Looking for keyboard encoder

[Trimoor]

I've been out of the loop for some time now, and I need a keyboard encoder.  I know there have been some advances since I've been here.  What would you recommend for 18 inputs?

I don't need USB, or anything at all really.  Just 18 inputs, or maybe 20 if the price is decent.

I also need a 28 input encoder.  Any good prices on that?

[Tahnok]

Ipac:
http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html
or keywiz eco 2:
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_80&products_id=200
I recamend the ipac.

[kiddk1]

keywiz is great

[Trimoor]

So far the keywiz looks the best.  Is there anything cheaper?

If not, I'm trying to decide between the ps/2 keyboard and the USB gamepad.  I'll be running Linux, so hopefully there will be no compatibility issues with the gamepad, and it will free up the keyboard port.  But the ps/2 has guaranteed compatibility and no extra setup.

[deadkenndys1105]

I say go the i-pac way.

[Trimoor]

The ipac is too expensive, and I would never use more than the basic features.  I'm experienced with electronics, and don't need a screw terminal for every connection.

[kiddk1]

i am running keywiz with a usb keyboard

[Kremmit]

The only new options since you were around last are the Tokn16 / Tokn32, and the Atomarcade.net encoders.  The Tokn units use a matrix, and have some other oddities, and I can't reccomend one.  The Atomarcade encoders have trackball/spinner functionality built-in as well as the keyboard encoder.  They haven't been thoroughly tested yet, some have expressed concern that they may limited in the number of simultaneous keypresses.  Tiger-Heli has more info on the Tokn on his site, and there's a thread in the Hardware Review forum about the Atomarcade. 

Really, for what you're wanting, the KeyWiz/GPWiz is probably the way to go.  If you wanted screw terminals, then the IPAC VE can be had for a comparable price to the KeyWiz Max, but if you don't mind soldering, you can't beat the Eco.  Unless you want the spinner/trackball functionality from the Atomarcade.

[Grasshopper]

Personally I'd buy a Mini-PAC and make my own wiring harness from a hacked IDE cable.

http://www.ultimarc.com/minipac.html

In my opinion the Mini-PAC is the best value encoder available if you want to keep your options open as it is both USB and ps/2 compatible. And unlike the Keywiz encoders it keeps its setting in non-volatile memory and has trackball/spinner functionality built in. Even if you don't think you'll need those features it's nice to know they're there in case you change your plans later on.

[SirPeale]

18 inputs?  Hack a keyboard.

28?  Keywiz.

[Havok]

I run a Keywiz and GPWiz - they both work great. Much easier and quicker than hacking a keyboard. If you ever venture forth past Mame - the GPWiz may give you some trouble, some games are looking for a particular keystroke, and Joy2Key may or may not work for you (Do they have a Linux port?).

If you don't mind a little extra config\heartache - the GPWiz is a good choice, since it will allow you to have a ps\2 keyboard attached at the same time...

Either way, you can't go wrong. They are both small, easy to use and require very little setup\configuration.

[Tiger-Heli]

So far the keywiz looks the best.  Is there anything cheaper?

If not, I'm trying to decide between the ps/2 keyboard and the USB gamepad.  I'll be running Linux, so hopefully there will be no compatibility issues with the gamepad, and it will free up the keyboard port.  But the ps/2 has guaranteed compatibility and no extra setup.

KeyWiz does not have EEPROM or a Linux programming utility - so it probably isn't the best choice IF you need more than the default codeset.   Otherwise it should be fine.

[Trimoor]

So how does the programming feature of the keywiz work?  Is it just a low level program that remaps the keys in the OS?  That means I can't program it under windows and put it on my Linux box?

[Havok]

So how does the programming feature of the keywiz work?  Is it just a low level program that remaps the keys in the OS?  That means I can't program it under windows and put it on my Linux box?

Nope - it will lose the programming when the power is cut. You really shouldn't need to re-program it unless you want a funky setup - there are two different codesets you can enable without programming at all.

Here's some info:

http://groovygamegear.com/PDF/KEYWIZ_ECO.pdf

[RandyT]

So how does the programming feature of the keywiz work?  Is it just a low level program that remaps the keys in the OS?  That means I can't program it under windows and put it on my Linux box?

