Suzo Inductive Joysticks, the full story...

[Level42]

On the Buy/Sell/Trade section there's been some discusion about the Suzo Inductive Joysticks. These are (or should we say: were) the answer (or were Suzo first ?) to Happ's P360. Although they use completely different techniques, they are simular in that they have no moving parts inside (except the shaft of course) and they require 5V to operate. And both put out "regular" contact type signals.

Since I grew up with a Suzo joystick (don't get this wrong ), and played many in arcades, I love them. I think there's no better stick. I have a home version that uses leafs and I still play it for my Atari's today...the more recent sticks use microswitches (both home and arcade) and I can't stand the sound of them, nor do I like the "pressure point" of them...

So these inductives should be the ideal stick for me. I picked up 2 of them yesterday, here are the first impressions:

Pic1: the box. Very old suzo logo, also, it says Suzo Rotterdam all over, they moved from there several years ago, so I guess this is not exactly something brand new....
But how about that promo-line: "A Suzo stick is a joy forever...". Now that's what I call a promo line, this might end up on my cab 

Pic2: the bottom. Shiny like a mirror so very hard for my simple autofocus digi-cam to focus...Anyway: the joystick sides are indicated with letters ABCD and the corresponding contacts on the connector are also indicated. THis allows the stick to be placed like you wish to (so A can be either top or bottom).
To the lower left is the pot-meter. Apparantly (strangely) this seems to double as 4/8 way selector. Very interesting how this will work. Anyway, it instantly made me think of movind this Pot to behind my CP and putting a nice knob on it !

The feel of the stick is indeed very Suzo. Only 5 degree angle, very short travel and throw. It's a bit weird to reach the end of the movement without hearing the click. The stick doesn't "bounce" back a couple of times, it rather just seemt to return immediatly to it's center without any "spring-like" action.

When you circle the stick, you can feel that there are "marks" for the 8 directions, so you feel some small transitions between the positions. The wiring is connected through a single connector. So 1 "common" for both operating power and contacts. Suzo indicates the power must be between 4,75 and 5,25 volts, so PC powering it might be a good idea.

[Level42]

Opening the bottom is very easy, and then we see the electronics. All descrete parts, no SMD or something. You can clearly see the "coils" printed on the PCB that pick up the magnetic field ( I guess). On the shaft you see the magnet (or magnetic material ?) Just two simple IC's inside and a couple of pots that are sealed.

Again "Suzo Rotterdam" on the PCB...the city I was born,makes me proud HAHAHA

The bad news is that the shaft end is very small (so to fit the magnet) and nothing like the shaft of the regular 500 series Suzo sticks. This pretty much rules out replacing the shaft with something fancy...

Don't have time to connect it and give it a test-drive today....but will ASAP and report here.

[Grasshopper]

I'm slightly disappointed that the handles cannot be swapped with the ordinary series 500 handles. I suppose that means you can have these joysticks in any colour you want as long as it's black.

Also, from your picture it appears that the joystick doesn't have a physical restrictor for 4 way mode. They appear to work in a similar way to the Happ Supers. So you have a more or less circular zone of movement and in 4-way mode you adjust the sensitivity to a point where the diagonal areas are outside the restrictor's zone.

I think these sticks would become infinitely more useful if they could be hacked into true analogue joysticks. You could then through software divide the joystick's circle of movement into 4 equal slices and have something that is much closer to a genuine 4-way joystick.

They are probably excellent 8-way sticks (maybe the best) but on the basis of what you've said so far not the ultimate 4/8 way solution I was hoping for.

Anyway I await your findings.

[Level42]

OK first test runs done.

FIrst had to wire up the thing...because it uses a single connector and my Jamma harness of couse has the well-known connectors. I decided to use some cat-5 cabling as this would nicely fit in the connector of the joystick. I didn't want to cut my  original Jamma harness so I soldered male connectors to the other side of the wires for the direction and the common.
I use +5V (and only that wire) from a regular disk drive power connector from my PC, since I discovered that there's no +5V coming from my cab power supply...

It's all not very well done, and surely not definitive, but it works.

OK, remove the old 500 and put in the inductive in my metal CP.

Then the exciting part, connecting it....I had the PC running in AdvanceMenu. first connected grnd, then +5V and then "up". Pushed the stick up and, yest it works Al directions connected and tested fine.

I haven't messed with the pot-meter so far. Fire up Donkey Kong as this is a 4-way game. Played it and, wow this feels great. No irritating clicks, very short throw and travle, the stick really seems to do what I want, even if it's not completely in either 4 or 8 way mode....
Then, Mario seems to jump either too late, or sometimes he jumps when I'm not pressing any buttons....this scares and puzzles me a bit...
Then I open the CP and discover that the cat-5 cable going to the joystick connector is pressing down on my #1 button leaf ;D So that was a very stupid mistake to make, I almost feared the inductive had some strange effect on the J-pac....but not so. Re-routed the cable a bit and now it works fine.

