Mala Users - Do you want LEDWiz Support?

[edge]

Mala Users,
Would you like to see LEDWiz support in Mala (without modding the chip)?

If there is enough interest, we can gather some funds together and send a LEDWiz (or two) to Swindus.

I love Mala and think that with LEDWiz support built in, it would be even better!

Edge

PS. I know Mala LED/LCD hardware exists.  LEDWiz would be yet another option for this great & flexible frontend.

[Howard_Casto]

Before you start that, you better make sure Swindus is willing to add support.  It was my understanding that it isn't added because he doesn't want to add it. 

[JoyMonkey]

I thought Swindus already had an LEDwiz that LoadMan kindly donated. ?

[swindus]

Both true. I have a LEDWiz from loadman, but at the moment there is no reason and no motivation for me to add LEDWiz support to MaLa.

[Timoe]

plus the mod is simple, cheap and takes 30 seconds to install.  Its too easy to do and too easy to use after you do.

[headkaze]

How exactly do you add LEDWiz support to a FE? I don't see how you need the FE to control the LED's when you can run an app in the background. A small app running resident could control the LEDWiz based on WaveIn data fed through the Wave Mix Output so it changes according to sound. It could also run through a set of patterns and colour either randomly generated, through audio input or from custom data provided in an ini file. Judging by this thread Randy T has already started developing something along these lines. I think a tray app would be fine for this and that way any FE can use it and it will still be effected by the audio in Mame and other emulators.

I'm don't know much about how this works as I don't own a LEDWiz or transparent buttons on my cab, so perhaps it gets annoying to have them changing colours during gameplay, in this case you could add support to stop sending to the LEDWiz while certain processes are running. You could also add some simple communication interface between the tray app and other programs like FE's that can sync to it for things like onscreen CP display to match the LED's in the buttons.

[loadman]

How exactly do you add LEDWiz support to a FE?

MaLa currently has the option of.
*Light appropriate buttons when a game is selected in the FE and/or during game play.
* Play your custom made animation sequences on certain events (eg game launch/exit) using the supplied animation editor
* Play random and/or custom made animation sequences in 'attract mode' when the cab is idle

perhaps it gets annoying to have them changing colours during gameplay,

I would not want that either

[loadman]

Both true. I have a LEDWiz from loadman, but at the moment there is no reason and no motivation for me to add LEDWiz support to MaLa.

All I choose to see in that quote is 'at the moment'   

[Howard_Casto]

My thing about this stuff is... well it shouldn't be done in the front-end istelf in the first place. 

Lights for each game should only be done once the game is launched (because ledwiz is slow to respond).

Attractmode sequences could be started via a simple script or batch file when the fe launches. 

Idle sequences could be tied into a screensaver. 


The only thing that should really be internalized is the event-based animations.  I can see it for that, but not so much for the rest.  Even then it's much better to setup the fe so that it looks for a batch file or exe and launches it rather than doing it internally.  This way the user doesn't have to worry about the type of hardware they have as they can rig something up regardless. 

I'm on my third fe here, I've learned that you need to exteralize as much as possible.

Just a suggestion. 

[loadman]

Lights for each game should only be done once the game is launched (because ledwiz is slow to respond).

That is not the case with MaLa and IO-Warrior. You can race through the list and the Leds keep up. Not sure about Wiz with Mala (obviously) but I have nearly finished writting a program the cotrolls both and the wiz via OCX 'and it seems the Wiz appears' to have a bit of lag. (Don't get upset Randy I have not done enough testing). I will release my test prog later this week as that could be my fault.

[Timoe]

whether it "should" or "shouldnt" be handled by a front end, I cant comment because I am ignorant.  But the modded LEDwiz works great with MaLa.  Mala is very easy to set up, the ledwiz mod is no different.

There are no funky ini files to edit and no weird support files that need to be in certain folders for anything to work right.

It just works.

