New product sneak peek photos...

[Frostillicus]

I would get into a 2" aluminum machined knob as well - I currently have a 2" old volume knob and it has great feel to it.   having the mame logo engraved would be nice too.  I can't wait for pre-orders  

EDIT : I meant to say I used it with an older model 2 spinner and it felt great  I'm am spinner-less right now, though.

[SirPoonga]

Do you have a picture of it attached to a board, the top side with the knob?

[OSCAR]

Yep, already done.  Read the 720 thread sometime.
720 used a 72 encoder disc.   And it uses a 2 slot calibration.  I think I could hack this spinner just by making two of the grooves deeper and adding a second set of IRs.  It'd take both axis of a mouse.  urebel has the code integrated into analog+ mame to support that..  Just need a good knob that works well since I doubt it would be easy to make a joystick work.

Yes, I am aware of all of this.  What I was referring to was I don't know how easy it would be to hack a DOT spinner for 720, nor do I know how realistic the play would be with a hacked DOT spinner because I'm not familiar with how the original 720 controller reacted as it used roller chain and a couple sprockets if I'm not mistaken.  I imagine a DOT spinner could be hacked into a psuedo-720 controller, but would it be akin to playing Ikari Warriors with a DOT spinner and standard joystick?  All the functionality is there, but how realistic would the play be?  That I can't answer.

I'll upload a top view photo of it installed later this evening hopefully.  From the top, though, it looks like any other spinner installed.  All you see is a shaft poking up through a hole with a knob on top.

[SirPoonga]

nor do I know how realistic the play would be with a hacked DOT spinner because I'm not familiar with how the original 720 controller reacted as it used roller chain and a couple sprockets if I'm not mistaken.  

If I remember the conversation the chain was for friction, that way if the joystick was left facing north it stayed there, instead of gravity from the slanted cp pulling it towards south.

Yeah, I know what you mean by the ikari comment, but right now 720 is not playable at all.  Need something where you know what direction the skater is in.  Even the knob of yours with the dimple in it is better than absolutely nothing right now  Anyway, I do have an idea on how to make a hack that is 90% realistic made from off the shelf parts, but I need detailed photos of the original stick.  Well, off the shelf once I get a 72 tooth spinner

[Magnet_Eye]

I think Poonga is stoned.  

[SirPoonga]

I think Poonga is stoned.  

Hehe, actually, the idea I have is very simple, I just need to get my hands on some parts  

[jerryjanis]

Oh, man!  Oscar that totally rocks!  I'm amazed - that spinner looks perfect!  Finally, a mass-produced Zwackery controller!

http://www.zwackery.net/Zwackery.htm

"The game uses controls identical to Discs of Tron, which makes it difficult to get the hang of right away, but once you become accustomed to the controls, you'll have a blast."

Could someone explain to me the control setup of DOT, cuz i never totally figured it out myself.

Left hand: an 'up/down' spinner which controls where you will aim when you throw discs.  spin left/right to aim left/right, and pull up on the spinner or push it down to aim up (towards the ceiling) or down (towards the floor).  The up/down aspect of the spinner is not used in the game until the later levels when the platforms move up and down.

In the right hand, there is an 8-way joystick with two buttons.  Move the joystick to run around on the platforms.  The buttons are fire and shield.

were the encoder wheels for DOT and 720 the same size or number spokes?

I didn't take anything apart, so it was a little tough to measure and the measurements may not be very precise, but it looked to me like the encoder wheel for both games was about 4 1/4" in diameter.  The DOT wheel has 128 holes and the main 720 spinner has 72 holes.

Just need a good knob that works well since I doubt it would be easy to make a joystick work.

Yesterday I spent some time trying to get an analog joystick to control 720...  It's proving to be a lot tougher than I had hoped (720 doesn't like it when I do a simple conversion of joystick angle->720 angle), but I'll keep at it...  If I do eventually get that working, it's tough to tell which would be more playable - a hacked spinner or an analog joystick.

