Gorrila Glue = No Bolts for joys

[acevedor2]

I have read many posts of people using Gorilla Glue to repair stuff or as EXTRA protection for holding, my question is, has anyon etried just using Gorilla Glue to hold the Joys in/down instead of usin carriage bolts or screws. 

Hving used the stuff, it would generally break whatever it is held to before it would come loose.  Rather than worry about a bunch of carriage bolts, I was thinking about just using Gorilla glue to hold th joys.  Thoughts?

[SirPeale]

Sure!  It'll work...for a little while.  A very little while.  You've got to remember that joysticks are constantly vibrating and moving.  Glue doesn't like that.  Little by little it *will* crack and break down, then one day when you're attempting a cool finishing move your joystick will suddenly just pop down inside your control panel.

[acevedor2]

Have you tried it?  I had the same thought...initially, but this isn't Elmer's, it's Gorilla Glue.  And having used it before I find it very hard to think of it just failing.  Again, I am skeptical myself which is why I would love to hear from anyone who might have tried it.  Thanks and have a great day.

[saint]

What happens when your joystick needs repair, cleaning, or replacement?  I'd never permanently mount anything in an arcade cabinet.

[acevedor2]

Saint,
   Then would you ever recommend flush mounting the joys with the CPO on top of the Carriage bolts (i.e. the "clean" look)?  I ask because it's the same scenario.  With the bolts through the CP, you can easily change out the joys.  Without the bolts, it looks better, but you would ruin the CPO if you ever had to change them.  Not to mention the fact that many people end up using wood filler around their joys to ensure they are flush prior to putting the CPO on.

I am very interested in your thoughts because my intention right now is to route and flush mount the joys and then put the CPO and Lexan on so that no bolts show.  This will make it very hard, however, to ever reomove the joys if there are problems with the joys.   

[superbovine]

I would wager it would work fine if you prepped it well...... my front door deveoped a split from hurricane damage that eventually separated the door into two vertical pieces (2x7 and 1x7).  Gorilla glued it back together and its been fine for years..... with two door-slamming children.
Just make sure you have it where you want it

[Hoopz]

Saint,
   Then would you ever recommend flush mounting the joys with the CPO on top of the Carriage bolts (i.e. the "clean" look)?  I ask because it's the same scenario.  With the bolts through the CP, you can easily change out the joys.  Without the bolts, it looks better, but you would ruin the CPO if you ever had to change them.  Not to mention the fact that many people end up using wood filler around their joys to ensure they are flush prior to putting the CPO on.

I am very interested in your thoughts because my intention right now is to route and flush mount the joys and then put the CPO and Lexan on so that no bolts show.  This will make it very hard, however, to ever reomove the joys if there are problems with the joys.   

That's not exactly true.  You would have trouble removing the bolts without removing the CPO but could remove the joys.  I used machine screws that were longer than what was needed.   That way, I could remove the bolt by holding on to the screw with a pair of pliers.  The screws don't move but I can remove the joys whenever I want.  Obviously, if I want to move the joys from one place to another, I can't do that without taking off the CPO etc.

[pointdablame]

When I flush mount joysticks, I sacrifice the joystick base, unless its a rare or more expensive joystick with a unique base.

If its a comp or super or similar...I'll just mount it knowing it'll be difficult to remove the base.  You can take out ever other piece of the joystick however, and just replace it if you ever need to.

that's my .02 anyway.  I don't worry much about the base of a $10 joystick. 

[FrizzleFried]

If you are using a wood CP...simply route out about 1/4" of the wood in the shape of your joystick base.  Drill your carriage bolt holes...but on the front side,  drill down about 1/8" at the same width as the head of your carriage bolt.  Insert bolts with the heads slipping down in to the slightly larger drilled part.   Install the CPO over the panel...over the countersunk carriage bolts...

Now you have 4 bolts coming out of the bottom of the CP...which you can install a joystick to and change it out as necessary.

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would even consider using a Gorilla Glue.   The method described above works perfectly...and has worked perfectly for many years.

[SirPeale]

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would even consider using a Gorilla Glue.   The method described above works perfectly...and has worked perfectly for many years.

As opposed to dog years. 

What I've done is route out a block on top of the CP for a plate of plexi to set down into it.  Route another circular piece for the dust washer.  Where the bolts go a small indentation for T nuts.  That way you can bolt from the underside, you never see the bolts, ever. 

[leapinlew]

I screwed mine in from the botton on my last arcade. No problems in it's short life. Before I did this, I flush mounted my carriage bolts. I liked this method and would do it again.

