Author Topic: ultimarc u360 versus happs p360...to the death...! (Read 7323 times)

fixedpigs · « **on:** January 10, 2007, 11:43:17 pm »

i was looking at getting a couple of p360 joysticks for my cabinet...but then i've recently seen posts regarding the ultimarc u360...

what justification is there to the fifty percent increase in price over the p360...?

the usb is nice...anything else...?

thanks...!

leapinlew · « **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2007, 12:00:51 am »

Yes, the biggest feature is their ability to switch profiles on the fly.

You load up:
Qbert - only the diagonals work.
Ms. Pacman - it's a 4 way
Defender - 2 way up and down
Galaga - 2 way right and left
Robotron - 8 way
I've even heard it's decent as a 49 way...

fatfingers · « **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2007, 07:13:59 am »

I believe one other reason they are more expensive is you don't need a keyboard encoder with them as they support 7 (?) buttons each. Note that I know nothing about the P360s, so I am assuming that is a difference.

davieboynj · « **Reply #3 on:** January 11, 2007, 09:20:33 am »

It's not even a comparison: the only thing you can compare to the u360 is a 49 way with a 49 way encoder.

The p360 is overpriced for what it is, completely unconfigurable, and unless you get a replacement actuator, has some pretty crappy diagonals. While the p360 was a wico upgrade it was actually fairly cheap, then happs happened.

Kaytrim · « **Reply #4 on:** January 11, 2007, 09:23:29 am »

According to Happ's website the P360 is only a 4-way/8-way joystick. On Ultimarc's website the U360 is an any-way analog joystick that can handle up to 8 buttons.

fixedpigs · « **Reply #5 on:** January 11, 2007, 11:54:30 am »

good stuff to know...!

i would like to use a keywiz & ledwiz...there shouldn't be any problems with the u360 right...i'd just not be taking advantage of the button support with the u360...?

thanks again...!

Kaytrim · « **Reply #6 on:** January 11, 2007, 01:40:54 pm »

Quote from: fixedpigs on January 11, 2007, 11:54:30 am

good stuff to know...!

i would like to use a keywiz & ledwiz...there shouldn't be any problems with the u360 right...i'd just not be taking advantage of the button support with the u360...?

thanks again...!

You should have no problems because they are all USB devices. If I was doing it all over again and had the money I would use two u360 joys, KeyWiz, LEDwiz, and OptiWiz. For now I will be saving my money so I can get the U360 joys.

Good luck on your build.

Chris · « **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2007, 01:47:40 pm »

Quote from: Kaytrim on January 11, 2007, 01:40:54 pm

You should have no problems because they are all USB devices. If I was doing it all over again and had the money I would use two u360 joys, KeyWiz, LEDwiz, and OptiWiz. For now I will be saving my money so I can get the U360 joys.

Would you ever use the second u360 as anything other than an 8-way?

This has been the stopper for me. I really want one, but I can't justify spending close to $100 for effectively an 8-way just so they match. But not matching is out of the question too.

Hmmm... maybe a u360 for player 1 and a p360 for player 2?

rockin_rick · « **Reply #8 on:** January 11, 2007, 03:05:29 pm »

Quote from: Chris on January 11, 2007, 01:47:40 pm

Would you ever use the second u360 as anything other than an 8-way?

There are a few 4way, 2P simultain. games such as buster bros, columns, hat trick, klax, lode runner, logic pro, mad donna, palamedes, wizard of wor.

Perhaps 2 player with both in 2 way mode like mario bros, joust, bubble bobble, space inv 2, but I suppose that an 8 way would be ok for that...

@fixedpigs - I don't think you initially understood the difference between the p360 and u360 (perhaps you do now)... but the p360 is simply just an 8way joystick with optical switches instead of micro or leaf switches. The u360 is a completely different animal. It is an analog joystick with a microprocessor that converts the analog readings into directions. The conversion from analog to directions is completely adjustable and configurable so that you can make the stick only send 4 way info, or you can change it to only send 8 way info, or rotated 4 way (for qbert), or it can act as a full analog stick. It is possible for your front end (some) to send a command to the u360 to change the mode depending on the game launched for auto switching. So it's more than just a USB interface...