[SirPoonga]

Yesterday I spent some time trying to get an analog joystick to control 720...  It's proving to be a lot tougher than I had hoped (720 doesn't like it when I do a simple conversion of joystick angle->720 angle), but I'll keep at it...  If I do eventually get that working, it's tough to tell which would be more playable - a hacked spinner or an analog joystick.

Back to geometry, just using sin and cosine to determine the angle from an y and x coordinate, right?  I know modern joystick code isn;t as simple as the old dos days.  What's causing the trouble?

[jerryjanis]

Back to geometry, just using sin and cosine to determine the angle from an y and x coordinate, right?

My sentiments exactly...  

When I was working on getting an 8-way joystick to work with 720, I came up with this drawing showing the values that I can use for each direction...  Notice at about the 4 o'clock position, there was a little unsolved mystery ()...  For some reason, 720 didn't like it when I went from 4 o'clock to 3 o'clock - it would totally freak out...  It works fine with the 8-way joystick because I simply skip that transition.  However, the problem returns with the analog joystick.  I can skip that value and it works fine, but it really sucks to have it work ALMOST perfectly and then totally skip that one direction.  So now I'm working on something that might be way too complicated to actually work...  I'm watching the change in the joystick angle and adding that to the mouse cursor value (so that it actually works mostly like a spinner instead of a joystick)...  I need to go back to college, though, and take a class on circle mathematics...  I'm sure that there are really smart ways to do what I'm trying to do.

[SirPoonga]

Where did those values come from?  radians?

I can't believe I said radians, that's 2pie.

Well, I'm an applied math major, so I could help you apply some math.

[jerryjanis]

Where did those values come from?  radians?

Those are the numeric values for the mouse that I use in the Mame code that result in the skateboarder pointing in the said direction.  However, it doesn't work quite like that because it's a spinner and uses values that increase/decrease as you spin around and around (that was just a good hack to use for the 8way joystick which doesn't work with the analog joystick, darnitall).

[skirge66]

can this spinner be used for frontlines by chance?

[Minwah]

I only just spotted this thread - once again WOW, great work Oscar

I'm kinda glad I haven't got round to mounting my Oscar Pro now...

Quick question: Will the leaf switches be interface-able to the USB mouse board out-of-the-box?  Or will we just solder the switches to the mouse button switches?  Either way, it would be good (for me) to not have to use the IPAC.

[Lilwolf]

Sorry no.  Frontline uses a special controller thats basically an 8way joysticks that is always pointing in a direction.  It would need a mouse interface to be used with a 720 interface... And without a way to sync it, it wouldn't be all that useful.  Currently there isn't any good solutions.  A SNK 12 way might work at some point, but you would have to modify the driver to take "L" and "R" buttons instead of up, down, left, right.

can this spinner be used for frontlines by chance?

[OSCAR]

The leaf switches could certainly be attached to the USB mouse buttons.  I have been considering making the mouse buttons prewired with female quick disconnects an option.  This seems like it could be a good compliment to the DOT spinner so it could be interfaced completely through the USB mouse.

And yes, Lilwolf is correct.  Unfortunately Frontline does not accept an analog input for the rotation.

[Minwah]

The leaf switches could certainly be attached to the USB mouse buttons.  I have been considering making the mouse buttons prewired with female quick disconnects an option.  This seems like it could be a good compliment to the DOT spinner so it could be interfaced completely through the USB mouse.

That would be great...my soldering iron is broke!  

[clok]

I am SO ready to order one, DISC of Tron and Tempest (almost my 2 favorites).  Kudos to Oscar.  Cant say how happy this will make me when it comes out!

On a side note, (about Frontline) if this was just a joystick ( the spinner type thing) could you use a second 8 way Joystick with each dir mapped ( also the fire button mapped on each Dir) to fire?

Clok


Oh... I wont name my first Girl after Oscar, but my next pet might get the honor (would that be an honor?)  I know when I make my Bezel Artwork (someday) Oscar will get a Thanks on that!!!!

[SirPoonga]

I know when I make my Bezel Artwork (someday) Oscar will get a Thanks on that!!!!

