Suzo Inductive Sticks - exploded view

[specfire]

I got my Suzo Inductives from TNT Amusements a few weeks ago and finally opened the parcel today.  I took apart the joystick and snapped some photos. 

First off, it is intended to be bottom mounted (which I wanted) but does NOT fit in a standard joystick hole (which I didn't know).  The mounting plate has a "raised disk" of plastic that sits in the joystick hole in lieu of a dust washer.  This disk is just a bit larger than the joystick handle which means, unlike Happ sticks, you don't have to take off the handle to mount the sticks (as long as you have the required bigger hole.)  I didn't know this and so proceded to take the joystick apart to under mount it, only to discover that the mounting plate would not mount flush because of the aforementioned "raised disk."

The joystick does not use an e-clip, but instead uses a much more difficult to remove retaining clip for which you must have a special tool to remove.

The restrictor has been described as an octagonal restrictor which is true after a fashion.  It is more like a round restrictor with plastic "bumps."  This is the only aspect of the stick that I really don't like.  Doing a round sweep of the joystick feels like travelling down a cobblestone road on roller skates, very bumpy.  I think I am going to sand them down for a more round restriction.

As far as the appearance of the joystick handle itself, I like it a lot.  It is very comfortable.  A great compromise in comfort and grip between the bat-top style and ball-top style.  I think I am going to paint the ball itself and mask-off the black plastic shaft in order to get a red ball top with a black plastic shaft.  I need to determine what kind of plastic it is made from first before I choose the type of paint.

As far as how it works, I posted in Kowal's MOD thread here: MOD: Suzo Universal Inductive

Well, onto the photos:

[Level42]

The joystick does not use an e-clip, but instead uses a much more difficult to remove retaining clip for which you must have a special tool to remove.

Well, personaly I think Suzo's ring is a lot easier to remove, but yes you need the tool.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=41571.0

The restrictor has been described as an octagonal restrictor which is true after a fashion.  It is more like a round restrictor with plastic "bumps."  This is the only aspect of the stick that I really don't like.  Doing a round sweep of the joystick feels like travelling down a cobblestone road on roller skates, very bumpy.  I think I am going to sand them down for a more round restriction.

True, but when do you actualy need to do a round sweep in a game ? These bumps were made to help you hit the 8 ways easier. But indeed, if you don't like it you can always sand them out. However, I've yet to play a game in which I find this a problem.

As far as the appearance of the joystick handle itself, I like it a lot.  It is very comfortable.  A great compromise in comfort and grip between the bat-top style and ball-top style.

Ahhhhh, finaly someone who agrees with me this handle is fine ! 

As far as how it works, I posted in Kowal's MOD thread here: MOD: Suzo Universal Inductive

Yup, that's how it works. I never said it was a magnet on the end of the shaft, but magnetic material (not being a magnet itself). Couldn't find the correct word for it, but indeed ferrite is it

You may have missed this previous thread about these fantastic joysticks.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=42066.0
Bless yourself you got a pair, they are getting rare quickly

The next thing we need to find out, are the two "ideal" resistance values for 4/8 way switching...
The way to do this is use a program that show the directions you hit correctly. Then you adjust the pot so it will never hit a diagonal. Then measure the pot's value (need to solder it out to measure correctly !), then put it back in, adjust for a good 8-way setting and measure again. Now we can either have two pots with a switch or maybe two fixed resistors with a switch to select between 4 and 8 way.
I'm gonna give this a try tonight when I'm back from work and will report.

[GrantJ]

Im my opinion these joysticks are a bit of a waste of time, having looked at one in the all they have done is remove the microswitch and replace it with a hall effect sensor. Ok they dont have as many moving parts but they havent been specificaly designed for the task.

I also under stand from a contact at Suzo that they are not produced any longer they are simply selling old stock.

[kowal]

This is a lot of better from microswitches. It was it been possible to move about one pixel on screen. Efficiency josyticks inductive or optical it is 30% better average in shumps: scraping bullets-Siki2, Guwange, Progear, ESPGaluda. difference is huge.

[specfire]

True, but when do you actually need to do a round sweep in a game ?

--Robotron.

all they have done is remove the microswitch and replace it with a hall effect sensor.

-- You are missing the big advantage of these joysticks.  Perfect 8-way action and a sensor that can determine exact joystick position, therefore it can be adjusted to respond as a very accurate 8-way or 4-way.

