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Author Topic: How 'green' are you?  (Read 10353 times)

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shorthair

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How 'green' are you?
« on: May 14, 2007, 06:54:06 pm »
At least that I've seen, this has come out a little bit in thread where people talked about their electrical usage. I'm curious about it in general. How green are you?...do you think you are?

polaris

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2007, 07:15:15 pm »
personally im not at all which i feel bad about, but seeing theres not much i can do i try and get over it.
my job is so unfriendly to the planet its untrue.
interesting point, cant remember the guys name, but the guy who was responsible for lead in petrol felt so guilty about the damage he later found that he had cause,. he sought to invent something positive for his fellow man, he came up with a method that led to homes having fridges unkowingly producing CFC's in the process.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2007, 01:02:30 am »
That's ironic. Well, recycling is one thing many think of, first off.

I only have enough trash to fill a regular size wal-mart bag about every two or three weeks. The rest I recycle, kept in the paper bags I get from Trader Joe's, and I might fill one a week at most. I have two large size monitors now - I thinking two cabs, of course - but wondering how I'm going to work that. I don't drive but maybe once a week or less, and otherwise ride my bike if it's less than 3-5 miles each way, if I can carry whatever in my bag, and weather permitting, which is most of the time here. For electricity, I have a single 26w flourescent bulb in each room, except for my 4 foot industrial flourescent fixture.

I only buy stuff if it's something I'm going to use, and I don't need or want a lot of extra stuff, so that keeps my spending down. I know, more spending keeps interest rates low, etc. Funny cycle, huh? 3D printing is on the way soon enough though.

And I keep my place very ordered and tidy. I count this - though when it exceeds a certain effort limit, it becomes prohibitive. This is what I mean by green. Not just recycle and use less, but less movement...I don't fidget with things, generally. Of course, when we can conjure things from imagination - and some purportedly can - things may be a bit different.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2007, 06:37:57 am »


i try. for instance, my housemate is terrible for leaving her bedroom light on. any time i notice it i turn it off. frustrating though, as it feels as though i could leave it on and she wont go in her room for hours but any time i turn it off, shes back in there minutes later...

i normally switch my computer off during the day when im not home. i havent gotten around to putting in wattsaver type globes in the place but when you dont own the place its always a bit of a hassle. but hang it. i will! youve spurred me on!

it pains me that i live in a unit and cant compost. when i lived in my house with my sister we would compost all food scraps and recycle. it got that really we needed the recycle picked up weekly and the regular garbage once a fortnight or less...

i could do better with my car. people assume being an old VW it must be really fuel efficient. i dont know why they think that. i try and ride my bike on the weekends but its only into the city.


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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2007, 08:19:44 am »
I recycle cans/bottles.

I have to drive for work, so no savings on gas.

I make up for the gas waste by saving water.  Peeing in the shower counts as saving water, right?
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2007, 08:34:15 am »
Thanks for the effort guys.  I regularly spill some gas while pumping it into my f-150.  I keep the tires low pressure so they make less noise.  I have my thermostat in my house set at 68 in the summer, 78 in the winter.  I yell at my kids for leaving lights off.  I drink  a 12 pack of coke a day, and throw all the cans and bottles in the woods behind my house.  I over fertilize my lawn so it looks nice and green.  Who cares if I can walk across the pond?  I leave all 10 of my TV's on and loud so I don't have to go into a room and think.  I wash my socks seperately so they don't get lost.  I change the oil in my car every 3K miles and pour the old oil in the storm sewer.  I give the EPA helicopters flying over the river here the finger.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 08:41:34 am »
Our subdivision picks up newspaper and plastic, but not glass.

Surprisingly, there is more recyclable plastic than you might think. I typically throw out plastic ketchup bottles, but it turns out that those are recyclable. So are most medicine bottles.

As far as electricity goes, my power bill was for 2160 kilowatt hours last month. Everyone in my family leaves lights, televisions, and computers on. I have changed a few of the worst offernding lights to low power fluorescents. My wife does not like the color of the light they emit so I am not changing all the bulbs.

From what I understand, though, pretty soon they won't be selling incandescent bulbs in California anymore.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 08:50:51 am »
  I change the oil in my car every 3K miles and pour the old oil in the storm sewer.

Hippie.  I change my car every 3k miles and dump the old one in the pond.

Recycling is usually more a function of what your local recycler accepts than it is about what is recyclable.  Our town does not pick up styrofoam, for instance, despite it being coded and easily recyclable.  They will only pick up recyclables on which they can break even or turn a small profit (so they can sustain the service).  Ironically, the styrofoam needs recycling far more than the stuff they do pick up and I always feel guilty putting it in the trash.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2007, 09:04:02 am »
  I change the oil in my car every 3K miles and pour the old oil in the storm sewer.

Hippie.  I change my car every 3k miles and dump the old one in the pond.


i actually change my oil way more regularly than is normal. twice for summer and once or twice more for the rest of the year. air cooled VW. no oil filter. hotter running. i dont of course dump the oil down the drain. it gets recycled. although when i was a teenager we didnt know better. i used to use it to kill weeds on the fence line! i imagined it was bio degrading because the weeds would grow back when really the weeds grew back because the oil had leached out of the soil and into the drains and then on to the sea...


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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2007, 09:14:27 am »

I get mine changed about every 5-6k.  Civic, doesn't consume much oil, runs cool.  I don't change it myself because I'd rather pay $20 and have it done.

polaris

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2007, 10:24:14 am »
That's ironic. Well, recycling is one thing many think of, first off.

i bought some apples the other day, which were grown in south america, if i chose to put the recyclable waste in a second bin , it doesnt stop my local authority shipping it off to landfill in china. they dont recycle it, barely anything is actually recycled even though its claimed to be. so how do i live a green life when the authorities dont manage things in that fashion
id love to think we can help prolong human life on the planet by living more greenly but its not happening and will not happen. for us to be living a sustainable life ,100% of what we consume should be 100% recyclable, i bet its not even 1% in reality.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2007, 10:39:40 am »
I don't consider myself green, but I do a few "green" things. I have replaced every light bulb except for the living room with compact flourescent. For some reason, the ceiling fan in the living room won't work with CF.
We recycle cans. We refill 16oz water bottles with filtered water, which greatly cuts down on disposable plastic.
I have a programmable thermostat to save on energy.
We use Tide Cold water detergent.

Now for the bad:
I have an hour round trip commute to work.
All of my cars leak oil badly. (however, I am trading in the worst offender, the ol' tracker, today for a Ford Escape  ;D)
The wife tends to leave lights on.
I tend to leave on the computer overnight to, uh, download, uh, important stuff. ;)

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2007, 10:43:25 am »

The spiral fluorescent bulbs are cool, I did that years ago.  They produce a much better light, too, IMO.

I wish I could do more about my washing machine but we go through a lot of cycles on that thing.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2007, 10:51:17 am »

The spiral fluorescent bulbs are cool, I did that years ago.  They produce a much better light, too, IMO.

I wish I could do more about my washing machine but we go through a lot of cycles on that thing.
you could do it by hand
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2007, 10:55:09 am »

That wouldn't save much if any water, I suspect.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2007, 10:55:51 am »

That wouldn't save much if any water, I suspect.

Well if you had a creek or river in your back yard...

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2007, 10:59:05 am »
I just recently bought a rechargeable, cordless, electric lawn-mower, since a conventional lawn mower pollutes as much air in one hour as 40 late model cars running simultaneously.

It's awesome. It has the power to mulch my entire lawn and I don't have to worry about fuel, spark plugs, oil, etc; and it's as quiet as a vacuum cleaner.
These machines are not quite ready for lawns bigger than mine though....yet.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2007, 10:59:38 am »

That wouldn't save much if any water, I suspect.
its more the electricity i was thinking about, the water goes back into the system, its the reliance on labour saving devices that is the issue.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2007, 11:02:19 am »
I just recently bought a rechargeable, cordless, electric lawn-mower, since a conventional lawn mower pollutes as much air in one hour as 40 late model cars running simultaneously.

It's awesome. It has the power to mulch my entire lawn and I don't have to worry about fuel, spark plugs, oil, etc; and it's as quiet as a vacuum cleaner.

and you think this is better for the environment
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2007, 11:04:08 am »

How big is the lawn?

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2007, 11:16:57 am »
I just recently bought a rechargeable, cordless, electric lawn-mower, since a conventional lawn mower pollutes as much air in one hour as 40 late model cars running simultaneously.

It's awesome. It has the power to mulch my entire lawn and I don't have to worry about fuel, spark plugs, oil, etc; and it's as quiet as a vacuum cleaner.
These machines are not quite ready for lawns bigger than mine though....yet.

...except for the battery is a major environmental hazard once it's useful life is up. :dunno

And I think you meant 2 stroke lawn mowers polute more. I have only ever used 4 stroke engine mowers.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2007, 11:32:00 am »
its irrelevant anyway as its not saving any pollution in the first place, the energy to power it is created somewhere, likely from fossil fuel, so its polluting the air ,just not out of the exhaust of the mower but from the exhaust of the power station.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2007, 11:35:08 am »

I would bet it's making less... the power plants emit a far more controlled exhaust than a random two stroke lawnmower engine.

The 40 late model car figure seems a bit over the top to me but the electric mower, my intuition tells me, would be less pollutive overall.  Especially given that it is only useful on a small scale.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2007, 11:37:14 am »
and you think this is better for the environment

Isn't the atmosphere part of our environment?  More info on lawn mower exhaust : http://www.greengrasscutters.com/id7.html

...except for the battery is a major environmental hazard once it's useful life is up. :dunno

Batteries can be recycled, reused. So it's more an exhaust issue. There's no regulation on gas-powered lawn-mower motors...hence, they spew a lot of crap into the air.

I understand nothing is perfect. It's about balance.

How big is the lawn?

I believe it's less than a 1/4 acre.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 11:42:09 am by mr.Curmudgeon »

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2007, 11:38:38 am »

Does that include the space the house occupies?  I'm looking at alternatives too, though I did just spend $120 to get my mower fixed.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2007, 11:41:39 am »
No, it's a decent sized lawn. The mower runs for about 45mins or so. I had time to go over certain areas twice (tall grass needed to be mulched several times)

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2007, 11:45:29 am »
and you think this is better for the environment

Isn't the atmosphere part of our environment?

my point is that you're displacing the pollution not removing it.its coming from the power station not from your back yard. the only way to truly have an effect is to use a manual lawn mower.

regarding power stations being less polluting for the energy they produce than acrappy lawnmower, is im sure true, but add to this the fact that national grids waste a collosal amount of the enegy they produce its still not at all efficient.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2007, 11:46:08 am »
Sounds bigger than my lawn, then.  My whole lot is .27 acres, including the house, shed, driveways, brick path, and an area with no grass (pine trees).  I'll look into these mowers when my current one finally bites it.

Or maybe a hand mower, if I can find one.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2007, 11:47:56 am »


Or maybe a hand mower, if I can find one.
what about a goat? removes the lawnmowing altogether
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2007, 11:49:53 am »
Lead schmead, in a hundred years we'll all be dead.
are you saying,'cos i'll be dead why should i care about what happens in a hundred years' or do you think the whole human race will be gone?
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2007, 11:54:00 am »
After 5 years of owning it, I finally tuned up my lawn mower last weekend.  I'm surprised the poor little bugger even started.  Saved a lot of money doing it all myself, but now I have to figure out what to do with the oil.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2007, 11:54:33 am »
Everyone participating in this thread will be gone.


so you dont have children i take it?
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2007, 11:54:38 am »
I'll look into these mowers when my current one finally bites it.

For the record, I bought The Homelite UT13122. Consumer Reports rated it well, and people raved about it around the web. It's pretty much exactly like the top-of-the-line $400 Black & Decker CMM1200, but it's cheaper. ($300)

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2007, 11:55:58 am »
I tried 3 times to tune mine up last year, made little difference.  Finally a couple weeks ago I brought it to a hardware store and they found the timing switch and the intake gasket were both gone.  So I could have tried 3 more times and not gotten it running well.

Consumer Reports can bite me, I've used them for reference multiple times and always came out regretting it.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2007, 11:57:43 am »
they found the timing switch and the intake gasket were both gone

I hope you catch the ---daisies--- that stole them.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2007, 12:35:22 pm »
From what I understand, though, pretty soon they won't be selling incandescent bulbs in California anymore.

Sure, we save some energy upfront, but pay for it in increased disposal costs.

I thought mercury was bad...  Is this a valid comment, or is it a wash?
But wasn't it fun to think you won the lottery, just for a second there???

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2007, 12:40:06 pm »
it pains me that i live in a unit and cant compost. when i lived in my house with my sister we would compost all food scraps and recycle. it got that really we needed the recycle picked up weekly and the regular garbage once a fortnight or less...

Sure you can.  Get a small container and store it under your sink.  Better yet, add a colony of red worms to it.

http://www.cityfarmer.org/wormcomp61.html

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2007, 12:49:21 pm »
it pains me that i live in a unit and cant compost. when i lived in my house with my sister we would compost all food scraps and recycle. it got that really we needed the recycle picked up weekly and the regular garbage once a fortnight or less...

Sure you can.  Get a small container and store it under your sink.  Better yet, add a colony of red worms to it.

http://www.cityfarmer.org/wormcomp61.html

Nothing like a keeping a cesspool right in your kitchen.  :applaud:

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2007, 12:54:03 pm »
Just remember.... you can make your life miserable and obsessed with energy conservation and recycling... and the net effect is zero.

India and China are rapidly becoming modern nations and those guys are gonna suck resources down like we taught them to.

Enjoy life, leave the lights on.

but some of us have children that we care about so we dont want to act like you
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2007, 12:55:24 pm »
Just remember.... you can make your life miserable and obsessed with energy conservation and recycling... and the net effect is zero.

India and China are rapidly becoming modern nations and those guys are gonna suck resources down like we taught them to.

Enjoy life, leave the lights on.

but some of us have children that we care about so we dont want to act like you

Didn't you get the memo? The world does in fact revolve around pinballjim. ;)

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2007, 12:57:40 pm »
Just remember.... you can make your life miserable and obsessed with energy conservation and recycling... and the net effect is zero.

India and China are rapidly becoming modern nations and those guys are gonna suck resources down like we taught them to.

Enjoy life, leave the lights on.

but some of us have children that we care about so we dont want to act like you

Didn't you get the memo? The world does in fact revolve around pinballjim. ;)

 :laugh2:
sorry shardian my emails been playing up it didnt come through yet, thanks for the info ;)
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2007, 01:09:37 pm »
Nope, it apparently revolves around Polaris's children.

Sorry, jack, I ain't gonna inconvenience myself so your rugrats will have an average temperature 0.01 degrees celsius lower than it would have been naturally.


just the one child, and yes moron i do love her enough to want for her not to suffer because of selfish ---punks--- like you.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2007, 01:22:37 pm »
one child, and yes moron i do love her enough to want for her not to suffer because of selfish ---punks--- like you.

How are your motivations not selfish?


to point out your obvious lack of  understanding of the English language 'selfish' deriving from self, im talking about my daughter thats not me(my self) someone else .get it.
and youll find you're misunderstanding my point anyway, parents will initially use this argument particularly with other parents who use the phrase we'll all be dead by then, saying in response 'but your kids may not be' . see its a way of tying that person into the time when the health of the planet will affect the inhabitants of it. i want the planet to be healthy for everyone not just the pocket of air around my daughter. how does what you argue make any sense, yes i want a healthy planet for my daughter so she can enjoy her life with everyone else's children. you've described yourself as selfish , dont try and make me out to be selfish with idiotic arguments.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2007, 01:37:58 pm »
Does anyone else think that pinballjim is just HowardC's alternate identity for discussing non-gaming issues??? ;D

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2007, 01:42:09 pm »
thats right im selfish ,becuse i want the world to be better for everyone.
whereas youre not selfish, you only care about yourself.
and just because you cant work it out, my daughters children will be around in 100 years as will others , i very selfishly, would like people to think of the whole future population and the effect our lives have on them.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2007, 01:42:52 pm »
Does anyone else think that pinballjim is just HowardC's alternate identity for discussing non-gaming issues??? ;D
not wishing to be too rude, i just think hes not very clever
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2007, 01:45:42 pm »

There are a lot of people who have trouble seeing far enough outside of themselves to be able to do something positive for reasons other than their own sense of accomplishment.  I've heard that quite a bit...

