4 players and angled sticks

[horseboy]

This has been brought up a ton of times, but I just had to resurrect this discussion. As I was searching on the subject of players 1 and 4 (most people use these as 3 and 4 to have 1 and 2 be in the middle) having angled joysticks I determined that the general consensus was that they should be angled(x++x as opposed to ++++). I understand some of the arguements in favor of it, but others just don't make much sense to me.

What I do understand is that it makes more arm room for the players. 75% of my friends weigh 250+, so I have no arguements with this one.

What confuses me is that most people say that it will be confusing to the outside players if up is up instead of angled. This doesn't make much sense to me. Just about every 4 player game I can think of used to ++++ pattern. They always had the buttons angled, but up was always up. Ninja Turtles, Simpsons, Captain America, X Men, NBA Jam, NFL Blitz, Gauntlet Legends, and old school Gauntlet (this is the only 1 am not 100% sure on).

It isn't like you are going to be playing Street Fighter from the outside players. If you were I could understand the angling of the joysticks because it would be all funky trying to do the moves. But games like Gauntlet seems like they would be a bit strange when you push up on player 4 and he runs up and to the right.

And since all those games used the ++++ pattern and had angled buttons, that takes the arm room argument out of the picture because the outside player would still be standing at an angle.

Am I missing something obvious in this debate? Please let me know all of your thoughts on this one.

[escher]

What confuses me is that most people say that it will be confusing to the outside players if up is up instead of angled. This doesn't make much sense to me. Just about every 4 player game I can think of used to ++++ pattern. They always had the buttons angled, but up was always up. Ninja Turtles, Simpsons, Captain America, X Men, NBA Jam, NFL Blitz, Gauntlet Legends, and old school Gauntlet (this is the only 1 am not 100% sure on).

You sure on that?  I'll admit that it's been years since I played any of 'em in the arcade, but TMNT and Simpsons I'm almost positive used x++x.  The rest, not so sure.

[ahofle]

I went with ++++ (no angled).  It was hard for me to play games like gauntlet with the joysticks pointing in the wrong direction.  I can't remember what the original games were like though.  So I guess my vote is to keep up actually pointing up, not up/right.

[clhug]

Just about every 4 player game I can think of used to ++++ pattern. They always had the buttons angled, but up was always up. Ninja Turtles, Simpsons, Captain America, X Men, NBA Jam, NFL Blitz, Gauntlet Legends, and old school Gauntlet (this is the only 1 am not 100% sure on).

The cabinet I'm converting to MAME is a former Captain America (it was non-functional when I got it) and the joysticks for players 1 & 4 ARE angled.

I won't speak to the debate over whether they should or shouldn't be angled, I'm not sure of my own opinion yet until I actually try to seriously play some things once I get my cabinet done.  If I was building a panel from scratch I'm not sure if I'd angle them or not but since they are already angled  I plan to keep it that way until I play it and decide whether I should change it.

I think the main question is whether, when a player is standing at an angle to the cabinet, is it more natural for them to have the stick align to how they're standing or to the screen?  I honestly think every player will be different and there is no right or wrong answer, only what "most" people would prefer.  I suppose if you wanted maximum flexibility we could design a way to make the stick rotate in the panel so each player could adjust it either angled or aligned to the screen based on their own preference.

If you've got a big enough screen, and a wide enough control panel that all players can stand straight on side by side comfortably in front (and all still see the screen) then this wouldn't be an issue.  Absolutely then I'd say all sticks should be straight.

[horseboy]

You sure on that?  I'll admit that it's been years since I played any of 'em in the arcade, but TMNT and Simpsons I'm almost positive used x++x.  The rest, not so sure.

http://cgi.ebay.com/TMNT-TEENAGE-MUTANT-NINJA-TURTLES-ARCADE-MACHINE_W0QQitemZ6275519377QQcategoryZ13716QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/TEENAGE-MUTANT-NINGA-TURTLE-25-4-PLAYER-GAME-NR_W0QQitemZ6275988181QQcategoryZ13716QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
These look dedicated cab to me. In the first picture of the first one you can see the bolts on player 1, and they are not angled. You can it on the second link as well.

