How necessary is a 49 way joystick?

[genesim]

I noticed that NFL Blitz and NBA Showtime also use the joystick.    I know very little about this, but I wonder if the gameplay is that different as opposed to these games being hardcoded in the arcade to 8 way mode. 

I honestly never knew what kind of joystick they used when I played them.

Its so tough, because it is like Pokeman..I got to have them all.   Yet my control panel is frankenstein enough, and I am seriously thinking about replacing the Q-Bert stick with the Ultra 360.

Yet am I actually hurting Qbert by getting rid of the restrictor plate.   I know the Ultra can be fitted with one, but that is too much for me.   So would it also effect the gameplay.

I have a J Stick at the moment and I love it, but this seems to be the one place for the Ultra 360.   It does seem like a great joystick though, the hard part is coming up with a need.

If it is NFL Blitz and Showtime, then I would have to replace my rotaries on Player one and two, and that is not possible while keeping my cab in good with my Dreamcast and PS2.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I do understand that NFL Blitz etc. are not playable yet, but they may be someday, and at this point I guess the stick is mainly for Sinistar and Qbert.

[fjl]

I have a U360. Great joystick.

And no its not just for Q-Bert and Sinistar. Which I actually find it kind of useless on Sinistar since I don't really use it as an Analog. I tend to press all the way. But its not just for q-bert and that other game. It's for ALL games I play. I use MaLa frontend and the u360 plugin. So it auto changes to the correct mode. From 4 way to 8 way, to analog to two way and obviously the 45 degree q-bert mode. When using the frontend it always goes back to 4 way to make selecting through the menus easier.

[genesim]

I guess my problem is the "feel" of it when I consider that Qbert I thought used a restrictor plate.

Also, it would be used for flying games and what not.   It is a tough decision though and Qbert would be the main fatality.   

As it stands, it is tough for me to justify because it won't be a main joystic because I can't give up the rotaries.   So many games with so many control.

Its hard to build the "ultimate" panel.

Thanks for the response though.   I shall do some more research, it no doubt seems like a great thing to have.    Though is Sinistar playable without it?   I guess in retrospect this would be the main reason for having this joystick.   I tend to play games like Afterburner with the trackball.    I bet it could be good for shooting games though which could be another reason.

[Kaytrim]

You can still keep the rotaries.  There is an adapter for the Midway 49way sticks here  What is really great is that GGG has an adapter that interfaces with the 49 way sticks that can be programmed via the front end.  The new version of the interface that is coming is worth the wait I think.  Randy is also planning on introducing his own 49 way stick along with the new interface.

Keep an eye out for the announcement from Randy, just don't hold your breath. 

TTFN
Kaytrim

[fixedpigs]

five up on the 'ultimate' control panel...just build another mame cabinet...

[ahofle]

I noticed that NFL Blitz and NBA Showtime also use the joystick.    I know very little about this, but I wonder if the gameplay is that different as opposed to these games being hardcoded in the arcade to 8 way mode. 

Think of it as a 7x7 grid, with 49 distinct positions that can be hit.  Of course, many games don't use all that precision, such as Road Runner (in which you can move Road Runner 'slow' by slightly moving the stick left, or 'fast' by moving it full left).  It's basically like an analog stick, but with only 49 positions.  The best part about them (49 way and analog) in the context of emulation is that you can make 'maps' for different games such as 2-way, 4-way, 8-way, Tron, etc.  As you said though, it doesn't quite feel right in some games without physical restriction, but it's a great compromise.  I'm definitely looking forward to RandyT's fabled 49-way with rotary function.

EDIT: forgot how to multiply 

[Kaytrim]

Actually a 49 way stick is a 7x7 grid, the U360 by Ultimarc is a 9x9.

TTFN

[ahofle]

Oops, corrected.

[lettuce]

Im selling a pair of 49 ways what have had the rotatry mod done to them in the Buy/Sell/Trade forum if your intrested!?

[u_rebelscum]

My 2 cents:

• Not only does Blitz not run well yet, but mame doesn't emulate its 49-way input yet, either.  (Nor does with any recent midway/atari 49-way games.)
• There are three or four games that mame supports its 49-way: Sinistar, pigskin, arch rivals (OTTOMH), and that other sinistar like game (clone?).
• Blitz treats the middle 3 levels of each axis as "center", so I think the game is sort of 21 way (41 way if blitz is smart and it's only the 3x3 center grid).
• IMO there is a huge difference between an 8-way and a 49-way even if you only "go all the way"; the 49-way still has 24 different directions, just counting the positions on the edge (& I think 16 way for blitz).
• Mame treats 49-way games (that it emulates) as an analog joystick with 7 positions per axis.
• Mame now can basically do what u360 does, but in software; both can convert analog signals to 8, 4, 4 diagonal, & etc digital with 9x9 grids.  The biggest differences are with mame the 9x9 map works with any analog stick but is the same for every stick, while u360 the 9x9 map can be different per each u360 stick and can work in any app that reads joystick inputs.
  
• If you like the qbert restricted feel and are getting the u360, also get the square restrictor. 
• If you like sinistar and have a u360, set the u360 to analog mode.
  
• If you like the qbert restricted feel and are getting a 49-way, you'll miss the restricted feel.
• If you like sinistar and have a 49-way + gpwiz49, people swear by the progressive mode.  (Mathamatically and mame-wise doesn't make sense, but I still have to test it.  )

I guess that's enough for now.