...the whole "well, even if I feed the hungry, it's still selfish as I'm doing it to make myself feel good about feeding the hungry, not doing it to actually feed the hungry" concept.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2007, 02:03:01 pm »


Polaris wants us to forgo all modern conveniences and disrupt our daily lives just because it -might- make a difference in the weather in 100 years. 

when did i say this?
dont assume mate ,it makes an ass out of u and me.  :laugh2: particularly you.

and you really dont understand what the word selfish means, just because i may be involved with the statement does not make me selfish within that statement.
example, i would like to give all my money away
by your logic the 'i' in that sentence is selfish because they include themselves(i) in the sentence, regardless that the act described is selfless.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2007, 02:10:39 pm »
Tell you what.  Ride your bike over to my place, and you can wash all my clothes by hand.


well ya got me dude, i dont think i can reach the intellectual summit of your argument
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2007, 02:19:20 pm »

I think if many people wanted to be truly green they'd not have kids.  Too many idiots out there, multiplying faster than the reasonable people.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2007, 02:26:20 pm »

I think most of us would draw the line at pinballjim's dirty underpants.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2007, 02:33:52 pm »
Oh, so wait, you have a line of personal inconvenience that you're unwilling to cross?  Well, golly gee, so much for being committed to your daughter's future.


what are you talking about?
you came out with some trite nonsense about me doing your washing, so i was making fun of you by saying i wasnt clever enough to understand you. but unfortunately you lack the ability to see the irony in the post ,which was glaringly obvious.

chad yes i totally agree, i have one child and am torn as to wether it is right for me to have more, as you say in a world where many are so casual about it maybe it is my place to say that i should have no more. it would be reasonable to suggest that in a world with a stable population a couple should bear 2 children on average to sustain the population, as im sure youre aware though its gaining rapidly so population control is needed ,but for example as in china where it has been tried it is very unpopular and hellish to enforce

EDIT lazy typing sorry.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 02:35:55 pm by polaris »
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2007, 02:35:01 pm »

I think most of us would draw the line at pinballjim's dirty underpants.
my line is drawn well before that ;)
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2007, 02:38:18 pm »
The problem with reproduction enforcement like China is that the only one they can really punish is the child - which they did - and which is totally unfair to a child that committed no crime.

Basically, if we could prevent the stupid people from increasing their ranks, most issues would be solved by the natural tendency of the remaining people.  The herd has become too slow and stupid to be self sustaining.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2007, 02:55:40 pm »
The problem with reproduction enforcement like China is that the only one they can really punish is the child - which they did - and which is totally unfair to a child that committed no crime.

yep indeed, they did punish the parents but it ultimately led to the children being more affected than anything


Basically, if we could prevent the stupid people from increasing their ranks, most issues would be solved by the natural tendency of the remaining people.  The herd has become too slow and stupid to be self sustaining.
cant agree more, and of course the balloning nature of this, its not 2 making 2, its 2 making 8,then so on . sorry to sound a snob but it is the lower end of society that is becoming the larger proprtion, which is economically unsustainable
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2007, 04:12:40 pm »
sorry to sound a snob but it is the lower end of society that is becoming the larger proprtion, which is economically unsustainable

A while back, in a thread somewhere around here, I suggested sterilizing the lower classes.

It didn't go over well.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2007, 05:32:27 pm »
Oh wow.... not only are you an idiot, you're an elitist idiot that considers yourself to be on the top end of the gene pool.

i feel elitist when talking to people like yourself but again you make assumptions about me, that the lower classes in western society are growing disproportionately is fact, not my opinion.

and call me an idiot all you want, its you who cant make any valid points or understand the meaning of basic words like selfish for example

sorry to sound a snob but it is the lower end of society that is becoming the larger proprtion, which is economically unsustainable

A while back, in a thread somewhere around here, I suggested sterilizing the lower classes.

It didn't go over well.
it is something that comes across as ethnic cleansing, whereas it has very strongly debatable points that are valid, im not sure i advocate it personally or want to get into it here, too much typing to be fun
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2007, 05:42:09 pm »
Well, some getting in a snit over this.  Kinda following Chad, I think everyone is selfish. It's the level from which the directive is issued that is key.


but hang it. i will! youve spurred me on!  Excellent danny!


PBJ: I think it's very likely your...okay, well, maybe not yours if they aren't healthy...but many peoples children, currently under say 15, may live to 100 or so. I plan on being around for at least a few centuries. But I think the endeavor is worth it, regardless.

Ed: hah! As have I with similar experience.

As curmudgeon (as well as I have) said, it's a matter of balance. Each person has to find that balance relative to their experience. The important part is that they try.
Another thing to consider is what you eat. People act like organic is this unnatural thing...well, that's cos it hasn't been the norm for several decades. But it's coming back around. Health in general is a factor in conservation. It's a part of that balance.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 05:45:08 pm by shorthair »

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2007, 06:04:10 pm »

Another thing to consider is what you eat. People act like organic is this unnatural thing...well, that's cos it hasn't been the norm for several decades. But it's coming back around. Health in general is a factor in conservation. It's a part of that balance.
is this the case in the us is it?, in the uk organic food is a huge thing, its more costly and purchased by those who can afford it ,generally the higher social classes who are generally more concerned with their health.

obviously i say that at the risk of sounding elitist ,but some around here are unaware that i studied dietetics and human nutrition so have a good understanding of how a persons social class can affect their behaviour
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2007, 06:15:20 pm »
I plan on being around for at least a few centuries.

200 years of tranqhair. Leave the lights on.
I've got a fever...

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2007, 06:55:14 pm »
I plan on being around for at least a few centuries.

200 years of tranqhair. Leave the lights on.

Ahm a beast, ah noo.


polaris: organic/naturally-raised/less processed is more affordable than that here, actually. But there's still a stigma about it. It's still a buzzword.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2007, 07:15:22 pm »

polaris: organic/naturally-raised/less processed is more affordable than that here, actually. But there's still a stigma about it. It's still a buzzword.
from what i understand food is cheaper generally in the us due to your capacity for farming so it makes sense organic food is more affordable, in the uk if you get me its a niche product youre paying a premium for.
im surprised it has a stigma as you say as i percieve americans as having a vaster knowledge on health issues generally than the brits.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2007, 08:20:19 pm »
Organic, orschmanic.

I want irradiated, bio-engineered food that makes it cheaper for me to eat strawberries in February.

Oh, and if a few less people die from e. coli in the deal, even better.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2007, 08:32:26 pm »
I don't eat fruit often. BUT, still tis not necessary to make it inexpensive.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2007, 08:49:01 pm »
Teh internets cause pollution.  All those servers, sucking up all the 'lectricity.  Stop posting, burn your routers.  That is all.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2007, 09:25:04 pm »

Oh, and if a few less people die from e. coli in the deal, even better.
pesticides dont kill bacteria and e coli poisoning would be down to a person not washing after using the toilet as it comes from animals digestive systems.

I don't eat fruit often. BUT, still tis not necessary to make it inexpensive.
do you mean its not the price that stops you eating fruit, in the uk the price of organic food is prohibitive to many.
and if you plan to be here for centuries , you should eat fruit
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2007, 10:07:40 pm »

Oh, and if a few less people die from e. coli in the deal, even better.

pesticides dont kill bacteria and e coli poisoning would be down to a person not washing after using the toilet as it comes from animals digestive systems.


Who said anything about pesticides?  I'm talking about irradation in my example.

Hello?  McFly?  Beuller?  Is this thing on?
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2007, 02:32:19 am »
Radiation denatures the food. I don't even use a microwave anymore, even for water. There are those who thing water is a 'crystaline' structure, that can be ordered and disordered. Actually, there's bonafide research, recently, that implies why homeopathic solutions work - ever after being completely strained of the herbal, etc, material - due to zero point energy resonances.

polaris: I'm a protein type. That means I'm a fast oxidizer. Sugars of any kind give me a jolt, so I don't have much in any particular way. That's not surprising you'd say that about fruit, though. Familiar with that view.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2007, 05:15:55 am »
it pains me that i live in a unit and cant compost. when i lived in my house with my sister we would compost all food scraps and recycle. it got that really we needed the recycle picked up weekly and the regular garbage once a fortnight or less...

Sure you can.  Get a small container and store it under your sink.  Better yet, add a colony of red worms to it.

http://www.cityfarmer.org/wormcomp61.html

Nothing like a keeping a cesspool right in your kitchen.  :applaud:

yep. i live with a chick. it just aint gonna happen. besides, what do i do with the compost? i aint got no garden!


ROUGHING UP THE SUSPECT SINCE 1981

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2007, 05:16:33 am »
Tell you what.  Ride your bike over to my place, and you can wash all my clothes by hand.



 :laugh2:


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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2007, 05:51:04 am »
Radiation denatures the food. I don't even use a microwave anymore, even for water. There are those who thing water is a 'crystaline' structure, that can be ordered and disordered. Actually, there's bonafide research, recently, that implies why homeopathic solutions work - ever after being completely strained of the herbal, etc, material - due to zero point energy resonances.

...

And here I thought  hippies had long hair.  Go figure.

Quote
The Food and Drug Administration has approved irradiation of meat and poultry and allows its use for a variety of other foods, including fresh fruits and vegetables, and spices. The agency determined that the process is safe and effective in decreasing or eliminating harmful bacteria. Irradiation als
o reduces spoilage bacteria, insects and parasites, and in certain fruits and vegetables it inhibits sprouting and delays ripening. For example, irradiated strawberries stay unspoiled up to three weeks, versus three to five days for untreated berries.

Food irradiation is allowed in nearly 40 countries and is endorsed by the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association and many other organizations.

Irradiation does not make foods radioactive, just as an airport luggage scanner does not make luggage radioactive. Nor does it cause harmful chemical changes. The process may cause a small loss of nutrients but no more so than with other processing methods such as cooking, canning, or heat pasteurization. Federal rules require irradiated foods to be labeled as such to distinguish them from non-irradiated foods.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2007, 06:59:59 am »
I plan on being around for at least a few centuries.

200 years of tranqhair. Leave the lights on.

* CheffoJeffo runs downstairs to power up all of the games and turn on the lights, televisions, laundry and air conditioning

Thanks, MC, for the heads-up.

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« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 07:14:28 am by CheffoJeffo »
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2007, 07:54:09 am »
Radiation denatures the food.

Microwaves fall into the radio portion of the spectrum.  It is non-ionising and thus leaves no lingering effect on the food.  Most credible studies state that a microwave does not remove any more nutrients than other methods and removes less than many methods (e.g. boiling).

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2007, 09:02:08 am »

Who said anything about pesticides?  I'm talking about irradation in my example.

Hello?  McFly?  Beuller?  Is this thing on?

im hearing you, its just that youre not making sense, irradiation wont stop e coli poisoning either, and i find it bizarre you crave the less healthy alternative

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2007, 09:19:36 am »
polaris: I'm a protein type. That means I'm a fast oxidizer. Sugars of any kind give me a jolt, so I don't have much in any particular way. That's not surprising you'd say that about fruit, though. Familiar with that view.
hmm, not sure what you mean by fast oxidiser and protein type, but i would say to you,
protein is needed in small amounts by the body and therefore from the diet, say 100g of meat is more than enough for a day, and if by sugars you include carbohydrates , you need to change your diet completely as i would say its shortening your life more than anything, and again friut yes, try to eat 2-3 pieces a day
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2007, 11:26:53 am »
it pains me that i live in a unit and cant compost. when i lived in my house with my sister we would compost all food scraps and recycle. it got that really we needed the recycle picked up weekly and the regular garbage once a fortnight or less...

Sure you can.  Get a small container and store it under your sink.  Better yet, add a colony of red worms to it.

http://www.cityfarmer.org/wormcomp61.html

Nothing like a keeping a cesspool right in your kitchen.  :applaud:

yep. i live with a chick. it just aint gonna happen. besides, what do i do with the compost? i aint got no garden!

Vegetation isn't a cesspool.  That's what goes in this.

You can grow your weed in it.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2007, 11:53:01 am »

We tried it in the yard and it attracted way too many animals, digging everything up and making a huge mess.  Ended up only composting yard waste.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2007, 01:07:13 pm »
I see Mr. I Don't Know How to Use Irony is still polluting this thread.

"irradiation wont stop e coli poisoning either"

BZZZZT!  Wrong!

id be interested to know why you think im wrong here and with what qualifications you make the claim?


How much other wrong information are you going to spew?  So far we've had bad advice, self-serving revisionism, advocation of genocide, and ignorance stated as fact.

i havent advocated genocide and i find your accusation offensive, cheers.
im not sure of much advice ive given here at all but id again like to see what you perceive as bad advice and at no point have i stated im ignorant, and self serving , we've talked of your confusion with the word selfish before.

and that i cant see irony from you, i just find funny.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 01:09:18 pm by polaris »
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2007, 01:14:53 pm »
Jesus told me in a dream last night that he doesn't care for this thread.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2007, 01:21:26 pm »
Jesus told me in a dream last night that he doesn't care for this thread.
shouldnt he be out walking on water or whatever it is he does ;)
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2007, 01:21:58 pm »

Turning water into fossil fuels.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2007, 01:22:53 pm »

Turning water into fossil fuels.
i knew him and bush had something going on
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #82 on: May 16, 2007, 01:25:12 pm »

The only bush that Jesus has on his speed dial is the Burning Bush.


(and maybe the singing bush from The Three Amigos)

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #83 on: May 16, 2007, 01:29:47 pm »

The only bush that Jesus has on his speed dial is the Burning Bush.


(and maybe the singing bush from The Three Amigos)
i thought he was part of the holy trinity ,father, son ,holy ghost , bush senior ,bush junior and jesus , have i got this wrong  ;)

i really liked the three amigos
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2007, 01:38:01 pm »
Bush senior wasn't all that bad.  He wasn't all that great but he didn't do anything to deserve being lumped in with his son.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2007, 01:50:57 pm »
Go read up some USDA literature on the subject of food irradiation.  The fact that it kills e. coli and other microbial parasites is a HUGE BENEFIT.

I'm simply having a hard relating to someone that disbelieves it.  It's scientific fact.  It's a given.  There's no debate over it.


