Have just built the perfect spinner...easy and cheap..very solid feel

[rollerball]

Ok Ive been playing around with building a spinner for a while as I just finish my first cab a few weeks ago...Ok here is my first try at a spinner form an optical mouse hack---   http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=50654.0

but now have got pics of my new one...it has a perfect spin...and the weight it has could not be better...VERY solid feel...and easy to make if you have the right tools and stuff lying around....its just a block of wood (TRY and make the block of wood the same width or a little bigger than the pipe you will use)...i started buy using a spade drill...just the right size to drill a hole big enough for the bearings I was using...(2 skateboard bearings)..went about 1/4 or so the way through so could put a bearing one on each side and use the little hole from the bottom of the drill to line up the other side...then dril a hole in the middle or that bigger than the bolt you are going to use...can use any bearings I guess as long as the bolt you use is a good fit though the bearing...or guess you could go a little bit smaller and tape it up to fit....sorry if this is a bit hard to follow....hope the pics help as well......ok well the top nut has a steel type of ring ...it was a steel tube that fit snug ove the main bolt and the right size to sit in the middle of the bearing so it would spin...I guess this might be the hardest thing for people to find...the right steel tube...I used a bench grinder at work to size all my stuff but guess you could go with a hacksaw....OK to get my weight right and spin right I tried a few things then found the perfect thing....I will try to size in inches...but we are metric over here...Australia....I found a piece of galvanized pipe...lying around at work...think its just an old style water pipe of some kind....but anything like it would do....it had a tread going through the middle so its like a connecter to join 2 pipes or something....its about 2inches long by 1 and half inches wide....I got a jigsaw and cut some plywood circles the right size to plug up the ends....so made them a little to big so they had to be hammered into the ends so they wouldnt come out....I drilled a hole into the dead center(Or as close as you can) of them before i hammered them into place but you could do it after I guess...Now that hole was to take the bolt....so I made it a little small as well so it dosent move...had to hammer it through the holes....could make it a little looser if you wanted but would need to glue it then......ok so now I had my piece of wood with bearings in it....and a big lump of pipe on a bolt...ok so now I cut anouther ring of steel to fit over the bolt and for the bearing to rest on...and slid it over the end and then it sat on top wood plug in the pipe...these 2 rings are not very long at all....the sizes are upto you and what bolt you use ect...anyway then I just slid my bearings don so they sat on that....then anouther ring to the top of the bearing....then just screw a nut down to tighten it all...but not too tight....just so there is not too much movement but a good spin....hopefully you made the block of wood the same width as the pipe you used...
so after that it easy...just pull apart an optical mouse and fasten it to your block of wood...I just had to drill 2 little holes into the plastic on the base of the mouse and screwed it in place....I havent mounted it into my cp yet but will be easy....just make sure you bolt is long enough to go through and to fasten the knob of your choice....drill a hole in your cp and fasten from below..TO EASY...ive tested it and its fair dinkum PERFECT....think Ive told you everything you need to know....any questions I will help if I can....hope someone find this a help....go for it guys.....

sorry if the pics dont help....

[rollerball]

more pics

[Fozzy The Bear]

That's what this forum is all about!! a bit of "do it yourself" bodge work, to get a good result.  Excellent!!

There's nothing there, that anybody here couldn't have a go at doing. Nice One Mate!! 

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[psychopanda]

And why didn't I think of that! 

Nice work!

[rdagger]

Very clever.
How does Arkanoid play?
How does Tempest play?
I suppose the diameter of the pipe would have a direct effect on the game play.
Did you experiment with other pipe materials to see the effects of different reflective surfaces?

[quarterback]

Very clever.

I agree.  I love the fact that (apparently) the galvanized nature of the pipe allows it to work with the optical mouse.

I'm also glad it's a simple idea.  I can't imagine how confusing the write up would be for a more complex idea!     

