the panel, along with 2 buttons.  now the 4way stick feels good and is easy to use with either hand.  and because of it's location, you can easily use the original player 1 buttons with your left hand, or use the other buttons with your right hand.  I am much happier with this panel than I was with the other one.  I dont really miss the trackball or spinner at all.  The only real negative is that I have to hook up a usb mouse when i want to do windows stuff on the cabinet, since the trackball is gone.  and the fact that i wasted a good bit of time doing mouse hacks and building the spinner from an old hard drive.



the top of the panel is 30"x12"    the box is 29" by 11" and is made of 5/8" wood.    I am gettign ready to build a new box for the panel, i want it to be sloped just slightly since it is level now..and i want to clean up the woodwork, this time i am going to borrow a sander so it doesnt look like crap.

[XyloSesame]

Thanks for your experience, severdhed. Your issues with Frankenpanel usability mimic my fears. Button interference and reach/depth of panel.

Trouble is, I'm looking forward to both spinner and trackball games.

After I've spent some time with the CP, I might just end up doing a revised panel like you and eliminate unused controls...

[severdhed]

thats really all you can do.  build it, use it, revise it, repeat.  i am on my 5th panel right now, and I am finally pretty happy with the layout. I still have some craftsmanship issues i need to work out, but the spacing and feel of everything is pretty good.  I don't know if you are planning on a control panel overlay, but may i suggest building a test panel so see how everything feels, before you go to the expense of printing out an overlay only to find out you want to change something.  a heavy cardboard box, or cheap piece of wood or paneling makes a nice mock control panel to test spacing and layout.  i think that the next time i redo my panel, it will be to add artwork, not to move anythign around, but it took me 5 revisions to get to that point.  i'm glad i didnt print out overlays for all of them

[RobotronNut]

a couple of things:

(1) my 8-ways are 22.5" apart, and i play a lot of robotron, and i love the spacing.

(2) if you care about 4-way games, don't lose the dedicated 4-way. you need the diamond-shaped restriction.

(3) the asteriods-type games work fine with your 2 hands separated, so the two 7-button "fighter groups" you have will be perfect for asteroids. will work much better than trying to use a joystick.

(4) specific joystick models can make a huge difference in your scores in some games. i'm sure you've seen the endless discussions here about joysticks. on a tight budget, the following work very well: 4-way - ultimarc J-stik, 8-way - happ super.

[cthauber]

You have a very similar design to what I am in the process of building.
I went with the Ultra 360 sticks to have the analog ability (mainly for N64 games).  I can also then use the 4 central buttons as the N64 "C" buttons.

Within Mame, the 4 central buttons will be the same as P1 buttons 1-4, so I will have a nice layout for HyperSports, as well as a nice close button for spinner games.

The cutouts that are set about 4.5" from the edge are 2" wide, and the inner face is where a couple of flipper buttons will be located for pinball.
I figured the total width of 33" is just too wide for a comfortable pinball feel (most standard pinball machines are around 22" wide).

Anyways, I will hopefully be starting my cutting in the next few days.  Looking forward to getting it all done

Chris

[Dire Radiant]

The slot idea for the pinball buttons really isn't doing it for me. Have you thought of a stepped design without the two bottom corner pieces?