(Go look up the definition of irony before you use the word again.  I never said I attempted irony, you simply misused the term previously.  Is it ironic that 99% of people that use the term irony use it incorrectly?  Things that make you go hmmm)


just so you know dude i was cheif microbiologist for a food company before i went to university to study human nutrition and dietetics, i dont really need to do any reading on food.
irradiation may destroy the e coli bacteria but it will not protect you from e coli poisoning.
you are talking of food spoilage bacteria and im not aware that e coli is a food spoilage bacteria as we are concerned with it. e coli is present in the gut of animals so is more likely introduced to the food at the preparation stage , likely to be after food has been irradiated and is exacerbated by poor storage conditions very often. you are more likely to give yourself e coli poisoning than getting it from organic food.
those are facts too, just more relevant ones.

and i dont need lessons on English either , my publisher feels i have a perfect grip of irony, maybe too strong a grip for some.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 01:56:27 pm by polaris »
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2007, 01:54:10 pm »
Bush senior wasn't all that bad.  He wasn't all that great but he didn't do anything to deserve being lumped in with his son.

i cant say i remember much of him, Reagan seemed to be a lot more in our news in his time,i couldnt really relate bush senior to anything i dont think, did he have the first go at saddam so to speak?
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2007, 01:55:32 pm »

He was President when we had to run Saddam out of Kuwait.  That was the first really high profile run at Saddam.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2007, 01:58:20 pm »

He was President when we had to run Saddam out of Kuwait.  That was the first really high profile run at Saddam.

there we go i do remember him for something then :cheers:
he didnt make much other impact in his presidency i take it?
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2007, 02:03:48 pm »
Not tons, he only had 1 term and in a lot of ways was tying up Reagan's ends.  No one knew what was going to happen with the Cold War just about over, and his term was mostly occupied with the first Gulf War.  If I had to guess, his biggest domestic impact was his involvement with NAFTA, which wasn't officially put into place until Clinton was in office.  IIRC he also put Clarence Thomas and one other on the Supreme Court, can't remember the second one offhand.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #90 on: May 16, 2007, 02:09:38 pm »

Well, seeing as how many people at the time were calling NAFTA great for Mexico, fairly crappy for Canada, and a night in a cell with Big Horny Jim the Sheep Rapist for the US, I can see why he wasn't always so high on it all the time.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #91 on: May 16, 2007, 02:13:13 pm »
chad i wanna come play with you. pinballjims making my head hurt
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #92 on: May 16, 2007, 02:14:27 pm »

He does that.   :-\

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #93 on: May 16, 2007, 02:22:06 pm »
This thread has been amusing...the amount of mis-information and hand waving made me think I was watching the republican candidate debate there for a minute  :laugh2:

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #94 on: May 16, 2007, 02:28:05 pm »

That's why Red Dwarf had 4691 irradiated haggids.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #95 on: May 16, 2007, 02:41:06 pm »
I grew up in apple country washington state.....food irradiation is nearly universal for orchard products.  It's very effective at killing BOTH microbes that might cause spoilage as well as any pathogenic microbes.  Of course that doesn't alleviate the need for proper food handling down the line (ie during transit, preparation, etc), but to argue that it's not effective at all is just silly.

Oh, and that mumbo jumbo about water,microwaves, and holistic stuff?   :banghead:

stop eating cheetos and pickup some fresh produce......but don't worry so much bout boiling your water in the microwave...as long as you don't superheat it and burn yourself  ;D

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #96 on: May 16, 2007, 02:43:58 pm »

I superheated and burned myself with tomato sauce once.  Ow.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #97 on: May 16, 2007, 03:11:08 pm »
pbj
e coli comes from poo poo , if someone touches your food after making poo poo , youll get ill.
food manufacture is rarely free of human interference at any stage.
e coli is more likely to come from a person handling the food than from the food itself.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #98 on: May 16, 2007, 03:11:33 pm »

and i dont need lessons on English either , my publisher feels i have a perfect grip of irony, maybe too strong a grip for some.


No.... I think that is more of a paradox.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #99 on: May 16, 2007, 03:13:13 pm »

and i dont need lessons on English either , my publisher feels i have a perfect grip of irony, maybe too strong a grip for some.


No.... I think that is more of a paradox.
sorry dude youve lost me there
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #100 on: May 16, 2007, 03:29:45 pm »
pbj
e coli comes from poo poo , if someone touches your food after making poo poo , youll get ill.
food manufacture is rarely free of human interference at any stage.
e coli is more likely to come from a person handling the food than from the food itself.


eh, the most common source of e.coli and other coliform bacteria isn't human fecal matter, but rather animal livestock fecal matter somehow coming into contact with the food process cycle. 

and frankly, 99.9% of strains of e.coli are harmless. 

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #101 on: May 16, 2007, 03:42:30 pm »

If polaris didn't live overseas, I'd mail him a set of clown shoes.


and a Jack in the Box burger  ;)

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #102 on: May 16, 2007, 04:14:24 pm »

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #103 on: May 16, 2007, 04:15:11 pm »

and i dont need lessons on English either , my publisher feels i have a perfect grip of irony, maybe too strong a grip for some.


Your <ahem> "publisher" may or may not have a strong grip on irony, but he must certainly have a grip on editing punctuation and spelling. I cannot imagine there would be any chance of your getting published if he didn't.

It would be much less difficult to approach taking you seriously if you had some semblance of command over the language you are typing.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #104 on: May 16, 2007, 04:20:44 pm »

and i dont need lessons on English either , my publisher feels i have a perfect grip of irony, maybe too strong a grip for some.


Your <ahem> "publisher" may or may not have a strong grip on irony, but he must certainly have a grip on editing punctuation and spelling. I cannot imagine there would be any chance of your getting published if he didn't.

It would be much less difficult to approach taking you seriously if you had some semblance of command over the language you are typing.


Thanks. 
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #105 on: May 16, 2007, 04:27:47 pm »
Thanks for the effort guys.  I regularly spill some gas while pumping it into my f-150.  I keep the tires low pressure so they make less noise.  I have my thermostat in my house set at 68 in the summer, 78 in the winter.  I yell at my kids for leaving lights off.  I drink  a 12 pack of coke a day, and throw all the cans and bottles in the woods behind my house.  I over fertilize my lawn so it looks nice and green.  Who cares if I can walk across the pond?  I leave all 10 of my TV's on and loud so I don't have to go into a room and think.  I wash my socks seperately so they don't get lost.  I change the oil in my car every 3K miles and pour the old oil in the storm sewer.  I give the EPA helicopters flying over the river here the finger.

=J
* DrewKaree marvels at Jack's superpowers :notworthy:


I just recently bought a rechargeable, cordless, electric lawn-mower, since a conventional lawn mower pollutes as much air in one hour as 40 late model cars running simultaneously.


Much like Catholics light a candle for someone, I've lit a tire fire in your honor


There's no regulation on gas-powered lawn-mower motors...hence, they spew a lot of crap into the air.


I'd bet you spew more crap into the air than a lawn mower.  I'm reporting you to the EPA ;D

After 5 years of owning it, I finally tuned up my lawn mower last weekend.  I'm surprised the poor little bugger even started.  Saved a lot of money doing it all myself, but now I have to figure out what to do with the oil.

Airmail it to me.  You'll put money into the economy, the jet will waste tremendous amounts of fuel to get your used oil to me, and it will help my tire fire last longer when I pour it onto the fire.

Just remember.... you can make your life miserable and obsessed with energy conservation and recycling... and the net effect is zero.

India and China are rapidly becoming modern nations and those guys are gonna suck resources down like we taught them to.

Enjoy life, leave the lights on.

but some of us have children that we care about so we dont want to act like you

I have kids I care about.  I lit the tire fire partially to keep them warm.  Sure it's 70 degrees out, but you can't risk getting a chill and coming down with a cold, right?  It's the responsible way to raise children.

Just remember.... you can make your life miserable and obsessed with energy conservation and recycling... and the net effect is zero.

India and China are rapidly becoming modern nations and those guys are gonna suck resources down like we taught them to.

Enjoy life, leave the lights on.

but some of us have children that we care about so we dont want to act like you

Didn't you get the memo? The world does in fact revolve around pinballjim. ;)

This in fact is incorrect.  Jacktucky has his own gravitational pull, therefore it revolves around him.  We're just along for the ride.

one child, and yes moron i do love her enough to want for her not to suffer because of selfish ---punks--- like you.

How are your motivations not selfish?


to point out your obvious lack of  understanding of the English language

...seems like someone's trying to decide if the kettle is a dark enough shade to qualify for black

Polaris wants us to forgo all modern conveniences and disrupt our daily lives just because it -might- make a difference in the weather in 100 years. 
when did i say this?
dont assume mate ,it makes an ass out of u and me.  :laugh2: particularly you.

The BBC polled eleventy brazillion second-graders.  100% said your joke was teh lamezorz, and that adding "particularly you" multiplied the lameness by a factor of eleventy.

sorry to sound a snob but it is the lower end of society that is becoming the larger proprtion, which is economically unsustainable

A while back, in a thread somewhere around here, I suggested sterilizing the lower classes.

It didn't go over well.

I thought it went over SMASHINGLY Ed!  I see a few problems with it, but I'm all for it.  I will miss going to truck pulls and monster truck demonstrations, but at least I won't have to watch NASCAR or wrestling ;D

I plan on being around for at least a few centuries.

200 years of tranqhair. Leave the lights on.

Cowbell, I showed a rep from Motel 6 this thread.  He'd like to buy your advertising slogan


Oh, and if a few less people die from e. coli in the deal, even better.

pesticides dont kill bacteria and e coli poisoning would be down to a person not washing after using the toilet as it comes from animals digestive systems.


Who said anything about pesticides?  I'm talking about irradation in my example.

Hello?  McFly?  Beuller?  Is this thing on?

Hippies don't believe in reading EVERY word.  Saves on eyeball movement, which studies have shown will cause less heat and greenhouse gasses.  It's on the internet, so you know it has to be true :dunno

Radiation denatures the food. I don't even use a microwave anymore, even for water. There are those who thing water is a 'crystaline' structure, that can be ordered and disordered. Actually, there's bonafide research, recently, that implies why homeopathic solutions work - ever after being completely strained of the herbal, etc, material - due to zero point energy resonances.

...

And here I thought  hippies had long hair.  Go figure.

Quote
The Food and Drug Administration has approved irradiation of meat and poultry and allows its use for a variety of other foods, including fresh fruits and vegetables, and spices. The agency determined that the process is safe and effective in decreasing or eliminating harmful bacteria. Irradiation als
o reduces spoilage bacteria, insects and parasites, and in certain fruits and vegetables it inhibits sprouting and delays ripening. For example, irradiated strawberries stay unspoiled up to three weeks, versus three to five days for untreated berries.

Food irradiation is allowed in nearly 40 countries and is endorsed by the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association and many other organizations.

Irradiation does not make foods radioactive, just as an airport luggage scanner does not make luggage radioactive. Nor does it cause harmful chemical changes. The process may cause a small loss of nutrients but no more so than with other processing methods such as cooking, canning, or heat pasteurization. Federal rules require irradiated foods to be labeled as such to distinguish them from non-irradiated foods.

Go chain yourself to a tree and sing a song, wontcha?




I plan on being around for at least a few centuries.

200 years of tranqhair. Leave the lights on.

* CheffoJeffo runs downstairs to power up all of the games and turn on the lights, televisions, laundry and air conditioning

Thanks, MC, for the heads-up.

 :cheers:

CJ, need me to add a few more tires to the fire for ya?


Man, I'm gonna go rub my crystals on my magnets for extra healing power.


Keep your "crystals" in your pants


and i dont need lessons on English either , my publisher feels i have a perfect grip of irony, maybe too strong a grip for some.


Your <ahem> "publisher" may or may not have a strong grip on irony, but he must certainly have a grip on editing punctuation and spelling. I cannot imagine there would be any chance of your getting published if he didn't.

It would be much less difficult to approach taking you seriously if you had some semblance of command over the language you are typing.

Nos, you're NEVER gonna get published like Polaris the science-y guy if you don't get a "perfect grip of irony" like he's got, even if you ARE right ;D


Polaris, perhaps you'd do yourself some good to check out this neat new thing called "the internet".  Look for "e coli" and "spinach".  See if anything pops up.  See if they attribute it to some guy droppin' a deuce and then failing to wash his hands, or if it had to do with NON-human (I'm referring to ANIMALS, since it's fairly obvious you aren't able to keep up with the conversation DESPITE being a "food scientist" and all) issues.  Also, mopping floors at the local grocery store when someone drops a jar of salsa doesn't make you a "food scientist" :laugh2: 

For someone who claims to have a job requiring that much brainpower, it certainly doesn't translate very well to the printed word :dunno  Methinks it's along the lines of our FBI janitor who was saving the world from the likes of Harpal :laugh2:
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #106 on: May 16, 2007, 04:31:20 pm »

There's no regulation on gas-powered lawn-mower motors...hence, they spew a lot of crap into the air.


I'd bet you spew more crap into the air than a lawn mower.  I'm reporting you to the EPA ;D


Two comments: 

1)  Wow, I was totally spared.
2)  The above quote:   :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #107 on: May 16, 2007, 04:32:06 pm »
Thanks for the effort guys.  I regularly spill some gas while pumping it into my f-150.  I keep the tires low pressure so they make less noise.  I have my thermostat in my house set at 68 in the summer, 78 in the winter.  I yell at my kids for leaving lights off.  I drink  a 12 pack of coke a day, and throw all the cans and bottles in the woods behind my house.  I over fertilize my lawn so it looks nice and green.  Who cares if I can walk across the pond?  I leave all 10 of my TV's on and loud so I don't have to go into a room and think.  I wash my socks seperately so they don't get lost.  I change the oil in my car every 3K miles and pour the old oil in the storm sewer.  I give the EPA helicopters flying over the river here the finger.

=J
* DrewKaree marvels at Jack's superpowers :notworthy:


I just recently bought a rechargeable, cordless, electric lawn-mower, since a conventional lawn mower pollutes as much air in one hour as 40 late model cars running simultaneously.


Much like Catholics light a candle for someone, I've lit a tire fire in your honor


There's no regulation on gas-powered lawn-mower motors...hence, they spew a lot of crap into the air.


I'd bet you spew more crap into the air than a lawn mower.  I'm reporting you to the EPA ;D

After 5 years of owning it, I finally tuned up my lawn mower last weekend.  I'm surprised the poor little bugger even started.  Saved a lot of money doing it all myself, but now I have to figure out what to do with the oil.

Airmail it to me.  You'll put money into the economy, the jet will waste tremendous amounts of fuel to get your used oil to me, and it will help my tire fire last longer when I pour it onto the fire.

Just remember.... you can make your life miserable and obsessed with energy conservation and recycling... and the net effect is zero.

India and China are rapidly becoming modern nations and those guys are gonna suck resources down like we taught them to.

Enjoy life, leave the lights on.

but some of us have children that we care about so we dont want to act like you

I have kids I care about.  I lit the tire fire partially to keep them warm.  Sure it's 70 degrees out, but you can't risk getting a chill and coming down with a cold, right?  It's the responsible way to raise children.

Just remember.... you can make your life miserable and obsessed with energy conservation and recycling... and the net effect is zero.

India and China are rapidly becoming modern nations and those guys are gonna suck resources down like we taught them to.

Enjoy life, leave the lights on.

but some of us have children that we care about so we dont want to act like you

Didn't you get the memo? The world does in fact revolve around pinballjim. ;)

This in fact is incorrect.  Jacktucky has his own gravitational pull, therefore it revolves around him.  We're just along for the ride.

one child, and yes moron i do love her enough to want for her not to suffer because of selfish ---punks--- like you.

How are your motivations not selfish?


to point out your obvious lack of  understanding of the English language

...seems like someone's trying to decide if the kettle is a dark enough shade to qualify for black

Polaris wants us to forgo all modern conveniences and disrupt our daily lives just because it -might- make a difference in the weather in 100 years. 
when did i say this?
dont assume mate ,it makes an ass out of u and me.  :laugh2: particularly you.

The BBC polled eleventy brazillion second-graders.  100% said your joke was teh lamezorz, and that adding "particularly you" multiplied the lameness by a factor of eleventy.

sorry to sound a snob but it is the lower end of society that is becoming the larger proprtion, which is economically unsustainable

A while back, in a thread somewhere around here, I suggested sterilizing the lower classes.

It didn't go over well.

I thought it went over SMASHINGLY Ed!  I see a few problems with it, but I'm all for it.  I will miss going to truck pulls and monster truck demonstrations, but at least I won't have to watch NASCAR or wrestling ;D

I plan on being around for at least a few centuries.

200 years of tranqhair. Leave the lights on.

Cowbell, I showed a rep from Motel 6 this thread.  He'd like to buy your advertising slogan


Oh, and if a few less people die from e. coli in the deal, even better.

pesticides dont kill bacteria and e coli poisoning would be down to a person not washing after using the toilet as it comes from animals digestive systems.


Who said anything about pesticides?  I'm talking about irradation in my example.

Hello?  McFly?  Beuller?  Is this thing on?

Hippies don't believe in reading EVERY word.  Saves on eyeball movement, which studies have shown will cause less heat and greenhouse gasses.  It's on the internet, so you know it has to be true :dunno

Radiation denatures the food. I don't even use a microwave anymore, even for water. There are those who thing water is a 'crystaline' structure, that can be ordered and disordered. Actually, there's bonafide research, recently, that implies why homeopathic solutions work - ever after being completely strained of the herbal, etc, material - due to zero point energy resonances.