Then a joystick only game, my fav. Ms. Pac Man. Not too bad, not too bad at all. But you do have to "remember" to use it 4 ways only. Every now and then it does something unpredictable when moving near diagonals.

OK a diagonal game: 1942.............is this stick great ? No. Is this stick good ? No. This stick is FANTASTIC !!!! Can't remember moving so swiftly around the screen. Hitting diagonals is a breeze compared to having to push two microswitches to action. No problems with the direction markings. Yes you feel them, no they're in no way annoying. In fact they help to "know" where you're going....

OK, another fav. 2-way only....Galaxian. Excellent, great fantastic.....dodging thos e missiles is a breeze, moving from left to right (or vice versa) takes a fraction of a second.

OK, so the first tests are positive. Gonna try tomorrow to adjust the pot. I may be able to find a setting where it's not needed to switch between 4 and 8 way....I think it's possible with this stick....

Sure it doesn;t have a true mechanical restriction. If you cannot live without that,  this stick is not yours...but otherwise, it's very promissing.....

And I really like the possible hack of moving the pot-meter to the CP (or under the CP), making it possible to switch between 4-8 ways electronicaly/adjust the settings per game.....

The only minor problem is that I feel the stick is a little small and tiny with it's 32 mm ball. My 500 has a 38 mm ball handle, that's also a bit longer. Maybe becauser I'm just use to that now.....
The 32 mm handle is almost identical to the Suzo home stick (Competition Pro).

I think I am going to love these baby's......but we needs more testing to do....pics and more report later...

[Grasshopper]

Can you explain how the magnet attaches to the shaft. I'm wondering how easy it would be to hack another handle to fit this joystick.

[Level42]

From the looks of it, it's glued on somehow. Maybe it will be possible to make the end of a regular 10 mm shaft smaller. But then also an extra groove for the E-clip is needed. The E-clip is "above" the magnet on the shaft.

Also, I don't really dare to try and remove the PCB. It looks like the plastic holder (the one in which the magnet travels) is glued to the pcb somehow....and I'm not sure how the PCB is mounted elsewhere....will give it a try though....
I can see screws underneath the PCB. That holds the entire inducive ass. to the rest of the joystick base.

[JoyMonkey]

Good lord! These are the same joysticks that I man-handled as a child!
Time to remove my clickety-click microswitch Suzo's and find a pair of these I think...

[Level42]

You just found them....I can get them for you. Price is way below regular P360 price !
But have to send from Europe. PM me if you're interested.

[JoyMonkey]

For people in the US, it might be easier to buy them from TNT Amusements. They seem to have a lot of NOS ones and I'm sure shipping will be a lot less. Here's one on eBay being sold by them.

[Level42]

That's a very good price indeed....someone lost money along the line, no doubt....nice to read that they are indeed very good

[markb]

I picked up a Suzo inductive on eBay a few months ago for

[TOK]

I ordered 2 of these yesterday to give them a try. They were shipped out today, but I probably won't get them until after Labor Day.
I like the Happs Competitions I have in there, but figured I'd give the Suzo's a chance and see if I liked the feel better. They'll always be good for spares for another project if not.

I have to say I dislike the tapered shaft style. I'll take function over form any day, but they just look wierd. I'll post a report here after I try them out.

[Level42]

It just depends what you're used to. I've got the 32 mm handle version, and it's almost exactly the same as my first Suzo (which I bought way back for my Atari 2600).

So my "definition" of an arcade joystick is the Suzo style handle, also because here in Europe those were used most of the time for arcade games.

I personaly don't like the bat handles...it's all personal taste.

I hope you get the 38 mm handle though, for a cab, you need that size IMHO. I've got the 32 mm handle and that's a bit too small for a cab....unless you really play with your fingers....

Where did you order ?

I sure hope you're gonna like them, give them a serious try

[TOK]

I got them from TNT. They're actually local for me, but I had them shipped because I'm going to be busy this weekend. I was afraid they'd be gone by the time I got to the shop. Didn't notice which length I got.
If they're the shorties, I'll just top mount them in another cab. I've been stockpiling parts for a bartop, and all I need now is an IPAC.

[TOK]

My sticks arrived today. They are the longer 38mm handle. If anyone else is getting them, the part number is 29-0208-3 for the longer sticks.
The same part number, but ending in -2 is the 32mm handle.

Haven't mounted them yet (and might not for a bit honestly), but first impression of feel is that they have a very short throw. Similar throw distance to the Ultimarc T-Stik+. Resistance might be just a touch softer on the Suzo's the the feel is similar.
I like the slightly longer throw of the Happs. Think I'm going to put these in a project cab. I do like the feel of the ball and the stick feels quality overall.

