Spinner Suggestions

[twitami]

So Oscar spinners seem unavailable (for a while now), and I am ready to buy one (or two). What others are out that are good? And does anyone else make one with the Discs Of Tron up/down capability?

And one last question. Oscar I remember made these cool little steering wheels that used the guts of spinners. Anything like thta available anywhere now?

Thanks!

[quarterback]

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Spinners#Spinner_Brands

[BULL]

Andy at Ultimarc recently came out with his alternative, the SpinTrak.

http://69.73.188.100/~jultimar/SpinTrak.htm

I´ve just recived mine and haven´t had time to mount it yet, but it looks bithin´and the ability to ad one off two different flywheels and its high sesitivity realy sets it apart.
I´ve tested it and it works great, the only thing missing is push/pull but I can live without that.

BULL

[csa3d]

Andy at Ultimarc recently came out with his alternative, the SpinTrak.

http://69.73.188.100/~jultimar/SpinTrak.htm

I´ve just recived mine and haven´t had time to mount it yet, but it looks bithin´and the ability to ad one off two different flywheels and its high sesitivity realy sets it apart.

What is the mounting footprint on that thing?  Just curious as it's not posted on ultimarc.com under diagrams yet.

[apachecontrols]

You might want to consider the Apache Controls Blackhawk Push/Pull spinner.

Many satisfied customers have already purchased and are enjoying this excellent spinner.

There is no waiting on any product we sell ... Nothing is made to order, so when you make your purchase, we ship right away.

At Team Apache, we are confident in our products, and to prove it, we offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee as well on all that we sell.

Checkout the Retroblast! review for details...
  http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/apache-070106-01.html


   David

Apache Controls, LLC
Honeoye Falls, NY (USA)

ONLINE: www.apachecontrols.com
EMAIL: support@apachecontrols.com

[RobotronNut]

right now, you have your choice of:

low-res, push/pull (plays discs of tron, won't play arkanoid well):

        apache blackhawk

hi-res, non push/pull (plays arkanoid well, won't play discs of tron):

        ultimarc spintrak

the groovygamegear turbotwist is high-res, but apparently not quite high enough to play arkanoid perfectly. it might be a good choice if price is a constraint.

[Xiaou2]

 Actually,  you could most likely rig up a pedal unit to simulate the  up/down
D.O.T.   Aim Motion.    It may even play better than the Origianl this way.

 Other mods possible..   are to mount the spinner assemblies on a pivoting
base that activates switches.   

 ...Or, a little more difficult, to make the entire assembly slide up/down.

   

[shardian]

Anyone know what the spintrak is going to cost??

[RandyT]

the groovygamegear turbotwist is high-res, but apparently not quite high enough to play arkanoid perfectly.

Not true.  The TurboTwist is slightly higher resolution than Arkanoid, so it plays perfectly.

For the record, parts for the next version of the TurboTwist are being built as I type this.  I think it will be well received

RandyT

[RetroBorg]

For the record, parts for the next version of the TurboTwist are being built as I type this.  I think it will be well received

RandyT

Are you implying an up/down version?

[twitami]

Well, I actually tried to buy the Apache, but the website kept giving me unfound pages when I went to order

So, I ended up ordering 2 Slikstik Spinners, plus some new Joystick handles from them (1/4" higher means I dont have to rout out the space!), and more buttons..because I can't count.

[RandyT]

For the record, parts for the next version of the TurboTwist are being built as I type this.  I think it will be well received

Are you implying an up/down version?

Sorry, not this time around.

RandyT

[apachecontrols]

Hey guys,

If you have problems with our website, please let us know. This is the first time anyone has suggested there are issues with the website, as we continue to fulfill many customer orders each day.

If you experience any issues, please email us and we'd be happy to help work directly. support@apachecontrols.com

For the record (stated once more in case folks missed earlier threads), the Apache Blackhawk is great for all sorts of game play, including Arkanoid. If you are looking for an original game feel for Arkanoid (aka geared spinner) then your best bet is to make your own, since no-one makes an original Arkanoid. With that said, for ALL other games, the Apache Blackhawk is your best bet. This spinner is outstanding for all scenarios of game play.

This is all we do (spinner market) at the moment, so our energies are continuing to provide customers an outstanding product.

Try it, and you won't be disappointed, we guarantee it!

 

    David


Apache Controls, LLC
Honeoye Falls, NY (USA)

ONLINE: www.apachecontrols.com
EMAIL: support@apachecontrols.com

[RandyT]

looking for an original game feel for Arkanoid (aka geared spinner) then your best bet is to make your own, since no-one makes an original Arkanoid.  Don't let the resolution "teeth count" nay-sayers dissuade you with technical garb.