...

And here I thought  hippies had long hair.  Go figure.

Quote
The Food and Drug Administration has approved irradiation of meat and poultry and allows its use for a variety of other foods, including fresh fruits and vegetables, and spices. The agency determined that the process is safe and effective in decreasing or eliminating harmful bacteria. Irradiation als
o reduces spoilage bacteria, insects and parasites, and in certain fruits and vegetables it inhibits sprouting and delays ripening. For example, irradiated strawberries stay unspoiled up to three weeks, versus three to five days for untreated berries.

Food irradiation is allowed in nearly 40 countries and is endorsed by the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association and many other organizations.

Irradiation does not make foods radioactive, just as an airport luggage scanner does not make luggage radioactive. Nor does it cause harmful chemical changes. The process may cause a small loss of nutrients but no more so than with other processing methods such as cooking, canning, or heat pasteurization. Federal rules require irradiated foods to be labeled as such to distinguish them from non-irradiated foods.

Go chain yourself to a tree and sing a song, wontcha?




I plan on being around for at least a few centuries.

200 years of tranqhair. Leave the lights on.

* CheffoJeffo runs downstairs to power up all of the games and turn on the lights, televisions, laundry and air conditioning

Thanks, MC, for the heads-up.

 :cheers:

CJ, need me to add a few more tires to the fire for ya?


Man, I'm gonna go rub my crystals on my magnets for extra healing power.


Keep your "crystals" in your pants


and i dont need lessons on English either , my publisher feels i have a perfect grip of irony, maybe too strong a grip for some.


Your <ahem> "publisher" may or may not have a strong grip on irony, but he must certainly have a grip on editing punctuation and spelling. I cannot imagine there would be any chance of your getting published if he didn't.

It would be much less difficult to approach taking you seriously if you had some semblance of command over the language you are typing.

Nos, you're NEVER gonna get published like Polaris the science-y guy if you don't get a "perfect grip of irony" like he's got, even if you ARE right ;D


Polaris, perhaps you'd do yourself some good to check out this neat new thing called "the internet".  Look for "e coli" and "spinach".  See if anything pops up.  See if they attribute it to some guy droppin' a deuce and then failing to wash his hands, or if it had to do with NON-human (I'm referring to ANIMALS, since it's fairly obvious you aren't able to keep up with the conversation DESPITE being a "food scientist" and all) issues.  Also, mopping floors at the local grocery store when someone drops a jar of salsa doesn't make you a "food scientist" :laugh2: 

For someone who claims to have a job requiring that much brainpower, it certainly doesn't translate very well to the printed word :dunno  Methinks it's along the lines of our FBI janitor who was saving the world from the likes of Harpal :laugh2:

Go Drew!!!   

:applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
 :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #108 on: May 16, 2007, 05:34:01 pm »

I seriously think this is just about the best thread ever.


I must agree.  Now we just gotta keep it outta Post Hell


There's no regulation on gas-powered lawn-mower motors...hence, they spew a lot of crap into the air.


I'd bet you spew more crap into the air than a lawn mower.  I'm reporting you to the EPA ;D


Two comments: 

1)  Wow, I was totally spared.
2)  The above quote:   :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

1)  There was too much diddling around to get that post-fart done.  Last thing I wanted to do was diddle you too
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #109 on: May 16, 2007, 05:39:21 pm »
 

If polaris didn't live overseas, I'd mail him a set of clown shoes.


and a Jack in the Box burger  ;)

MMmmmm.... Ultimate Cheeseburger. I could go for one of those right about now.
I've got a fever...

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #110 on: May 16, 2007, 06:01:57 pm »

If polaris didn't live overseas, I'd mail him a set of clown shoes.


and a Jack in the Box burger  ;)

MMmmmm.... Ultimate Cheeseburger. I could go for one of those right about now.

I considered it, but I've already had my quota of fecal matter this week....just from reading this thread!

 ;D

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #111 on: May 16, 2007, 06:26:26 pm »
1)  There was too much diddling around to get that post-fart done.  Last thing I wanted to do was diddle you too

Did I date you in high school?

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #112 on: May 16, 2007, 08:46:00 pm »
drew i enjoy your ribbing so please let me defend myself on one point , the lame joke , yeah i know , its used lot in british comedy in a very sarcastic fashion , cheesy and lame, maybe purporting to being condescending for the sake of it if you see what i mean. :cheers:
and for the few who mentioned it, ahh the bitter sweet irony of my typing being so poor.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #113 on: May 16, 2007, 09:04:27 pm »
1)  There was too much diddling around to get that post-fart done.  Last thing I wanted to do was diddle you too

Did I date you in high school?

Holy CRAP that's a frightening thought!


and for the few who mentioned it, ahh the bitter sweet irony of my typing being so poor.


I think you're starting to get the hang of this irony thing ;)
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #114 on: May 16, 2007, 09:15:20 pm »

I think you're starting to get the hang of this irony thing ;)
i get my mum to do it usually, and the washing, that way she's destroying the planet, not me. ;)
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #115 on: May 16, 2007, 10:24:27 pm »

Quote
Ed_McCarron:
Go chain yourself to a tree and sing a song, wontcha?




No, he's really just a figure head. Or, another way, drew's been hangin out wi' da homies a little too much...in disguise, of course.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #116 on: May 16, 2007, 10:43:02 pm »
drew
i just wanted to respond to the last bit of your post, i just noticed it. its meaner than the other bits ;)
if i were given 3 samples of food and told that an e coli outbreak came from one of them ,it would be foolhardy not to test one of them because i was told it had been irradiated at some point in its 'life'.
do you think thats a fair statement , and i ask genuinely, im not trying to be clever, it would seem i'm failing that in most peoples opinions already.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2007, 11:31:25 pm »
Not really green at all here.   :cheers:

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #118 on: May 16, 2007, 11:52:02 pm »
drew
i just wanted to respond to the last bit of your post, i just noticed it. its meaner than the other bits ;)

Oh come now chumly!  The KenMelk....the whole job thingy....that's darn near GOLD!

Quote
if i were given 3 samples of food and told that an e coli outbreak came from one of them ,it would be foolhardy not to test one of them because i was told it had been irradiated at some point in its 'life'.
do you think thats a fair statement , and i ask genuinely, im not trying to be clever, it would seem i'm failing that in most peoples opinions already.

Indeed it WOULD be foolhardy not to test it!

Here's what you're missing:

1 - you keep stressing the HUMAN fecal matter
2 - you either aren't privy to or have heard about the numerous (numerous to me, at least) e coli outbreaks in the States here that have invariably been caused by ANIMAL fecal matter
3 - irradiation kills the e coli bacteria, and had the cases in question in the States here been subject to irradiation, there wouldn't have been the e coli outbreaks

Methinks it's just a language thing, is all, and the numerous reports of such cases in our country that you might not be aware of.  Processing of food in our country and widespread contamination tends to come from sources OTHER than the guy packaging your food who forgot to wash his hands after leaving a steamer in the loo a few moments before, and it's kind of ironic (there's that word again ;D ) that these cases are well known to our country to the point that they disagree with your viewpoint, and even MORE ironic given that you were a "food scientist" ;D

See, it's all kinds of funny, but it matters greatly the perspective in this case.

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in ways that you later wish you hadnít

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2007, 01:50:19 pm »
'Of', rather. But not necessarily. Just cos someone doesn't use capitlization and punctuation doesn't mean they can't think clearly. Also, just cos what someone learns somewhere isn't what you're familiar with, or what isn't what in your experience is mainstream, doesn't mean it's incorrect or inaccurate. For that matter, both your all's ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- could be, to whatever degree.

polaris: 100g of protein a day. From the sources I've seen, less than a gram of protein per pound of muscle is for those who aren't very active, particularly in strength and muscle-building exercises. Are you 75 kilos and not very active? And on fruit, again: what about fruit in your knowledge and experience is crucial to nutrition? (Lastly, don't let the crowd get at ya.)

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2007, 02:01:09 pm »
Just cos someone doesn't use capitlization and punctuation doesn't mean they can't think clearly.

It does mean they cannot articulate their thoughts clearly, and thus for our purposes, they may as well be a kumquat.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2007, 03:43:54 pm »
Possibly. Not necessarily: my girlfriend doesn't often use capitals and instead of puncutation uses spaces, and she can be very clear at times, just depends on your sentence (or sentential, heheh) structure...although I agree a lot of polaris' posts seem haphazzard.

Still, in such cases, a lot of folks here then go on to dog their ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. So what if someone doesn't use that stardard. If you (not you, but a general 'you') don't understand, ask them what they're talking about...in a neutral way. If you don't want to do that, then just ignore what they said. Similarly, another may (or may not) be expectant of you to get what they're saying, whether or not they use the convention you use, but you don't have to allow that expectation to influence you. Both conditions just make for a lot of grief.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2007, 03:48:32 pm »

Well that's my point - to you, your gf's poorly structured comments are worth the effort.  You have a personal stake.

A person with crappy structure, that you don't really care one way or another to make much effort to understand, is just going to get bypassed around here.  At least that's what I do. 

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2007, 05:25:24 pm »
Heheheheheheheh.....no no....you're missing the point. hehehehehe......I wouldn't read her ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- if it weren't readable....actually, I'd correct her, and people, especially females, don't want to be corrected on such things. I know from running them off with it. Her sentences are clearly compose. They just lack those two elements. Whereas polaris' posts appear a little rushed or/and scattered at times. It might be all that fruit he's eating and lack of protein. (Only half humorous, on that.)

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2007, 05:52:11 pm »
drew
i am starting to feel that being Welsh is causing a language barrier here, and thats not an attempt at being patronizing, when i meet a seppo face to face i tend to change the way i speak( hell people in london ,150 miles away look at me like i'm from mars), but maybe im too informal in my written conversation.

but to defend myself one last time, possibly with reference to the previous statement, i dont believe ive disagreed with the points  2 + 3 you've made at any time, with reference to point 1, ive been trying to make the point that there is bacteria at source which i agree irradiation will kill, if irradiation occurs and e coli poisoning still occurs from a foodstuff it would be almost 100% guarunteed that human interference would have to be the cause.people have assumed from what ive said that im against irradiating food. which i kinda am, but ironically this is the first time ive stated it.

do i get a tick for the irony? maybe even a gold star , please miss can i have a gold star :cheers:


polaris: 100g of protein a day. From the sources I've seen, less than a gram of protein per pound of muscle is for those who aren't very active, particularly in strength and muscle-building exercises. Are you 75 kilos and not very active? And on fruit, again: what about fruit in your knowledge and experience is crucial to nutrition? (Lastly, don't let the crowd get at ya.)
i am about 75 kilos , my friend described my physique once as 5 ft 11 and built like a fighting kitten. there would be reasonable debate amongst those who know me that im not very active , but i do have a very physical job.
obviously im quoting british dietary ref values here but i cant imagine they differ greatly.
the value is .75 to 1.5g of protein per kilo of bodyweight per day
its carbohydrates that you need lots of if your active, the protein is to repair your body so to speak, admittedly body building for example involves heavy abuse to the muscles but i would still say then, that being within the limits i gave would be fine. regarding fruit , crucial is the wrong word to use for me there, particular nutrients are crucial ,various foods can provide those nutrients, i would recommend fruit as it has many nutrients in it but if you feel sure you eat enough vegetables to not need any fruit ,cool.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2007, 06:27:31 pm »
even MORE ironic given that you were a "food scientist" ;D

I've met one other person that called herself a 'food scientist'.

Her knowledge of basic scientific principles was completely lacking, and she just had a 4 year degree.  Basically she just ran test kits against samples of the food her company made, to be sure it was in spec.

No research, no real understanding of what she was doing, more or less the equivalent of the guy that checks the pH of a swimming pool twice a week.

I'd bet $3 that polaris is from the same ilk.

$3 , you must be very confident in your claims.
who else apart from this girl have you met then, cos i never claimed to be a food scientist, a microbiologist i stated and that i went on to dietetics which in british medicine is referred to as a CPSM cert. prof. supplementary to medicine, its an incredibly well respected medical position but you may not have an equivalent in the us. for example a burns patient is more likely to be treated by a dietitian than a doctor.
mate im bored of this, you challenge my credentials , i prove them , you accuse me of boasting, its dull.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #126 on: May 17, 2007, 07:11:22 pm »
i am about 75 kilos , my friend described my physique once as 5 ft 11 and built like a fighting kitten. there would be reasonable debate amongst those who know me that im not very active , but i do have a very physical job.

Which of your jobs is very physical?  Chief microbiologist, or being published???  Or maybe typing without using the shift key and proper puncuation?  :blah:

Methinks this guy is so full of ---Cleveland steamer--- his eyes must be turning brown.  :laugh2:

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2007, 07:16:58 pm »
haruman
the job i have now , which is a lighting designer which generally involves putting the lights in the place the design indicates, some of them are big and heavy lights, and the job often involves up to 35 hr shifts which places a large physical demand on your body.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #128 on: May 17, 2007, 09:42:40 pm »

drew
i am starting to feel that being Welsh is causing a language barrier here, and thats not an attempt at being patronizing, when i meet a seppo face to face i tend to change the way i speak( hell people in london ,150 miles away look at me like i'm from mars), but maybe im too informal in my written conversation.


Fear not.  You're far more pleasing to read than Tranqhair ;D

Quote

but to defend myself one last time


You don't have to defend yourself to me.  Seriously.  This thread is simply fun nonsense to me.  I aced a food safety course I took for monetary gain while working at a restaurant.  I know a bit more than the average joe about food safety, but it still doesn't make me invest any more of myself into this thread than I already have (which is just to poke fun and hopefully make some folks laugh). 

If you notice, I simply replied as I read through this thread.  Other than talking to kumquat's, there hasn't been a whole lot of "meat" to this discussion and a basic agreement amongst many (if not all) that turds are like Hawaii to e coli. 

I think I just called myself Hawaii :dunno
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #129 on: May 17, 2007, 09:55:39 pm »
Why be formal at all...it's a forum not an english class. I'm sure people can understand what you write or they wouldn't respond to it.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #130 on: May 17, 2007, 11:40:17 pm »
Ah, polaris, the difference on protein is the mass standard, which yours is more than twice as much, hence, half the protein recommended. Also, I think vegies are a better source of nutrients cos you skip the sugars. As well, due to the ascorbic acid, some people (like my aunt) can't handle fruit, or any fruit-derived vitamins. Another thing is that there are exotic plants (like those in the Amazon - and check out amazonherb.net for THE company with rights to harvest, and sustainably, in the region) that have much more than your standard nutrients. If interested in their products, PM me.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #131 on: May 18, 2007, 12:36:46 am »
By the way - H-HAH! - here's that article on water and zero-point energy, etc.

excerpt: "In a review paper published in Materials Research Innovations in December, Roy and a team of collaborators called for a re-examination of the case against the most controversial of all claims made for water: that it has a "memory"."

Water: The quantum elixir
08 April 2006
NewScientist.com news service
Robert Matthews

IN NEW AGE circles, everyone is talking about it: the magical properties of the colourless, tasteless liquid the rest of us blithely refer to as water. Between frequent gulps of the life-giving elixir, those initiated into its secrets talk reverently of the work of Masaru Emoto, who is said to have proved that water responds to the emotions of those around it. They describe how Emoto has demonstrated that ice crystals made from water blessed by a Zen monk look so much more beautiful than those exposed to messages of hate. Many have bought his best-selling book detailing his findings, and many more have seen his claims covered in last year's New Age hit movie What the Bleep!?.

Many scientists view all this fuss about plain old H2O as standard hippy-trippy nonsense with about as much credibility as crystal therapy. Certainly Emoto's findings don't have much to do with the scientific method: they are hand-picked, ad hoc and impossible to replicate. Yet though these views are too far-out to take seriously, the findings of the latest bona fide research are equally bizarre.