[rollerball]

didnt try anything other than the pipe but I though if it didnt pickup anygood on the optics I could have just stuck some fabric of some kind....furry type stuff over the outside....that would work as well I guess....Ive played arkanoid with it but only out of the cp and it worked fantastic...havent put it in the cp as of yet...but it feels GREAT...its all about the pipe and weight that makes it work so good....maybe some people might not like the weighty feel but can always change the pipe you use...to whatever you want to stick on there....as long as its round.....the mouse only sees left and right....if someone else has a go at building one of these I would love to hear how it goes....have fun..

[alexandro98]

Whoa, nice!
Im curious about resolution. 
Anyone know what the resolution of a typical optical mouse? 
Isnt it something like XXX per inch.  So if the pipe is So many Inch around (diamter or is that radius or circumference  ) times the resolution per inch.

Hmm wonder what this resolution is comparted to a normal spinner, say slikstik or the GGG spinner.
And I wonder what resolution and pipe diameter we could have to combine to get a close to Arkanoid spinner resolution..
Anyone want to try to figure out the math on this one, because my head hurts!   

[RandyT]

This is good for a chuckle (note the date)

For those who are curious, here was my version.  It's not as goofy as the idea I had before it though 


FWIW, it's very tricky to get the tension on the bearings just right.  Too tight and it doesn't spin.  Not tight enough and it spins great, but the shaft will wobble.

Neat idea using the texture of the pipe.  I actually made a pattern on an address label and wrapped a plastic drum.  Surprising how difficult it is to make a repetitive pattern that doesn't confuse the optical mouse.

The only possible drawback with the optical mice is that they are designed specifically to be a relative positioning device.   I'm not sure how absolute they are.  In other words, paddle games work a lot better if the paddle goes back to nearly the exact spot it was in if one were to turn the dial a half turn and turn it back to where it was previously.  A traditional encoder wheel might be better in this respect, especially when turned quickly, but some testing should decide that one easily enough.

Still a decent option for the tight budget, especially now that the HP/Agilent mouse technology has become so inexpensive.

RandyT

[horseboy]

You are truly way ahead of your time.


But slightly behind mine.

[MinerAl]

ok, so the next step is...

Seems like the hard part of making a push/pull spinner is the optics have to travel up and down with the wheel, but the wheel on this is like 2 inches long and not attached to the optics at all, so it seems to me that just springing that pipe with simple switches on the top and bottom is a shoe-in for easy push/pull action.

one of the many half thought through ideas I've been meaning to get around to for years.

[clhug]

ok, so the next step is...

Seems like the hard part of making a push/pull spinner is the optics have to travel up and down with the wheel, but the wheel on this is like 2 inches long and not attached to the optics at all, so it seems to me that just springing that pipe with simple switches on the top and bottom is a shoe-in for easy push/pull action.

one of the many half thought through ideas I've been meaning to get around to for years.

I was thinking the same exact thing.  No parts to have to mesh together so this would be a perfect candidate for a push/pull!

On a side note, I was working on a hybrid of the hard drive hack spinner and rollerball's original optical design.  That is, using the hard drive motor as the spinner and supergluing washers to the bottom for flywheel weight but also as a surface to shine the optical mouse on.  Now I think I'm going to have to un-superglue (have to find some of that solvent stuff) the washers and fit a piece of pipe on the back side of the motor.

[rollerball]

Good to see Ive started some guys thinking and playing around with ideas.....push pull idea could work....with some work and a few springs ect....just keep the ideas comming....always seems the simple way is the best way..

[BadBrad]

How bout a mouse pad cut and glued to pipe if optics were a problem.

[rollerball]

Yeah dont see why not....but I have no probs with optics on the pipe....i think its more to do with how close you can get the mouse optic lens to sit over the pipe...when I spin mine it actually JUST touches once per 360 spin....so my pipe is not true center...but close....very small clicking noise as it spins but wouldnt be able to hear it under the CP.....or I could adjust it as well fairly easy....just slip a bit of paper under where I screwed it.....or bend the plastic a bit....

[clhug]

Very clever.
How does Arkanoid play?
How does Tempest play?
I suppose the diameter of the pipe would have a direct effect on the game play.
Did you experiment with other pipe materials to see the effects of different reflective surfaces?