If one doesn't mind turning the control twice as far as the game intended one to, or that the paddle jumps in 2 or 3 pixel increments instead of having single-pixel precision, then that individual may not find resolution to be important.  But I'm guessing that most avid gamers (the ones who are spending $1000+ on an arcade rig) might feel differently, or they will once they have experienced the difference that proper resolution can make.  This goes not only for titles like Arkanoid, but the numerous potentiometer based titles as well.

And "for the record", HAPP controls sells a geared spinner for an original Arkanoid machine right here, if you really want one.  Just don't expect them to work well for general purposes with a PC due to the gearing.

And while we're on that subject;

The true Arkanoid spinner puts out the equivalent of a 486 aperture (tooth, spoke, etc.) count and utilized it at 1x.  180 positions for the paddle meant a range of motion of 120 degrees at the control to get it from one side of the playfield to the other.

With modern electronics, one can get 4x decoding (if not placed on the Z-axis of certain mouse controllers), rather than the 1x used by the original hardware.  That means that instead of the 486 aperture requirement, you now have a 486 / 4 or 121.5 (let's say 122 so there is no "loss.") 

An encoder with, say 50, apertures is woefully short of the 122 required to play Arkanoid properly, even with the advancement in decoding technology.  The same could also be said of the numerous potentiometer based games (perhaps more so.)  This is why resolution is important in a spinner and the reason the current TurboTwist spinner has an encoder wheel with 130 apertures (which delivers 520 raw "movements" per revolution with its Opti-Wiz based encoder.)

Just as with anything, there comes a time when you no longer get any returns for the extra resolution and it can even become a problem.  Once you have the bases covered, excessive resolution just makes the low end harder to adjust for.  When sensitivity is based on percentage in whole numbers, and you have a spinner that delivers 2000 movements per revolution and need to set it to, say 3.5% to match a particular games controls, you now have a problem.  Setting it to 3% gives you 60 movements per revolution and 4% gives you 80.  So what can you do to reach that magic 70 the game was designed to use?  Nothing.  You either have to use 3% and things move slower, or use 4% where movement is faster or, in some titles, increases the likelihood of issues like backspin.  This problem at the low end just gets worse, the higher you go beyond that.  Spinner resolution, especially as used with applications like MAME, isn't something you can just pick arbitrarily.  It has to be thought out and done "correctly" or problems can occur on both ends of the spectrum.

Everything in this hobby is "technical".  I hope the above illustrates how these "technicalities" can be important.

RandyT

[patrickl]

WTF, that apache that spinner costs $145 with a knob?!?!?!

[twitami]

Well, hopefully the Slikstik one is good, I bought two

I really wish Oscar still was around..those mini-steering wheels they had were so cool!

[RobotronNut]

the groovygamegear turbotwist is high-res, but apparently not quite high enough to play arkanoid perfectly.

Not true.  The TurboTwist is slightly higher resolution than Arkanoid, so it plays perfectly.

hmmm... it appears my information was incorrect. indeed, i looked at a photo of a turbotwist and counted 130 black lines, which would yield 520 clicks per revolution, which is just over arkanoid's 486.

my apologies to randyt.

For the record (stated once more in case folks missed earlier threads), the Apache Blackhawk is great for all sorts of game play, including Arkanoid. If you are looking for an original game feel for Arkanoid (aka geared spinner) then your best bet is to make your own, since no-one makes an original Arkanoid.

it's not the gritty feeling of gears we're looking for, but the clicks per revolution. if the blackhawk has 192 clicks per revolution, as has been reported,  then you'd have to rotate it 2.5 times the amount that you'd rotate an arkanoid spinner to achieve the same effect.

so, by my reckoning, the GGG spinner goes in the category of "plays everything perfectly except disks of tron" and the apache spinner goes in the category of "plays everything perfectly except arkanoid."

this is all w.r.t. true spinner games, not analog paddle games. i wonder which, if any, can play warlords perfectly...

[Xiaou2]

RobotronNut,

 I agree with what you said..  but I will add:

  Gears may in fact add to the control of the game character in Arkanoid.
As the friction may help to keep you from going past your intended position.

 Without gears, it may be slippery,  like walking on Ice.

 However, it might add to the control, in that its easier to start and stop
movments quicker...? 

 Very hard to say, untill someone directly compares the actual
2 together in an extensive  side by side comparison.