There we go, Oscar stickers, Mame stickers, Ultimarc stickers, etc..  Your CP will look like an import racer.  Maybe yellow stickers will make the emulation faster.  We could laugh at the people who have stickers for parts no on their CP.

[rampy]

I know when I make my Bezel Artwork (someday) Oscar will get a Thanks on that!!!!

There we go, Oscar stickers, Mame stickers, Ultimarc stickers, etc..  Your CP will look like an import racer.  Maybe yellow stickers will make the emulation faster.  We could laugh at the people who have stickers for parts no on their CP.

Ha.... just like nascar, even...

"The Oscar, AMD, MAME, Imperial Beston, machine ran real well today... Got lots of bite out of the machined aluminum spinner and the crew did  a great job tweaking the Emulaxian FE out there today... "

[Aceldamor]

Ha.... just like nascar, even...

"The Oscar, AMD, MAME, Imperial Beston, machine ran real well today... Got lots of bite out of the machined aluminum spinner and the crew did  a great job tweaking the Emulaxian FE out there today... "

LOL!!!



Great work Oscar....been hesitating buying spinners for a while now.  quick question..  With the DOT spinner's weight how feasible would it be to use the spinners as mock steering wheels?

[OSCAR]

LOL, Rampy!  Very funny!


Regarding using them as steering wheels, they will work just fine with with any of the games that originally used a 360deg wheel.  I'll post back with more info later on this as I will be doing a lot more intensive testing this weekend on various games.


I received some very good news late today regarding the DOT repro knobs.  It looks like I will be able to offer a replica DOT knob in black anodized aluminum.  Dimensionally it will be identical to the original DOT knob, the biggest difference will obviously be that it will be a machined aluminum knob in lieu of plastic.  The price of this one will be very close to the machined knobs I carry now, somewhere around the $14-$16  range.  Will there be enough interest in this knob for me to pursue it and have them fabricated?  I will need to have quite a large quantity fabricated to meet my expected sell price, but so far I have only had a few requests for it.  Let me know on this one; either by posting here, PM me, or just send me an email.

For those that aren't familiar with the DOT knob, I have a photo here.

Thanks again for everyone's input!

[jerryjanis]

I'm hoping that I don't order one of your spinners because I already have an original (but I'm soooo tempted - don't know why...).

I don't know if my opinion counts, but I would definetly rather have a reproduction DOT knob - somebody made a really good point that you might want the shape of the knob to make your hand not slip when you push and pull it.

[Sasquatch!]

Maybe yellow stickers will make the emulation faster.  We could laugh at the people who have stickers for parts no on their CP.

Don't be stupid, everyone knows that having fins on your cabinet is what makes emulation faster.

[SirPoonga]

Nope, it's yellow stickers, lots of yellow stickers, improves HP by 5 per sticker.

[OSCAR]

Don't forget some duct tape.  Real teams always use duct tape for that extra edge.

[shmokes]

It's hard to say.  Do the reproduction DOT knobs have any tactile or competitive advantage?  I mean, I know that the shape is meant to keep your hand from slipping, but does it?  The thing is, I really REALLY like that brushed aluminum look.  I'm also a fan of the big two inch knobs offered by slikstik.

So authenticity is clearly not my main concern.  Playability is important, though, but since I know that won't be an issue with anything Oscar builds I'm kind of leaning toward aesthetics.  Not sure how the black machined aluminum DOT reproduction knob would look compared with the original plastic one, but as far as aesthetic value goes, the plastic DOT is a bit of an eyesore compared with a brushed MAME engraved knob.

Perhaps if the extra functionality is significant I would go for the authentic one, but if it's all nostalgia I'll just stick with brushed aluminum, thanks.

[MinerAl]

$15 for the best knob wouldn't bother me at all.

If I could get the whole package (knob and spinner) for less than $100 I'd order in a heartbeat.

[Xiaou2]

 I have to say.... that its very cool to see an older arcade control almost idencally produced!  Much props to Oscar.

 
  However... It would be even better if the design were somehow modded to use ball bearings for a smoother spin.