Nope - it will lose the programming when the power is cut. You really shouldn't need to re-program it unless you want a funky setup - there are two different codesets you can enable without programming at all.

Here's some info:

http://groovygamegear.com/PDF/KEYWIZ_ECO.pdf

A quick note for the Windows users.

Thanks to a complete re-write of the code (that was fun  ) and some assistance from MikeQ on the 2K / XP side, the KeyWiz Uploader software is about to be updated for speed.

In full auto mode, codeset uploading in 98/SE takes just over 3 seconds and 2K / XP comes in at about 6.75 seconds.  This speed increase will be enjoyed by all current KeyWiz users without the need to upgrade parts.  I'm sure current 2K / XP users will be rejoicing at hearing this news .

I'll make an official announcement when it's ready for download.

RandyT

[Havok]

Hopefully there is a switch for a fully silent mode?

[Tiger-Heli]

Nope - it will lose the programming when the power is cut. You really shouldn't need to re-program it unless you want a funky setup - there are two different codesets you can enable without programming at all.

Here's some info:

http://groovygamegear.com/PDF/KEYWIZ_ECO.pdf

Just to clarify, since it is not programmable under Linux - well basically not - (Technically, it only loses memory when the power is shut off to it, so you could in theory exit Linux, program it in DOS, and then restart Linux and retain its memory, but . . . )

On the chart Havok linked to - the "Default Keys in ROM codeset" is always available.  The Shazaam keys from this set are also available, however, note that P, Enter, Tab, and Esc are all default inputs and are listed multiple times, so you really only gain 18 unique shited inputs, not 24.

The "Default Keys in RAM" are also available, but I don't think you can have the Eco boot up directly into this codeset, you have to start it with the other set and then press Shazaaam! and move the joystick to the right or left (forget which one).

[Tiger-Heli]

Hopefully there is a switch for a fully silent mode?

There was a different version of the software for the older model for silent mode: http://www.groovygamegear.com/KWstealth.zip

[RandyT]

I will try to make a command line stealth mode part of this release.

RandyT

[ckenney11]

I am running the atomarcade.net encoder and it can run under Linux.  It can't be programmed under Linux but you could program it from DOS or Windows and then put it into your arcade because it DOES retain it's programming after power down.  Plus it has the trackball interface built in.  I haven't experienced any problems playing games and missing inputs.   

[RandyT]

I am running the atomarcade.net encoder and it can run under Linux.  It can't be programmed under Linux but you could program it from DOS or Windows and then put it into your arcade because it DOES retain it's programming after power down.  Plus it has the trackball interface built in.  I haven't experienced any problems playing games and missing inputs.   

You never responded on the simultaneous keypress situation with your encoder from this thread.

It could be a real issue to people who play fighting games with more than one player.  Could you give us an update on that please?

Thanks,
RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

You never responded on the simultaneous keypress situation with your encoder from this thread.

It could be a real issue to people who play fighting games with more than one player.  Could you give us an update on that please?

Thanks,
RandyT

However, the six keys plus modifiers limitation on the AtomArcade was pretty well confirmed by the manufacturer in this thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=48250.0

[ckenney11]

You never responded on the simultaneous keypress situation with your encoder from this thread.

It could be a real issue to people who play fighting games with more than one player.  Could you give us an update on that please?

Thanks,
RandyT

I'm sorry about that, I wasn't intentionally ignoring you.  I new baby girl will keep you busy!    I did get a chance to test it and you are right that it does send only six inputs at a time, but it does store every key input that is pressed in order that they are pressed, then sends the keys that didn't get sent the first time when an input is available like when you release a button.  I know that you have concerns about the fighting games but my brother and I have been playing them like crazy and we don't notice any problems not recognizing the special moves and such.  Now maybe we just don't know all of them or how to use them all but we have a blast anyways!  Not to take anything away from the IPac or the KeyWiz by any means they are both great encoders!  Just trying to give another option to everyone.   

[Tiger-Heli]

Six simultaneous keypresses is a real limitation for fighting games.  Many of these have 3 and four button combo moves and require precise timing.