[acevedor2]

Lew - what did you do - countersink the carriage bolts from the top and then recess the joy base in the bottom?  That is kind of the method I am looking at now.  For the Trigger joy it has to be top mounted, I see no other way.  This means that I will have to route the recess for the trigger joy about 1/8" deeper so the heads of the carriage bolts don't stick up.  The problem with that, is as I said before, then you have a gap between the plate of the trigger joy and the CPO.  No adhesion there...The Trigger joy base is fairly big.

As far as to the answer of "Why would anyone use Gorilla Glue."  The answer is simple - if it works, it will be FAR easier than any other method mentioned.  Again, I am not saying it will work, though I am likely to try it just to test it.  I understand the old tried and true method of bolts and recesses works great.  I got that.  However would it not be easier to not have to countersink any bolts, or T nut recesses, etc.  You simple route the recess for the joy in the bottom and glue it up. 

I certainly appreciate all of the input.  Cheers.

[Ken Layton]

What happens when your joystick needs repair, cleaning, or replacement?  I'd never permanently mount anything in an arcade cabinet.

EXACTLY!

Us professionals would never even consider glue.

[Flip_Willie]

    I really don't understand what is wrong with bolts.  They really don't look that bad.  And so far, I have never even noticed them during gameplay on my arcade.


Just as it is,
Flip Willie

[leapinlew]

Lew - what did you do - countersink the carriage bolts from the top and then recess the joy base in the bottom?  That is kind of the method I am looking at now.  For the Trigger joy it has to be top mounted, I see no other way.  This means that I will have to route the recess for the trigger joy about 1/8" deeper so the heads of the carriage bolts don't stick up.  The problem with that, is as I said before, then you have a gap between the plate of the trigger joy and the CPO.  No adhesion there...The Trigger joy base is fairly big.

I countersunk from the top, but I didn't mess with recessing the bottom. Some people do it so they can have the joystick stick up another 1/4", but it doesn't bother me.

For the joysticks I mounted from the bottom - I just used some drywall screws and screwed them to the CP from the bottom. Works fine - I'd do it again.

[leapinlew]

    I really don't understand what is wrong with bolts.  They really don't look that bad.  And so far, I have never even noticed them during gameplay on my arcade.


Just as it is,
Flip Willie

Your right - it doesn't look bad. But... It's a little more hassle drilling through plexi to mount them. Not much hassle, but enough that I avoided it. Once installed, I preferred the look of no carriage bolts.

[DrewKaree]

You could epoxy the bolts into the top to keep everything smooth under your CPO, but if you ever want to change the joystick and the bolt holes don't match up.....   I suppose you'd end up having to use some sort of filler to patch the old holes, so perhaps you'd want to make a new CP anyway (use a flush trim bit in your router for a quick and easy copy).

Easier to countersink the top of your CP, apply your CPO, then trim out the countersunk area if you want a smooth finish....I guess I haven't really read this well enough to figure out why permanently attaching a joystick might be considered preferable (ease of installation isn't a good reason to do this).

Meh

[rdowdy95]

I am going to be going with bolts from the top, and they will be showing.  Lots of Arcade machines had the look with bolts actually showing.  They will hold up better as well.

[DrewKaree]

Now you have 4 bolts coming out of the bottom of the CP...which you can install a joystick to and change it out as necessary.

I figured I'd take a bit of time and re-read this thread to try to figure out what's going on specifically, and noticed this bit.

The mounting holes are NOT all the same, so you'd be able to change out a joystick with an IDENTICAL one, but not necessarily ANY one.

Also, rather than using carriage bolts, you can get tapered-head machine screws that will fit better and require less filling (if someone decides to fill in the excess) than a carriage bolt - I see the term "carriage bolt", and I always envision a hex-head bolt/screw.

[DrewKaree]

What I envision a carriage bolt to be:



or this:




The piece I'm suggesting:



Alternatively, using FF's method, you could get a better fit using something like these:



Any and all of these should be available at your local hardware store.

[acevedor2]

Thanks to all the for all of the advice.  A couple of notes and comments:

The reason I was considering using Gorilla Glue was so that there would not be any tapering or countersinking bolt holes.  Additionally, the chances of my CPO not sticking due   Yes, I do realize that to some it is not that big of a deal.  I, however, am brand new at the woodworking thing so anything that prevents me from screwing up the better. I, as a novice at this, was just looking for other options.  This board has so many experts that have been doing this for years that I really do value everyone's opinion.  

The other comment I find kind of ironic is that many people have said that the "professionals" would never permanently mount a joystick.  What I find ironic about that is that those same people have no problem with countersinking bolt holes and putting a CPO and plexi over them.  Some have even used wood filler over the joys to ensure they are flush.  I will give you that it is not absolutely mounted forever in that case, but I would argue that it is probably as much effort to scribe out the sides of the joy that are glued in to loosen and get it out in what I was suggesting,  than it would be to remove the buttons so you could remove the lexan so that you could remove/ruin the CPO, so you could remove the carriage bolts, so you could replace the joy in the other widely acceptable method.  Seems pretty darned "permanent" to me in either case - glued or bolted flush.