  The DOT spinner is a bit too frictiony to use with any other 360 degree games... and is a real effort to move for long periods.

  Obviously, such a mod might be very hard to produce due to the complex nature of the inner/outter bearing setup... but again... would make purchasing the thing a lot more viable.

   Any ideas on possible bearing mod?


 

[OSCAR]

It's hard to say.  Do the reproduction DOT knobs have any tactile or competitive advantage?  I mean, I know that the shape is meant to keep your hand from slipping, but does it?  The thing is, I really REALLY like that brushed aluminum look.  I'm also a fan of the big two inch knobs offered by slikstik.

So authenticity is clearly not my main concern.  Playability is important, though, but since I know that won't be an issue with anything Oscar builds I'm kind of leaning toward aesthetics.  Not sure how the black machined aluminum DOT reproduction knob would look compared with the original plastic one, but as far as aesthetic value goes, the plastic DOT is a bit of an eyesore compared with a brushed MAME engraved knob.

Perhaps if the extra functionality is significant I would go for the authentic one, but if it's all nostalgia I'll just stick with brushed aluminum, thanks.

Thanks for your comments.  Since a 2" knob keeps getting mentioned, probably more often than the DOT knob, I can look into that.  I just question though how did 2" get determined to be the correct size for a spinner?  Would 2.25" be better?  Perhaps 1.75" or 2.5"?  I can have them made any size, that's not the problem.

I have already played with a number of different knob diameters, and I can honestly say that I think Tempest sucks with a 2" or larger knob.  The original had a 1.25", and that just allows for quicker action on the spinner.  Since I play Tempest probably more than any other game that is important to me, but it may not mean much at all so someone who doesn't play Tempest often.  I'm just looking for input here, what size would be most desireable if I had another knob fabricated?

I don't feel that the DOT knob prevents your hand from slipping off, but it is a much more comfortable shape to palm than a straight, cylindrical knob because it allows you easily curl your fingers under the knob without them getting crushed when you push the knob down to the control panel.  Otherwise, with a cylindrical knob like my current machined aluminum, you would keep your fingers primarily on the knurled portion of the knob.  If you were to use the push/pull features of the spinner often, this may be something to consider.

 I have to say.... that its very cool to see an older arcade control almost idencally produced!  Much props to Oscar.

 
  However... It would be even better if the design were somehow modded to use ball bearings for a smoother spin.

  The DOT spinner is a bit too frictiony to use with any other 360 degree games... and is a real effort to move for long periods.

  Obviously, such a mod might be very hard to produce due to the complex nature of the inner/outter bearing setup... but again... would make purchasing the thing a lot more viable.

   Any ideas on possible bearing mod?

Thanks, Steve.  I had mentioned earlier that I lightened up the mass of the spinner just slightly to address the heavy feel of the spinner.  What I didn't mention is that I took an extra .001" out of the bearing to lighten up the feel of the spinner as well.  This keeps mine from feeling so "frictiony".  The original DOT is a beast, I'll be the first to admit that.  I think you will find that my DOT is more friendly to multiple spinner games than the orginal DOT because of the modifications I've made to the design.

I currently do not have plans to do a bearing modification to the DOT.  However if you would like to pursue modifying one you purchase, I can help you with that.

[Wienerdog]

I'm in for the DOT repro knob as you mentioned.

I'm not sure if you do your own engraving, but how about offering a DOT repro with the Mame logo on it?  I think that is a cool option of your sliver knob.

[Lilwolf]

I would go with the DOT knob myself.  (have you come up with an estimate price yet??).

Why?

I believe that the design of the knob will allow you to push it up and down easier.  

And I like the look.

But how well does it work with non-dot games would be the question I guess.