Rick

Kaytrim · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2007, 04:13:51 pm »

Quote from: Chris on January 11, 2007, 01:47:40 pm

Would you ever use the second u360 as anything other than an 8-way?

I want a good joystick for player two because we play a lot of the fighter games. As long as both of the player one and player two joys are identical there will be no 'favorite' player side fights based on the hardware. I see that now because I have one of my T-Sticks under mounted and one is top mounted.

miles2912 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2007, 04:49:35 pm »

The Happs P360s 8 way is great. 2 way is not a problem in 8 way mode and the q-bert diags were solved by remapping in mame. Now the 4-way in 8-way mode has been a problem some times. It works good for the most part but some times I have missed the tru direction and hit a diag however I don't play that many 4 way games - never have been a big pac man fan. - and my cab has a dedicated 4-way. Changing the joystick from 8-4 way is too much of a pain so it is going to stay in 8 way mode.

That being said the u360 sounds like a great joystick.. just not sure about the price.

Don

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2007, 06:56:31 pm »

I think the Ultimarc sticks are a pretty good buy. But there have been a few issues:

1. The configurability is awesome, and the software pretty easy to use if fiddly. Until presaved configs on a game-by-game or genre-by-genre basis is smoothly implemented they are a little inconvenient to use when a guest comes over to play. They'll say something like, "Let's play Joust" and so you have to stop to run the config to load the 2-ways. Then they'll want to play a fighter, so you'll have to reload an Analog or 8-way. The average person never thought of games having different types of sticks. When they played a game the controls worked. That is the experience I want to deliver for my guests. Until then we put up with the fiddly switching.

But this level of improvement will happen eventually courtesy of many wonderful brains in our community who like the potential of this product. Meanwhile you get less of a Frankenpanel by having a device that can simulate several different devices quite well. If you can put up with what will undoubtedly grow to be an astoundingly well implemented piece of hardware eventually while you enjoy something that's pretty darn cool today--go for it!

2. They are a little pricey, especially considering the most popular add ons--that really should be available as standard--a slightly stiffer spring and a circular limiter plate really ding you for a higher premium. Standard they're a little spongy with a long throw that feels--to me-- a little off. On the other hand you can argue how cool it is you can figure these in several different "feels" with choices in ball or bat top, shorter or longer shaft, springs and limiting plates.

3. They have not been bug free for me. On startup they --at least 60% of the time-- are not working. They show up as yellow exclamation warnings in Devices Manager within XP. This requires 1. either plugging/unplugging, which is inconvenient since my tower is in a cabinet, or 2. choosing the devices in the list, clicking "uninstall" and then restarting the computer. I just want them to recognize flawlessly on every startup. (And no, the conflict fixit Ultimarc provides for Ipac doesn't work for the Ultrastiks--or at least not on my system.)

4. The tops tend to come loose very easy with how they ship stock. This requires disassembling to play with the screw under the shaft, or in my case, just adding a 6mm lock washer. Not a big inconvenience--just a trip to the hardware store-- but is a detail they should mind better given the price.

But Andy is a great member of our hobby and community, so for the detractions to perfection I perceive these Stiks have, I think they will improve and are pretty sweet given the alternatives.

fatfingers · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2007, 07:15:00 pm »

Quote from: QuixoteQuest on January 11, 2007, 06:56:31 pm

I think the Ultimarc sticks are a pretty good buy. But there have been a few issues:

1. The configurability is awesome, and the software pretty easy to use if fiddly. Until presaved configs on a game-by-game or genre-by-genre basis is smoothly implemented they are a little inconvenient to use when a guest comes over to play. They'll say something like, "Let's play Joust" and so you have to stop to run the config to load the 2-ways. Then they'll want to play a fighter, so you'll have to reload an Analog or 8-way. The average person never thought of games having different types of sticks. When they played a game the controls worked. That is the experience I want to deliver for my guests. Until then we put up with the fiddly switching.