I am really now leaning towards Dowdy and leaving my bolt holes exposed - for a variety of reasons:

1.  Almost every arcade I have ever visited has bolt heads showing.
2.  I have a 7 year old who has friends that will be playing this cab and the need to replace joys will likely arise.
3.  It simplifies a number of things for installation including the fact that it would take care of the Lexan staying down issue.

I wanted to say thanks again for all of the thoughts and advice.  It really is invaluable information.  Cheers  

[Hoopz]

My suggestion is to try it on a scrap piece of wood and see if you can drill four holes, mount a joy, and then remove it without stopping the head of the screw/bolt from moving.

I have never had to take any of my CPOs off but I have removed and replaced joys.  It's really not hard at all to do.

And countersinking the screws/bolts isn't hard either.  Its an extra bit to buy that isn't expensive and you can practice for about 3 minutes and be an expert!  If I can, so can you! 

Regarding the lexan staying down, I have had a couple of CPs with lexan and one without.  Even with having three young children beating the crap out of them, I much prefer the style without.  Regardless, for the ones I had with lexan, my buttons held down the lexan without any other bolts.  I never had the kids trying to lift the lexan up or any movement whatsoever. YMMV. 

[patrickl]

The other comment I find kind of ironic is that many people have said that the "professionals" would never permanently mount a joystick.  What I find ironic about that is that those same people have no problem with countersinking bolt holes and putting a CPO and plexi over them.  Some have even used wood filler over the joys to ensure they are flush.  I will give you that it is not absolutely mounted forever in that case, but I would argue that it is probably as much effort to scribe out the sides of the joy that are glued in to loosen and get it out in what I was suggesting,  than it would be to remove the buttons so you could remove the lexan so that you could remove/ruin the CPO, so you could remove the carriage bolts, so you could replace the joy in the other widely acceptable method.  Seems pretty darned "permanent" to me in either case - glued or bolted flush.

People using wood filler would probably be using t-nuts. These are mounted on the top, countersunk and woodfilled and all. You then screw the bolts for the sticks in from underneath. Replacable and no screws visible.

[Ken Layton]

Thanks to all the for all of the advice.  A couple of notes and comments:

The other comment I find kind of ironic is that many people have said that the "professionals" would never permanently mount a joystick.  What I find ironic about that is that those same people have no problem with countersinking bolt holes and putting a CPO and plexi over them.  Some have even used wood filler over the joys to ensure they are flush.  I will give you that it is not absolutely mounted forever in that case, but I would argue that it is probably as much effort to scribe out the sides of the joy that are glued in to loosen and get it out in what I was suggesting,  than it would be to remove the buttons so you could remove the lexan so that you could remove/ruin the CPO, so you could remove the carriage bolts, so you could replace the joy in the other widely acceptable method.  Seems pretty darned "permanent" to me in either case - glued or bolted flush.

I have literally built hundreds of control panels (metal and wood) over the years and I only use carriage bolts through the panel. Never would I even consider the other methods you mention. I have seem some 'professionals' that do that crap and their panels end up looking like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

[acevedor2]

Great discussion here and I think I am convinced.  Although I know I will probably catch crap for this, I actually think that I am going to do it with bolts showing down through the top of the Lexan.  It is not as smooth and seemless but I think it will ultimately be easier and provide more flexibility or me with respect to joy repair/replacement down the road. 
I think that after I have built a few of these, I will feel more confident using othr methods.  Cheers.

[deadkenndys1105]

I have my screw on the under side of my CP so there not showing at all.  You have to use some kinda of short and really wide screw though.  I used the screws for mounting a PC fan because there very wide and really short.  They have came loose one or twice but thats because I forgot to put the washer there.  Honestly if you do it right you can literately hit the joystick with a hammer for the side and the joystick will brake before the screws rip out.  You should see some people play pacman on the thing and I start yelling.

[danny_galaga]

People using wood filler would probably be using t-nuts. These are mounted on the top, countersunk and woodfilled and all. You then screw the bolts for the sticks in from underneath. Replacable and no screws visible.

my thoughts too. if i wanted the bolts to be hidden, the first thing that comes to mind is t nuts

[Turnarcades]

I'm in England and I use Suzo joysticks for all of my control panels. Because of their design they are meant for metal control panels, as they have a 'flared' base on the shaft of the joystick and require fairly close mounting to the surface of the panel.

