I-PAC shift function vs. KeyWiz Shazaam Function for Howard C.

[Tiger-Heli]

(continued)

I agree with HC that IN PRACTICE there is not much difference between the KeyWiz and using a DEDICATED shift button on the I-PAC, other than I have 32 remaining inputs on the KeyWiz and only 27 on the I-PAC (and 27 is one input shy of a 4-player 3-button panel).

The Shazaam! button does not work the same and doesn't work the same as assigning multiple inputs in MAME.  For example,

The Shazaam! button works with another button on Key Down, the I-PAC shift function works on Key Release.  Also, we had all heard the horror stories of how pressing P1 Start and P2 Start at the same time ends a game with the I-PAC (and this happens more often if you just map 1&2 to UI EXIT in MAME, because this is sent immediately).  A shazaam! button eliminates this b/c it only sends the shifted input, and so there is no possibility of accidently sending a shift key by pressing the wrong key combination (there is no Shazaam function assigned to another button, which I could accidentally press in normal gameplay).

A further advantage of RandyT's design are the adapters mentioned above.  Using this method, for example, I can have all 32 KeyWiz buttons assigned to inputs.  Now I add a button for Coin1 and map it to Shazaam!-P1B2="5" (and the same theory applies for Coins 2 through 4, Start 1 through 4, Pause, and Escape).  The disadvantage is that when I insert a coin, the P1B2 action also occurs, so the P1 character jumps.  However, I have no extra buttons on my Panel and more importantly, I just press the Coin1 button to insert a coin, without having to remember "ok, now I want to put a coin in, so I need to press Shazaam! and then P1B2, because that's where my shift input is".

RandyT, please advise if I misunderstood how the adapters work.  

[RandyT]

\
 The disadvantage is that when I insert a coin, the P1B2 action also occurs, so the P1 character jumps.  However, I have no extra buttons on my Panel and more importantly, I just press the Coin1 button to insert a coin, without having to remember "ok, now I want to put a coin in, so I need to press Shazaam! and then P1B2, because that's where my shift input is".

RandyT, please advise if I misunderstood how the adapters work.  

You were close!  But the first line of the above paragraph is incorrect.

The only time this would send an additional keycode, is if you were trying to use one of your "special" buttons as a dual purpose button.  You could never have the scenario of P1 "jumping" as that function would not be assigned to a Shazaaam! keycode.   An example:

1)  You have your "P1Start" button wired as a "special" button, which means that it is shared with a normal input whose "Shazaaam!" keycode is ";"  You would also set up your application so that ";" performed the function you wanted associated with "P1Start".

2) Pressing this button by itself immediately sends ";", with no delays and no other keycodes.  Unless you are at the main screen with credits racked up, this will do nothing.  As this is an "odd" character, chances are next to nil that this will have any effect in an outside application either.

3) If you press another button, while holding this one down, the Shazaaam! keycode for the other button is sent immediately and on key down.

4) You can hit as many keys as you want while holding the "P1Start" button down to send as many Shazaaam! keycodes as you like.

5) In this manner, "P1Start" can take the place of a dedicated Shazaaam! button.  The only extra character that would ever be sent when used as described above would be the ";" character, which wouldn't do anything except in a very specific circumstance.

If you have separate "special" buttons for every extra feature you want to use, you could basically forget that the Shazaaam! even exists.  In other words, it works to do what you want it to, but you don't have to think about it .  No extra keycodes are sent when set up this way.

If I'm still not being clear on this, please let me know.  It's important that folks understand how this works and the benefits it provides   .

Randy

[Tiger-Heli]

I think I have it, and I think I see a problem:

My idea was, for example, to have P1B4-Shazaam! set up as COIN1="4", P4B4-Shazaam! Set up as Coin4="8", and have the Coin Buttons wired up as special buttons.

My incorrect assumption was that when I pressed the COIN1 Button, the KeyWiz would send LShift first and then 4.

If I understand correctly, pressing Coin1 will immediately send ONLY "4" (as desired), but if I press Coin1 and Player 4 simultaneously presses --BINGO! Either that, or I was attempting to say "before" but it was too many letters to type--, "8" (coin4) will be sent instead of P4B4.

This could be disastrous if one of my Shazaam buttons is mapped to Escape or Pause :-((

Do I have it right now?

[rampy]

Well.. FWIW I just ordered one.. and I will do a review.  I do not have an ipac to compare it to (just a sidewinder hack)... but I can be a reasonable test case for ease of installation, ease of use... compatibility, etc...