I also under stand from a contact at Suzo that they are not produced any longer

-- This is a shame because they seem to be a great stick.  Perhaps now that Happ and Suzo have merged, Happ demanded that this stick be discontinued to prevent perceived competition with the P360 (even though the P360 does not have the same functionality.)

[Level42]

Im my opinion these joysticks are a bit of a waste of time, having looked at one in the all they have done is remove the microswitch and replace it with a hall effect sensor. Ok they dont have as many moving parts but they havent been specificaly designed for the task.

I also under stand from a contact at Suzo that they are not produced any longer they are simply selling old stock.

I'm sorry, Grant, but I can only  at your comments. Calling this stick a waste of time shows that you obviously have never actualy played one. You've got to bear in mind that these sticks were developped I guess about 20 years ago. LOOOONG before the p360's.
Moving from mechanical switches to a non-moving parts stick which is fully electronic is anything but "all they've done", actualy it was a (courageous) breakthrough on the market.
One that never took flight regretfully. I think they made one mistake on this otherwise terrific product:
They didn't make/offer a more or less complete harness to make it easy to switch from a regular microswitch stick to this one. Operators didn't want to spend the time needed to make the new connections, especialy the +5V connection has probably been too much for most operators.
The operators may have only been appealed by the fact that there would be less maintanence (microswitch exchanging) but this was not enough compared to the extra hassle of wiring. The fact that these sticks play like a dream is of no concern to the operators, what do they care ? In fact, they don't WANT you to play longer on a game, because the stick is better....

What do you mean with "...but they havent been specificaly designed for the task." ?
The task was simple: better game play and less maintanance. I think they designed it for those tasks and they accomplished it completely.

Your contact is right. I am in the lucky position to be able to buy directly from Suzo's headquarters here in The Netherlands (yes it is a Duch company) and I talk a lot with them. Indeed they are no longer produced, I'd say they stopped production LONG ago. (The sticks are still bearing the old location of Suzo "Rotterdam" AND the box carries the logo that was in use at the late 80's/early 90's).
They moved  from Rotterdam to a sub-urb about 10 years ago.... They stopped for the reason I mentioned above AND because the traditional arcade games that use joysticks have almost completely vanished here in Europe over the last 10 years.
I've actualy bought the very last 38 mm. ball handle version from Suzo a couple of months ago. They only still have about 20 pcs. 32 mm. ball handle on stock, but I'd only use these on either a mini-cab or a cocktail.
The only other source I know it TNTamusments, I don't have a clue about how much they still have. But even so, does the fact that they are selling old stock mean that it is a bad product ? No way.

I've been using two of these sticks in my cab for months now, and I know I'd never want to trade them for a leaf, let alone a (yugh) microswitch stick....

So, please if you either don't know anything about the product (you haven't played them obviously) or have any arguments that make sense, refrain from posting untrue claims like these.....thanks

[u_rebelscum]

... having looked at one in the all they have done is remove the microswitch and replace it with a hall effect sensor.

Not that it's that important, but induction senses (name of joystick) is NOT the same as Hall Effect senses.  They do not use Hall Effect sensors (the coils are a dead give away, as well as other posts saying a magnet on the end of the stick is not needed, just plain steel).

Hall Effect is based on the strength of a magnetic field effecting the direction current flows perpendicular to the magnetic field, and thus the amount of current through each of two outputs.

Induction is a broader term, and have more to do with the moving or changing of the magnetic field (not the constant strength like Hall Effect) and the effect on the current or volts.

Anybody have a wiring schematic of this joystick?  All these posts got me wondering which induction property is being used.

[Grasshopper]

The amazing thing is how simple the circuit looks. I wonder whether someone like Andy or Randy could design a similar board that could be bolted onto a standard joystick in place of the microswitches.

[kowal]

This would can be designed how optical arrangement for SanwFlash. This looked identically how PCB microswitches for JLF-TPY8.

Flash
PCBmicroswitches
Flas does not be produced
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3082822&postcount=328
He if would be produced he would can sell Flash. Instead of from new to project inductive arrangement. In it working there are no larger differences. It inductive arrangement was it been possible was however to regulate at will. And then huge advantage.
P360 be executed fatally. He has a lot of constructional defects. Flash would be for P360 and SUZO good alternative

[AndyWarne]

The amazing thing is how simple the circuit looks. I wonder whether someone like Andy or Randy could design a similar board that could be bolted onto a standard joystick in place of the microswitches.