Whoa, nice!
Im curious about resolution. 
Anyone know what the resolution of a typical optical mouse? 
Isnt it something like XXX per inch.  So if the pipe is So many Inch around (diamter or is that radius or circumference  ) times the resolution per inch.

Hmm wonder what this resolution is comparted to a normal spinner, say slikstik or the GGG spinner.
And I wonder what resolution and pipe diameter we could have to combine to get a close to Arkanoid spinner resolution..
Anyone want to try to figure out the math on this one, because my head hurts!   

I'm also curious about resolution.  I've always thought (from advertisements that I've seen) that optical mice had a higher resolution than ball mice, but I can't be sure.  I thought of a quick test that we might able to do though, if not to actually measure, at least to compare, resolution.

Rollerball, could you do 3 things with your new spinner and post the results here?

First, in Arkanoid, put the vaus (paddle) all the way to the left of the screen, then turn your spinner slowly until the vaus just touches the right side.  Roughtly how much of a rotation, or how many rotations, of the spinner did it take to get the vaus all the way to the right?

Then in Tempest, check 2 things.  In Level 1 (just so we know exactly what level to compare), how much of a rotation of the spinner does it take to make one revolution around the tempest grid?  And then vice versa, how many revolutions around the tempest grid do you get from exactly one 360 degree rotation of the spinner?

Now, somebody with a Tornado, and somebody with a GGG spinner do these exact same tests and post the results.

And just for further comparison, maybe somebody with a home-built ball-type mouse hack spinner do these same tests and post the results.

Oh, and just to make sure everybody's comparing the same, before you do these tests make sure the sensitivity on the spinner on each game is set to the original MAME default in case you've changed it for your personal preference.  (If there is a spinner sensitivity setting in MAME.  I'm still new enough to it that I don't know for sure yet.)

I'm very interested to see the results!!  Not exactly science and by no means a firm indication of one over the other, but should at least give an idea.  I wish I could provide some test results myself but unfortunately I don't have any spinner myself yet.

[rollerball]

Yeah Im only guessing but I would say the size of the pipe will make a difference...but you can change the mouse sensitivity under windows control panel...im using windows 98....and have played with the settings a bit.....as ive said my spinner is not in my cp as of yet....Im at work at the moment but from what I rember from last night test when I was on arkanoid from one side of the screen to the other was like if you had a mark on the top of a dial and your paddle was in the middle then the paddle on screen would be all the way right as your mark is pointin right....at 3 o clock and all the way left was about 9 o clock....but dont quote me on that....but thats how I rember it....and pole position played well too.....but playing with the settings would get different results Im sure of that....so can just adjust to each persons preference I guess..

[rollerball]

Oh yeah everone Ive never had a spinner before and barely rember playing spinner games from back in the day.....so if someone builds this and dosent like it then sorry...lol....but from what I have gotten out of it so far seems to be good to me....for gameplay wise it feels fine...but im not the best judge I guess....

[Fozzy The Bear]

from what I have gotten out of it so far seems to be good to me....

Isn't that the only thing that matters!! If it works for you then it's good to go!!

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[rdagger]

I just picked up a travel mouse by Targus (Model # PAUM01U) that would be perfect because it is much smaller than a regular mouse.

[ahofle]

Rollerball, could you do 3 things with your new spinner and post the results here?

First, in Arkanoid, put the vaus (paddle) all the way to the left of the screen, then turn your spinner slowly until the vaus just touches the right side.  Roughtly how much of a rotation, or how many rotations, of the spinner did it take to get the vaus all the way to the right?

Then in Tempest, check 2 things.  In Level 1 (just so we know exactly what level to compare), how much of a rotation of the spinner does it take to make one revolution around the tempest grid?  And then vice versa, how many revolutions around the tempest grid do you get from exactly one 360 degree rotation of the spinner?

Now, somebody with a Tornado, and somebody with a GGG spinner do these exact same tests and post the results.

And just for further comparison, maybe somebody with a home-built ball-type mouse hack spinner do these same tests and post the results.

