4 player 2 on 2 Open Ice Themed CP questions

[scotthh]

I am building a 37”x13.5” 4 player CP with a 2 on 2 Open Ice theme. I'd like to be able to play fighters with players 1 and 2. And I'd like to be able to play 2 player dual joystick games such as Smash TV with player one on the blue sticks (players 3 and 1) and the other on the red sticks (players 2 and 4).

1. Does anyone have the 2 on 2 Open Ice logo that they can share.

2. The real panel has players 1-2-3-4 from left to right. In this thread they talk about 3-1-2-4 which was how I was thinking of setting mine up. Is there a good reason to do one or the other?

3. I don't plan on angling my sticks--see this thread. And since I'd like to be able to play the simultaneous double joystick games. I need to place all of the sticks on the same horizontal plane. Which brings me to my most important question: should I angle the buttons for players 3 and 4 ala the original 2 on 2 or NBA jam panel? I think it might be too tight four across with straight buttons as I originally planned.

[Malenko]

best way I can think of getting a good logo is snapping a screen shot of the title screen, I didn't have much luck trying to google one for you.  37" across will be a tight fit for 4 players all on the same plane so angling the buttons is a good idea.

I'd prolly drop the 4th button from players 3 and 4 and add a 7th button to players 1 and 2.  I cant think of any 4 player games where all four players used 4 buttons each but the 7th button makes Open Ice/NBA Jam easier for players 1 and 2 while at the same time making games like Samurai Shodown much closer to their arcade counterparts.

[scotthh]

Here's my new version, with the players 3 and 4 buttons angled and the players 1 and 2 with 7 buttons each. Thanks Malenko! I was able to find one game where players 3 and 4 have four buttons. The Dungeons & Dragons series. But I can't say I ever played, or even seen it.

Does anyone have an opinion on the controls being labeled (from left to right) players 3-1-2-4 vs. 1-2-3-4?

[mrserv0n]

As far as that argument with with the X++X 4 player I dont get it, when the 3 and 4 players are angled its not like there pushing sideways to walk up, there standing on the very angle of the stick so its up in there direction not up at the monitor, It feels perfectly normal when playing on a X++X pattern and theres nothing wrong with setting it up that way unless you want a 5 1/2 foot long control panel for 4 men to stand comfortably.

As for the 3124 pattern it only makes sense unless its a dedicated game of hit the ice, wouldnt be good for a mame cab. because player 1 and 2 are the most used and it would just be dumb to make the primary player 2 position player 3.


For the button layout you do want 4 buttons on players 3 and 4, other poster is right about arcade not doing much with 4 player 4 button but if you get into 4 player console you need at least 4.

Ill admit my 4 player panel has 7 button one and 2 player but my 2player cabinet has 6 and when it comes to using the "run" button in MK3 and your run button is located between your kicks and punches its not fun to try to pull of a combo without mastering the art of the pinky and wrist bends. Add the 7th button, you will have the room on the ipaq-4 even with 3 admin buttons, 4 coin, 4 start. BTW: where are your coin buttons?

[DaveMMR]

I'm with you on keeping your sticks straight, hhscott.  I'll elaborate:

As far as that argument with with the X++X 4 player I dont get it, when the 3 and 4 players are angled its not like there pushing sideways to walk up, there standing on the very angle of the stick so its up in there direction not up at the monitor, It feels perfectly normal when playing on a X++X pattern and theres nothing wrong with setting it up that way unless you want a 5 1/2 foot long control panel for 4 men to stand comfortably.

A good number of people jumping on the 4-player CP train seem to think angling them is the way to go.  If you're going to angle controls, your best bet would be to cut the front edge to be parallel with the way the controls are laid out. (like so: \____/).  Otherwise, it's going to throw quite a few people off.    Are you going to assume the outside players are going to stand at the correct angle so that up is relative to them?  What if they're off a few degrees?  Will they start complaining loudly that your "machine is broken"?  And do you think the average person looks at joystick bolts or arrows on a CPO?

Here's the problem as I see it:  When you angle your controls, you are essentially "forcing" people to stand a certain way.  If they're off even an inch either way, "up" is relative to some seemingly random, imaginary line. 

There's strong debate on this but at least a couple of people who angled their sticks, I've found, seem to regret doing it.  Why?  Up is intuitively towards the screen (no confusion there).  Look at real control panels that accommodate more than two players.  The buttons are angled (or arranged differently), but the joystick is usually situated in all the same directions.  The few exceptions I've seen don't have rectangular CPs.   Remember that 4-players game don't require sophisticated joystick movement (unlike, say, SFII), so there's no reason that you need the buttons to even be directly to the right of them (see NBA Jam, Gauntlet, etc.).  Put the buttons to the upper-right of the joystick, for example.   Speaking of Gauntlet: I actually remember standing to the left of the machine to play using Thor and it worked out just fine (up was towards the screen, of course).

Secondly, if your sticks are all straight (++++), you've got the perfect setup for two-player Smash TV and Total Carnage, as scotthh pointed out.

Now a quick word on comfort, since this goes hand-in-hand with angling joysticks: If you're primary concern is being comfortable (with regards to proximity of other people), a standard arcade cabinet control panel is not for you.  Even with a lot of two-player games, you have to give up a reasonable amount of your personal space (or have a ridiculously wide, out-of-proportion CP). If you want everyone to be far apart, you either should think about building a showcase cab with a huge screen or rig up some recliners with arcade controls (I saw this at Gameworks once - looked cool!) 