It now seems that the effects of water on living organisms transcend mere chemistry: they are intimately linked to the most basic processes in the cosmos. Put bluntly, you owe your existence to quantum effects in water that make even the wackiest New Age ideas seem ho-hum.

If cornered, any scientist would have to concede that water does have some odd properties that are important for life. The fact that solid water - ice - defies convention by being less dense than its liquid state has stopped the oceans from freezing solid from the bottom up and killing all marine life. And the unusual reluctance of water to heat up has helped the oceans to iron out climatic swings, giving organisms time to adapt.

The simple chemical formula of water belies the subtleties behind its weirdness. The key to many of water's properties is not the chemical bonds between the one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms that make up the molecule. It is the links between hydrogen atoms in different molecules. These hydrogen bonds are at least 10 times as weak as a typical chemical bond, which means that while they can bind molecules together, they also break easily at room temperature.

A single drop of water is therefore a seething melee of order and disorder, with structures constantly forming and breaking up within it. The result is a liquid with dozens of anomalous bulk properties, from a boiling point more than 150 įC higher than that of comparable liquids to a marked reluctance to being compressed.

All the bonds affecting water molecules are ultimately caused by quantum effects, but hydrogen bonds are the result of one of the strangest quantum phenomena: so-called zero-point vibrations. A consequence of Heisenberg's famous uncertainty principle, these constant vibrations are a product of the impossibility of pinning down the total energy of a system with absolute precision at any given moment in time. Even if the universe itself froze over and its temperature plunged to absolute zero, zero-point vibrations would still be going strong, propelled by energy from empty space.

Quantum lifeline
In the case of water, these vibrations stretch the bonds between hydrogen atoms and their host oxygen atoms, enabling them to link up with neighbouring molecules more easily. The result is the highly cohesive liquid that keeps our planet alive.

Felix Franks of the University of Cambridge has a nice illustration of the vital role this quantum effect plays. Just take some water and swap the hydrogen for atoms of its heavier isotope deuterium. You end up with a liquid that is chemically identical, yet poisonous to all but the most primitive organisms. "The only difference is in the zero-point energy," says Franks.

A growing number of researchers are now investigating the consequences of this deep link between quantum effects and life. Recent advances in theoretical methods, experimental techniques and brute computing power have allowed them to study how water interacts with DNA, proteins and cells in unprecedented detail.

The results are often unexpected, and challenge simplistic assumptions about how life works. Certainly the fashionable view that the secret of life can be summed up in a catalogue of genes and the proteins they code for looks risibly simplistic. It is becoming clear that they cannot carry out even their most basic functions without direct help from molecules of the colourless, odourless curiosity that comes out of the tap. "Without water, it is all just chemistry," says Franks, "but add water and you get biology."

Some of the most impressive evidence is emerging from studies of proteins. Created from chains of amino acids linked up according to the instructions of DNA, proteins are the workhorse molecules of life. They perform a host of key functions, from fighting off invaders to catalysing reactions and building fresh cells. Their precise action depends largely on their physical shape, and water molecules have long been known to be vital in ensuring amino acids curl up in the right way. Only now are researchers discovering the mechanism.

What they are finding is an astonishingly delicate interplay of proteins and water molecules, orchestrated by those all-important hydrogen bonds. In January, Florian Garczarek and Klaus Gerwert at the department of biophysics at the Ruhr University of Bochum, Germany, reported on the role water molecules play in a protein called bacteriorhodopsin, which is found in the outer walls of primitive life forms (Nature, vol 439, p 109).

Bacteriorhodopsin undergoes a simple form of photosynthesis, using light to create a source of chemical energy. Researchers have long suspected that this process relies on the incoming light shifting protons around the molecule, creating a charge difference that acts rather like a battery. An obvious source of protons is the hydrogen nuclei of the water trapped within the protein's structure, but no one had shown how this could work.

Enter Garczarek and Gerwert. They exposed bacteriorhodopsin to infrared light, and found that the behaviour of the water molecules trapped within it was far from that of idle captives. Once struck by photons of light, the shape of the protein changed, breaking some of the hydrogen bonds between the trapped water molecules. The pair found that this triggered a chain of events in which fragments of some water molecules and clusters of others interacted to move protons through the protein.

This sophisticated process is all made possible by the quantum behaviour of the hydrogen bonds in water. "Having bonds that can easily be formed but are not too difficult to break is a big advantage," says Garczarek. The results suggest that it is no accident that chains of amino acids trap water molecules as they fold up to form a protein.

Hydrogen bonds are also turning out to have a profound role in the functioning of that other key constituent of life, DNA. As with proteins, new findings suggest it is time for a rethink of the familiar thumbnail sketch of DNA as a double helix of four chemical bases.

To perform its biological functions, DNA has to carry out various manoeuvres, twisting, turning and docking with proteins at just the right place. No problem for a metre-long stringy molecule like DNA, one might think. Yet on the far smaller scale where the real action takes place - typically a few hundred bases - DNA is pretty rigid. And then there's the mystery of how proteins meet up with just the right parts of the double helix.

Biochemists have long suspected water molecules are important: concentrations of them around DNA appear to correlate with biological activity. It turns out that water undergoes radical changes as it approaches the surface of DNA. As the molecules draw near the double helix, the seething network of hydrogen bonds within bulk water becomes disrupted, and the motion of individual molecules becomes more and more sluggish.

The latest research focuses on what happens around the "troughs" in the double helix formed by specific base pairs. It seems that water molecules linger longer and rotate more slowly around some base pairs than others. Suddenly that link between hydration levels and biological activity doesn't seem so perplexing. After all, the base pairs on DNA are the building blocks of genes, and their sequence dictates the order in which amino acids are stitched together to make proteins. If water molecules linger longer around some base pairs than others, the level of hydration will mirror the sequence of base pairs.

Monika Fuxreiter of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences Biological Research Centre in Budapest believes that this explains how proteins and DNA interact. She and her colleagues at BRC's Institute of Enzymology created a computer simulation of DNA and a protein called BamHI, which uses water molecules to cut DNA at very specific points.

They saw that adding virtual water molecules to the mix had a dramatic effect. "The water molecules report the DNA sequence to the protein while it is still some distance away," says Fuxreiter. "Then as the protein gets closer, the water molecules are ejected from the site until it binds tightly to the DNA."

According to Fuxreiter the water molecules relay messages to the protein via electrostatic forces, which reflect the varying levels of hydration on the DNA. They can even warn the approaching protein about potential problems with the DNA before it arrives. "If the DNA is distorted due to some defect it becomes more hydrated and the protein can't make proper contact," says Fuxreiter. "Instead, it moves to another site - which is very good biologically." Fuxreiter's team is now planning to test just how effective water molecules are in determining where and when proteins bind to DNA.

That there is more to water than hydrogen and oxygen is something many researchers welcome. But Rustum Roy, a materials scientist at Pennsylvania State University in University Park goes further. He thinks it is time for a radical overhaul of the scientific view of water - one which, he believes, has been dominated by chemistry for too long. "It's absurd to say that chemical composition dictates everything," he says. "Take carbon, for example - the same atoms can give you graphite or diamond." In a review paper published in Materials Research Innovations in December, Roy and a team of collaborators called for a re-examination of the case against the most controversial of all claims made for water: that it has a "memory".

The idea that water can retain some kind of imprint of compounds dissolved in it has long been cited as a possible mechanism for homeopathy, which claims to treat ailments using solutions of certain compounds. Some homeopathic remedies are so dilute they no longer contain a single molecule of the original compound - prompting many scientists to dismiss homeopathic effects as imaginary. For how can water with nothing in it act as anything other than water?

Roy believes this is too simplistic: "It is a naive, chemistry-schoolbook argument." He argues that water has proved itself capable of effects that go beyond simple chemistry, and these may imbue water with a memory. One way this may occur, he says, is through an effect known as epitaxy: using the atomic structure of one compound as a template to induce the same structure in others.

Hidden depths
Epitaxy is routinely used in the microprocessor industry to create perfect semiconductor crystals. And according to Roy, water already exhibits epitaxial effects. "The 'seeding' of clouds is the growth of crystalline ice on a substrate of silver iodide, which has the same crystal structure," he says. "No chemical transfer whatsoever occurs."

Roy and his colleagues also point to another effect they believe has been overlooked by mainstream scientists in their rush to dismiss homeopathy: the vigorous shaking of the mixtures used, a process called succussion. The team estimates that shock waves generated by the shaking can cause localised pressures inside the water to reach over 10,000 atmospheres, which may trigger fundamental changes in the properties of the water molecules.

Roy believes that by taking homeopathy seriously scientists may find out more about water's fundamental properties. "The problem is that much more research needs to be done to find the right techniques to probe the properties of water reliably," he says.

However, many scientists question the very idea of taking homeopathy seriously. The most recent review of the medical evidence found that homeopathic remedies were no better than a placebo in all but a handful of cases (Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, vol 11, p 813). That is likely to put the brakes on research into this aspect of water. "Rigorous experiments need to be done to provide support for all scientific claims," says theoretical chemist David Clary at the University of Oxford. "I don't think it is worth spending time on this." Chemist Martin Chaplin of London South Bank University is more sympathetic: "I think there may be something in it, but we need good experiments - and the best researchers won't go near the subject."

The latest discoveries about the role of water in living processes may change that, however. After decades of research, Franks sums up his view of the simple little molecule we call H2O in terms that will put a smile on the face of New Age hippies everywhere: "It's the magic ingredient that turns lifeless powders on laboratory shelves into living things."

HaRuMaN

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #132 on: May 18, 2007, 05:50:08 am »
Hippie ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  Not real science, sorry.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #133 on: May 18, 2007, 08:26:56 am »
Quote

Many scientists view all this fuss about plain old H2O as standard hippy-trippy nonsense with about as much credibility as crystal therapy. Certainly Emoto's findings don't have much to do with the scientific method: they are hand-picked, ad hoc and impossible to replicate. Yet though these views are too far-out to take seriously, the findings of the latest bona fide research are equally bizarre.


The article itself admits that it is smurf poop.
I have changed my nickname to "Cakemeister". Please do not PM the Buddabing account because I do not check it anymore.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2007, 11:02:35 am »
You lost me at "IN NEW AGE circles, ".  :blah:
I've got a fever...

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #135 on: May 18, 2007, 11:56:25 am »
So what if someone doesn't use that stardard. If you (not you, but a general 'you') don't understand, ask them what they're talking about...in a neutral way. If you don't want to do that, then just ignore what they said.

I'm going to agree with this thought blossom, but with a caveat...

If a certain someone is going out of his way to prove his point is the only valid one, and he uses his supposed credentials of being a "master of this" and "certified at that" with a sprinkling of "I'm published", he deserves to be called out if he cannot form complete sentences.

I typically just ignore pontification (like the random sub-conscious ramblings you often provide ;)) for the very reasons you have outlined above. However... I will not ignore a package of pontification, gift wrapped in the obvious ignorance of a poster's native language and grammar usage, if a bow of condescension is placed upon the package.

<soapbox> Preaching at us about being published while using a bastardization of basic English is just not going to fly. At least not with me. </soapbox>
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 11:59:23 am by nostrebor »

Chris G

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #136 on: May 18, 2007, 12:20:34 pm »
You lost me at "IN NEW AGE circles, ".  :blah:

He lost me at "By the way"

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #137 on: May 18, 2007, 12:42:02 pm »
I just find the whole transition from food scientist to author to light boy fascinating.

All the enjoyment of a regular boy, half the calories.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #138 on: May 18, 2007, 01:29:40 pm »
I just find the whole transition from food scientist to author to light boy fascinating.



What will happen next!?? Tune in for the next episode of <booming voice>Morph-Boy!</booming voice>

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #139 on: May 18, 2007, 03:24:07 pm »
nos: that's still an ego trip. So what if they do? No reason to get in a hoot'n'anny about it. Same with my own stuff. People assume I'm making some great declaration or whatever. Even if I am, so what? That is affects them so to feel they need to 'step up to the mat' or 'set things right' or 'expose something for what it is' is just a sign that something inside them is threatened.

Buddabing: that's not the important part, nor the peak point of the article. If you read the whole thing, you might practice your reading comprehension.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #140 on: May 18, 2007, 03:58:21 pm »
You lost me at "IN NEW AGE circles, ".  :blah:

He lost me at "By the way"

I wouldn't count myself in the "lost" camp at that point Chris.  I prefer to be counted in the "thankful I have enough energy to scroll past the nonsense".

Really, you can't consider yourself "lost" if you didn't care to begin with
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in ways that you later wish you hadnít

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #141 on: May 18, 2007, 04:05:13 pm »
So what if someone doesn't use that stardard. If you (not you, but a general 'you') don't understand, ask them what they're talking about...in a neutral way. If you don't want to do that, then just ignore what they said.

I'm going to agree with this thought blossom, but with a caveat...


You disappoint me Nos.

Quote

I typically just ignore pontification (like the random sub-conscious ramblings you often provide ;))


AND THEN YOU TOTALLY GO AND REDEEM YOURSELF! :laugh2:
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #142 on: May 18, 2007, 05:47:05 pm »
So today I'm driving to lunch and I see this big ass truck with scrolling billboards on every side of it.  At first I'm thinking, ok, some delivery place sold some advertising space on their trucks... whatever.  But then I look more closely, and the SOLE PURPOSE OF THE TRUCK IS ADVERTISING.  I don't think it's actually transporting anything at all.  It's just someone driving a giant truck around purely to annoy people.  Now, I can dig those billboard trucks that roll up and down the strip in Vegas hawking strip clubs, but this was on a totally different level.  This probably isn't anything new, but I had never seen it around where I live, so I'm going to go ahead and be shocked and appalled.  Talk about a waste of resources...

PBJ - Here's a link if you want to get in on the action.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #143 on: May 18, 2007, 07:05:59 pm »
Curious. You remember those floating advertisers in Blade Runner.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #144 on: May 18, 2007, 07:11:24 pm »
Curious. You remember those floating advertisers in Blade Runner.
or more recently in the movie Children of Men.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #145 on: May 18, 2007, 09:00:49 pm »
Bush senior wasn't all that bad.  He wasn't all that great but he didn't do anything to deserve being lumped in with his son.

i cant say i remember much of him, Reagan seemed to be a lot more in our news in his time,i couldnt really relate bush senior to anything i dont think, did he have the first go at saddam so to speak?

he was the Bush that COULD fly fighter planes...


ROUGHING UP THE SUSPECT SINCE 1981

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #146 on: May 18, 2007, 09:48:51 pm »
Thanks for the effort guys.  I regularly spill some gas while pumping it into my f-150.  I keep the tires low pressure so they make less noise.  I have my thermostat in my house set at 68 in the summer, 78 in the winter.  I yell at my kids for leaving lights off.  I drink  a 12 pack of coke a day, and throw all the cans and bottles in the woods behind my house.  I over fertilize my lawn so it looks nice and green.  Who cares if I can walk across the pond?  I leave all 10 of my TV's on and loud so I don't have to go into a room and think.  I wash my socks seperately so they don't get lost.  I change the oil in my car every 3K miles and pour the old oil in the storm sewer.  I give the EPA helicopters flying over the river here the finger.

=J
* DrewKaree marvels at Jack's superpowers :notworthy:


you know, i thought immediately of you when i read that! so is your truck still up on bricks in the front yard? left running? good to see your tyre fire is still raging  ;D


ROUGHING UP THE SUSPECT SINCE 1981

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #147 on: May 18, 2007, 09:53:49 pm »
I just find the whole transition from food scientist to author to light boy fascinating.

All the enjoyment of a regular boy, half the calories.