[BamBam]

whether it "should" or "shouldnt" be handled by a front end, I cant comment because I am ignorant.  But the modded LEDwiz works great with MaLa.  Mala is very easy to set up, the ledwiz mod is no different.

There are no funky ini files to edit and no weird support files that need to be in certain folders for anything to work right.

It just works.

I second that!

[Havok]

** Evil thread poisoning by Havok **

The new version of Atomic (.18) supports the LEDWiz natively...

We now return to the topic at hand, and I think that Mala is a great front end as well...

 

[swindus]

SPAM 

[horseboy]

** Evil thread poisoning by Havok **

The new version of Atomic (.18) supports the LEDWiz natively...

We now return to the topic at hand, and I think that Mala is a great front end as well...

 

Already, huh? Youki works fast. 

[RandyT]

My thing about this stuff is... well it shouldn't be done in the front-end istelf in the first place. 

Lights for each game should only be done once the game is launched (because ledwiz is slow to respond).

What are you talking about, Howard?

Why would the LED-Wiz be "slow to respond" from a front-end?  If you are having a problem like this, you are doing something wrong.

RandyT

[Howard_Casto]

My thing about this stuff is... well it shouldn't be done in the front-end istelf in the first place. 

Lights for each game should only be done once the game is launched (because ledwiz is slow to respond).

What are you talking about, Howard?

Why would the LED-Wiz be "slow to respond" from a front-end?  If you are having a problem like this, you are doing something wrong.

RandyT

You are getting defensive on something you shouldn't.

If you are scrolling through a list at about 6 ms or less per game and the ledwiz has a latency of about 10-15 ms and you are going to have to turn the lights on manually instead of using a layout file it isn't going to be able to keep up.  You can have it light em up after it stops, but in that case you might as well wait until you launch the game. 

[RandyT]

You are getting defensive on something you shouldn't.

If you are scrolling through a list at about 6 ms or less per game and the ledwiz has a latency of about 10-15 ms and you are going to have to turn the lights on manually instead of using a layout file it isn't going to be able to keep up.  You can have it light em up after it stops, but in that case you might as well wait until you launch the game. 

The reason I am getting defensive is because you are blaming the slowness on the LED-Wiz, rather than where it belongs, which is most likely the file access to retrieve the layouts.

Even if there were a 50ms delay, that would still be 20 layouts a second.  The screen caps don't even load and display that quickly with most FE's while scrolling.


BTW, if anyone would like a faster OCX, contact me.  The compatibility delays in the last one were a little excessive.

RandyT

*EDIT*  Another thing to consider is that a smart approach would be to only make them light up after the list has been stable for 100ms or thereabouts.  No reason to keep changing the lights if no-one is interested in looking at them.

[Howard_Casto]

No, it actually does have to do with how the ledwiz (and the interfaces you've given us) operate. 

When most devices can't keep up they buffer their messages, the ledwiz doesn't. 

I don't think anyone would expect the lights to stay in sync with the current game while a list is scrolling, but when it stops they would expect it to display the layout for the current game they've stopped on.  The way the ocx is setup a person can't guarantee that unless code is put in to wait a while after the list has stopped and send the command a final time.  So while scrolling it won't sync (none of them will) and when stopped you are going to have to send the command again. 

I know this to be true because of the rapid transmission tests I did with my little test app.  If you just happen to send a command while another command is being processed, it is ignored, meaning your last command (the important one) might not get through.  Usually this isn't a big deal, but in time-sensitive instances like this, it might be. 

In other words, like I said originally, there is no way the ledwiz can keep up.   

Now keeping in mind that I don't have an io-warrior to play with, I do have the specs on it and it appears that mala uses direct communication, meaning that it doesn't have a ocx "middle man" that can miss messages while it is busy doing other things.  Neither one would be able to stay perfectly in sync, but the io-warrior would do a better job if you insist on brining up the old "it's your fault, not the ledwiz" broken record you are so fond of.   