http://images.webmagic.com/klov.com/images/T/sTeenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles.jpg

From Klov. Same thing

http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=T&game_id=10056

Turtles in Time.

http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-SIMPSONS-UPRIGHT-4-PLAYER-VIDEO-ARCADE-GAME-RARE_W0QQitemZ6273795981QQcategoryZ13716QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Simpsons dedicated. ++++

The cabinet I'm converting to MAME is a former Captain America (it was non-functional when I got it) and the joysticks for players 1 & 4 ARE angled

You might be right on this one. I found 2 pictures of the cp 1 was angled and 1 wasn't. Are you sure yours wasn't a conversion.

[Lilwolf]

I had it angled for a long time... but I changed it..

why?

because I would have kids play captain america at every one of my daughters birthdays when I was in new mexico... And NONE of the kids could get the controls to work right.  They where always running in the wrong direction.

It didn't effect adults as much (because they could figure it out by watching the screen for a sec).  But after changing it to ++++, they had the same reaction (where they would adjust right away to the proper direction).

Next... and what I think is a big reason...  2 player smashtv and total carnage is REALLY fun... and you can do it with ++++ but not so well with x++x

[Teknique]

X++X here.

Why?  Because I wanted up to really be up and not left or right. 

Is it confusing? not really- most people figure it out really quickly.  I will admit it was a little tough to do smash tv at first, but after a round or two (especially with all those prices and "big money") I got the hang of it.

Tek

[ahofle]

X++X here.

Why?  Because I wanted up to really be up and not left or right. 

Hmm, I don't see any part of the 'X' in 'X++X' that points 'up'.   

[CheffoJeffo]

Where is Paige when you need him ?

Cheers.

[clhug]

The cabinet I'm converting to MAME is a former Captain America (it was non-functional when I got it) and the joysticks for players 1 & 4 ARE angled

You might be right on this one. I found 2 pictures of the cp 1 was angled and 1 wasn't. Are you sure yours wasn't a conversion.

No, I couldn't swear to that.  When I bought it it was actually an Open Ice game (that was also non functional).  When I pulled off the Open Ice artwork, underneath was all the Captain America stuff.  Full CA artwork on both sides of the cabinet, monitor bezel, and control panel.  I suppose it could have been something else before it was even Captain America.  I also suppose it's possible the 1&4 sticks may have been rotated when they converted it to Open Ice, but there were no secondary bolt holes so they'd have had to build a new panel if that's what they did.

[pointdablame]

The cabinet I'm converting to MAME is a former Captain America (it was non-functional when I got it) and the joysticks for players 1 & 4 ARE angled.

Would you mind taking a pic of that?  I didn't think there was any original machines that angled the joys, unless it was converted or altered by an op.

Simpsons, Xmen, and TMNT did NOT angle the joys, nor did most (I'll hold off saying "all" since clhug may prove me wrong) of the original machines.

I think angling the joys is silly personally, but its personal preference really.  One thing is for sure though... you don't gain any more room.  People will still stand the same way regardless of joystick orientation.  Give it a shot with 2 mock ups and you'll see.

[CheffoJeffo]

I think angling the joys is silly personally, but its personal preference really.  One thing is for sure though... you don't gain any more room.  People will still stand the same way regardless of joystick orientation.  Give it a shot with 2 mock ups and you'll see.

Never mind, I think PDB is channeling Paige ... and I agree with both of them ...

Cheers.

[clhug]

The cabinet I'm converting to MAME is a former Captain America (it was non-functional when I got it) and the joysticks for players 1 & 4 ARE angled.

Would you mind taking a pic of that?  I didn't think there was any original machines that angled the joys, unless it was converted or altered by an op.

Picture attached.  I know the pic shows it's NOT a Captain America but see my previous post about details on that.  I promise, under that Open Ice side art, the black monitor bezel, and the control panel, was Captain America artwork (no marquee though).  The CA side art actually covered 3/4 of the side (from the very top to about 2 ft from the bottom) and they pained over the part of it that the Open Ice side art didn't cover.  If you look just to the left of the speaker you can see a scratch through the paint with a tiny bit of the Captain America artwork showing through.  If you look closely at the far left blue joystick you can see the carraige bolts holding the joystick on the panel and see that they're at an angle.