 ;D


ROUGHING UP THE SUSPECT SINCE 1981

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #148 on: May 19, 2007, 12:28:22 am »
Ah, polaris, the difference on protein is the mass standard, which yours is more than twice as much, hence, half the protein recommended. Also, I think vegies are a better source of nutrients cos you skip the sugars. As well, due to the ascorbic acid, some people (like my aunt) can't handle fruit, or any fruit-derived vitamins. Another thing is that there are exotic plants (like those in the Amazon - and check out amazonherb.net for THE company with rights to harvest, and sustainably, in the region) that have much more than your standard nutrients. If interested in their products, PM me.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21726345-5006007,00.html?from=public_rss

 :dunno


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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #149 on: May 19, 2007, 12:55:48 am »
he was the Bush that COULD fly fighter planes...

Uhh... he got shot down in the Pacific, dude.  :D

(not dissing veterans, but c'mon)

I want one of them ad trucks, but only if it gets 5mpg.



well, flying ability has nothing to do with being shot down...

i say hang the ad truck! i want something that does 1.9 mile per gallon (",)



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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2007, 01:51:40 am »



<soapbox> Preaching at us about being published while using a bastardization of basic English is just not going to fly. At least not with me. </soapbox>
'preaching' , i 'stated' it once i believe, obviously its ok for you to use english incorrectly then 'preach' about others. made yourself look a bit of a ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- there havent you.

drew if your reading, thats all you do isnt it read the threads then rip everyone apart, it makes me laugh so im quite happy to be included, and if what im doing is seemingly so entertaining it would be mean of me to hold back the ammunition that those who desire it need, ive seen this quoted as the best thread ever. i get that being like tranq isnt a massive compliment too. ;)
 :cheers:

shorthair my bestest friend
with the risk of sounding pompous , i know what i need to know for me to be happy about my diet if you get me, im with the people in the link dannygalaga posted on the subject of dietary needs.
im a little confused about what you say about protein, are you saying you weigh twice what i do, how tall are you?

pbj,
im pleased i fascinate you so much and that you want to know all about me, in contrast im not interested in you at all.
i find it hard to believe that you've never met anyone whos changed jobs in their life.
its quite easy really to explain why i now am a lighting guy, its pays much better and working for the NHS would be a nightmare nowadays.
 last night for example, i saw electric 6 play live ( if your pro bush you wouldnt like them i would say ) a really cool glenn miller type band, some indie guys who were really good and a guy called killa kela the best beatboxer in the world without doubt, met a huge amount of really nice people , saw hundreds of gorgeous women in stunning ballgowns, held a big snake, met four women on stilts in hotpants, one of which a dutchwoman, was ---smurfing--- stunning.
all in all ,a nice night for which i also got paid.
sorry to sound like im boasting but i do love my job and you did ask.
dont feel like you need to reply
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2007, 03:04:29 am »
Well, some getting in a snit over this.  Kinda following Chad, I think everyone is selfish. It's the level from which the directive is issued that is key.


but hang it. i will! youve spurred me on!  Excellent danny!




there you go, youve made a difference! i actually bought a packet of two 11w wattsaver globes (equivalent to 60w  each incandescent). only two just to see which fixtures they will fit in. looks like i can replace 5 globes. so thats about 300w down to 55 or so with almost no effort! really though, if i just replaced my house mates light we'd half our bill!


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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #152 on: May 19, 2007, 10:40:21 am »
pbj
you truly are a moron.
like ive said its boring that you look for an answer and criticize my honesty as boasting, youre making things up and repeatedly getting everything wrong.
for example money, i said i do this job for reasons including the money which is better, look at what you extrapolated from that. every other point you have made is just as inaccurate
what type am i mate and how the ---fudgesicle--- would you know

youre implying im stupid all the time, come show me how clever you are in the punctuation thread i posted
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #153 on: May 19, 2007, 12:51:18 pm »
thats not an unwritten policy is it! god you really are stupid, see its easy to be pedantic and so childish.

again you assume and get everything wrong,

i would never get married BTW, its pretty much a christian thing , i have no faith so feel no need, a piece of paper doesnt mean much to me either.

is the doll thing a gay reference , its 2007 mate , homophobia is not very clever is it. but it wouldnt surprise me that you were.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #154 on: May 19, 2007, 02:43:45 pm »
You know... I have this unwritten policy about arcade collectors..

If they're in their 30s, and unmarried, I usually will not deal with them.

I haven't been following this thread, so I don't know what triggered off this argument. But this comment caught my eye because it's so utterly bizarre. Seriously, WTF does a person's marital status have to do with anything? Would you care to elaborate on the rationale behind this "unwritten rule" of yours? And does it apply to all unmarried people in their 30s, or just arcade collectors?

 :dunno
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #155 on: May 19, 2007, 02:45:50 pm »
You know... I have this unwritten policy about arcade collectors..

If they're in their 30s, and unmarried, I usually will not deal with them.

I haven't been following this thread, so I don't know what triggered off this argument. But this comment caught my eye because it's so utterly bizarre. Seriously, WTF does a person's marital status have to do with anything? Would you care to elaborate on the rationale behind this "unwritten rule" of yours? And does it apply to all unmarried people in their 30s, or just arcade collectors?

 :dunno
i got the impression he was trying to insinuate i was gay
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2007, 03:48:58 pm »

I actually bought a packet of two 11w wattsaver globes (equivalent to 60w  each incandescent). Only two just to see which fixtures they will fit in. Looks like i can replace 5 globes. so thats about 300w down to 55 or so with almost no effort! really though, if i just replaced my house mates light we'd half our bill!

Boo-yah! Well done!
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #157 on: May 19, 2007, 06:19:53 pm »

i actually bought a packet of two 11w wattsaver globes (equivalent to 60w  each incandescent). only two just to see which fixtures they will fit in. looks like i can replace 5 globes. so thats about 300w down to 55 or so with almost no effort! really though, if i just replaced my house mates light we'd half our bill!


On that note, I find myself in need of suggestions on how to use an additional 245w per day.  No reason, just wondering :angel:
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2007, 06:45:57 pm »

i actually bought a packet of two 11w wattsaver globes (equivalent to 60w  each incandescent). only two just to see which fixtures they will fit in. looks like i can replace 5 globes. so thats about 300w down to 55 or so with almost no effort! really though, if i just replaced my house mates light we'd half our bill!


On that note, I find myself in need of suggestions on how to use an additional 245w per day.  No reason, just wondering :angel:


i know what youre saying drew, once youve left the lights on ,left the fridge door open a little ,tvs on standby or on 24/7, its hard to know what do do to make the extra difference after all the obvious stuff, how bout buying nonrecyclable rechargeable stuff youll never use but keep constantly on charge, just a thought that may help in your plight ;)
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #159 on: May 19, 2007, 07:00:32 pm »
I'm gonna be running an air conditioner in the kitchen window while the stove is open and on 450.  That's the best I could come up with so far :dunno

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #160 on: May 19, 2007, 07:08:03 pm »
just as long as you dont fall for the silly mistakes like turning the heating down when your too hot, always remove clothing first.
have you considered a second larger ac unit and possibly even a second oven in the garage maybe, i know its costly but you must be prepared to make tough choices if your gonna do any good.
stay away from those nonsense expensive A rated appliances too.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #161 on: May 19, 2007, 10:43:19 pm »
I would like to point out that that day I get married and sign away half of my possessions to someone I'll eventually get sick of is the day I've lost it.  Marriage is NOT the genetic drive of the male... sex is.  We are wired to plant our seed with as many women as humanly possible.  Several thousands of years of evolution have put this drive into us.  The "social engineering" of the past 300 or so years cannot override that.  So if by "something wrong" you mean they are smarter than the average stupid drone and choose not to fall into that trap then yes, their is really something wrong with them.  The divorce rate is sky high.... cheating on your spouse is so common that it's almost expected in some circles.  All of this points to the fact that marriage is an unnatural act.

Getting back on topic.....

The thing about being green is i's more of a way of thinking than an actual act.  When I do things from day to day I am conscious of the energy I'm using and try as much as possible not ot be wasteful.  When I purchase a new car, new light bulbs or anything of that nature I think the same thing and that mindset effects my decisions.  On the other hand, there's conservation and then there is what I like to call "being a crazy hippie."  I buy primarily florescent bulbs because they are reasonably priced and they reduce my energy consumption.  I do NOT buy hybrid cars because they are some made up b.s. by the auto/oil industry designed to distract you to the fact that sticking a redundant gas engine in an electric car negates any cost/energy benefit due to the extra wieght.  I don't have a bank of solar panels on my roof because they don't work well yet and they are very expensive.  When they get better I will though.  I walk to near by places. The walking is good for me and I don't mind, but if it's far enough away to where I do mind, ---my bottom--- is taking the car.  I don't buy hummers, pickup trucks or suvs, because they are a ridiculously inefficeint form of transportation unless you actually need to haul around 10 kids, or a piece of plywood every day.  On the other hand, you won't see me in a ford focus either because I like to drive without my knees hitting my stomache. 

Long story short, there isn't a whole lot you can do right now, but it is important that you do what you can.  it is also important that you pester your local politicans to do more because unfortunately, things like global warming aren't going to be solved by the indivdual alone as industry pollutes more than you could if you tried. 

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #162 on: May 20, 2007, 01:22:04 am »

i actually bought a packet of two 11w wattsaver globes (equivalent to 60w  each incandescent). only two just to see which fixtures they will fit in. looks like i can replace 5 globes. so thats about 300w down to 55 or so with almost no effort! really though, if i just replaced my house mates light we'd half our bill!


On that note, I find myself in need of suggestions on how to use an additional 245w per day.  No reason, just wondering :angel:


i think if you tow one of your trucks, with the other one, and leave the handbrake on both of them that should do the trick (",) . oh, dont put the wheels back on either...


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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2007, 05:20:53 am »
...and "shut the heck up, who cares so much about $20"

If a guy makes it into his 30s and hasn't been married, it indicates he's had a really strange life or there's something -really- wrong with him.  Witness Polaris and his "it's a piece of paper" when he really means "oh god I'm so lonely"

Enjoy your mom's basement, single folks.


That last part is funny. The first part I don't know what he means there, and the second part (as well as the 'heck') just spells it out. PBJ has a distinctive kind of conservative outlook. Fine.


polaris: you misunderstood what I said. There's a difference of body mass unit, per gram of daily protein intake, between UK (or whatever affiliation the one you studied is with) and American systems - kilos for the former, pounds for the latter - which means that if we both weigh 150 pounds, the amount of protein intake in the UK system is less than half suggested in the American. As you follow one, I follow the other, our answers on the matter are different.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #164 on: May 20, 2007, 10:18:58 am »
shorty
yep cheers dude youve cleared that up for me

howard
thank you
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #165 on: May 20, 2007, 10:56:31 am »
so a man needs a wife to stop him from being stupid.
i think someones wife is out of town at the moment. :laugh2:
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #166 on: May 20, 2007, 11:30:54 am »
Let's see a picture of your gameroom, polaris.


Silly you....  trolls don't have gamerooms!

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #167 on: May 20, 2007, 11:36:55 am »
Let's see a picture of your gameroom, polaris.

i dont have one.
the toys to which you are referring in my case , project arcade machine,  lots of records and a piano ,all in my living room but its there or the garden so not a tough choice. thats it mate, if i had more money to blow, id buy more records and a second piano and probably another record player and 2 cd players.
im not what your currently implying , have another go.
BTW im single ,not in the least bit concerned about it, i have a daughter who fills my life, and would want no partner in my life that would tell me what to do particularly if she tried to get rid of the piano or not accept that i will be getting a second piano, regardless of what space they took up.
you can imply about what i say about a piece of paper, but i dont believe in god so why get married in his eyes.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #168 on: May 20, 2007, 11:45:43 am »
Silly you....  trolls don't have gamerooms!

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. 
again i'm happy to state you are a moron.
i was responding in this thread to a health issue, its you who has sought to abuse me , that would be the trolling you refer to wouldnt it, i was on topic , but honestly this wife of yours must be so grateful of me at the moment.
your obviously a person who argues illogically because you get off on it, so it must be nice for her to be having a break at the moment
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #169 on: May 20, 2007, 12:01:35 pm »

I would like to point out that that day I get married and sign away half of my possessions to someone I'll eventually get sick of is the day I've lost it. 


That's a rather safe defense you've put up there.  You'll have "lost it", so THAT'S why de wimmins leaving your vicinity don't bother you, and the sooner you can drive them away, the better! :laugh2:

Quote

I do NOT buy hybrid cars because they are some made up b.s. by the auto/oil industry designed to distract you to the fact that sticking a redundant gas engine in an electric car negates any cost/energy benefit due to the extra wieght.


Given the mileage they report, either there's a bigger lie being put forth than guys like Pat want to acknowledge, or you're wanting to argue that the electric part needs to be more efficient, rather than the gas part being too heavy so as to wreck all the hard work of the electric part.

No matter the angle you wish to take, you've helped me.  I'm going to buy a Prius and put it in the back of the truck Danny wants me to tow around.

It won't weigh as much as the one from the dealer, because I also realized I can remove the handful of batteries from the Prius and bury them close to a water supply somewhere.  If the local water treatment station wasn't fenced off, I could just toss 'em in one of the holding ponds.  Mebbe I'll see if Ed can hook me up on that one.

Would those batteries "work" better if they were tossed on the tire fire, or in a holding pond?
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #170 on: May 20, 2007, 12:38:10 pm »
What kind of batteries are in the prius?

Batteries are one of the things that are better off recycled.  Lithium, Lead, Nickel, Cadmium...  All messy and better to recycle than to toss into the waste stream.

I made a concious effort to do domething green today.  I told a fat guy to diet.  I figure he'll consume less resources and add less to the waste stream.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #171 on: May 20, 2007, 12:53:03 pm »

What kind of batteries are in the prius?

Batteries are one of the things that are better off recycled.  Lithium, Lead, Nickel, Cadmium...  All messy and better to recycle than to toss into the waste stream.


That's just crazy talk right there :dizzy:

Those batteries HAVE to be better on a tire fire or in a water treatment plant's holding pond, no?
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #172 on: May 20, 2007, 02:16:10 pm »
I do NOT buy hybrid cars because they are some made up b.s. by the auto/oil industry designed to distract you to the fact that sticking a redundant gas engine in an electric car negates any cost/energy benefit due to the extra wieght.


Given the mileage they report, either there's a bigger lie being put forth than guys like Pat want to acknowledge, or you're wanting to argue that the electric part needs to be more efficient, rather than the gas part being too heavy so as to wreck all the hard work of the electric part.

The reason for the electric motor is because only an electric motor can be used in the "regenerative braking" that the Prius uses. If used properly (ie you don't brake to late, forcing the mechanical brakes to kick in), it recovers up to two thirds of the braking energy. It is the most important way to save fuel in stop and go city traffic.

The gas engine is needed because I don't think they are able to produce a useful fully electrically powerded car yet. Either the car is too small or it doesn't have acceptable range.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #173 on: May 20, 2007, 03:12:51 pm »

The gas engine is needed because I don't think they are able to produce a useful fully electrically powerded car yet. Either the car is too small or it doesn't have acceptable range.


That line is bunk.  They're starting to import Smart cars here in 2008 (after adding more safety features, since they're not safe enough for our roads, evidently ::) ).

If THOSE cars are "big enough" that people view them as reasonable transportation, then your "the car is too small" line is complete and utter bunk.  The smart cars claim mileage figures that are attainable for larger (e.g. less sardine-can-sized) vehicles, have negligible storage - to the point that they have to point out the cubic storage space when filled to the roof - and in general, have no compelling reason to choose them instead of a larger car.

That they will sell is not in doubt - they will not import a car that WON'T sell, so the size of the vehicle you're referring to has to be smaller than a Smart car, and Matchbox has a hard time making a smaller car than a Smrt
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #174 on: May 20, 2007, 03:35:41 pm »

I'm catching this a little late, but for once, pinballjim isn't so far off.  I've found that with arcade guys, more so pinball guys, if they don't have kids they are going to be a pain in the ass to deal with.  They're going to be very selfish, nickel and dime the crap out of you, waste your time intentionally to do it, flake off on deals with regularity... all things that someone with a family and demands on spare time can't afford.  I've had very few arcade deals with guys that don't have kids go smoothly.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #175 on: May 20, 2007, 03:40:46 pm »

The gas engine is needed because I don't think they are able to produce a useful fully electrically powerded car yet. Either the car is too small or it doesn't have acceptable range.