Oh, and just to make sure everybody's comparing the same, before you do these tests make sure the sensitivity on the spinner on each game is set to the original MAME default in case you've changed it for your personal preference.  (If there is a spinner sensitivity setting in MAME.  I'm still new enough to it that I don't know for sure yet.)

I'm very interested to see the results!!  Not exactly science and by no means a firm indication of one over the other, but should at least give an idea.  I wish I could provide some test results myself but unfortunately I don't have any spinner myself yet.

Problem is there are other factors like Windows mouse drivers/settings/speed/acceleration (and maybe even MAME version disparities) that would have to be identical to the person testing with the GGG and slikstik spinners to get an accurate comparison.

[rollerball]

yeah true...would be VERY hard to compare...and it can be adjusted anyway....as Fozzy says...it works....so what more do you want I guess...

[clhug]

Problem is there are other factors like Windows mouse drivers/settings/speed/acceleration (and maybe even MAME version disparities) that would have to be identical to the person testing with the GGG and slikstik spinners to get an accurate comparison.

Ah, I knew there was a sensitivity setting in Windows but I didn't realize it would affect MAME.  If it does, I definitely see that would present a problem.

[rollerball]

Yeah but its not a prob for games...can play with the settings till you have it just the way you want it...

[clhug]

yeah true...would be VERY hard to compare...and it can be adjusted anyway....as Fozzy says...it works....so what more do you want I guess...

I'm definitely not trying to put down your item (I'm trying to build something similar).  I was actually hoping that your optical mouse would come out with higher resolution than the others.  But based on the previous post I see that it would be hard to do an accurate fair comparison (unless maybe one person had all 3 items and could do the tests on the same PC).

Sensitivity adjustment helps, but can't compensate for everything.  This was discussed in another thread a few months ago.  If a device had too low of a physical resolution, you can crank up the sensitivity but the movement of the item on screen will be jerky.  I had seen some posts from some people saying that they thought the movement of the vaus in Arkanoid wasn't smooth enough using the Tornado spinner.  Worked fine for other stuff, just not the best for Arkanoid.  I'm sure lots of other people probably can't tell the difference in Arkanoid though.  I'm not sure I'll be able to.  I don't have a spinner set up to play it in MAME yet though so I can't tell.  But I do have an actual Arkanoid 2 machine to compare to once I get the spinner in MAME.  On a side note, on my real Arkanoid 2 takes about 1/3 of a turn (somewhere between 45 and 90 degrees rotation) to get the vaus from one side of the screen to the other.

[u_rebelscum]

Problem is there are other factors like Windows mouse drivers/settings/speed/acceleration (and maybe even MAME version disparities) that would have to be identical to the person testing with the GGG and slikstik spinners to get an accurate comparison.

Ah, I knew there was a sensitivity setting in Windows but I didn't realize it would affect MAME.  If it does, I definitely see that would present a problem.

According to MS's doc's (dang, can't find the pages ATM), it's not supposed to effect mame.   But it almost always does. 

Depends on the driver and how (and when) it applies the windows sensitivity, I guess.

[rollerball]

No worries clhug I understand where your comming form...would be cool if you can build one like mine and see how it compares??

[clhug]

No problem.  I got the superglued washers off of my hard drive motor.  Now just to find a piece of pipe that will fit.  The bottom of the motor is exactly 1.5" so if I can find some 1.5" ID pipe I should be all set.  I just hope I don't have to buy a 10 ft. piece of pipe to cut off the 3 or 4 inches I need.

Another idea I was working on was a belt driven traditional mouse hack.  That is, the spinner shaft has a large flywheel that drives a belt of some sort that drives a smaller shaft actually attached to the mouse encoder.  This should give much higher effective resolution.  One problem I was having was getting the belt to track.  Your idea of the pipe should help with that too if I still opt to go that route.  Instead of a narrow width that the belt has to track in, I'd have 3 or 4 inches on the spinner shaft.  Of course it still can't travel that far or it'll get out of track on the encoder shaft but it should help allow me to align it a bit easier.

[rollerball]

all sounds good ....the thing I like about mine also is that its not too big....like for under your cp.....belts and things would make it harder to fit under your cp I would guess....mine is quite easy to fit...