I just felt I should note that in MaLa this all happens automagically with MaLa's ultrastik mapper plugin.

fixedpigs · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2007, 08:06:20 pm »

Quote from: rockin_rick on January 11, 2007, 03:05:29 pm

@fixedpigs - I don't think you initially understood the difference between the p360 and u360 (perhaps you do now)... but the p360 is simply just an 8way joystick with optical switches instead of micro or leaf switches. The u360 is a completely different animal. It is an analog joystick with a microprocessor that converts the analog readings into directions. The conversion from analog to directions is completely adjustable and configurable so that you can make the stick only send 4 way info, or you can change it to only send 8 way info, or rotated 4 way (for qbert), or it can act as a full analog stick. It is possible for your front end (some) to send a command to the u360 to change the mode depending on the game launched for auto switching. So it's more than just a USB interface...

Rick

you are indeed correct...i didn't...

this thread has been a wealth of knowledge...i appreciate it...

it was my first impression that they were both just optical sticks...but now see that the ultimarc is so much more...

does anyone know if retroblast has reviews of the u360...?

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2007, 08:11:57 pm »

Yep, Retroblast had a review last September. It's what convinced me to put them in my CP, any little ticks to performance notwithstanding.

http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/Ultimarc_Ultrastick_0925006-01.html

destructor · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2007, 02:48:56 am »

Quote from: QuixoteQuest on January 11, 2007, 06:56:31 pm

3. They have not been bug free for me. On startup they --at least 60% of the time-- are not working. They show up as yellow exclamation warnings in Devices Manager within XP. This requires 1. either plugging/unplugging, which is inconvenient since my tower is in a cabinet, or 2. choosing the devices in the list, clicking "uninstall" and then restarting the computer. I just want them to recognize flawlessly on every startup. (And no, the conflict fixit Ultimarc provides for Ipac doesn't work for the Ultrastiks--or at least not on my system.)

Too low USB power from your motherboard. On BYOAC forum is my solution for it - work for others too. But if you have weak motherboard it can be wrong solution.

AndyWarne · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2007, 01:28:57 pm »

Quote from: QuixoteQuest on January 11, 2007, 06:56:31 pm

. On startup they --at least 60% of the time-- are not working. They show up as yellow exclamation warnings in Devices Manager within XP. This requires 1. either plugging/unplugging, which is inconvenient since my tower is in a cabinet, or 2. choosing the devices in the list, clicking "uninstall" and then restarting the computer. I just want them to recognize flawlessly on every startup.

Can you email me about this issue and I will research it. I might need to duplicate your setup. If I can reproduce it I can fix it.
Good idea about the lockwasher, I will implement this. Actually a dab of epoxy on the threads is another good method.
andy@ultimarc.com

rockin_rick · « **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:44:28 pm »

Quote from: destructor on January 12, 2007, 02:48:56 am

Quote from: QuixoteQuest on January 11, 2007, 06:56:31 pm
3. They have not been bug free for me. On startup they --at least 60% of the time-- are not working. They show up as yellow exclamation warnings in Devices Manager within XP. This requires 1. either plugging/unplugging, which is inconvenient since my tower is in a cabinet, or 2. choosing the devices in the list, clicking "uninstall" and then restarting the computer. I just want them to recognize flawlessly on every startup. (And no, the conflict fixit Ultimarc provides for Ipac doesn't work for the Ultrastiks--or at least not on my system.)
Too low USB power from your motherboard. On BYOAC forum is my solution for it - work for others too. But if you have weak motherboard it can be wrong solution.

Hi,

Could you link to your solution (or what should I search for?) This (USB connectivity issues) is the only thing making me apprehensive about the u360's. Should I expect to have occasional issues, or should they not give me ANY problems (assuming I've got everything setup right)?

Rick

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2007, 12:38:23 am »

Quote from: destructor on January 12, 2007, 02:48:56 am

Quote from: QuixoteQuest on January 11, 2007, 06:56:31 pm
3. They have not been bug free for me. On startup they --at least 60% of the time-- are not working. They show up as yellow exclamation warnings in Devices Manager within XP. This requires 1. either plugging/unplugging, which is inconvenient since my tower is in a cabinet, or 2. choosing the devices in the list, clicking "uninstall" and then restarting the computer. I just want them to recognize flawlessly on every startup. (And no, the conflict fixit Ultimarc provides for Ipac doesn't work for the Ultrastiks--or at least not on my system.)
Too low USB power from your motherboard. On BYOAC forum is my solution for it - work for others too. But if you have weak motherboard it can be wrong solution.