I do admit that I don't know enough to say this wasn't something else even before it was a Captain America, but there are no extra unused holes in the wood control panel, so either everything is still in it's original position on the control panel or they built a new control panel top from scratch when they converted it to Open Ice.  It does look like they may have added a few buttons (some of them have counter sunk nuts on the bottom and some don't so I figured the counter sunk ones were original and the non-counter sunk ones were probably added for the Open Ice).  But there's nothing "missing" either.

Oh, there is a "Data East" sticker on the back with a serial number, 308717, on it if that may help determine anything.

Sorry, I don't have any pictures of it showing the Captain America artwork.  The CA artwork was too damaged from taking off the Open Ice artwork and I ended up pulling all the Captain America artwork off and throwing it away.  Oh, I guess I do still have the monitor bezel though if you'd like a picture of that.

[RayB]

Majority are not angled.

[pointdablame]

I think angling the joys is silly personally, but its personal preference really.  One thing is for sure though... you don't gain any more room.  People will still stand the same way regardless of joystick orientation.  Give it a shot with 2 mock ups and you'll see.

Never mind, I think PDB is channeling Paige ... and I agree with both of them ...

Cheers.

I suddenly feel like buying a scooter.

[Kremmit]

I've recently discovered a dedicated game with angled joys, despite all Paige's arguements to the contrary. 

I have a dedicated Mercs here.  When I got it working, a buddy and I got a bucket of quarters and played it all the way through.  I was really confused at first, when my guy kept insisting on running diagonally- I thought it was the game forcing it on me until I saw that my buddy was running straight just fine.  Sure enough, the P1 and P3 sticks are angled 45 degrees.  I know it's not a conversion, because there just aren't any other 3-player cabs with vertical 25" monitors.  And there are no extra holes in the CP, which still has the factory laminate overlay, so it wasn't changed after the fact, either. 

Once I figured it out, my play got better.  But I still hated it, and my buddy still kicked my butt.  I would definately never put angled sticks on a game on purpose, and if I were keeping the Mercs, I'd make a custom mounting bracket I could screw into the existing holes that would let me put the sticks right. 

Angled sticks are teh sux!

[XtraSmiley]

Well, when I first posted about this a long time ago, I stated that Gauntlet was angled, but someone (I think Paige) smacked some sense into me and even posted a picture proving my memory faulty.

Well, I finally found and purchased a game I've been wanting for about 8 years, a dedicated Midway Trog.  It hasn't arrived yet, but as I recall, the buttons on this thing were the worst EVER.  Player 1 and 2 had the button to the left of the joysticks, player 3 (far left) had the button at NW (or 315 degrees) and player 4 (far right) the button was at the bottom of the joystick.

See pic:



Now it's possible player 3 is at an angle but I won't know for sure until I get the game delivered (it's 4 states away right now).  But my point is this, having the buttons there really f**cked my game up when I was P4.  Also, if you put the joy in at ++++ or X++X will it really matter for Smash TV when you can just set it up in MAME so that diagonal is up?  that way both joys have the same directions?

I eventually want to buy a SlikStik quad, and I think those are angled right?

[Teknique]

X++X here.

Why?  Because I wanted up to really be up and not left or right. 

Hmm, I don't see any part of the 'X' in 'X++X' that points 'up'.   

When you have a 4 player cab, the outermost players actually stand at an angle to the screen, they stand on the axis of an "X" ( I am suprised you didnt know this). 

From their perspective, a parallel motion that they consider to be "up" will actually look like it is on a diagonal to the person standing next to them even though it is a normal "up" motion to the outermost players.

This normal "up" motion is then translated throughout all players.  So if you are player 1, you can still play the exact same way when you are player 3 or player 4 since the movement is the same.

Tek
 

[quarterback]

nm

[struby]

I am not far away from making my control panel, and don't really know what to do here, I am actually thinking of routing out both shapes:

cuz either way the joystick will have hold right?:



Anyway, lemme know what you think.