Move Player 1 diagonally, that's two keypresses.  Move Player 2 diagonally at the same time, that's 4.  Now you can only press two more buttons between the two players or something will get lost.

The fact that MAME uses Ctrl, Alt, and Shift keys for Buttons 1, 2, and 4 actually helps you out here as they effectively "don't count", but you are still probably missing some button presses and moves, whether you realize it or not.

And timing is important in a lot of arcade games.  The fact that the encoder records my "FIRE" button press and then sends my shot (think Space Invaders) just after the invader moves out of the line of fire doesn't help me and actually is a disadvantage to me.  (And yes, I realize that I couldn't press six buttons in a game of Space Invaders, but the principal applies to any fighter or 2-player Shuum'p with more than one button.)

[ckenney11]

Six simultaneous keypresses is a real limitation for fighting games.  Many of these have 3 and four button combo moves and require precise timing.

Move Player 1 diagonally, that's two keypresses.  Move Player 2 diagonally at the same time, that's 4.  Now you can only press two more buttons between the two players or something will get lost.

The fact that MAME uses Ctrl, Alt, and Shift keys for Buttons 1, 2, and 4 actually helps you out here as they effectively "don't count", but you are still probably missing some button presses and moves, whether you realize it or not.

And timing is important in a lot of arcade games.  The fact that the encoder records my "FIRE" button press and then sends my shot (think Space Invaders) just after the invader moves out of the line of fire doesn't help me and actually is a disadvantage to me.  (And yes, I realize that I couldn't press six buttons in a game of Space Invaders, but the principal applies to any fighter or 2-player Shuum'p with more than one button.)

I do agree with what you say about the fighting games and the limitations and such.  And like I said I probably just don't realize that I'm missing keys for the special combos moves, but it is still fun to play.  I'm not competing for anything, just reliving my childhood and that is good enough for me.

As far as timing goes I don't know of any games that would require more than six inputs for a precise timing event to occur.  If you are like me in space invaders I just hit the fire button like crazy anyways!    Also I had mentioned the input limitation to the company that created this and he said that he had not heard of it being a concern.  So if any of you would like you go to atomarcade.net and email him about your concerns of wanting more inputs.  He had said that if enough people were interested he would consider redesigning it to take more inputs at a time.  I just think the more people that we have making parts for home arcades the better, it breeds new ideas and innovations!

[Havok]

I think the point Tiger-Heli is making is that 6 keypresses as a limit if very limiting, especially when you put two simultaneous players in the mix, using a joystick.

You are basically limiting two  fighters to one joystick move and one or two buttons at a time. Granted, the timing for this to happen is in the millisecond range, but if you have two button mashers - they will conflict.

Many of the special moves in fighters involve multiple joystick and button actions, and if you are both trying this you may run into problems.

As far as the buffer is concerned, perhaps that is enough to overcome any issues encountered with the limit. You should send an eval unit over to Kev at Retroblast to do a review...

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm not trying to start a flame war here!!!

If you are like me in space invaders I just hit the fire button like crazy anyways! 

That works until you end up with one or two invaders left.  Then you have to time your shots carefully since you can't send another one until the current shot clears.  That's what I meant about a disadvantage.

Also I had mentioned the input limitation to the company that created this and he said that he had not heard of it being a concern.  So if any of you would like you go to atomarcade.net and email him about your concerns of wanting more inputs.  He had said that if enough people were interested he would consider redesigning it to take more inputs at a time.

Many people, including Kev in the original RetroBlast review, didn't realize that the TOKN KB16 generated ghosting, or that the AC-350 suffers from keyblocking.  Just because you can still play games with it and not notice the error, doesn't mean that it is working properly and accurately.

But I think I've made my main points.

[horseboy]

I'm not trying to start a flame war here!!!

If you are like me in space invaders I just hit the fire button like crazy anyways! 

That works until you end up with one or two invaders left.  Then you have to time your shots carefully since you can't send another one until the current shot clears.  That's what I meant about a disadvantage.

I understand how 6 keypresses can be an issue in fighters and such, but I don't see how it could be a problem in Space Invaders. Just because there are multiple shots on the screen doesn't mean that they each count as a keypress here, does it? I was considering getting on of those for a single player cab. I thought that 6 keypresses wouldn't be an issue in 1 player. What am I missing here.

