dumb? question - trackball mounting

[alandrogers]

I have a happs 3" trackball.

like this: http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/560100e.htm

the wood cut templates I have look like this though (see attached) and they're supposed to be for happ trackballs. I don't understand why the weird shape cut there.

the dumb question ... why not just cut that 3.25" square area around the ball?

am i missing something? does somebody have a photo of their construction / trackball mount?

[Chris G]

You could probably get away with doing that, however, depending on the thickness of the panel you're using, you may end up having to route out that extra area from the underside anyway to make it flush on the top.  I don't have that particular trackball, so I'm not sure the depth between the upper and lower sections.

Chris

[Kaytrim]

I am assuming that you are mounting on a wood CP.  The outer square is for the mounting plate.  This needs to be routed on the CP top if you want a flush mounted trackball.  The small squares are for the screws in the plate.  The inner square is for the trackball housing and needs to be cut through the CP for the trackball to be used properly.  Otherwise the trackball will be too low in the CP and unusable.  You don't have to cut the weird shape just the square if you want.  Below are two images of my install.  I am using a module that will plug into my main CP but the process is still the same.  My mounting plate was routed a little too much so I filled in with wood putty.

TTFN 
Kaytrim

[Racer_X]

It's certainly not a dumb question, as I was struggling with this yesterday!

Kaytrim - I want to make sure I understand you correctly:

For my cardboard mockup, I cut out a bit more space than the gap in the mounting plate so that the trackball and the ring around it fit into the plate and all of the screws connect.  Are you saying that we should essentially cut out everything such that the entire track ball unit fits flush against the mounting plate on the underside? 

This would mean we would route out the mounting plate dimensions in the top for a flush fit, then cut out the space necessary for the entire track ball unit so that there is nothing between the unit and the mounting plate, and the whole assembly is attached to the control panel via the four screws in the mounting plate?

[Kaytrim]

It's certainly not a dumb question, as I was struggling with this yesterday!

Kaytrim - I want to make sure I understand you correctly:

For my cardboard mockup, I cut out a bit more space than the gap in the mounting plate so that the trackball and the ring around it fit into the plate and all of the screws connect.  Are you saying that we should essentially cut out everything such that the entire track ball unit fits flush against the mounting plate on the underside? 

This would mean we would route out the mounting plate dimensions in the top for a flush fit, then cut out the space necessary for the entire track ball unit so that there is nothing between the unit and the mounting plate, and the whole assembly is attached to the control panel via the four screws in the mounting plate?

You got it.  As long as there is enough in the corners to support the screws in the plate and give a lip around the edges you should be fine.  I would say no less than 3/16" for the lip and 5/8" for the corners.  The corner measurement is a guess so don't take it as exact.  IIRC I measured 1" from the corners and drew diagonals to cover the screws then left 1/2" on the edges.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[moriartyds]

This would mean we would route out the mounting plate dimensions in the top for a flush fit, then cut out the space necessary for the entire track ball unit so that there is nothing between the unit and the mounting plate, and the whole assembly is attached to the control panel via the four screws in the mounting plate?

Maybe I don't understand your question but why wouldn't you just cut out the 'football' shape as indicated on the pattern?  If you leave the little triangles in the two corners as shown on the pattern, you get some extras support which could help out if you have someone who is particularly rough on the trackball.  The football shaped pattern isn't that much more difficult to cut than a square one.
(definitely route the mounting plate though if you want a flat CP top).

[u_rebelscum]

Kaytrim described it pretty well, but if you want a picture see below for quick and dirty paste of how the TB fits in the cutout:

yellow = (optional) routed out from top thickness of plate
green  = (optional) leave in for CP strength, or cutout
white  = cutout to fit TB case
blue   = amount of visable ball
grey   = "lip" or "rim": the part of TB case that is visable
red circle (around grey lip) = hole in mounting plate for TB & lip.

[u_rebelscum]

Are you saying that we should essentially cut out everything such that the entire track ball unit fits flush against the mounting plate on the underside?

Yes.

This would mean we would ... cut out the space necessary for the entire track ball unit so that there is nothing between the unit and the mounting plate, and the whole assembly is attached to the control panel via the four screws in the mounting plate?

Basically yes.  The reason it was working without cutting all the way through with your mockout was the cardboard is ~1/8" thick.  However, wood (+plexi) CPs are between 5/8" - 1" thick; usually 3/4" wood plus (if any) plexi.

the dumb question ... why not just cut that 3.25" square area around the ball?

To address this directly, the ball is in the case, and the case must be very close to the top of the CP for the ball to stick out above the CP.  Here's side views of the tops of two different happs models:

The left is the "high lip" model, the right is the old school aka "normal" aka "original". 