So... Randy quit posting messages and go process my order (just teasing) =P

Rampy

[RandyT]

I think I have it, and I think I see a problem:

My idea was, for example, to have P1B4-Shazaam! set up as COIN1="4", P4B4-Shazaam! Set up as Coin4="8", and have the Coin Buttons wired up as special buttons.

My incorrect assumption was that when I pressed the COIN1 Button, the KeyWiz would send LShift first and then 4.

If I understand correctly, pressing Coin1 will immediately send ONLY "4" (as desired), but if I press Coin1 and Player 4 simultaneously presses --BINGO! Either that, or I was attempting to say "before" but it was too many letters to type--, "8" (coin4) will be sent instead of P4B4.

This could be disastrous if one of my Shazaam buttons is mapped to Escape or Pause :-((

Do I have it right now?

Yes, this is correct.

But since the Shazaaam! feature supports multiple simultaneous keypresses, you could have those functions mapped in software so they wouldn't trigger unless 2, 3 or more specific buttons were pressed at the same time.

Which leads me to another way the dual-purpose key can be set up in software.  In the example I gave earlier, the dual purpose button was mapped to ";".  If the software you are using supports multiple key mappings, you could make every extra feature to equal ";" + (keycode).  No extra keycodes.

RandyT

[Kane]

Well.. FWIW I just ordered one.. and I will do a review.  I do not have an ipac to compare it to (just a sidewinder hack)... but I can be a reasonable test case for ease of installation, ease of use... compatibility, etc...

So... Randy quit posting messages and go process my order (just teasing) =P

Rampy

I think I would be a better test subject for "ease of use". I should be receiving mine today or tomorrow. I have NO prior experience in things of this nature

[rampy]

Well.. FWIW I just ordered one.. and I will do a review.  I do not have an ipac to compare it to (just a sidewinder hack)... but I can be a reasonable test case for ease of installation, ease of use... compatibility, etc...

So... Randy quit posting messages and go process my order (just teasing) =P

Rampy

I think I would be a better test subject for "ease of use". I should be receiving mine today or tomorrow. I have NO prior experience in things of this nature

Well as long as you write up something... I'm sure plenty of people have received non-beta key wiz units that they've paid for but I've seen nary a review posted (either informally as a post here, or as a "feature" on a website)

I'm saying I'm gonna write something up and take a pic or two and put it up...  and I plan on following through on that.

It would be cool if you have the time/inclination to do the same before I get mine especially with your "ground floor experience" level (I hope that came out right).  I look forward to hearing yours (and others) first hand experiences with the Key Wiz...


Know what I mean?

Rampy

[Tiger-Heli]

Yes, this is correct.

But since the Shazaaam! feature supports multiple simultaneous keypresses, you could have those functions mapped in software so they wouldn't trigger unless 2, 3 or more specific buttons were pressed at the same time.

Okay, now I don't quite follow!!!

My idea was to have a button for ESC (wired with your adapter to Shazaam! and P2B5).  The problem came if I pressed a different Shazaam! function and also pressed P2B5, the game would exit.  If I follow correctly, I could have the software set up so Shazaam! and P2B4, P2B5 AND P2B6 together pressed Escape.  But I don't want to press three buttons together to end the game!

Is it possible to use one button with 3 of the adapters wired together to do what you are suggesting?

Another idea a friend and I were kicking around: what if the Shazaam! key only accepted one input per press and wouldn't read any more inputs until the Shazaam! button was released and pressed again.

Then, using my previous example, you could not press Coin 1 (Shazaam! P1B4) and Coin2 (Shazaam! P2B4) at the same time, but pressing Coin1 and P2B4 would work fine and there would be no way to accidentally exit the game from an unintentionally Shazaam! (Coin1 and P2B5) key combination.

Could this be done in software, or maybe through a jumper on the board (Pins 1-2= multiple Shazaam! presses, Pins 2-3 = single Shazaam! presses), or would the whole board need to be redesigned (and multiple Shazaam! presses disabled) to accomodate this?

[Kane]

[quote author=rampy
Well as long as you write up something... I'm sure plenty of people have received non-beta key wiz units that they've paid for but I've seen nary a review posted (either informally as a post here, or as a "feature" on a website)

I'm saying I'm gonna write something up and take a pic or two and put it up...  and I plan on following through on that.

It would be cool if you have the time/inclination to do the same before I get mine especially with your "ground floor experience" level (I hope that came out right).  I look forward to hearing yours (and others) first hand experiences with the Key Wiz...