More Reading on this topic for both sides of the argument:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=53415.0
(EDIT: I just realized scotthh provided the same link - so this is redundant but I'll leave it since it was quite helpful and it's almost required reading for people on the fence)

BTW: where are your coin buttons?

Maybe he has a coin door?

[scotthh]

Thanks! This is the information I was looking for before cutting any holes in my CP (I just glued up the box).

Regarding coin buttons: According to my master plan, there will be a coin door. I currently have two 24"x8" CP's. One is a 2 player rotary joystick CP, the other is a 1 player CP with a U360, trackball and spinner. The plan is for these 3 CPs to be interchangeable. I haven't figured out how, I'll need to do that by the time I begin construction of the cabinet. But mrserv0n reminded me that I do want a pause button on the CP.

Regarding alignment and comfort: I don't expect it to be spacious, but I do want it to be playable for 4 people. I don't really expect a lot of 4 player gaming, but I had the itch to make a 3rd panel and I enjoy 2 on 2 a lot.... I'm sold on ++++ because, as DaveMMR pointed out, I've seen a number of people say that they had X++X and people had problems using it. I'm also sold on angling the buttons. Malenko and mrserv0n have convinced me of 7 buttons for players 1 and 2. mrserv0n has me leaning towards four buttons again for players 3 and 4...

[mrserv0n]

1) A mame cab with only a coin door would not be all that great, its fun to put your quarter in and show off to your friends but that fun lasts about 1 day and then you want to hit a button to insert a coin.

2) I have never seen someone make a 4 player CP with Square shaped with angled controls.
Here is mine. I have had old and young play on this CP and noone ever questioned once that "the stick is broken and up is left?"
This control panel is 4 feet long, if you make a ++++ your adding a least another foot on your CP and that is huge

[DaveMMR]

1) A mame cab with only a coin door would not be all that great, its fun to put your quarter in and show off to your friends but that fun lasts about 1 day and then you want to hit a button to insert a coin.

I disagree.  Coin doors are part of the arcade experience and if you're building a cabinet, I assume that is the experience you're trying to recapture.  Inserting coins is part of that.  But that's definitely a matter of preference.  Not having coin buttons is no more wrong than having coin buttons.  Personally, pressing a button to get credits takes a lot of fun out of some games (especially infinite continue games). 

However, "a mame cab with only a coin door would not be all that great?"  Nah, it's still awesome!

2) I have never seen someone make a 4 player CP with Square shaped with angled controls.

You haven't been reading the "CP critique" threads or some of the examples.  I've seen it enough to be firmly against it.

Here is mine. I have had old and young play on this CP and noone ever questioned once that "the stick is broken and up is left?"

Reread my post.  I said CPs with the corners cut allows for better response with angled controls.  So no, people won't think you're "sticks are broken".  Once again, I was referring to the rectangular panels - and they do exist.  And I didn't even know what your panel looked like, so I wasn't being specific.

This control panel is 4 feet long, if you make a ++++ your adding a least another foot on your CP and that is huge

How do you figure he'd be adding "another foot"?  Perhaps with your layout.  But, as an example, Gauntlet's panel was 29-1/4" wide and TMNT's was 36.875.   Even if you were to add another column of buttons to those measurements, that would add 8~10" to the width tops.  That still makes them less than 4 feet - let alone the 5 feet you were quoting.
How did they do it?  Button angling!  Remember, most 4-player games were simple hack-and-slash, beat-em-ups, so the buttons can be in an otherwise awkward position. 

I don't get it.   Have people who designed 4-player panels ever stopped and played an actual 4-player game in the arcade?  I mean, c'mon, NBA Jam and NFL Blitz were big back in the day so someone must have played at least one credit's worth.  I'm not directing this at you mrserv0n, but it seems like there has been this epidemic of 4-player panel designs that incorporate false design assumptions.  An arcade cabinet doesn't have to look like an airplane and for safety's sake (mainly because those who go wider often and bafflingly go deeper too) probably shouldn't.   

That being said, I do like your panel mrserv0n.  If you have the space and design for a 4 foot wide panel, than I think you did swell job.  But a lot of people (and *ahem* most of the arcades of the past) don't have or want to dedicate the space for that.  For those people, I say rest assured, you don't have to go that wide.

I'm not here to tell people how I think things should be done and I'm sorry if I'm coming off that way.  I'm just basing all my assertions on real arcade cabinet design conventions.       At the end of the day, it's your cabinet.  I just have to address a bit of misinformation every now and again.

[scotthh]

There will be a coin door on my cabinet, I think they look empty without one. It may take coins/tokens, it may give you credits for pressing the coin return button, it may have GGG's coin buttons. I just don't know yet.

The truth is, most of the 4 player games came out after my arcade years. I remember dropping quarters in Battlezone, Ms. Pac-Man and Pole Position mostly in the early '80s. I don't ever remember playing Gauntlet(1985), and I only ever played Tecmo Bowl (1986) on NES (with the unstoppable Bo Jackson play). I did find a game, Captain America and The Avengers that appears to have angled sticks. But after sifting through a lot of games, it's the minority.

I've attached a picture of my wood CP with the joystick and button holes marked.