[clhug]

I suppose it may depend on what type of stick you have, but with most of the ones I know you shouldn't have to route out the square shape.  Just drill a hole for the shaft to come up through and bolt holes to secure the stick.  The hole for the shaft doesn't change regardless of how you mount it, so all you'd need is 2 sets of bolt holes.

I suppose if you have a very thick wood panel and have a stick with a short shaft you may be routing out the square shape to get more of the shaft sticking above the panel, in which case I think your shape should be fine.  Oh, except you'll have to make sure you've got enough wood left in either position to still put your bolts through.

[struby]

well yeah, I might just also route out the area big enough to go either way, rather than 2 defined rectangles, but I am using joysticks from Pelican Real Universal Arcades
Sticks, and I want to route my cp so the joysticks are mounted on the same thickness as they were on the Pelicans.

[Xiaou2]

 Almost Every game that had more than two players did NOT angle
 the sticks.   They only angled the buttons.

 If you open the control panels and look inside... you will see
 all the sticks are pointed Up.  None are angled.

 People have trouble when the stick is angled.. because
you subconsously think 'UP'  and push UPwards TWORDS the
screen..  instead of diagnally as an angled sticks Up would be.

 You arnt looking at the control panel for an UP reference.   Even
 looking at the joystick from the top, you cant tell which way is
 up... hence the confusion.

  If you have 4 really big players..  then build a showcase
pedestal cabnet.. so the monitor is far away, and the control
panel width can be any size.

 Or, use two gamepads for the 3 and 4th player.. having
 them stand on stools to view the screen.

 There is also another way to get more space,
 by hand/button  placements:

[XtraSmiley]

All I can say is eeh,

People get use to whatever you give them.  They may mess up a few times with an angled joystick, but if they are any good at games, they'll get better.  The SlikStik 4 player is angled and I don't think anyone has complained that bought one (at least here or on their boards)

As for the pics, I remember seeing them awhile ago and they seem great, but really, how much room is there on the four player?  Probably not enough anyway, even if the arms have enough room.  The shoulders would be bumping like crazy.

[Xiaou2]

 XtraSmiley,   thats BS.   

 Firstly, you didnt Read the post Correctly.   SLIKStik's joys are probably  straight UNDERNEATH the panel.

Just because they are STAGGERED on the top.. does not mean the UP position is not facing UPWARDS.

 Next..  Id love to see you get good at playing a game with a joy MOUNTED at a 45 degree angle.  Ever try it?  I have.  Damn Tekken III machine that some idiot mounted the sticks wrong.  I had freeplay, and even after 20 minutes of playing, would mess up a direction.    And on a regular machine, I have NO problems with that.

 Ever think about putting a reverse spin on your cars steering wheel?  So that if you turn left, you go right?  That alone would cause an accident a minute.   Yet putting a joy at an angle is even worse... because its not a typical backwards response. 

 Its simular to playing Qbert with the joy at a normal position,  instead of angled.   You just keep fumbling it. 

 Maybe you just dont care if you mess up on a game often.   Maybe you arnt good enough to care anyway.  But me..  It pisses me off when I cant control a game propperly.  When I mess up  .. Not by My fault... but because the games controls are poor, broken, wrong..ect.   I know Im not the only one in that respect for sure.

 As for the pics, yes, your gona need to make a panel large enough for actual bodies.   I merely made that design to be able to support elbow room and arm comfort.  Its possible, that the guys could turn their shoulders.. but even then it may not be the most comfortable depending on the panel size.

 Problem  with those  angled CP's that have STRAIGHT joys..  is usually that the 2 end people are in poor positions to actually SEE the monitor well.   The button layouts are also usually very uncomfortable.   I know, because I used to manage an arcade..  and we had several machines like that,  that I had played, in those positions.

  Ohh and Btw .. Heres is the Simpsons Control Panel. 
NOTE THE MOUNTING SCREWS!  THEY ARE NOT AT AN ANGLE!

http://www.mameworld.net/maws/img/cpanel/simpsons.png
 
(you will have to manually copy and paste the link above
to view it)

[XtraSmiley]

OK man, first of all, check here:

http://www.slikstik.com/quad_pho.htm#

There is no up or side ways when mounting.  I'm sure that when you kick your game on, Up is in relation to the SFII buttons.  Right?  Even if it is not a 45 degree mount (which it looks like it might be, but hard to tell), it's 90 degree, off of what you are saying.