Know what I mean?

Rampy

I do plan on taking pics and writing up a quick "review" for us on the "ground floor" I'll post a link when all is said and done, probably tomorrow night or sometime on Saturday.

[Tiger-Heli]

Just to clarify:

If I understand correctly, there are two ways to make a Special Button, one is the example Randy gave with the ";" and the P1 Start button, which gives you a similar situation to the I-PAC except that the Shift function occurs on KeyDown.

What I am asking about is a way to mount one button that only send another button's shifted function, which I thought the adapters will allow.

Followup-Question:  Assuming you can have this button mapped to multiple inputs is it possible to do something like this (except RandyT already told me the direction inputs can't be shifted), but.  I remap input A to UP and input B to down and connect these to the Joystick switches.  Now I assign Shazaam! A and B to Esc.  Then I wire my button with adapters to the Joystick UP and Down switches.  Since a joystick can't be up and down at the same time, there is no way to accidentally exit the game, but the button will exit.  Would this work?

[RandyT]

My idea was to have a button for ESC (wired with your adapter to Shazaam! and P2B5).  The problem came if I pressed a different Shazaam! function and also pressed P2B5, the game would exit.  If I follow correctly, I could have the software set up so Shazaam! and P2B4, P2B5 AND P2B6 together pressed Escape.  But I don't want to press three buttons together to end the game!

Is it possible to use one button with 3 of the adapters wired together to do what you are suggesting?

You know,  I hadn't thought about that, but I don't see why it wouldn't

Another idea a friend and I were kicking around: what if the Shazaam! key only accepted one input per press and wouldn't read any more inputs until the Shazaam! button was released and pressed again.

Then, using my previous example, you could not press Coin 1 (Shazaam! P1B4) and Coin2 (Shazaam! P2B4) at the same time, but pressing Coin1 and P2B4 would work fine and there would be no way to accidentally exit the game from an unintentionally Shazaam! (Coin1 and P2B5) key combination.

Could this be done in software, or maybe through a jumper on the board (Pins 1-2= multiple Shazaam! presses, Pins 2-3 = single Shazaam! presses), or would the whole board need to be redesigned (and multiple Shazaam! presses disabled) to accomodate this?

Jumpers = lost inputs.  The KeyWiz was purposely designed to allow multiple simultaneous Shazaaam! keypresses as I feel that this gives the unit the most flexibility.  It comes down to a choice between two undesireable aspects.  

1) No Blocking (KeyWiz method).  No blocking means some things might happen with certain combinations that you don't want.  But it also lets any number of keypresses be registered at the same time, which is desireable.  There are also options to minimize any issues inherent to this method.

Example:  A switch on a coin door is set-up as a "special" switch.  You drop a token in while someone is pressing the button with ESC as a secondary.  The program exits.  Change the exit function to a 2 or 3 button combo, problem solved.

2) Blocking - Blocking can keep undesireable things from happening, but can also keep desireable things from happening.  This lets one thing happen and that's it!  No options, no flexibility.  No "workarounds", nothing.  Just blocking.

Example:  A switch on a coin door is set-up as a "special" switch.  You drop a token in while someone is pressing the button with ESC as a secondary.  The program doesn't exit, but your token went to never-land without giving you a credit.  No solution because the inputs are exclusive.


The only real solution to all of this is to pay twice as much for a controller with more inputs.


RandyT

[RandyT]

What I am asking about is a way to mount one button that only send another button's shifted function, which I thought the adapters will allow.

Think of the Shazaaam! feature as a shift key on a keyboard (it's not because it does more, but nonetheless).  When the Shazaaam! button, or "special" button with the adapter is pressed, all buttons are temporarily re-mapped  to equal their Shazaaam! definitions, until you release the button.  That is why only "non-control" functions should be mapped to these.  This aspect is the same regardless of the encoder used.

Followup-Question:  Assuming you can have this button mapped to multiple inputs is it possible to do something like this (except RandyT already told me the direction inputs can't be shifted), but.  I remap input A to UP and input B to down and connect these to the Joystick switches.  Now I assign Shazaam! A and B to Esc.  Then I wire my button with adapters to the Joystick UP and Down switches.  Since a joystick can't be up and down at the same time, there is no way to accidentally exit the game, but the button will exit.  Would this work?

If you have 4 control sticks, 2 of them will have Shazaaam! definitions assigned to each of their inputs.