Something like this maybe?

[kowal]

it looks wonderfully. J - stcik this excellent construction if would had round restrictor and arrangement optical or inductive he would be better from P360.
Say something more about this prototype. What has parameters. Original j - stick gets involved on 5,5 degree.  This if would was quicker about 4 degrees, this would be the best joystick.

[GrantJ]

Its nice to see a bit of passion when people talk about joysticks, its often an item which isn't put first when customising cabinets. The inductive stick are old and therefore it in my view doesn't do the job in to days cabinets, but life moves on. Having used the new stick shown above you I now know the difference and what a truly brilliant, simple and responsive joystick Andy has produced. 

Keep that passion burning we need to make more people aware of arcade gaming scene...It's never personal

[Hiub1]

Well, the P360 sticks started out as add-ons for regular Wico leaf joysticks. I have two in my cab, with brand new grommets, and I'll tell ya they are absolutely amazing for Robotron and any kind if shmups. It really wouldn't be hard to make a PCB to add on to a joystick, just a matter of what joystick to add it on to.

[specfire]

Something like this maybe?

Major tease; how about some details....please....oh come on....crap, I hate waiting 

[kowal]

It really wouldn't be hard to make a PCB to add on to a joystick, just a matter of what joystick to add it on to.

J - stick would be good as base. Japanese sticks have not classic pivot (pyramid), only hemispheres. This causes that joystick centres to center always symetric. This acts how wedge (E-stick is good too). All joysticks American/europen may asymmetric throw (7 degrees  in left-and 8 degrees  in right), in some joysticks this it is irritating (P360 7deg. left-9deg. right). It the only defect of Japanese joysticks this the late engagement

[2600]

Something like this maybe?

That wouldn't be the analog hybrid that you've mentioned before would it? 

And it connects directly to USB or are you just borrowing the connector?

Looks nice either way.

[Grasshopper]

The inductive stick are old and therefore it in my view doesn't do the job in to days cabinets, but life moves on.

I don't see what age has to do with it. It's either a good stick or it isn't. A lot of people rave about the Wico leafs and they're even older.

I personally prefer the feel of the Suzo sticks to the modern Japanese style which have too light a spring for my taste. That being said, I'm still pretty excited about the new Ultimarc stick especially if it's analogue and sold at a reasonable price. But I also hope that Andy designs his board (and replacement shaft?) in such a way that it can be used on a range of different joysticks.

[Level42]

... having looked at one in the all they have done is remove the microswitch and replace it with a hall effect sensor.

Not that it's that important, but induction senses (name of joystick) is NOT the same as Hall Effect senses.  They do not use Hall Effect sensors (the coils are a dead give away, as well as other posts saying a magnet on the end of the stick is not needed, just plain steel).

Hall Effect is based on the strength of a magnetic field effecting the direction current flows perpendicular to the magnetic field, and thus the amount of current through each of two outputs.

Induction is a broader term, and have more to do with the moving or changing of the magnetic field (not the constant strength like Hall Effect) and the effect on the current or volts.

Anybody have a wiring schematic of this joystick?  All these posts got me wondering which induction property is being used.

Yep, absolutely right, but I didn't care about mentioning this because all other remarks were even less true....

Indeed, it's not a personal thing, but I just can't stand it when someone is making claims without any hands-on experience with the product.
The latest one is that the product is "old" so not interesting. Well, arcade gaming is old, in fact it's ancient compared to the inductive. Microswitch and leaf joysticks are tens of years older than the inductive. And even so, if it's good, it's good.
This is the last thing I said about that.....

About the schematics........hold your breath and cross your fingers.......I'm working on it...

Andy....that looks really promising ! Stop teasing us

[specfire]

I edited the wiki on these sticks but my image_fu is weak.  I don't know how to put the image of the restrictor off to the side like all of the other (nicer looking) pics.

Anyone care to help me out?  My thanks if you can.

----EDIT: fixed the image placement problem and added more info.  Hopefully it will be useful.----

spec

[Level42]

Damn, Suzo don't have the schematics anymore (or don't want to give them of course) 

[specfire]

The schematics are really quite simple, someday I will sit down and trace/map it out.  What makes these schematics complex are the coils themselves since they are proximity dependant.  Physical placement of the components doesn't make any difference on the PCB of most common/simple circuits (the exception is really high freqency stuff where timing is an issue such as a PC motherboard.)   In this case though, it makes a big difference.