[ckenney11]

No I'm not trying to start anything either, just stating what I know and how I use the encoder that I have. 

As far as the ghosting and keyblocking, Ray at atomarcade assured me that all inputs were stored and then sent to the PC in the next available slot.  And that there was no ghosting involved. 

As far as the combos go in fighting games, don't they look at a sequence of keypresses and not simultaneous keypresses?  Or is it a little of both,  I can't remember for sure.

[Tiger-Heli]

What am I missing here.

I think you missed where I said:
" (And yes, I realize that I couldn't press six buttons in a game of Space Invaders, but the principal applies to any fighter or 2-player Shuum'p with more than one button.)"

[Tiger-Heli]

As far as the combos go in fighting games, don't they look at a sequence of keypresses and not simultaneous keypresses?  Or is it a little of both,  I can't remember for sure.

I actually discovered pretty early that I lacked the co-ordination for any game with more than two buttons (Time Pilot, Galaga, PacMan, BattleZone, etc. were fine), but I'm pretty sure most fighters want simultaneous keypresses for certain types of attacks.

[ckenney11]

I actually discovered pretty early that I lacked the co-ordination for any game with more than two buttons (Time Pilot, Galaga, PacMan, BattleZone, etc. were fine), but I'm pretty sure most fighters want simultaneous keypresses for certain types of attacks.

That is the way I am too, so I guess that may be why I don't notice if the combos are working or not.

[horseboy]

What am I missing here.

I think you missed where I said:
" (And yes, I realize that I couldn't press six buttons in a game of Space Invaders, but the principal applies to any fighter or 2-player Shuum'p with more than one button.)"

Ah, yes. I didn't put the 2 posts together.

[RandyT]

As far as the ghosting and keyblocking, Ray at atomarcade assured me that all inputs were stored and then sent to the PC in the next available slot.  And that there was no ghosting involved. 

This will induce lag.  Lag is bad in any gaming control, but devastating in a fighter.  Timing for the moves is critical.  There was a bit of an uproar over the encoder used in a certain pre-built control panel which was so slow, it could not reliably pull off a number of special moves in the fighters.  It has apparently been fixed, but it made things rough for those affected by it at the time.

As far as the combos go in fighting games, don't they look at a sequence of keypresses and not simultaneous keypresses?  Or is it a little of both,  I can't remember for sure.

Combos are different beasts than special moves, although you might not be able to pull off the combo if your (or the encoders) timing is poor.  Combos wouldn't automatically be affected, but certainly could be.

I know not everyone shares my penchant for high-speed / accuracy over questionably valuable frills / convenience.  But there are a good percentage of players out there who will be negatively impacted by poorly or marginally performing devices.  Many individuals (maybe even some of the more ardent types) built their panels just for fighters.  To recommend one of these devices known to have problems, without making a statement as to its shortcomings or intended use, is somewhat unfair to the individual who will quite possibly waste their money by purchasing it.

Just my opinion. 

RandyT

[ckenney11]

You're right RandyT, if you are building a Fighter Only/Primarily cabinet then the atomarcade.net encoder may not be the best fit.  But for an all purpose 1 or 2 player cabinet this one would work just fine.  Again I'm not the best at fighter games but while playing with 2 players we have both been able to pull off special moves or combos at the same time (or what seemed like the same time).  Again, I love your products and contributions to the arcade community and by no means am I stating that the atomarcade.net encoder out performs, is better or anything then your product RandyT.  I was just saying that I am using this encoder for all games including PC games and have had no noticable problems.  Trimoor just asked for some different encoders and since that is the one I use (and am happy with it) and no one else mentioned it I thought that I would let him know of a different option.   

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm about ready to drop out of this thread as most of what I have to contribute has already been said but . . .

First off, I am not making this post just to support RandyT or be one of his fanboys, it's just that his is the product I have personal experience with.

That said - I used a standard keyboard for many years (with keyblocking and everything) and thought it performed just fine - until I replaced it with the KeyWiz and could tell how much faster the response time is.

You may or may not be able to tell the difference between the atomarcade and the KeyWiz, but until you have tried both, you may not know what you are missing. . .

Just my two cents.