Yes, would enjoy reading about your solution. HP claims that my board has enough power to support all 6 main USB ports but not necessarily if any is driving a hub--which it isn't. Right now my USB ports are occupied with 1. Happs 3" trackball; 2. Tornado spinner; 3. I-Pac2; 4. UltraStik 1; 5. Ultrastik 2. The keyboard and mous are going thru the dedicated PS-2 ports.

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2007, 01:07:43 am »

Quote from: AndyWarne on January 12, 2007, 01:28:57 pm

Quote from: QuixoteQuest on January 11, 2007, 06:56:31 pm
. On startup they --at least 60% of the time-- are not working. They show up as yellow exclamation warnings in Devices Manager within XP. This requires 1. either plugging/unplugging, which is inconvenient since my tower is in a cabinet, or 2. choosing the devices in the list, clicking "uninstall" and then restarting the computer. I just want them to recognize flawlessly on every startup.
Can you email me about this issue and I will research it. I might need to duplicate your setup. If I can reproduce it I can fix it.
Good idea about the lockwasher, I will implement this. Actually a dab of epoxy on the threads is another good method.
andy@ultimarc.com

Email sent. Thanks for the offer to help, Andy.

destructor · « **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2007, 02:43:34 am »

Topic is there:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=57560.0
Solution at end of this post:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=57560.msg579453#msg579453
--> Change USB jumpers on motherboard from 5V to 5VSB position.

I think U360 require more USB power than other USB devices.

Read Ultimarc Board topic where TimePilot used the same solution:
Click

AndyWarne · « **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2007, 06:21:41 am »

This is not a proper solution though. All this does is keep the power running to the USB port at all times so the device never gets powered down.
I need to get hold of a PC configuration which shows this problem so that I can fix it. Also need to know what firmware version people are running.
I would be grateful if anyone who has seen this problem can email me with their system config and firmware version in the stick. The version can be found by using the information at the foot of the page: http://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_inst.html

destructor · « **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2007, 06:53:42 am »

Quote from: AndyWarne on January 13, 2007, 06:21:41 am

This is not a proper solution though.

But works. I tried different options and this is only one solution which give new life to my U360

Kaytrim · « **Reply #23 on:** January 13, 2007, 10:31:03 am »

Would someone please send Andy the information he is requesting. I want to purchase 2 of these sticks but would like for him to get the bugs worked out first.

Thank You,
Kaytrim

fatfingers · « **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2007, 01:47:05 pm »

Quote from: Kaytrim on January 13, 2007, 10:31:03 am

Would someone please send Andy the information he is requesting. I want to purchase 2 of these sticks but would like for him to get the bugs worked out first.

Thank You,
Kaytrim

I don't believe that this should hold you back. Not everyone is having this problem.

rockin_rick · « **Reply #25 on:** January 14, 2007, 12:47:36 pm »

Quote from: destructor on January 13, 2007, 02:43:34 am

Read Ultimarc Board topic where TimePilot used the same solution:
Click

After looking at this topic I realized that both of you have VIA chipset based mobos (that also are only USB v1.x ?). Perhaps using the u360's with v1.x USB is causing some of the issues?

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but reading the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB on USB says that VIA and Intel use different USB host controller devices for low speed USB than everyone else. They use UHCI while everyone else uses OHCI (interestingly, VIA and intel's UHCI are more software-driven than OHCI is and and is thus more processor intensive). Perhaps this is causing some incompatibility or conflict?? Perhaps the u360 works fine with OHCI but doesn't like UHCI (or just is barely incompatible so it sometimes gives problems)?

Another idea not necessarily reated to the chipset...

Perhaps the U360 needs to be connected to it's own root hub/controller???

I don't know if this is the case....

Perhaps the U360 draws more power than the USB spec? Initially, a device is only allowed to draw 100mA, but can request more and then draw up to 500mA. Perhaps the u360 draws more than 100mA right off the bat without waiting for the request, but doesn't draw over the 500mA. The wiki says "In practice, most ports will deliver the full 500 mA or more before shutting down power, even if the device hasn't requested it or even identified itself." Maybe some mobos can handle the initial 'overdraw' (over 100mA), but others are more strict and require that the device request it...

Andy, could you confirm any of this?

I'm looking forward to getting a couple of these - perhaps if some of these things are an issue, I can be sure to get a mobo/chipset that avoids the problems.