[clhug]

Dang, I went to Lowe's tonight and I can't find a piece of pipe that's exactly the right size to fit over the bottom of the hard drive motor.  It's either a hair to big or a hair too small.  I'll have to keep looking at other stores, or work out a way to use the slightly larger pipe and fill in the gap, and still keep the pipe exactly centered.

[rollerball]

bummer....keep looking.....let me know how you go.....maybe look for something other than a pipe......or an engineer or toolmaker may have something lying around in a workshop if you ask around??

[Quarterhorse]

I'm thinking of trying something like this with a wireless travel mouse.  Put it in a small 3x3 box with a spinner on top and plug in the transmitter in a usb port.  Sounds like something some smart folks could actually resale if done right......(hint hint) 

[quarterback]

Somebody in another thread asked a question about this one regarding the use of pvc instead of a metal pipe.   It seems to me that some of that fleck-stone paint on the outside of the PVC might work as far as the optics go.   

Also, there was concern of the lack-of-weight of the pvc, but you could always fill it with something(s) or attach big washers etc to the bottom.

[lloydcom]

In my previous post "Losing The Plot" I constructed a mouse hack spinner  from a Hard Drive Spindle.  A good note that the Fujitsu drives are real easy to get into, and Quantum drives are a no no.  Well unless you have a blowtorch...

I bought a $1 mouse, hacked it and made the stupid mistake to cut out every other notch on the spindle, which resulted in a wonky travel of the mouse cursor.  Replacing with a new spindle resulted in an awesome response.  Tempest is a blast!!!!

Then came the spin test.  Believe me you need to put large washers on the the bottom of the hard drive spindle.  BTW the mouse optical shaft fits perfectly in the bottom of the hard drive spindle.

A block of wood for the board and away you go.  The knob for the spinner is the largest stereo knob in the electronics store. and its perfect.  I'm looking for a smaller encoding board, but all mice now that size are optical.

How much?  For me $3.00 including a dead HDD from a dumpster.

Can anyone do it cheaper?

BTW someone above wanted to control Discs of Tron with a spinner.  I bought a $5 USB joystick to goof with, and the buttons on the joystick (PC LINE) control the up and down action too.  Just map the button or HAT on your joystick to control the movement.

Thank you MAME devs.

I love this hobby.

[rollerball]

Ok have got my spinner in my cp now....so all I need is a knob for the top...going to make a few and try them.....as Im sure the dia of the knob will make a difference as to how much you need to turn it....bigger the knob the more you need to turn it???Am I right???Think it would make a bit of difference...anyway going to play around with it...will let you know how it goes....new pics soon as well...

[rollerball]

Got my Knob on my spinner now...have been playing Tempest heaps....all works fine....so very happy with it....

[kiddk1]

ok i was in the process of making one of these when I realized my mouse does not work when playing any mame games so why would the spinner work?

[ArcadEd]

clhug-

Could you use the pipe that is a little bit too big, but wrap something around the motor?  Like maybe some electrical tape, making a few revolutions until it fits snugly, making sure start and finish the wrap in the same place?

[clhug]

clhug-

Could you use the pipe that is a little bit too big, but wrap something around the motor?  Like maybe some electrical tape, making a few revolutions until it fits snugly, making sure start and finish the wrap in the same place?

Yeah, I've done with that some masking tape.  It works okay but I'm concerned with the tape eventually slipping and the pipe falling off.  Also, it appears the piece of pipe I bought isn't formed quite exactly symmetrical and it wobbles a bit too.  It's noticeable even just rolling the pipe on the counter.  I could probably live with it if I had to but I'm still looking for a better solution.

[ArcadEd]

Did you look at different pipes too?  PVC, ABS, Conduit, PVC Conduit, Copper, Galvenized, Fence Poles .  I'm guessing you needed something heavier so you went galvenized

I'm just curious as I'm guessing most of those have a different ID.

How much of the pipe fits over the motor?
 If it's really close, maybe you could get the smaller size and hook up the piece to a drill with some bushings and spin it while sanding the inside with a file to make it small enough.  The spinning will help keep the sanding symentrical.