[JCL]

TOK --

Did you get these from TNT off ebay or directly from them? I didn't see them on TNT's website and I don't see them on ebay.

[JoyMonkey]

My sticks arrived today. They are the longer 38mm handle. If anyone else is getting them, the part number is 29-0208-3 for the longer sticks.
The same part number, but ending in -2 is the 32mm handle.

AFAIK, the 32mm and 38mm refers to the diameter of the balltop, not the length of the stick.

[JoyMonkey]

TOK --
Did you get these from TNT off ebay or directly from them? I didn't see them on TNT's website and I don't see them on ebay.

Don't know about TOK, but I bought one in an eBay 'buy-it-now' frenzy, then I emailed them and asked if I could have another.
Here's their current eBay auction, they've got 9 left in this auction, but I'd guess that they've got a lot more than that in stock.

[JCL]

TOK --
Did you get these from TNT off ebay or directly from them? I didn't see them on TNT's website and I don't see them on ebay.

Don't know about TOK, but I bought one in an eBay 'buy-it-now' frenzy, then I emailed them and asked if I could have another.
Here's their current eBay auction, they've got 9 left in this auction, but I'd guess that they've got a lot more than that in stock.

Guess my ebay search skills are a bit off.

thanks

[TOK]

TOK --

Did you get these from TNT off ebay or directly from them? I didn't see them on TNT's website and I don't see them on ebay.

Both! 
Here is the ebay item number. 6205399922

[TOK]

My sticks arrived today. They are the longer 38mm handle. If anyone else is getting them, the part number is 29-0208-3 for the longer sticks.
The same part number, but ending in -2 is the 32mm handle.

AFAIK, the 32mm and 38mm refers to the diameter of the balltop, not the length of the stick.

Indeed. Thanks for the correction.
I'm happy to report I have big balls. 

[Level42]

Lucky you I have small balls (on the inductives of course). Indeed the 32/38 mm thing refers to the ball size, but the handle is also longer on the 38 mm (at least, when I compare them to my "regular" Suzo 500's).

So the feeling of throw on the 32 mm will even be shorter if you think the 38 already has a short throw...checking on monday if I can get the 38's still....Think it should be possible to replace the handles between the two. Maybe Suzo has some spare handles....?

I think the 32's were maybe targetted at cocktails ? They would be good on those I guess...

Still didn't have time to test the 4/8 way pot-meter Hopefully tomorrow.
Also didn't dare to remove the PCB, what do you guys think how it is mounted and can it be removed safely ? This also would make moving the pot-meter to the CP a lot easier, but it's still very possible from the top of course...

O and let me know how you connected the wires to the molex....I didn't have a proper tool for it so I carefully used a screwdriver, I know that's not the "right" way but didn't see another solution...
I didn't cut my wires (yet ?) but instead made a seperate "harness" with male connectors that fit to the regular microswitch terminals. I think they should have included a set like that with the joystick, or at least sell it seperatly since this makes converting a cab with these sticks a lot easier and would probably have made it more accepted with operators...from what I know from Suzo, it's not exactly a very populer item on their catalogue. The 38 is being phased out...and my guess is there will be no new 32's either especialy after the Happ merger....

[JCL]

Any new hacking on these?

How important is it to get the pot just right? Is fully one way 4-way and fully the other 8-way or is more tweaking needed?

It looks like that unsoldering the pot would be difficult, but I think it would be easy (from the pics) to solder in to the pot. By selecting a proper resistor in parallel, one should be able to use a switch+ resistor to switch between 4 and 8 way.

I think I've talked myself into buying a pair (of the joysticks, of course).

[Level42]

Haha, don't think you'll regret. Sorry, no no time yet...neither tomorrow, will give it a try tuesday and report. I think the pot should be turned either full way to go "completely"into 4 or 8 way. Maybe, there's a setting that will be usable for both...(halfway ?)  I left it in the position it came in (about 60% towards 8 ) and although possible to play DK and Pac Man, I did make occasional mistakes.

I think it will be quite possible to solder out the pot from the top (see pic) and move it to the CP. The alternative is what you say, simply a switch and a fixed resistor (or this pot in the max. setting) to select total 4 or 8 way....

More later....

[JoyMonkey]

Replacing the pot with a switch sounds like a good idea; it could then be controled easily by software through the parallel port. I haven't gotten mine yet (should have them tomorrow) and I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to play around with them.
It would be nice to be able to link the pots on two joysticks together, so you'd only have to turn one knob/push one button to switch both joysticks between 4 and 8 way.