[loadman]

** Evil thread poisoning by Havok **

The new version of Atomic (.18) supports the LEDWiz natively...

We now return to the topic at hand, and I think that Mala is a great front end as well...

 

RED CARD   

[loadman]

BTW, if anyone would like a faster OCX, contact me.  The compatibility delays in the last one were a little excessive.

I will. Thanks.     I am not 'Wiz' slamming  I hope it is faster.

*EDIT*  Another thing to consider is that a smart approach would be to only make them light up after the list has been stable for 100ms or thereabouts.  No reason to keep changing the lights if no-one is interested in looking at them.

FYI Mala and IOWarrior can do this scrolling through games faster than I could read them and the leds keep up flashing away. Not that this is a must have for most, but it does look cool. (Like you RGB music demo is cool)

I will test again when I get the new OCX thanks Randy.

[RandyT]

Neither one would be able to stay perfectly in sync, but the io-warrior would do a better job if you insist on brining up the old "it's your fault, not the ledwiz" broken record you are so fond of.   

A good programmer does amazing things with the tools at his disposal.  He does not whine and give up, he overcomes.  I guess "programmers" have just become lazy nowadays.

There's a huge difference between "can't do it" and "can't do it the only way I know how or choose to".

BTW, how many colors can that other chip give you again?  Got any other apples you'd like to make orange juice from? 

RandyT

[loadman]

I can't comment on the programming efficiently element (as I have just started coding)  but please stop the Warrior V Wiz debate firing up again.

 I have 2 of each on my test bench. Both are good bits of gear and have their pros and cons. 

In my opinion (from testing so far) an 'ideal' system would have one on each doing different roles.

[Howard_Casto]

Neither one would be able to stay perfectly in sync, but the io-warrior would do a better job if you insist on brining up the old "it's your fault, not the ledwiz" broken record you are so fond of.   

A good programmer does amazing things with the tools at his disposal.  He does not whine and give up, he overcomes.  I guess "programmers" have just become lazy nowadays.

There's a huge difference between "can't do it" and "can't do it the only way I know how or choose to".

And a good engineer doesn't blame the end user when their product doesn't do what is advertised or doesn't do what they want it to.  I guess product developers have just become lazy nowadays as well. 

[RandyT]

Neither one would be able to stay perfectly in sync, but the io-warrior would do a better job if you insist on brining up the old "it's your fault, not the ledwiz" broken record you are so fond of.   

A good programmer does amazing things with the tools at his disposal.  He does not whine and give up, he overcomes.  I guess "programmers" have just become lazy nowadays.

There's a huge difference between "can't do it" and "can't do it the only way I know how or choose to".

And a good engineer doesn't blame the end user when their product doesn't do what is advertised or doesn't do what they want it to.  I guess product developers have just become lazy nowadays as well. 

No, sometimes we just think things further through.

How big a buffer should the hardware use?    Should it just continue to lag further and further behind the streamed data until the system runs out of memory?  Or, if the user stops scrolling, should the lights continue to flash for 10 seconds after the fact?

If you would stop to think about things before you come down on people, you'd probably do it less often.....but I doubt it.

RandyT

[loadman]

How big a buffer should the hardware use?    Should it just continue to lag further and further behind the streamed data until the system runs out of memory?  Or, if the user stops scrolling, should the lights continue to flash for 10 seconds after the fact?

I think 'Ideally' it should be able to keep up, with at least simple on off commands anyway like the IO-warrior can with MaLa.. 

But as you point out the Wiz is capable of more so I guess there is a slight trade off?

I have not tested the new OCX as I'm still at work. I will release my LED test prog too to see if anyone thinks of a better way to controll the Wiz than what I have done.

[RandyT]

How big a buffer should the hardware use?    Should it just continue to lag further and further behind the streamed data until the system runs out of memory?  Or, if the user stops scrolling, should the lights continue to flash for 10 seconds after the fact?

I think 'Ideally' it should be able to keep up, with at least simple on off commands anyway like the IO-warrior can with MaLa.. 