[genesim]

Fixedpigs...I must have the ULTIMATE.   I hate walking..even a couple of feet as my waistline will show.


u_rebelscum,

If you like the qbert restricted feel and are getting a 49-way, you'll miss the restricted feel.

And that is what scares me.

Great rundown.   Along with the others.. it looks like player one and player two will be the targets if it ever happens.

Lettuce, I will check out your buy and trade, but right now I am busted with all the other crap that I have got.    It was a long shot to begin with...but to get two.  Almost unobtainable!

*update*

I know why this won't work.   I hate OPTICAL!!   HATE HATE HATE.   I had Happs Perfect 360's and they just didn't feel right.

I use the Rotaries on player one, and I have never looked back.   I actually prefer them over the regular competion or supers.     There something about switches that feel more authentic.     Of course I got a couple of supers for Sticks #2 on my CO2 because they match the rotaries pretty well.

I guess 49 way just isn't worth it.   It would be a standalone at best(which I have no room for).    I enjoy NFL Blitz and NBA Showtime on the Dreamcast anyway, so not knowing Sinistar, I guess I will live without them.

[leapinlew]

Its hard to build the "ultimate" panel.

[MonMotha]

I actually have a real Blitz setup, so I'll chime in.  Blitz does not use the "slightly" positions on the 49 ways.  So the center 3x3 grid is dead.  It does use the rest of the grid.  You will *not* notice during most of gameplay (since you tend to just throw the stick in one direction as far as it will go), and I in fact play on 8-ways.  The only time you notice is when you have two receivers close to each other:  with an 8-way, the receiver selection is difficult.  Real Blitz (on the original hardware) can be run with either 8-ways or 49-ways, and some conversion cabs still have their original 8-ways installed.  It doesn't seem to matter a whole lot.

[koolmoecraig]

I have a real Q*bert machine.  What restriction are you talking about?  It's just a 4-way mounted at an angle.  There is no restriction plate used.

[genesim]

Excellent information from both!

I was wondering about Qbert the other day having a restrictor plate at all.    It being a 4 way game, it is is odd that the up position wouldn't be.

Just making sure...so this is a dedicated cab with original stock arcade sticks??   

Damn....just when I got off the whole 49 way of thinking.

Eh whatever.   I still like Qbert restricted.   But I would like to know about Sinistar because it is a classic...decisions decisions.

About the Ultimate control panel listed above, it does look like a complete joke.   With my belly I would have a hard time leaning over that thing. 

I guess I shouldn't say "ultimate"...but closer to it.  Damn, decisions decisions.     More and more it is looking like Qbert is going out.    Just when I thought it was all done. 

[GregorDV]

As in all things, if you can't make a decision, choose "All of the above."

I'm trying my hand at a version of Doc's Modular Panel:
http://www.beersmith.com/mame/controls.htm

The joysticks just pop in and out (plugging in a "network cable" RJ45).  That way, you can have your dedicated Q-Bert, a spinner, an 8 way and a 4 way, etc., and your control panel is always nice and clean.  It's a pretty elegant solution.

[Neverending Project]

...

• Mame now can basically do what u360 does, but in software; both can convert analog signals to 8, 4, 4 diagonal, & etc digital with 9x9 grids.  The biggest differences are with mame the 9x9 map works with any analog stick but is the same for every stick, while u360 the 9x9 map can be different per each u360 stick and can work in any app that reads joystick inputs.
  

...

So will MAME retain the conversion settings for each ROM? In other words, if you have an analog joystick and you set MAME to map the diagonals for something like Q-Bert, will those settings only be for Q-Bert?

I am really trying to understand the u360, and the difference between a 49-way. I do understand the u360 allows maps, and can be applied on-the-fly from a front-end or a CLI. And I also understand that the u360 can have a different map applied to each joy on the cabinet. But after reading pages upon pages of u360 posts, I am getting confused (again).

For example, the original Sinistar had a 49-way?  How does this compare to an analog?

Edit: I just found yet another post (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68066.0) that answers my 49-way vs. analog question.

[KenToad]

I have 49 way joysticks with upgraded grommets and GPWiz 49's and that setup works really well with my older version (.87, I believe) of our favorite emu.  I have also found that they work really well with emulated N64.  I actually enjoy playing Mario 64 more with my 49 way than with the original thumbstick.  Naturally, it's also really good for PC platformers and perfect for the games that U_RebelScum listed.  The diagonal mode is good for Q-Bert, but definitely feels different than the original controls.  All the modes work well, as advertised.  It comes down to whether or not you like the feel of the joystick.

[u_rebelscum]

...Mame now can basically do what u360 does, but in software
...

So will MAME retain the conversion settings for each ROM? In other words, if you have an analog joystick and you set MAME to map the diagonals for something like Q-Bert, will those settings only be for Q-Bert?

Mame already has a few default maps: 8-way, 4-way, & 4-way diagonal (aka qbert), and switches between them automatically if you don't specify your own map.  Try the automatic maps and see if you like them before making your own.  If you like them, you don't need to do any setup besides setting the u360 in analog mode and enabling joysticks and making sure mame is using the right joystick, the last two you'd have to do any way you run it).

If you decide to make your own maps, you have to make a game specific ini file.  I'd just put one line with just the joystick_map option in those files.  Once done, mame "remembers".