New encoder on ebay

[Kremmit]

Check it out

[Tahnok]

Very interesting. Why does it say that it's only the printed circuit board? It does have the chip, right?

If it truly does what he claims, and does it well, this looks like a pretty darn good encoder, comparable to the mini-pac if you don't mind the soldering. I'm looking forward to hearing some feedback on this.

[RandyT]

If it truly does what he claims, and does it well, this looks like a pretty darn good encoder, comparable to the mini-pac if you don't mind the soldering. I'm looking forward to hearing some feedback on this.

USB keyboard technology.... Maybe ok, or maybe a real concern depending on the implementation.  If anyone does a rundown on it, be sure to pay attention to possible issues with simultaneous keypresses.

I haven't seen one of these, so I don't know how it handles that limitation or if it even attempts to.  But it's something that should be considered just in case.

RandyT

[Tahnok]

If it truly does what he claims, and does it well, this looks like a pretty darn good encoder, comparable to the mini-pac if you don't mind the soldering. I'm looking forward to hearing some feedback on this.

USB keyboard technology.... Maybe ok, or maybe a real concern depending on the implementation.  If anyone does a rundown on it, be sure to pay attention to possible issues with simultaneous keypresses.

I haven't seen one of these, so I don't know how it handles that limitation or if it even attempts to.  But it's something that should be considered just in case.

RandyT

Good point, I hadn't thought of that. I just sent him a question regarding this.

I may consider this regardless. It couldn't be any worse than the hacked keyboard I have in there right now. If I could get it cheap, that is (please tell me if any of you are planning on bidding, so we don't get in a war).

[Timoe]

If you bid, ask him if there are/will be more.

[RayB]

Looks like it would suck for Chad or anyone else who can't solder.

[Tahnok]

He came back yesterday. He says that there are no ghosting problems, it's not a matrix. He said though that the USB Keyboard HID report limitations apply when reporting keys, and referred my to usb.org. Any idea exactly what this means? I can't put any money towards this right now though.

[RandyT]

He said though that the USB Keyboard HID report limitations apply when reporting keys, and referred my to usb.org. Any idea exactly what this means?

It means that if you hacked a USB keyboard, generally considered a big no-no, you'd get the same thing.

6 keys at a time plus modifiers.

RandyT

[Tahnok]

Ah, thank you Randy. How does this compare to other encoders (such as yours, Randy). I'm assuming this isn't a problem that most encoders have (sorry, I don't have a lot of experience with encoders).

[Tiger-Heli]

Ah, thank you Randy. How does this compare to other encoders (such as yours, Randy). I'm assuming this isn't a problem that most encoders have (sorry, I don't have a lot of experience with encoders).

Compared to Randy's -

E-bay Linked encoder - 6 keys, plus Ctrl, Alt, or Shift
KeyWiz - 32 keys (which could be Ctrl, Alt, or Shift, or anything else), plus 24 "Shazaaam!"-ed keys which can be used for admin functions.

I-PAC/2 - (www.ultimarc.com) 28 inputs plus 27 "Shifted" keys for admin functions
I-PAC/4 - 56 inputs plus 2 banks of 27 "Shifted" keys for admin functions

More data on all encoders than you would want in a lifetime: http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm

[Grasshopper]

He came back yesterday. He says that there are no ghosting problems, it's not a matrix. He said though that the USB Keyboard HID report limitations apply when reporting keys, and referred my to usb.org. Any idea exactly what this means? I can't put any money towards this right now though.

It would be nice if somebody knowledgeable and independent (i.e. not selling an encoder, I don't want this turning into a Randy vs Andy thread) could sort this issue out once and for all.

Andy once said the Ipac could support up to about 15 simultaneous keypresses in USB mode (although the Ipac has been updated since I read this comment so it might be out of date). Whilst 15 simultaneous inputs is plenty for a two player panel it bothers me a bit that Andy was unable to provide an exact number. Why the ambiguity? Also, I'm wondering whether this limitation is built into the Ipac itself, Windows' implementation of USB, the USB specification, or a combination of the three?

[Havok]

Sounds like it's not quite as good as Randy's KeyWiz, but a step up from a keyboard hack. Hopefully someone here will pick it up and do a review...

[Tiger-Heli]

Sounds like it's not quite as good as Randy's KeyWiz, but a step up from a keyboard hack. Hopefully someone here will pick it up and do a review...

True, since it is programmable (forgot to mention that the KeyWiz and I-PAC's are as well).  The six simultaneous keypress limitation is a big issue, though.

[Tiger-Heli]

He came back yesterday. He says that there are no ghosting problems, it's not a matrix. He said though that the USB Keyboard HID report limitations apply when reporting keys, and referred my to usb.org. Any idea exactly what this means? I can't put any money towards this right now though.

It would be nice if somebody knowledgeable and independent (i.e. not selling an encoder, I don't want this turning into a Randy vs Andy thread) could sort this issue out once and for all.