[RandyT]

this is all w.r.t. true spinner games, not analog paddle games. i wonder which, if any, can play warlords perfectly...

I couldn't stop playing it during testing....  Analog paddle games play great as well due to the extra resolution.  They just don't have a dead stop at the edges of the screen.

RandyT

[RobotronNut]

RobotronNut,

 I agree with what you said..  but I will add:

  Gears may in fact add to the control of the game character in Arkanoid.
As the friction may help to keep you from going past your intended position.

 Without gears, it may be slippery,  like walking on Ice.

 However, it might add to the control, in that its easier to start and stop
movments quicker...? 

 Very hard to say, untill someone directly compares the actual
2 together in an extensive  side by side comparison.

that would be a very interesting comparison.

i think the most important thing to be done in this regard is to minimize the rotating mass or make it optional, like the new ultimarc/slikstik spinner.

[RobotronNut]

this is all w.r.t. true spinner games, not analog paddle games. i wonder which, if any, can play warlords perfectly...

I couldn't stop playing it during testing....  Analog paddle games play great as well due to the extra resolution.  They just don't have a dead stop at the edges of the screen.

RandyT

i'm getting very tempted to upgrade from my slikstik tornado. the problem is that my 3 favorite spinner games are:

  1) discs of tron
  2) arkanoid
  3) warlords

and i only have space for ONE SPINNER on my panel!!!

[ahofle]

my 3 favorite spinner games are:

  1) discs of tron
  2) arkanoid
  3) warlords

Isn't it funny how it seems that our favorite games are always the ones that have no reasonably priced, readily available replacement arcade controls?   

(I'm a Tron fan) 

[erictrumpet]

Isn't it funny how it seems that our favorite games are always the ones that have no reasonably priced, readily available replacement arcade controls?

For me what it came down to is that I want to play DOT and I only want one spinner. The Apache does the push/pull, and it very well made so it works great on everything else.

As for Arkanoid, I explained in a different thread how I was able to push the MAME sensitivity settings high enough to get the bumper thingy to move across the screen with the right number of turns, according to what RandyT said the original game is like. 120 degrees = one screen width of movement (see this thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=57329.0 in Hardware Reviews for the exact numbers).

As for the geared-spinner feel, I personally don't care much about that. I guess the bottom line is that Arkanoid is not one of my all-time favorites, so feel and perfect turn-to-movement ratio just isn't that important. All I know is with my Apache (and also with my old Oscar V2, which has an even LOWER tooth count than Apache), I am able to play Arkanoid and it is fun. I am not building a repro Arkanoid cab anyway, I am buildign a do-it-all cab with Arkanoid as one of the 4 million games it can play. So, with the Apache I can play DOT, which IS one of all-time favorite games, as well as Arkanoid and all the rest.

Let's not forget the many other spinner games guys, like Tempest, for which the Apache kicks butt. Kevin's Retroblast review even specifically mentions this. I like to jump in on these threads in support of Apache because I really think they make a great spinner and I've been very happy with mine. Trust me guys, I know we all miss Kelsey and hope he is doing well in whatever he is up to these days, but Oscar Controls never made anything as nice as this

Eric.

[RandyT]

As for Arkanoid, I explained in a different thread how I was able to push the MAME sensitivity settings high enough to get the bumper thingy to move across the screen with the right number of turns, according to what RandyT said the original game is like. 120 degrees = one screen width of movement (see this thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=57329.0 in Hardware Reviews for the exact numbers).

As for the geared-spinner feel, I personally don't care much about that. I guess the bottom line is that Arkanoid is not one of my all-time favorites, so feel and perfect turn-to-movement ratio just isn't that important. All I know is with my Apache (and also with my old Oscar V2, which has an even LOWER tooth count than Apache), I am able to play Arkanoid and it is fun. I am not building a repro Arkanoid cab anyway, I am buildign a do-it-all cab with Arkanoid as one of the 4 million games it can play. So, with the Apache I can play DOT, which IS one of all-time favorite games, as well as Arkanoid and all the rest.

I'm Glad to hear that you are happy with your spinner.  If you are a big DOT fan, then you made the right choice.
 
However, saying that you can "play" Arkanoid "and everything else" with a low-res spinner control is very much like saying you can "play" PacMan with an 8-way stick.  Yes, technically it works, but it does not deliver the accuracy and is ultimately a hindrance when playing the game.  And it is not just Arkanoid, it is Warlords, Avalanche, Blasteroids, Circus, Cosmic Chasm,  Major Havoc, etc, etc.