But as you point out the Wiz is capable of more so I guess there is a slight trade off?

No tradeoffs.  It already does.  With the previous OCX, simple on/off transitions for all 32 outputs could occur roughly every 10ms.  That's up to 100 transitions per second.  The latest one will allow for up to 500 transitions per second, with even faster throughput available using the "FastCom" property (at a cost of compatibility with some USB chipsets.)

This discussion is academic at this point anyway.  There are already beta testers out there who have been using an FE that does all of this with the LED-Wiz.

RandyT

[loadman]

No tradeoffs.  It already does.  With the previous OCX, simple on/off transitions for all 32 outputs could occur roughly every 10ms.  That's up to 100 transitions per second.  The latest one will allow for up to 500 transitions per second, with even faster throughput available using the "FastCom" property (at a cost of compatibility with some USB chipsets.)

This discussion is academic at this point anyway.  There are already beta testers out there who have been using an FE that does all of this with the LED-Wiz.

I'm didn't get that speed with the old OCX so I guess I'm doing  something wrong.

Also I'm confused if you are refering to Atomic beta test as I thought Youki said he made his own DLL not using OCX?

[RandyT]

No tradeoffs.  It already does.  With the previous OCX, simple on/off transitions for all 32 outputs could occur roughly every 10ms.  That's up to 100 transitions per second.  The latest one will allow for up to 500 transitions per second, with even faster throughput available using the "FastCom" property (at a cost of compatibility with some USB chipsets.)

This discussion is academic at this point anyway.  There are already beta testers out there who have been using an FE that does all of this with the LED-Wiz.

I'm didn't get that speed with the old OCX so I guess I'm doing  something wrong.

If you are using the commands to control individual ports serially instead of all of the ports in parallel, that would explain it.  In other words, if you want to turn on the first 4 outputs, rather than issuing the following sequentially;

S01:1
S02:1
S03:1
S04:1

you would do it all with one command, such as;

SB1:15

or better yet, control the states of all outputs with the SBA command.

If you have already been doing this, I'm not sure what to tell you. 

Also I'm confused if you are refering to Atomic beta test as I thought Youki said he made his own DLL not using OCX?

Why are you confused? I haven't stated otherwise.  Youki's DLL is structured essentially the same way, however.

RandyT

[loadman]

If you are using the commands to control individual ports serially instead of all of the ports in parallel, that would explain it.

I am indeed but only to turn the same LED on and off. I dunno ....I'll look into it again  :-)

Youki's DLL is structured essentially the same way, however.

I might ask Youki if he will send me a copy when he returns from Holiday to compare using Delphi.

Thanks.. Going home now to try new OCX
[EDIT LATER] Yep that seems a bit better.

[loadman]

My thing about this stuff is... well it shouldn't be done in the front-end istelf in the first place. 
Lights for each game should only be done once the game is launched (because ledwiz is slow to respond).
Attractmode sequences could be started via a simple script or batch file when the fe launches. 
Idle sequences could be tied into a screensaver. 
The only thing that should really be internalized is the event-based animations.  I can see it for that, but not so much for the rest.  Even then it's much better to setup the fe so that it looks for a batch file or exe and launches it rather than doing it internally.  This way the user doesn't have to worry about the type of hardware they have as they can rig something up regardless. 
I'm on my third fe here, I've learned that you need to exteralize as much as possible.
Just a suggestion. 

New Sub Question for MaLa users:
If such a external program were written that supported the Led-Wiz including 'MaLa event-based animations' who would want/use that?

[Duster72]

I would use it.

[Samanai]

Ditto.

[loadman]

I would use it.

Ask and you shall receive

http://mala.arcadezentrum.com/plugins.html

The plugin will have a nice prog for constructing you Wiz Config file (to be released by Edge soon)

Also this plug-in will be developed to a include more cool features

[mr.Curmudgeon]

loadman,

 



mrC