As you can see, with the normal & high lip models, it is possible to cut the hole smaller than the football to the size & shape of the case just below the lip, but you'll have to route the football shape so that arm doesn't get stopped by the bottom of the CP (assuming your CP is thicker that the ~0.5 inch difference). Note that there is a third model, the "high ball" model, that you cannot cut+route the underside like this, because the body of the case is the thickness of the arm.

[BobA]

Thanks u_rebelscum very well explained and documented.   I was a little hazy on this but your info helps alot.

[Kaytrim]

A question was posed in the Wiki forum to get information like this into the Wiki.  Anybody want to take on the Happ install?  Randy said that he could handle the Beston model.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64615.0

TTFN 
Kaytrim

[alandrogers]

I'm a visual guy... thanks u_rebelscum -- that one multicolor picture pretty much explains what I couldn't figure out.

it has to be cutout so the whole mount has to be up right under the plate. got it. thank you very much.

now i understand.

[shatter]

For the install of the betson imperial trackball I am using my buddy routed out everything from the underside of the playfield and bent up some aluminum brackets used to mount the trackball to the underside of the control panel. The end result is a completely clean look from the top.

[ids]

For that Betson - you had to cut through the panel for the entire area of the thing?  Then it's held in place with the brackets?  And is hiding just under that wood veneer?  If you have any more info or advice - please share.  I need to mount the same thing.

btw - is that some type of LED setup in the bottom-center of the betson (perhaps the GGG offering?)

[Kaytrim]

That is not a venier, the whole top is made from a piece of plywood.  The area for the trackball is cut out with a router just leaving a thin piece to hide the case.  The device you see there is the LEDWiz from GGG

[ARTIFACT]

thx for all the great info posted here

i am installing mine this weekend ... will do a couple of scrap tests first

[unclet]

I did "not" cut out the inner square but rather kept the extra triangles in the corner for support.  My kid bangs on the trackball out of frustration sometimes .... I am trying to break that habit quickly, but at least the trackball mounting screws have not ripped out of the panel.   I think leaving the triangle corners there for support is well worth it.

Just think about getting your complete control panel finished and someone bangs on the trackball out of frustration and one of the trackball corner mounting screws rips through the control panel  ..... now what do you do ....... re-cut a whole new control panel top.   Yikes.

[ids]

Very nice (routing down to a thin "veneer")- something to consider - too stewpud to think of this meself.

One more question (with 1000 apologies, as I haven't worked out all the details just yet - feel free to ignore me)  -- would a Happs (eg 3") mounting plate cover more surface area, and hence provide a reasonable method of securing this overly large beast?  (and if so, is there enuf of the ball sticking out out of the panel?)

btw, thanks (Kaytrim) for all the help so far -- I rly hate being the newb full of stupid questions

[Kaytrim]

-- would a Happs (eg 3") mounting plate cover more surface area, and hence provide a reasonable method of securing this overly large beast?  (and if so, is there enuf of the ball sticking out out of the panel?)

I believe that it is the same mount.  Someone correct me if I am wrong...  One thing to consider with the Happs mount is that most people countersink the mount into the CP so the top of the mount is flush.  This is about 1/8" to 1/4" IIRC.

btw, thanks (Kaytrim) for all the help so far -- I rly hate being the newb full of stupid questions

It's ok ids.  We were all noobs at one time. 

[ids]

thanks again, just found some posts mentioning the Happs plate being compatible with the over-large betson.  Routing the top of the panel to flush mount the plate seems like the only sensible option.  And gives me a reason to buy another power tool  (sounds like a router is a cab builders best friend anyway)

Other posts seem to indicate the Booster Kit: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=74&products_id=283 is well worth it too.  And of course, the lighting kit: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=74&products_id=273


Those cheap Betsons are gunna end up costing me in the end ... money well spent tho.

Saw another poster mentioning pulling the top half of the plastic crap off... need to look more into that option too.   May try a quick mouse hack just to start playing with this thing    (can't wait, getting a bit obsessive lately).  And the latest mame w/ dual-mouse support... i may end up building a frankenpanel w/ two trackballs - just need a keyboard encoder + program it with "enable cheats in marble madness" 


Thanks again for all the help.  BYOAC rox 

[xmenxmen]

That's what I am going to be doing this weekend.  Here's a shot from someone else.

[xmenxmen]

and another one.  It also allow the trackball to sit higher light the high ball.

[xmenxmen]

and the mouse hack.  I use the 2 button scroll ms mouse that can be found laying everywhere now.  Check with your buddy or friends, they most likely have them seating around collecting dust.  Very easy to hack and works well.

[ids]

Thanks for the pix.  Have just soldered the mouse and about to test.

I think I like this approach the best: no routing, higher ball, no more stuff to pay shipping on (gets expensive having things sent up here to Canada).

unfortunately, the only ball mouse i could find is a serial one and no time to go hunt for another.  May have to leach +5 and grnd from a HD connector, this serial mouse is a bit wacky.  Fingers crossed....