That line is bunk.  They're starting to import Smart cars here in 2008
Now imagine filling that smart up to the roof with batteries needed to power it and see how "big" it is.

Anyway, of course electric cars are available already and the manufacturers are working on new models. For now they don't seem to be a big sell though. So whatever is causing that is the reason for it  ::) Could be range, size, price or whatever.

I wonder if the extra batteries needed for a fully electrically powered care wouldn't weigh as much as a small petrol engine anyway.

Quote
after adding more safety features, since they're not safe enough for our roads, evidently ::)
What kind of safety features are they adding? Perhaps a bigger airbag to accomodate americans not using a seat belt? They added ESC in europe after they were found to flip over too easily, but what else can they add.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #176 on: May 20, 2007, 03:42:26 pm »

I'm catching this a little late, but for once, pinballjim isn't so far off.  I've found that with arcade guys, more so pinball guys, if they don't have kids they are going to be a pain in the ass to deal with.  They're going to be very selfish, nickel and dime the crap out of you, waste your time intentionally to do it, flake off on deals with regularity... all things that someone with a family and demands on spare time can't afford.  I've had very few arcade deals with guys that don't have kids go smoothly.
Does pinballjim have kids?
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #177 on: May 20, 2007, 03:46:33 pm »

No idea.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #178 on: May 20, 2007, 04:22:33 pm »
Quote
after adding more safety features, since they're not safe enough for our roads, evidently ::)
What kind of safety features are they adding? Perhaps a bigger airbag to accomodate americans not using a seat belt? They added ESC in europe after they were found to flip over too easily, but what else can they add.

I have no idea.  There is a Suzuki dealership here that has 4 of those deathtraps selling for an astronomical $26,000, and they have to be sold as used cars (brand new models with the used car info sticker on 'em) due to some other regulations.

When my buddy wanted some more info on 'em, we looked online for 'em.  They get 45mpg and aren't slated for import until 2008 here, and the reason given was that they have to add several safety improvements or features (can't remember how it was phrased).  Due to them lacking these items already, that was cited as the reason they weren't already being imported.  It's also one of the reasons they have to be sold as used cars thus far. 

My flabber was gasted when I found out those things were $26k.  Mebbe that's their starting point, but they darn sure expect to sell them for somewhere close to that point.  That's an astronomical price for a car that looks like it would lose in a head-on collision with a Big Wheel/motorized wheelchair ::)
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #179 on: May 20, 2007, 05:31:09 pm »
Quote
after adding more safety features, since they're not safe enough for our roads, evidently ::)
What kind of safety features are they adding? Perhaps a bigger airbag to accomodate americans not using a seat belt? They added ESC in europe after they were found to flip over too easily, but what else can they add.

I have no idea.  There is a Suzuki dealership here that has 4 of those deathtraps selling for an astronomical $26,000, and they have to be sold as used cars (brand new models with the used car info sticker on 'em) due to some other regulations.

When my buddy wanted some more info on 'em, we looked online for 'em.  They get 45mpg and aren't slated for import until 2008 here, and the reason given was that they have to add several safety improvements or features (can't remember how it was phrased).  Due to them lacking these items already, that was cited as the reason they weren't already being imported.  It's also one of the reasons they have to be sold as used cars thus far. 

My flabber was gasted when I found out those things were $26k.  Mebbe that's their starting point, but they darn sure expect to sell them for somewhere close to that point.  That's an astronomical price for a car that looks like it would lose in a head-on collision with a Big Wheel/motorized wheelchair ::)
$26k sounds outrageous. Overhere they start at Ä9k (like $12k), but a general price would be Ä12k ($16k) which is bad enough. Mind you, that's including the 60% of taxes we have on new cars overhere. So I would expect the cars to sell for a lot less than that in the US.

It's basically half a car.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #180 on: May 20, 2007, 06:53:38 pm »
I'm guessing it's because nobody else has them here...some kind of "value" cost increase ::)

Seems prices when they're offered here next year will be in line with what you're saying, so I can't for the life of me fathom why they think the "cache" of having one of these a year early is worth $14k

http://www.smartusa.com/faq.html

I have no idea what's different from previous years, but there's all the info they're putting out.  Seems that the press release I read was either incorrect, or they re-figured their info.  Doing the conversion using Google gave me a figure of 46 mpg, to be exact.  Their figures for 2008 for the U.S. are 40 "plus" mpg.

My CRX got that, looked a hell of a lot cooler, and didn't make me fear a bicyclist would total my car ;D
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #181 on: May 20, 2007, 08:15:04 pm »

Miatas are about as reliable as a politician and tend to dissolve on any collision.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #182 on: May 20, 2007, 09:20:59 pm »
5th Gear tv actually did some pretty intensive crash testing of the SMART car, and believe it or not, it fares VERY well in collisions with other cars, some largish cars even.  I'd feel MUCH safer in a SMART car than in any american econobox.  Of course on teh road surrounded by gigantic SUV's it would be pretty intimidating, but around town as a city car (which is what they really are) would be just fine.

In this crash test, they run one into a concrete barrier at 70mph and it was pretty bad, but I can't see any small car faring much better than this car.

http://steveintheuk.com/2005/12/21/december-2005-fifth-gear-smart-car-crash/

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #183 on: May 20, 2007, 09:43:16 pm »
so I can't for the life of me fathom why they think the "cache" of having one of these a year early is worth $14k
Some people are just "those kind of people"? Who buys the top-line CPU's instead of the other ones which are 5% slower and 60% cheaper? Who buys the pre-order Zuper-Box Mega-Whopper-Huge-Big pack when everyone knows that a year from now it will be $100 cheaper? To some people the value of having something right now is much more than others.  :dunno
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #184 on: May 20, 2007, 10:02:09 pm »

Yeah, dumb people.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #185 on: May 20, 2007, 10:26:02 pm »
so I can't for the life of me fathom why they think the "cache" of having one of these a year early is worth $14k
Some people are just "those kind of people"? Who buys the top-line CPU's instead of the other ones which are 5% slower and 60% cheaper? Who buys the pre-order Zuper-Box Mega-Whopper-Huge-Big pack when everyone knows that a year from now it will be $100 cheaper? To some people the value of having something right now is much more than others.  :dunno

I see the few hundred as somewhat an impulse buy type of thing.  $14,000 more is outside my ability to see as an "impulse buy".  Seems to me that those who could view $14,000 as an amount they have no problem dropping on impulse aren't the type who're gonna be driving around in a tuna can on wheels.

Boyks, when the front of the car is as close to your body as the back of the car, I'm never ditching the feeling that I'm a missed blind-spot check away from becoming a semi's new tire. 

Heaven help the poor soul who's claustrophobic and has to ride in one of those as well.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #186 on: May 21, 2007, 12:01:56 am »
I'm guessing it's because nobody else has them here...some kind of "value" cost increase ::)

Seems prices when they're offered here next year will be in line with what you're saying, so I can't for the life of me fathom why they think the "cache" of having one of these a year early is worth $14k

http://www.smartusa.com/faq.html

I have no idea what's different from previous years, but there's all the info they're putting out.  Seems that the press release I read was either incorrect, or they re-figured their info.  Doing the conversion using Google gave me a figure of 46 mpg, to be exact.  Their figures for 2008 for the U.S. are 40 "plus" mpg.

My CRX got that, looked a hell of a lot cooler, and didn't make me fear a bicyclist would total my car ;D

I'd buy one if the price was right, I'd say about $10k USD.

I think the word you're looking for is "cachet".
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #187 on: May 21, 2007, 02:25:49 am »
I'm guessing it's because nobody else has them here...some kind of "value" cost increase ::)

Seems prices when they're offered here next year will be in line with what you're saying, so I can't for the life of me fathom why they think the "cache" of having one of these a year early is worth $14k
I only mentioned some basic prices. There are more expensive models. A while ago I was in the Amsterdam auto show (AutoRAI) and they had a smart (think it was the Brabus "pimped" version) that cost something like Ä25k ($32k). The cabrio is more expensive (by about 3k) than the coupe version and from looking at it you can hardly see the difference. Their idea of cabrio is more a sunroof.

[/quote]I have no idea what's different from previous years, but there's all the info they're putting out. [/quote]Well there simply is a new model coming up. Perhaps for the old model it was too just expensive to make it comply with US regulations (could be as simple as having to move the taillight an inch up). The new model was probably designed with both US and European rules in mind then.

They are losing so much money on it  they basically restarted the whole smart business. They dumped the extra models (4 seater and roadster) and redesigned the basic model. Guess one part of the new strategy is to try and sell it in the US too.

I had one on my drive way (loaner when a car was in the shop for service), but it simply looks scary to drive in. They say the shell of the car stays intact, but it just doesn't look like the people inside will remain intact. Feels like the back of your head is on the rear window. maybe the new model will be better (it will be slightly less small at least)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 03:40:37 am by patrickl »
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #188 on: May 21, 2007, 02:55:55 am »

I wonder if the extra batteries needed for a fully electrically powered care wouldn't weigh as much as a small petrol engine anyway.


more. i love the idea of electric cars and when i have some cash i want to build some kind of electric streeter (they do really good 1/4 mile times). but as they stand there is a big issue with range and weight with traditional batteries, and cost with lithium ion. the idea of a hybrid is more to average out what a petrol engine is doing. a petrol engine is most efficient if it just runs at a certain constant speed as in a generator. in a normal car, the constant acceleration/deceleration means you need a much larger engine than required to just hold the speed. electric motors have huge torque from 0 rpm to top so the combination of the two should give the best of both worlds- car with an engine of about 40 hp with electric performing like a regular 100 hp motor...


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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #189 on: May 21, 2007, 09:48:16 pm »
i agree they seem a bit tiny ,and i wouldnt say they are reasonably priced. you probably get a nonsense tax break here for buying one , that'll be about £50 or something silly. i do like them though. but i like minis too.
in our cities though they are a dream and i can see one day soon cars like that being the only ones allowed in cities.
congestion charges in london relate to the engine size in your car and 4x4 are being taxed ar a higher rate already.
 a marathon runner raced a car across london ,and won. these tiny things may help, but obviously that doesnt account for motorway driving after leaving the city, i can imagine people not feeling safe on motorways next to lorries.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #190 on: May 22, 2007, 01:23:35 am »
With only 2 seats and only space for one shopping bag in the "back", the smart narrows it's market quite a lot (basically single women with no hopes/wishes of getting kids). Especially since for the same money you can buy a car twice the size.

On the other hand, in the Netherlands they use smarts for "ambulance" and "firetruck" and in Belgium for taxi's:
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #191 on: May 22, 2007, 01:47:16 am »
They had ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- like this in sci-fi movies in the late 70s.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #192 on: May 22, 2007, 09:01:06 am »

Plus single women who don't care if they die in a collision with anything bigger than a walnut.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #193 on: May 22, 2007, 09:16:26 am »
They had ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- like this in sci-fi movies in the late 70s.
When people mention an electric car I always have to think of the C5 that Clive Sinclair produced in the 80s.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #194 on: May 22, 2007, 09:18:12 am »

These?  Niiice.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #195 on: May 23, 2007, 07:59:09 am »
With only 2 seats and only space for one shopping bag in the "back", the smart narrows it's market quite a lot (basically single women with no hopes/wishes of getting kids). Especially since for the same money you can buy a car twice the size.

On the other hand, in the Netherlands they use smarts for "ambulance" and "firetruck" and in Belgium for taxi's:


actually, they would be great for taxis in congested cities (",). that ambulnace looks like it is a 3 wheeler  :o


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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #196 on: May 23, 2007, 08:32:35 am »
With only 2 seats and only space for one shopping bag in the "back", the smart narrows it's market quite a lot (basically single women with no hopes/wishes of getting kids). Especially since for the same money you can buy a car twice the size.

On the other hand, in the Netherlands they use smarts for "ambulance" and "firetruck" and in Belgium for taxi's:


actually, they would be great for taxis in congested cities (",). that ambulnace looks like it is a 3 wheeler  :o
Why would it work better than a normal car in a congested city? It stil gets stuck in traffic. Or do you mean it pollutes less? I seriously hope they wont show up with one of those when I'm going somewhere with some suitcases :)

I think the ambulance has a door open :P (Actually it's a paramedic car, but ambulance sounds cooler)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 08:51:39 am by patrickl »
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #197 on: May 23, 2007, 08:51:18 am »

These?  Niiice.
Yeah, cool huh? Well, back then they were considered cool, although not many were actually sold.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #198 on: May 23, 2007, 08:52:20 am »

Still cool.  If I could find one in the $300 range I'd strongly consider it to drive around the block on.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #199 on: May 23, 2007, 10:26:57 am »
With only 2 seats and only space for one shopping bag in the "back", the smart narrows it's market quite a lot (basically single women with no hopes/wishes of getting kids). Especially since for the same money you can buy a car twice the size.

On the other hand, in the Netherlands they use smarts for "ambulance" and "firetruck" and in Belgium for taxi's:


actually, they would be great for taxis in congested cities (",). that ambulnace looks like it is a 3 wheeler  :o
If they made them into taxi's, then they would look exactly like the Johnny Cab from Total Recall

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #200 on: May 23, 2007, 01:33:07 pm »
A possible reason to be more green:

KIller Waves From Nowhere:

Asian Beaches Reopen After Winds Trigger Huge Waves .
DENPASAR, Indonesia - Tourist beaches in Southeast Asia reopened on Monday after giant waves triggered by intense winds thousands of kilometres away crashed ashore last week, reviving memories of the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami.

The waves, which were 7 metres (23 feet) high in some areas late last week, struck large parts of Indonesia, the Maldives, Thailand and Western Australia. There was no official warning about the freakish waves that killed at least one person, damaged hundreds of homes and displaced thousands of people across Indonesia. Homes and fishing boats were also damaged in Thailand and the Maldives. Weather officials said the waves were the result of an accumulation of winds in one spot on the ocean, but were looking at why they were so intense....

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #201 on: May 23, 2007, 02:49:40 pm »

Rogue waves are nothing new.  I've had family members killed by them.  They suck, but it's not like we made them.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #202 on: May 23, 2007, 03:07:05 pm »

Rogue waves are nothing new.  I've had family members killed by them.  They suck, but it's not like we made them.

yep....I'm for environmental responsibility, but blaming fluke weather events -> that have been happening since the dawn of time <- on "global warming" and our society's environmental impact is just crazy talk.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #203 on: May 23, 2007, 05:39:11 pm »
I didn't say they were caused by that. I said they could possibly be influenced by. Of particular import is the cause of the waves.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #204 on: May 23, 2007, 07:03:40 pm »

Probability of fluid mechanics.  They have been happening throughout recorded history from time to time.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #205 on: May 23, 2007, 09:25:14 pm »
The cause was wind.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #206 on: May 23, 2007, 11:10:59 pm »
Air is a fluid.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #207 on: May 23, 2007, 11:49:57 pm »
I didn't say they were caused by that. I said they could possibly be influenced by. Of particular import is the cause of the waves.

Patrick, assplain to him your theory of climate not being the same as weather.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #208 on: May 24, 2007, 12:35:39 am »
Using his words doesn't make StrongBad your friend....although, you do come across sooo sexy when you're like that. Who said anything about climate? Still, climate is only part weather. It also includes region and the flora and fauna.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #209 on: May 24, 2007, 05:43:53 am »
I didn't say they were caused by that. I said they could possibly be influenced by. Of particular import is the cause of the waves.

Patrick, assplain to him your theory of climate not being the same as weather.
Why would I need to do that? I think he does understand that already.

It's not like they are completely unrelated, but what I was saying is that one freak weather day doesn't imply or disprove climate change and that getting an accurate weather report 5 days ahead is something different from a climate prediction. On the other hand, when the climate changes to allow more extreme weather conditions then of course you will see weather changes accordingly.