 "Fit and finish" make a controller really nice to look at, but it doesn't help gameplay.  If you need to position a paddle in just the right place to make the ball go where you want it to, or aim a vector ship at just the right angle to take out an oncoming foe and you can't do it because your spinner won't let you, then it doesn't really allow you to play the game well.

Again, it's very much one of those things that need to be experienced to be appreciated.  There is very high probability that once you do, you won't want it any other way.

RandyT

[RobotronNut]

"Fit and finish" make a controller really nice to look at, but it doesn't help gameplay.  If you need to position a paddle in just the right place to make the ball go where you want it to, or aim a vector ship at just the right angle to take out an oncoming foe and you can't do it because your spinner won't let you, then it doesn't really allow you to play the game well.

hear! hear!  GAMEPLAY is what matters.  randyt "gets it." 

fit and finish: i love it and will pay for it IF the gameplay is perfect.

now PLEASE give me perfect arkanoid/warlords gameplay AND push/pull (and make the flywheel removable)! 

[RayB]

Randy, you're right. But when I go to your site, you're sold out of spinners. So..... 

[RandyT]

Randy, you're right. But when I go to your site, you're sold out of spinners. So..... 

So...what does that tell you?   

Seriously though.  The new machinist is on board and parts are being made.  The new design will be something quite different and I halted sales of the first one in preparation.  The first design is a really nice spinner that works very well.  The next one is kicking it up a notch and will be a design that most would probably think to be impossible.

RandyT

[fatfingers]

The next one is kicking it up a notch and will be a design that most would probably think to be impossible.

Is it a perpetual motion spinner?!?!?!   

[Kremmit]

The next one is kicking it up a notch and will be a design that most would probably think to be impossible.

Self powered; it spins itself!

[RetroBorg]

The next one is kicking it up a notch and will be a design that most would probably think to be impossible.

RandyT

I've worked it out! I was thinking the other day that having a spinner that lights up is impossible, so that must be it. A LED spinner that can be interfaced with Randy's LED-Wiz. Cool can't wait for the pics. Welll done Randy. 

[Dudeman]

Hooray!

Light up spinner! Just what I've been needing!

[Havok]

You've got it all wrong! It's a force feedback spinner, with optional electric shock attachments!

 

[erictrumpet]

Funny how you guys just got done saying how gameplay is the most important thing, but now that the idea of a light-up spinner comes up you are all excited. I can't think of anything LESS to do with gameplay than a silly blinky light in a spinner knob. Let's hope Randy's big thing is not that...

Eric.

[quarterback]

I'm hoping for a spinner that can be used for both Tempest and Arkanoid vis a vis a gearing system that can be engaged/disengaged

[RandyT]

Heh.  No lights or gears.

For now, we are just talking about capability, performance and form factor.

I've also made a discovery or two related to the Arkanoid vs Tempest dilemma that might end up being offered as options after the initial release. 

RandyT

[Zeppo]

I have been thinking about buying the Blackhawk push/pull lately and was wondering about the performance as well.

I have also been thining about building my own pupsh/pull spinner, but after reading the suggestion above about hooking the up/down to a pedal, I may go that route.

Then I also read about making a spinner out of an optical mouse as opposed to the normal ballmouse method I see that is so popular.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=53362.0

How would the performance of that be on slower games like Arkanoid?
Anyone know?

Thanks!

[Xiaou2]

 Zeppo,

  I personally would stay away from optical as they are a bit 'flighty'...
as well as harder to hack..

 Instead,  grab a Laser mouse.  These have AWESOMELY high resolution.

 The Logitech laser mouse I have can read a surface even
when raised  4mm  from it!      I do not believe opticals are
so good about that..  and they dont have anywhere near the
resolution of lasers.  Not as accurate tracking either...

 The laser is amazing.  It can track just as good on my desk as
my pant leg!

 I believe the cost are comming down for them..  and you
probably could get a used one off ebay for cheap when
people upgrade to the latest and greatest.

   

[Stingray]

Well, hopefully the Slikstik one is good, I bought two

It's a fantastic spinner. Dealing with Slickstick can be a pita sometimes though.

-S

[twitami]

Well, hopefully the Slikstik one is good, I bought two

It's a fantastic spinner. Dealing with Slickstick can be a pita sometimes though.

-S

I got an email today that they are out of the Spinner I ordered (color-wise), but have the 0-ring version. I said to go ahead and ship them. They were also out of the Joystick shafts I ordered (Blue bat handle), but have the Ball-top in stock....so I said to send them too

[FunWithFire]

It can track just as good on my desk as
my pant leg!

What websites are you going to exactly?