Rick

destructor · « **Reply #26 on:** January 14, 2007, 01:01:17 pm »

I have USB2.0 on my mobo (VIA). I must install driver for USB2.0. In Device Manager it's displayed as "VIA USB2.0 Enhanced Host Controller".

rockin_rick · « **Reply #27 on:** January 14, 2007, 01:05:38 pm »

Oops, my bad. The link on ASUS's website was bad so I couldn't confirm and had to guess. So maybe it isn't a USB v1.x issue...

Rick

destructor · « **Reply #28 on:** January 14, 2007, 02:11:25 pm »

I notice that in my notebook I have USB 1.x and I don't have any problems with U360 on it. Exception was when I upgrade firmware to 1.9? with mouse support?. U360 was not recognized. I downgraded formaware to 1.7 and all is OK.
Firmware 1.9 (with mouse support) is wrong because stick randomly send signals to buttons. I write about it on BYOAC in Andy topic about this firmware.

Kaytrim · « **Reply #29 on:** January 14, 2007, 04:28:30 pm »

Quote from: fatfingers on January 13, 2007, 01:47:05 pm

Quote from: Kaytrim on January 13, 2007, 10:31:03 am
Would someone please send Andy the information he is requesting. I want to purchase 2 of these sticks but would like for him to get the bugs worked out first.

Thank You,
Kaytrim

I don't believe that this should hold you back. Not everyone is having this problem.

I am also suffering from a lack of funds to purchase the two that I want. Time should give me the funds and time should help Andy get this little bug fixed. I am really displeased with the 8 way play of the T-Stick Plus joysticks that I have but they are fine for now. The U360 should give me the playability and flexibility I am looking for in a joystick.

Santoro · « **Reply #30 on:** September 03, 2007, 12:26:47 am »

Anyone know if this USB issue was ever resolved? I am gearing up to build another cabinet....

crashwg · « **Reply #31 on:** September 03, 2007, 02:28:53 am »

So after reading this thread I'm extremely interested in the u360s and hopefully will get a pair some day. This does create a small problem for me though...

I have two stainless steel pear top handles from slickstick for a P360. I suppose it would be a pretty long shot, but are the sticks compatible? Are they even close? I have access to a machine shop if making things smaller or adding clip grooves would remedy them not fitting.

Anyone who has one and some calipers, could you please snap a pic and add the dimensions to it so I can check my sticks? Or Andy, you developed these things right? You must have some dimensions.

destructor · « **Reply #32 on:** September 03, 2007, 09:37:29 am »

Slickstick stainless steels are not compatible with U360.

beernut · « **Reply #33 on:** September 03, 2007, 12:02:22 pm »

Someone should really do a complete review of a Midway 49way (with the gpwiz49 interface) vs the U360's. That would be more interesting and on a more level playing field (since the U360's are basically 81ways).

I am going to be using 49way's in my cabinet mostly because I have the parts to make them rotary as well. If the U360 could either be modded to add rotary functionality or top fire functionality then that would perhaps push me to change plans.

Mark Alston

If someone has already done this suggested review then please excuse the interuption.

ARTIFACT · « **Reply #34 on:** September 03, 2007, 03:18:21 pm »

i loooooove my 2 U360s...

i also have an ipac for all the buttons (already had that so i didnt get the button harness option on the U360s)

the auto-switchcing s absolutely mindboggling... PERFECT in all modes... it handles anything

i even love it withOUT any restrictor and with the STANDARD SPRING... yep. i bought all the options but am returning them.

it's so smoooth, i can play for hours without fatigue (compared with regular sticks)

go U360! brilliant

destructor · « **Reply #35 on:** September 04, 2007, 02:48:53 am »

Quote from: beernut on September 03, 2007, 12:02:22 pm

Someone should really do a complete review of a Midway 49way (with the gpwiz49 interface) vs the U360's. That would be more interesting and on a more level playing field (since the U360's are basically 81ways).

I am going to be using 49way's in my cabinet mostly because I have the parts to make them rotary as well. If the U360 could either be modded to add rotary functionality or top fire functionality then that would perhaps push me to change plans.

Mark Alston

If someone has already done this suggested review then please excuse the interuption.

You can have problem with add rotary tool or topfire to U360.


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