I still wonder why no one seems to think that finite natural resources running out is a problem. Why is it always about the climate change? Even for the most egotistical it should be obvious that decreasing oil reserves and decreasing oil production will hurt them even on a reasonably short term already (actually it does now already).
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #210 on: May 24, 2007, 04:06:12 pm »
Oil isn't in short supply. It's just harder to get at than before. There's so much oil in the marshlands of....Alaska, or Ireland, or somewhere, I forget where...that we needn't worry for a century or two. And though the techniques needed aren't in practice, they actually wouldn't be that expensive, economically. But ecologically, they'd be horrendous. Basically like strip-mining.

It's not a matter of resources. It's a matter of paradigm. There are numerous, bonafide examples of things that are more efficient and not very, sometimes even less, expensive than our current way of things, without sacrificing lifestyle (though 'more, more' is not in balance). These things have been stifled. Then imagine that even one of the 'unreal' things, say Tesla coils and that stuff, is actually possible. Totally changes things.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #211 on: May 24, 2007, 07:26:53 pm »
Oil isn't in short supply. It's just harder to get at than before. There's so much oil in the marshlands of....Alaska, or Ireland, or somewhere, I forget where...that we needn't worry for a century or two. And though the techniques needed aren't in practice, they actually wouldn't be that expensive, economically. But ecologically, they'd be horrendous. Basically like strip-mining.


Canada.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #212 on: May 24, 2007, 11:22:49 pm »

I still wonder why no one seems to think that finite natural resources running out is a problem. Why is it always about the climate change?


It is about the climate change because the "solutions" directly involve these finite natural resources.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #213 on: May 25, 2007, 12:37:03 am »
Oil isn't in short supply. It's just harder to get at than before. There's so much oil in the marshlands of....Alaska, or Ireland, or somewhere, I forget where...that we needn't worry for a century or two. And though the techniques needed aren't in practice, they actually wouldn't be that expensive, economically. But ecologically, they'd be horrendous. Basically like strip-mining.


Canada.


So does that mean in a decade or two we can expect to see canadians wearing turbans with Maple Leaf's on them?


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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #214 on: May 25, 2007, 04:24:57 am »
Oil isn't in short supply. It's just harder to get at than before.
Ehm isn't that amounting to the same thing? Oil is running out and the few remains are harder to get out of the ground. It will run out one day (if we keep using the stuff)

I wonder if the oil price going up by a factor of 2 or 4 over the next 20 years wont have a bigger impact than maybe a degree of global warming.

I have seen several reports that at least Saudia Arabia is over its peak. For instance Peak Oil for Saudi Arabia?
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #215 on: May 25, 2007, 04:37:15 am »

I still wonder why no one seems to think that finite natural resources running out is a problem. Why is it always about the climate change?


It is about the climate change because the "solutions" directly involve these finite natural resources.
The discussion often goes like, "Hey it snowed here in <insert usually warm city> so the climate is not warming and thus it is ok to drive a Canyonero". My point is that there are more problems with wasting energy (or oil in this case) besides climate change.

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I thought you said you were a thinker?
Yes and? Maybe you should try thinking once in a while too.
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #216 on: May 25, 2007, 06:40:18 am »
...

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #217 on: May 25, 2007, 10:20:16 am »
 Ok, ok. I'll bite. I was fortunate enough to get an education on going green just last night...Al Gore was on Dave Letterman. I will hit on one of the highlights of the interview for you...

Dave"What types of things can a regular person do to minimize further damage to the environment?"
Al "We need to pay attention to what we do, the types of things we purchase, educate ourselves on the type of..."
Dave interrupts "Are frozen waffles ok?"
Al "Yes. As long as you don't heat them up."
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #218 on: May 25, 2007, 12:32:25 pm »
/Rimshot!


Or Romney!

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #219 on: May 25, 2007, 04:47:34 pm »
Ha, ya ---maternal-smurfs---, just yuck it up!

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #220 on: May 25, 2007, 08:57:11 pm »

I still wonder why no one seems to think that finite natural resources running out is a problem. Why is it always about the climate change?


It is about the climate change because the "solutions" directly involve these finite natural resources.
The discussion often goes like, "Hey it snowed here in <insert usually warm city> so the climate is not warming and thus it is ok to drive a Canyonero". My point is that there are more problems with wasting energy (or oil in this case) besides climate change.

In this instance, the point you brought up was "why is it always about the climate change".  The response was because the solutions - meaning the solutions to climate change - directly involve these finite natural resources.

What are your "more problems" you're referring to?  You'll have to be less vague when asking a question you actually want an answer to, since the only other "more problems" I see (actually, the only other one I care about), is the cost going up.  Perhaps they need my heartless attitude to drive a pipeline directly through a caribou or to chop down a few hundred trees that house some owl that can fly somewhere else to live. 

If a few animals need to sacrifice so I can save fifty cents per gallon, well, that's something I'm willing to make happen.

Say, any chance of you explaining how using computer models to predict what the earth is going to be like in my area for the next three days is different from using computer models to predict what the earth is going to be like in my area in the next 50 years?

Seems as if you haven't realized the "climate" is the result of "weather".
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #221 on: May 26, 2007, 02:24:22 am »
In this instance, the point you brought up was "why is it always about the climate change".  The response was because the solutions - meaning the solutions to climate change - directly involve these finite natural resources.

What are your "more problems" you're referring to?

I said it in the post above the one you responded too, but it has to do with the relation between demand of oil and production of oil. Running out of a finite resource means there will be problems producing that resource and thus if demand doesn't go down accordingly:
I wonder if the oil price going up by a factor of 2 or 4 over the next 20 years wont have a bigger impact than maybe a degree of global warming.
I mentioned that one since even the most selfish people will realize that will be bad for their own situation, but yeah using less fuel would be better for the environment too and with less air pollution for the people as well.

Say, any chance of you explaining how using computer models to predict what the earth is going to be like in my area for the next three days is different from using computer models to predict what the earth is going to be like in my area in the next 50 years?
You really cannot see the difference? These two fields use completely different parameters and thus they use completely different computer models.

Weather predictions use atmospheric pressures (and distribution of those pressures), satellite images, radar images of rain, power of the sunsine on a certain location at a certain date. It basically predicts local wind directions, wind strength, where it will rain and by how much and what the exact (more or less) temperature will be for a certain location. All pretty detailed local information.

The climate change predictions we are discussing here look at the amount of energy being taken in by the planet (and it's atmosphere) and the amount of energy that goes back out into space. The diffrence between these two would indicate warming or cooling down. They estimate which gasses in the atmosphere are responsible for trapping heat and for each to which degree (one of those graphs I posted before). Then they predict the future amounts of these gasses in the atmosphere and estimate a global temperature for that future. This is more global and average data and completely different from what they use for weather predictions.

So at that point the two fields are just about completely unrelated. Where the relation comes back in is when weather and climate scientists together start looking at the climate change data and they estimate what the consequences of these changes will be for the local weather. They take the climate change prediction that the temperature will rise slightly, but mostly that the difference between high and low temperatures will increase (so the weather will be more volatile). For instance, they would estimate if perhaps tornado's will be more likely to occur based on their knowledge of local weather systems and the estimated temperature changes.

So there is a relation between the two fields, but a weather prediction and a climate change prediction on itself use a completely different science behind it.

Quote
Seems as if you haven't realized the "climate" is the result of "weather".
Like I said before climate is the average of weather, but alternatively you could see it as that the weather will (on average) fit in with the climate.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2007, 03:01:24 am by patrickl »
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #222 on: May 26, 2007, 02:54:27 am »
It's not easy being green.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #223 on: May 26, 2007, 05:28:48 am »
With only 2 seats and only space for one shopping bag in the "back", the smart narrows it's market quite a lot (basically single women with no hopes/wishes of getting kids). Especially since for the same money you can buy a car twice the size.

On the other hand, in the Netherlands they use smarts for "ambulance" and "firetruck" and in Belgium for taxi's:


actually, they would be great for taxis in congested cities (",). that ambulnace looks like it is a 3 wheeler  :o
Why would it work better than a normal car in a congested city? It stil gets stuck in traffic. Or do you mean it pollutes less?


1): theres more chance of bypassing accidents

2): traffic will actually be smaller

youre right though, id hate to have to actually carry anything with me in one of those! but it would be the case that you can select what type of taxi you get. if i was late for work id definitely be ordering one of the smart taxis...


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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #224 on: May 26, 2007, 02:25:45 pm »
It's not easy being green.

Cute.

patrickl: I think drew's meaning that weather is the cause of climate. An evolutional thing. I think this is sorta true, at least before bio-chemical synthesis. Then it just runs exponentially away into an interactive amalgam.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #225 on: May 27, 2007, 09:46:03 am »
The fact that you can't reliably tell me which side of a fair die will come up from a fair roll has not somehow prevented casinos from making money on the game of Craps.  :dunno
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #226 on: May 27, 2007, 10:46:58 am »
But you can tell someone statistically what combined number will come up more often that others with two dice...
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #227 on: May 27, 2007, 11:56:30 am »
Nahhh..... Surely if you can't tell me exactly what the total will be on my fifth roll from now, how can I believe you can tell me what the average total will be over five million rolls?!?  ;)
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #228 on: May 27, 2007, 01:06:19 pm »
I'm slow today :)
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #229 on: May 27, 2007, 01:43:57 pm »
Nahhh..... Surely if you can't tell me exactly what the total will be on my fifth roll from now, how can I believe you can tell me what the average total will be over five million rolls?!?  ;)
I can tell you the exact probability of what could come up in five rolls, you can't tell me the exact probability of what the weather will be in 5 days.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #230 on: May 27, 2007, 02:05:35 pm »
Nahhh..... Surely if you can't tell me exactly what the total will be on my fifth roll from now, how can I believe you can tell me what the average total will be over five million rolls?!?  ;)
I can tell you the exact probability of what could come up in five rolls, you can't tell me the exact probability of what the weather will be in 5 days.

Sure you can.  50% chance of sunny.  I should start my own religion based on this!
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #231 on: May 27, 2007, 04:35:28 pm »
  50% chance of sunny.  I should start my own religion based on this!

I thought you already had your hands in the cookie jar.


And, something cute I came across:

ecosexual n. A single, environmentally conscious person with a strong aesthetic sense. Also: eco-sexual.
óecosexuality n.


Example Citations:
I'm not sure whether to blame it on the Stern report on climate change or Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth, but being green has never been more fashionable nor annoying.

The competitiveness by some to be an eco-warrior is so out of control that it now extends to the world of dating and the birth of the ''ecosexual''.

Good looks, a sense of humour, education and high income count for zilch these days if you don't eat organic, wear organic and recycle.

To get lucky, you have to think globally and act locally in your day-to-day living.
óAnita Quigley, "Beware the tree-loving ecosexual," The Daily Telegraph, December 20, 2006

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #232 on: May 27, 2007, 10:27:37 pm »
I can tell you the exact probability of what could come up in five rolls, you can't tell me the exact probability of what the weather will be in 5 days.
Prove it. Don't forget to explain how rolling, reflection, cross-sectional drag and rotational momentum work since you have stated you can give me an exact probability.  ;D
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #233 on: May 27, 2007, 11:03:59 pm »
And don't forget the influence that my need for money has on the dice either.  Whether or not I can easily afford to loose the money I have on the pass line usually has a distinct effect on the outcome, if I shouldn't have bet in the first place I'm sure to loose.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #234 on: May 28, 2007, 01:09:16 am »
I can tell you the exact probability of what could come up in five rolls, you can't tell me the exact probability of what the weather will be in 5 days.
Prove it. Don't forget to explain how rolling, reflection, cross-sectional drag and rotational momentum work since you have stated you can give me an exact probability.  ;D

Sure, theres a 1 in 36 probability that any particular combination will hit.  Since the throw will always give a completely random variable to the equation which will effect all the other variables you mentioned, it becomes equally likely that any sides of the dice will come up.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #235 on: May 28, 2007, 01:39:45 am »
And don't forget the influence that my need for money has on the dice either.  Whether or not I can easily afford to loose the money I have on the pass line usually has a distinct effect on the outcome, if I shouldn't have bet in the first place I'm sure to loose.
Too true, too true. :applaud:


I can tell you the exact probability of what could come up in five rolls, you can't tell me the exact probability of what the weather will be in 5 days.
Prove it. Don't forget to explain how rolling, reflection, cross-sectional drag and rotational momentum work since you have stated you can give me an exact probability.  ;D
Sure, theres a 1 in 36 probability that any particular combination will hit.  Since the throw will always give a completely random variable to the equation which will effect all the other variables you mentioned, it becomes equally likely that any sides of the dice will come up.
Huh, that's weird. That doesn't look like a physics "proof", but I guess we just have to take your word for it.  :dunno
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #236 on: May 28, 2007, 01:54:41 am »
And don't forget the influence that my need for money has on the dice either.  Whether or not I can easily afford to loose the money I have on the pass line usually has a distinct effect on the outcome, if I shouldn't have bet in the first place I'm sure to loose.

What?

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #237 on: May 28, 2007, 01:57:16 am »
Huh, that's weird. That doesn't look like a physics "proof", but I guess we just have to take your word for it.  :dunno
rofl.  I'm sorry, but I have better things to do with my time then formulate scientific proof's to disprove a minor point in a thread I care little about.  The only reason I gave a serious response in this thread is because of the glaring hole in your example.  You should feel free to formulate a proof to support your theory that the climate is like craps and prove me wrong.

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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #238 on: May 28, 2007, 03:31:02 am »
And don't forget the influence that my need for money has on the dice either.  Whether or not I can easily afford to loose the money I have on the pass line usually has a distinct effect on the outcome, if I shouldn't have bet in the first place I'm sure to loose.

What?

The above exchange is darned near hysterical :laugh2: :laugh2:
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #239 on: May 28, 2007, 04:13:23 am »
Huh, that's weird. That doesn't look like a physics "proof", but I guess we just have to take your word for it.  :dunno
rofl.  I'm sorry, but I have better things to do with my time then formulate scientific proof's to disprove a minor point in a thread I care little about.  The only reason I gave a serious response in this thread is because of the glaring hole in your example.  You should feel free to formulate a proof to support your theory that the climate is like craps and prove me wrong.
Apparently not.  :laugh2:

Since most people here haven't studied Brownian motion, special relativity, aerodynamics, plastics molding, and so on, my point remains that you have assigned those probabilities via observation, not proof. Thus, it is equally valid for me to make assertions regarding the probabilities of the weather using observations too. If you found that over time the 6-side of the die was starting to wear away and thus the resulting roles were changing, would you still cling to your personal belief that the odds of every combination was 1 in 36? Or would you instead wonder what would happen if we really did roll the dice five billion times?  :dunno

Global Warming is one of those discussions where I don't particularly favour one "Church" over another (as Drew would say), but I do object to people poo-poo-ing the scientific method just because of the politics being used by various parties. I too get annoyed when people confuse actual discussion with some idiots that make tabloid movies about Bush being the Saudi Boogyman, or about a dude who wishes he was a rodeo cowboy or something (I don't know how it ends because none of us could stand to watch it all the way through).  :blah:
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Re: How 'green' are you?
« Reply #240 on: May 28, 2007, 04:36:03 am »
Apparently not.  :laugh2:

Since most people here haven't studied Brownian motion, special relativity, aerodynamics, plastics molding, and so on, my point remains that you have assigned those probabilities via observation, not proof. Thus, it is equally valid for me to make assertions regarding the probabilities of the weather using observations too. If you found that over time the 6-side of the die was starting to wear away and thus the resulting roles were changing, would you still cling to your personal belief that the odds of every combination was 1 in 36? Or would you instead wonder what would happen if we really did roll the dice five billion times?  :dunno
Huh, that's weird. That doesn't look like a physics "proof", but I guess we just have to take your word for it.
 ;D

Obviously a worn down die likely wouldn't have equal odds for each side, which is probably one of the reasons why casino's usually change the dice out a few times each day.  I haven't taken one side or the other in this thread either, I just thought your example was flawed.