[pocketz]

i double and triple checked the spin on all 3 of my genuine dot spinners. two of the 3 have ultra silky gliding spinner action, the 3rd has a tiny bit more drag maybe because the knob shaft is slightly bent. if your dot spinner is a beast maybe its in need of a good cleaning and oiling.

the spin isnt really heavy either, after reading all this talk about how its a beast i was suprised at how light the spin of my dot spinner feels. maybe you should take a multivitamin or eat a bowl of wheaties.  

oscar, did you need to get a license from bally/midway/disney to make copies of the dot spinners? im gonna guess that there is some kinda patent or something. not that i care but as this hobby gets bigger and bigger, they might want a piece of the pie. better to ask them now instead of two or three years down the road bally/midway/disney wanting back royalties after youve already sold a few thousand.

-pocketz

[shmokes]

A FEW THOUSAND!!!  Are there that many of us   ?

You know, I might have to take back what I said.  The more I look at that DOT spinner the more I kind of like it.  It's really growing on me.  I'm starting to think that I might go for the DOT spinner over the brushed one.  

[OSCAR]

i double and triple checked the spin on all 3 of my genuine dot spinners. two of the 3 have ultra silky gliding spinner action, the 3rd has a tiny bit more drag maybe because the knob shaft is slightly bent. if your dot spinner is a beast maybe its in need of a good cleaning and oiling.

the spin isnt really heavy either, after reading all this talk about how its a beast i was suprised at how light the spin of my dot spinner feels. maybe you should take a multivitamin or eat a bowl of wheaties.  

oscar, did you need to get a license from bally/midway/disney to make copies of the dot spinners? im gonna guess that there is some kinda patent or something. not that i care but as this hobby gets bigger and bigger, they might want a piece of the pie. better to ask them now instead of two or three years down the road bally/midway/disney wanting back royalties after youve already sold a few thousand.

-pocketz

Perhaps I should have added a comparison than just stating that it was a beast.  I certainly don't want to offend the proud owner of 3 DOT spinners!  

I agree that the DOT's do have very smooth action.  I'm not saying that there is anything wrong at all with the original DOT design, in fact it is very sturdy and smooth!   But have you compared your DOT spinner directly with a Tempest spinner?  I have and the DOT does seem a bit beastly in that comparison as a Tempest spinner is very light (aluminum flywheel), that's all I meant.  One of my goals was to make the DOT a bit more MAME-friendly in that it would feel just as good in a game like Tempest as well as Tron.  Even so, it still feels much more like a Tron spinner that a Tempest spinner.


Nothing firm on the price yet, I hope to have that cleared up early this coming week.  The DOT knob is not very well suited to engraving because the flat spot on the top of the knob is fairly small.  Right now I'm not planning on engraving the DOT knobs.

[Aceldamor]

I'm a big fan of the DOT knob, I would buy one or two

Oscar....I'm going to be sending you a lot of money I don't have soon!    I have to get 2 spinners.....

[Distortion]

If it's availible by somtime this summer, I'll be all over it.  I've wanted a spinner for some time, but never really wanted it bad enough.  This, I believe, would be my calling.  I wouldn't buy the DOT spinner unless I had the DOT knob, otherwise, I'd just get the pro model or something.

[shmokes]

la la la....*pulling my hair out in anticipation*...la dee da...

[OSCAR]

Thanks for the feedback on the DOT knobs.  I've gone ahead and had them started.  They will be machined aluminum and black anodized.  I don't think I've mentioned it before, but the DOT knob is 1.75" diameter for those that aren't familiar with it.

The release of the DOT knobs will lag behind the release of the DOT spinners by a few weeks since I just had them started.  I'll post back when I get a confirmation on the delivery date of the DOT knobs.

I'm also finishing up the pricing on the DOT spinner and I will post that in the next couple of days.

[1UP]

WOW!  I go away for a couple weeks and I miss everything!  Oscar, are you trying to kill me here?    I never thought I'd give up my Pro, but now I might have to!  Just hope it will fit in the same amount of space...  Any chance on an upgrade special for Pro owners?  

This makes my crappy little up/down hack look pathetic...

[shmokes]

Hah!  1UP, you must be rolling in money.  You've already got a Pro with up/down functionality and you're going to swap out with a brand new, presumably expensive spinner?

Pick one up for me while you're at it   !