Do you think if you were playing the SS Quad, up would actually be left of the buttons?

EDIT:  I'm only pointing out the SS cp.  I never said anything about simpsons or any other game, other than Trog.  What is your point?  Have you played the Quad?  Maybe you'd get use to it?  Then again, if that Tekken was so bad, maybe not.  To each his own.

[CheffoJeffo]

Does anybody have a picture of a SS quad that actually shows the mounting ? Since there are no visible bolt holes you can't tell if the sticks are mounted at an angle (just because the buttons are doesn't mean the sticks are).

Cheers.

[Nannuu]

As I was searching on the subject of players 1 and 4 (most people use these as 3 and 4 to have 1 and 2 be in the middle) having angled joysticks I determined that the general consensus was that they should be angled(x++x as opposed to ++++).

I'm not sure the general consensus was ever to have P3 and P4 angled but I could be wrong.  I'm another that prefers the ++++ approach.  Having built a 4 player we had no problem with any game in that configuration.  And we could play 2 player Smash TV 
I'd say make a mockup and test yourself.  That's the best way to do it, it's your cabinet, you need to be happy with it.  Once you have your CP together, it's not fun to dismantle later.

[XtraSmiley]

Does anybody have a picture of a SS quad that actually shows the mounting ? Since there are no visible bolt holes you can't tell if the sticks are mounted at an angle (just because the buttons are doesn't mean the sticks are).

Cheers.

Angled or not, my point is this.  Up is NOT towards the screen.  So in reality, you are playing at an angle.  We just don't know if it's 45 or 90 degrees.  You see?  If you are unable to handle playing games with the joystick pointing in any direction but up toward the screen, you are screwed.

[horseboy]

Angled or not, my point is this.  Up is NOT towards the screen.  So in reality, you are playing at an angle.  We just don't know if it's 45 or 90 degrees.  You see?  If you are unable to handle playing games with the joystick pointing in any direction but up toward the screen, you are screwed.

Why? This whole thread has basically been about the fact that almost every 4 player game ever was laid out where up WAS toward the screen.

++++

[lettuce]

The majortity of 4 player cabs would have players 3 & 4 standing at an angle to the screen anyway wouldnt they??? In which case Up to P3&4 would look like diagonally up left or right to players 1&2!!!

[XtraSmiley]

What I do understand is that it makes more arm room for the players. 75% of my friends weigh 250+, so I have no arguements with this one.

What confuses me is that most people say that it will be confusing to the outside players if up is up instead of angled. This doesn't make much sense to me. Just about every 4 player game I can think of used to ++++ pattern. They always had the buttons angled, but up was always up. Ninja Turtles, Simpsons, Captain America, X Men, NBA Jam, NFL Blitz, Gauntlet Legends, and old school Gauntlet (this is the only 1 am not 100% sure on).

Am I missing something obvious in this debate? Please let me know all of your thoughts on this one.

No, I think you got it.  No idea why everyone else has a problem with this.  Like I said, after reading dozens of people complain about SS contact and delivery problems, I've never read somone complain about Players 3 and 4 sticks being "up" to the right of player 1.

[CheffoJeffo]

Does anybody have a picture of a SS quad that actually shows the mounting ? Since there are no visible bolt holes you can't tell if the sticks are mounted at an angle (just because the buttons are doesn't mean the sticks are).

Angled or not, my point is this.  Up is NOT towards the screen.  So in reality, you are playing at an angle.  We just don't know if it's 45 or 90 degrees.  You see?  If you are unable to handle playing games with the joystick pointing in any direction but up toward the screen, you are screwed.

All I did was ask a simple question, which you completely ignored in your rush to condescend.

I didn't ask you to explain why you think angled sticks are not a problem (I don't particularly care!) ... I asked if anybody had a picture of the underside of the quad panel to confirm what you were presenting as fact.