However, as these joysticks (with a short lever throw) were found on loads of generic cabinets due to how hard-wearing they are, I love to use them as they feel great to use. Counter-sinking the bolt holes as you would any screw holes works just as well on the joysticks, and can be filled if this is what you prefer. If you have a perspex (plexi-glass, if you prefer!) control panel they can still be sunk into the wood before applying the top plastic, though you wont get the extra 'pinning' force around the base of your joystick on the perspex, so it may lift a little if not secured down properly.

Personally, I don't use perspex covers or carriage bolts at all, I use paint-finished control panels, routed out underneath to sit the joystick base into, then counter-sunk holes with screw-headed bolts to get the tightest fit possible, before filling the surface with a flexible wood filler.

The flexible wood filler sands down flat and can be painted over, but is still soft enough under the surface to be 'dug-out' if the bolts ever need to be removed.

[Chris]

than it would be to remove the buttons so you could remove the lexan so that you could remove/ruin the CPO, so you could remove the carriage bolts, so you could replace the joy in the other widely acceptable method.

Why would you do all this as opposed to, say, just taking the nuts off the bottom of the bolts and sliding the joystick off?

[acevedor2]

Not possible if you recess the joys and mount from the top.

[More Cowbell]

I have my screw on the under side of my CP so there not showing at all. 

This is what I did as well. I've had my cab done for over a year and never a problem (even with two insane boys cranking away at it, well three if you count me). If I ever did have a problem I would probably just replace the screws with carriage bolts that show, it doesn't bother me.

[Chris]

Not possible if you recess the joys and mount from the top.

Then whatever method you use, glue, nuts, bolts, or chewing gum, you have to remove the buttons and CPO to lift the joystick out anyway.

[somunny]

People using wood filler would probably be using t-nuts. These are mounted on the top, countersunk and woodfilled and all. You then screw the bolts for the sticks in from underneath. Replacable and no screws visible.

My opinion/experience; Installing the t-nuts in the top of the panel and the joysticks on the underside of the panel is an excellent method as the tension on the screws pulls the t-nuts into the wood.  If you use a lock washer on the screws, the joysticks will never come loose.

This is how I did the panel on my mini cabinet for the kids.  It gets a ton of use and the sticks are still rock-solid.

[rdowdy95]

Good questions and good answers.  I think good ole Ken Layton has some good info.  He has done it and seen it all.    You can use carriage bolts and expose them, or you can countersink them flush.  I have a good countersink bit, or you could just use a big drill bit wide enough to countersink the head of the bolt then use lexan on top. 

I am not doing lexan because I am lazy and I am not really going for that kind of look.  Carriage bolts going in from the top to the bottom with a nice plain jane wood control panel is what I am going for.

Currently in the design stages.

[RandyT]

Everyone will have a differing view on this topic.

Mine is:  If you can see the bolt heads used for mounting a standard joystick, and your panel isn't made out of metal, you've needlessly sacrificed aesthetics for durability.

There are a number of ways to provide nearly as much durability (several times what is necessary for a home unit) without trashing the look of that fancy overlay you spent so much time and money on.  T-Nuts from the top and Threaded Inserts from below are a couple of good options.

I can understand if your panel is just plain black melamine or shelf paper and you just want the easiest / fastest way to "git er dun", but hearing that carriage bolts are the best way to mount sticks makes me cringe.

But that's just my opinion

RandyT

[acevedor2]

One question would be how do you recess the holes for the T-nuts.  Which bit and what jig.  Or would you just try and free hand.  I guess I am just a little daunted by the fact that I will be trying to route a recess about 1/2 wide and about 1/16 of an inch deep so the t-nuts fit flush.  Does anyone have a good jig setup idea for for this?

I do have the threaded nuts that I can use from below for the other joys, but I have to mount the trigger joy from the top, unless someone knows another way.  The base for the trigger joy is metal.  One of the things I have considered is chamfer the holes of the base plate so that they can accept a flat head machine screw.  Then when I recess the trigger joy flush and mount it, the screws will be flush as well.

Any ideas?  Thanks!

[acevedor2]

Ok, the more I think about it, the more I realize that you guyts are right (of course you already knew that as you have been doing this for much longer than me )

So I have decided  how I will mount the other three joys, recessed into the bottom with Pan Head Bolts countersunk up top.  What I can't/haven't figured out yet is how to mount the trigger joy.  It has a metal mounting plate up top, look slike 16 gauge or so.  Recessing the top of the CP for it to be top mounted (which is the only way it will go) is not a problem.  The problem is how to hide the bolts that will be used to secure it to the CP.

Any thoughts?

[More Cowbell]

Have you thought of trying Gorilla Glue? 

[acevedor2]

Yep - sure did

I was talked out of it (see above thread for details )

[More Cowbell]

  = joke