[Level42]

Indeed, since all electronics are "old fashioned" discrete compontents ( I mean no SMD) it should be easy to do some reverse engineering and figure it out.

Yeah the coil on the PCB is pretty clever, although not a new idea. I'm just interested in the workings of the whole thing, not trying to copy it

[destructor]

Something like this maybe?

Excellent Andy
When it will be available in your shop? I have some money prepared for shopping on Ultimarc.
Good if this stick will had throw in range 4-5 degrees. J-Stik (and other Sanwa sticks too) have a bit too long throw for 8-way games, air-shooters especially.

[muzland]

A bit off topic guys, but has anyone got around to modifying these joysticks using 2 pots and a toggle switch for ease of swapping between 4 and 8 way.

I am going to have a bash myself but could do with knowing the size of pots to order.

Andy: Great looking stick! Will this be switchable in software from 4/8 way? That would be cool.

Cheers
Muzland

[Grasshopper]

Indeed, since all electronics are "old fashioned" discrete compontents ( I mean no SMD) it should be easy to do some reverse engineering and figure it out.

Yeah the coil on the PCB is pretty clever, although not a new idea. I'm just interested in the workings of the whole thing, not trying to copy it

I'm wondering whether it would be possible to tap into part of the circuit to get an analogue signal. That would open up all sorts of possibilities.

[Level42]

Hah, yes.....hadn't thought of that. There must be 4 analogue signals coming from the coils. The pot meters determine the "trigger" level for the directions (on-off) so the IC's may be simply schmitt triggers or at least including them. I'll check what IC's are in it.

The stick is very easy to open, so you can see what size potmeter you need easily. I've been wanting to do the switch trick for montsh, but haven't found the time to get the right resistance values for 4/8 way.

[Broken]

Im my opinion these joysticks are a bit of a waste of time, having looked at one in the all they have done is remove the microswitch and replace it with a hall effect sensor. Ok they dont have as many moving parts but they havent been specificaly designed for the task.

I also under stand from a contact at Suzo that they are not produced any longer they are simply selling old stock.

I'm sorry, Grant, but I can only  at your comments. Calling this stick a waste of time shows that you obviously have never actualy played one. You've got to bear in mind that these sticks were developped I guess about 20 years ago. LOOOONG before the p360's.
Moving from mechanical switches to a non-moving parts stick which is fully electronic is anything but "all they've done", actualy it was a (courageous) breakthrough on the market.
One that never took flight regretfully. I think they made one mistake on this otherwise terrific product:
They didn't make/offer a more or less complete harness to make it easy to switch from a regular microswitch stick to this one. Operators didn't want to spend the time needed to make the new connections, especialy the +5V connection has probably been too much for most operators.
The operators may have only been appealed by the fact that there would be less maintanence (microswitch exchanging) but this was not enough compared to the extra hassle of wiring. The fact that these sticks play like a dream is of no concern to the operators, what do they care ? In fact, they don't WANT you to play longer on a game, because the stick is better....

What do you mean with "...but they havent been specificaly designed for the task." ?
The task was simple: better game play and less maintanance. I think they designed it for those tasks and they accomplished it completely.

Your contact is right. I am in the lucky position to be able to buy directly from Suzo's headquarters here in The Netherlands (yes it is a Duch company) and I talk a lot with them. Indeed they are no longer produced, I'd say they stopped production LONG ago. (The sticks are still bearing the old location of Suzo "Rotterdam" AND the box carries the logo that was in use at the late 80's/early 90's).
They moved  from Rotterdam to a sub-urb about 10 years ago.... They stopped for the reason I mentioned above AND because the traditional arcade games that use joysticks have almost completely vanished here in Europe over the last 10 years.
I've actualy bought the very last 38 mm. ball handle version from Suzo a couple of months ago. They only still have about 20 pcs. 32 mm. ball handle on stock, but I'd only use these on either a mini-cab or a cocktail.
The only other source I know it TNTamusments, I don't have a clue about how much they still have. But even so, does the fact that they are selling old stock mean that it is a bad product ? No way.

I've been using two of these sticks in my cab for months now, and I know I'd never want to trade them for a leaf, let alone a (yugh) microswitch stick....

So, please if you either don't know anything about the product (you haven't played them obviously) or have any arguments that make sense, refrain from posting untrue claims like these.....thanks

where can I get the 32mm balltop version?