[JCL]

Replacing the pot with a switch sounds like a good idea; it could then be controled easily by software through the parallel port. I haven't gotten mine yet (should have them tomorrow) and I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to play around with them.
It would be nice to be able to link the pots on two joysticks together, so you'd only have to turn one know/push one button to switch both joysticks between 4 and 8 way.

I think it could be done with 2 resistors (and these may be optional) and one double pole, single throw switch.

The resistors are needed if the pot isn't adjusted to be fully on and fully off.

The only issue I can think of is whether a very small signal from the inductive sensor is sent through the pot. If this is the case, then the joystick may become very susceptible to electrical noise if external wires/resistors/switches are added.

I've ordered a pair, so I'll probably get to experimenting in a week or two, depending on shipping and all my other projects and "honeydews".

[Grasshopper]

You could perhaps have two pots, one for 4-way and one for 8-way, and switch between them using a double pole single throw switch. You could then use the pots to tweak the 4 way and 8 way modes independently.

[JCL]

You could perhaps have two pots, one for 4-way and one for 8-way, and switch between them using a double pole single throw switch. You could then use the pots to tweak the 4 way and 8 way modes independently.

It should be simpler than that.

Leave the original pot, but solder to it. Adjust it to either the way that need the highest resistance. Then wire a pot in series with a switch, then wire these in parallel with the original pot. Switch in the parallel pot, then adjust for the other "way".

No desoldering needed, and at worst, a single switch and pot is needed (per joystick).

[Level42]

Mmm, yep interesting and simple solution. But maybe for some reason you might actualy want the full pot range ? Then moving the pot would be the only option.

About picking up noise: twist the wires and that will mostly always solve that problem.

[lustreking]

Also didn't dare to remove the PCB, what do you guys think how it is mounted and can it be removed safely ? This also would make moving the pot-meter to the CP a lot easier,

I just got one today from TNT Amusements.

[Grasshopper]

Is it possible to swap the restrictor plate, with the plate that comes with the Suzo 500s?

[Level42]

Also didn't dare to remove the PCB, what do you guys think how it is mounted and can it be removed safely ? This also would make moving the pot-meter to the CP a lot easier,

I just got one today from TNT Amusements.  I didn't get to play with it much, but it looks incredibly easy to remove the PCB.  After taking off the bottom cover, I think that the only thing holding in the PCB is the friction of the three posts going through it.

-S

Yeah ? Try it !

To grashopper: NO WAY. sorry...
the restrictors are on the end of the shaft on the 500's. That's where the electronic unit is on the inductives... The shaft ends in the part where the magnet is, that's it.

I tried it with the pot half way and this seemed to work very well for both 4 and 8 way play. I tried completely 4 way, and I had problems hitting the 4 directions at all !!!! Amazing....this is a bit weird. It was VERY unsensetive, not workable IMHO. So a switch might not do the trick....In complete 8 way it worked fine on 1942 but have to test some more.

[JCL]

lt --

What is the value for the pot?
Is 8 way fully "on or off"? ie. One setting of the pot is a short, the other is full resistance. Which is 8 way?

My set should be coming in a few days, so if you don't have this info handy, don't worry about it.

[JoyMonkey]

The PCB pops right out; that's why the three posts are angled.

[JCL]

Great pics. Can't wait to get mine and start hacking.

[JoyMonkey]

I just got a GP-Wiz and thought I'd try out the Suzo sticks (and eventually compare them to a 49-way in 4-way and 8-way mode).
So far the stick feels great. I haven't played around with the pot, but it's playing Donkey Kong and Pac-Man almost perfectly and I can hit diagonals fairly easily in 1942.

Here's a photo of the most ghetto test rig on the planet

[Level42]

Sorry, I've spent most time recently on installing my sound system in my cab...
(See: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=42798.0)

Haven't been done further work on the inductive. Great that the board comes out that easy, I didn't dare to do it
Yes the two resistor solution will probably be what I will end up with... I did have some mis hits with the standard setting the pot came in with Ms.Pac Man so I do want a switchable stick.

[JCL]

I've got these working and am experimenting with a very simple 4-8 way hack. These are nice sticks, much better than supers for the king of 8 way games I like at least. I don't have a good 4 way to compare them to.

More later.

[Level42]

Any news on this ? I'm getting ready to finish my cab so if anyone has some results, please post ! Thanks ! 

[JoyMonkey]

I'm going to put together another test CP next week (for testing out the LED Wiz) and I'll be using these joysticks in it. I'll see if I can get the LED Wiz to switch the sticks from 4-way to 8-way. Has anyone figured out what value resistors would be needed to replace the pot values for 4 and 8 way? Or is using a second pot wired to the existing pot the way to go?

Edit: After thinking about it a little, it's pretty obvious that a second pot is the way to go, so everything is tweakable. Now, what value pot...