Having now looked at the inside of the quad blank, it appears that the choice of angled stick mounting is left to the user, which is probably the best solution.

Cheers.

[XtraSmiley]

Does anybody have a picture of a SS quad that actually shows the mounting ? Since there are no visible bolt holes you can't tell if the sticks are mounted at an angle (just because the buttons are doesn't mean the sticks are).

Angled or not, my point is this.  Up is NOT towards the screen.  So in reality, you are playing at an angle.  We just don't know if it's 45 or 90 degrees.  You see?  If you are unable to handle playing games with the joystick pointing in any direction but up toward the screen, you are screwed.

All I did was ask a simple question, which you completely ignored in your rush to condescend.

I didn't ask you to explain why you think angled sticks are not a problem (I don't particularly care!) ... I asked if anybody had a picture of the underside of the quad panel to confirm what you were presenting as fact.

Having now looked at the inside of the quad blank, it appears that the choice of angled stick mounting is left to the user, which is probably the best solution.

Cheers.

Hey, sorry if that sounded condescending, I wasn't trying to be.  I still mean, even if you choose to go with it mounted like players 1-2, you will still be playing where up is in relation to the buttons, not up toward the screen.

In all old arcade games, the joys were mounted and the control was set up where up is toward the screen.  See what I'm saying?  The 45/90 thing is yet another difference.  The fact that you are actually playing with up being toward the middle of the cp is what makes the quad different than ALL old games (all that we've seen) to begin with, whether you choose to mount them 45 makes it even more different.

Again, sorry if that sounded harsh the first time I posted. 

[horseboy]

Quote
Angled or not, my point is this.  Up is NOT towards the screen.  So in reality, you are playing at an angle.  We just don't know if it's 45 or 90 degrees.  You see?  If you are unable to handle playing games with the joystick pointing in any direction but up toward the screen, you are screwed.

Why? This whole thread has basically been about the fact that almost every 4 player game ever was laid out where up WAS toward the screen.

Quote from: horseboy on May 03, 2006, 02:49:11 PM
What I do understand is that it makes more arm room for the players. 75% of my friends weigh 250+, so I have no arguements with this one.

What confuses me is that most people say that it will be confusing to the outside players if up is up instead of angled. This doesn't make much sense to me. Just about every 4 player game I can think of used to ++++ pattern. They always had the buttons angled, but up was always up. Ninja Turtles, Simpsons, Captain America, X Men, NBA Jam, NFL Blitz, Gauntlet Legends, and old school Gauntlet (this is the only 1 am not 100% sure on).

Am I missing something obvious in this debate? Please let me know all of your thoughts on this one.


No, I think you got it.  No idea why everyone else has a problem with this.  Like I said, after reading dozens of people complain about SS contact and delivery problems, I've never read somone complain about Players 3 and 4 sticks being "up" to the right of player 1.

I was confused. I am pretty sure we agree. Sorry

[ahofle]

The problem here is people's definition of 'up'.  I think the X++X angled joystick supporters think of 'up' as pointing toward the centerpoint of the screen (shouldn't players one and two be angled inward about 10 percent also using that logic? LOL).  The ++++ group considers 'up' to be perpendicular to the plane of the monitor. 

[quarterback]

The problem here is people's definition of 'up'.  I think the X++X angled joystick supporters think of 'up' as pointing toward the centerpoint of the screen (shouldn't players one and two be angled inward about 10 percent also using that logic? LOL).  The ++++ group considers 'up' to be perpendicular to the plane of the monitor. 

Exactly.   And, for the record, "up" is ++++ where "up" is toward the screen.  Anybody who's defining "up" as the direction directly in front of the player is defining a direction that changes whenever a player's angle changes.  That's no way to define "up" because  then "up" can be anything.  Up is going to be different for every single person who stands at the CP.  Maybe you stand at a 45-degree angle to the screen, maybe I stand at a 38-degree angle to the screen, maybe somebody else stands at a 17-degree angle to the screen.   Now which way is "up"?

Up is up.  Up is the direction which, if travelled, would create a line that is perpendicular to the screen :  ++++   Anything else is "angled"