Please - No new Randy vs. Andy threads - (Although it has been a while - I can supply the popcorn this time

[AndyWarne]

I don't think this will turn into an Andy Vs Randy thread as I am going to agree with him!
It is true that if this new board is based on a standard reference design for a keyboard type device, it will suffer the 6 key plus modifiers limit as Randy says. Yes this is not enough as two diagonally-pressed joysticks is 4 presses for a start.
One of the very first design aims for the I-PAC was to overcome this limit. Grasshopper has the correct figure, but there is always some ambiguity in the limit because the number increases (above 15) for each of the modifier keys in use (ctrl, alt, shift, rctl, ralt, rshift).
The Mini-PAC, I-PAC 2 and I-PAC 4 each use three different techniques in different combinations to increase the key limit. Just a bit of thinking out of the box does it.
Andy W

[Tiger-Heli]

I don't think this will turn into an Andy Vs Randy thread as I am going to agree with him!
It is true that if this new board is based on a standard reference design for a keyboard type device, it will suffer the 6 key plus modifiers limit as Randy says. Yes this is not enough as two diagonally-pressed joysticks is 4 presses for a start.
One of the very first design aims for the I-PAC was to overcome this limit. Grasshopper has the correct figure, but there is always some ambiguity in the limit because the number increases (above 15) for each of the modifier keys in use (ctrl, alt, shift, rctl, ralt, rshift).
The Mini-PAC, I-PAC 2 and I-PAC 4 each use three different techniques in different combinations to increase the key limit. Just a bit of thinking out of the box does it.
Andy W

This is the first I have heard that LCtrl, and RCtrl were treated differently as modifiers.

Also, you are saying that Grasshopper has the correct number at 15, but my numbers of 14, 16, and 22 came directly from your E-mail of 8Sep03, which I will not quote here without your permission.

I would like to ensure that I have accurate data on my page regarding your products, though.

[Hoopz]

Please - No new Randy vs. Andy threads - (Although it has been a while - I can supply the popcorn this time

[Tiger-Heli]

Please - No new Randy vs. Andy threads - (Although it has been a while - I can supply the popcorn this time

[Grasshopper]

Andy has already contacted me by E-mail so we can resolve the discrepancies.

I'm curious to know the explanation.

[Tiger-Heli]

Basically, we came to a conclusion of what he said in Reply #14.

[Grasshopper]

Basically, we came to a conclusion of what he said in Reply #14.

OK. So basically any model of Ipac will accept at least 15 simultaneous keypresses in USB mode. Is that correct?

Also, are the maximum and minimum limits (which depend upon how many modifier keys are being used) the same for each model of Ipac? And what are the max and min limits?

Thanks

[Tiger-Heli]

All I know is E-mail from 8 Sep 03:

   So, is the limit 14 or 16 inputs?
   
   There have been many variations here, which is one reason I don't really mention a limit. The first version was 14 plus any modifiers. Then I increased it to 22 plus modifiers. It then went back down to 16 because I needed some buffer space for something else. I am thinking about increasing it again to 28 simply so that I can then state that there is no limit! As you mention, it does not really affect gameplay.

E-mail(s) from yesterday:

Actually the figure of 16 still stands. In that figure I included one extra in the assumption that one modifier would always be used. I suppose this was not an entirely correct assumption but in general more than one modifier is used particularly if the MAME default keys are in use.

For the record the modifiers are:

Right
GUI

Right
Alt

Right
Shift

Right
Ctrl

Left
GUI

Left
Alt

Left
Shift

Left
Ctrl

Each of these is recognised in addition to the other 6 in a normal keyboard, and in addition to 15 on the I-PAC. All modifiers are sent independently so all can be recognised.
I really dont want that thread to turn into an Andy Vs Randy or Andy Vs anyone else for that matter!

Cheers

Andy

That wording sounds fine.

Regards

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Tiger-Heli
Sent: 11 January 2006 15:14
To: Andy Warne
Subject: RE: Encoder pages


 The figure you sent in 2003 was 14 or 16 or 22 and you said you might increase it to 28 just to be done with it.

[RandyT]

I wouldn't think there should be a lot of ambiguity about this particular specification on any encoder.  It only takes 1(!) individual to do the test and you'll have your answer first hand.

It's simple.  Just hook up all of the inputs (defined as keys as you are likely to use) to one side of the button and Ground to the other.  Press it while in a utility like Ghost key and watch what happens.  Be sure to push it a few times, but not too fast.  That's a lot of data to jam down the port at once.  You'll also want to see what's happening.

For a little extra fun, selectively disconnect a wire or two at a time to make sure that the encoder is behaving the way you expect it to.  Sometimes problems get masked if all of a ports pins or a large chunk of a matrix are activated at once.

BTW, if anyone wants to try this with a KeyWiz, leave the P1 UP input disconnected.  You can only do 31 keypresses at a time without activating the Shazaaam! feature.  If it was necessary to have all 32 down at once, a special version could be supplied without this limitation.

The GP-Wiz USB encoders could do all 32, but Windows wouldn't know what to do with a joystick pushed in all 4 directions at the same time  .  I have, however, designed a "stick-less" version where all 32 inputs could be active at once.  But it only works on Windows 2000 and up.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

I wouldn't think there should be a lot of ambiguity about this particular specification on any encoder.

[RandyT]

I wouldn't think there should be a lot of ambiguity about this particular specification on any encoder.  It only takes 1(!) individual to do the test and you'll have your answer first hand.

The ambiguity comes from the first E-mail implying that the firmware limit was changed at some point.

I guess my point was that an individual to whom this information is of interest need only conduct the simple test on their encoder and share their findings

RandyT

[2600]

I guess my point was that an individual to whom this information is of interest need only conduct the simple test on their encoder and share their findings

RandyT

Is this your first time here? 

Also, PM sent.