So yes, what you described will work fine!

RandyT

[Kane]

ok guys, I received my buttons and Keywhiz yesterday and began wiring things up. I will have all of it hooked up tonight and will be posting my reveiw of the Keywhiz first thing in the morning, or before I hit the sack tonight. I am recruiting my daughter to help "torture" test the Keywhiz

[_Iz-]

Did you get any of the "special Y adapters" with your order? If yes, please include your take on the 1 button shifted combos in your review. And if you wanted to dissect one Y adapter and tell us how they're made that'd be great too!    However, I'm reasonably sure the "integrated electronic component" is 2 diodes...

[Kane]

I did not get any y adapters as they just became available and I placed my order last Saturday.

[_Iz-]

Bummer...  

Inquiring minds want to know...  

[Howard_Casto]

Just to clarify:

If I understand correctly, there are two ways to make a Special Button, one is the example Randy gave with the ";" and the P1 Start button, which gives you a similar situation to the I-PAC except that the Shift function occurs on KeyDown.

What I am asking about is a way to mount one button that only send another button's shifted function, which I thought the adapters will allow.

Followup-Question:  Assuming you can have this button mapped to multiple inputs is it possible to do something like this (except RandyT already told me the direction inputs can't be shifted), but.  I remap input A to UP and input B to down and connect these to the Joystick switches.  Now I assign Shazaam! A and B to Esc.  Then I wire my button with adapters to the Joystick UP and Down switches.  Since a joystick can't be up and down at the same time, there is no way to accidentally exit the game, but the button will exit.  Would this work?

Tiger I think you are starting to see the problem I have with the shazaam key.  As you can see andy was correct in putting in the delay in the shift function and it was well thought out.  

Also just for the record, and only for the record, randy's excuses of not doing things to "prevent key blocking" or "increase the number of simultanious keys pressed" is another one of those vaporware features I was talking about.  

Has anyone EVER had any trouble with the ipac not registering enough keypresses?  How about key blocking?  How about the ipac 4?  Before you look it up the answer is no, they have not.  

And that's been my point all along... you can't call something a feature when it doesn't do anything.  You can't say something performs better when the original already preformed as well as the related hardware will allow.  

[_Iz-]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that using the adapters to extend the keywiz's inputs is just a bad idea.

Other than as dedicated MAME/emu function keys the only place they can really be used is for non-essential inputs, like coin-up and start. (keep reading for why)

Even using them for coin and start can cause some serious problems. Say you've created a 4 player panel (4 buttons per) and are using Y adapters to extend the keywiz to get the coin and start buttons for each player. Whenever someone presses a coin or start button ALL buttons on the panel are shifted for however long the button is held. In a 4 player game this can wreak havoc on the other 3 players who are still mashing away! Yes, you can minimize this by making everyone's 3rd and 4th buttons the shifted coin and start and program 1 and 2 to have the same shifted/nonshifted code but the problem exists. What if player 2, 3 or 4 try and coin or start at the same time player 1 sticks left or right? Then you're into another codeset altogether! Scary! Not a good option except for the truly broke or desperate. (If you're that broke you probably shouldn't be making a 4 player arcade cabinet). Trying to use them for even more frequently used functions (like actual player buttons or even combo's) is just begging for problems...

Now, this is not to say it isn't an acceptable product for a 2 player panel, I just couldn't recommend it for a 4 player, even for someone really trying to keep costs down and I wouldn't want to use the Y adapters for much more than producing a 1 button "esc" or "tab" (not that I want those buttons on my cab anyway, I prefer them hidden as secondary functions).

[RandyT]

Other than as dedicated MAME/emu function keys the only place they can really be used is for non-essential inputs, like coin-up and start. (keep reading for why)

I believe I said that myself

Even using them for coin and start can cause some serious problems. Say you've created a 4 player panel (4 buttons per) and are using Y adapters to extend the keywiz to get the coin and start buttons for each player. Whenever someone presses a coin or start button ALL buttons on the panel are shifted for however long the button is held. In a 4 player game this can wreak havoc on the other 3 players who are still mashing away! Yes, you can minimize this by making everyone's 3rd and 4th buttons the shifted coin and start and program 1 and 2 to have the same shifted/nonshifted code but the problem exists. What if player 2, 3 or 4 try and coin or start at the same time player 1 sticks left or right? Then you're into another codeset altogether! Scary! Not a good option except for the truly broke or desperate. (If you're that broke you probably shouldn't be making a 4 player arcade cabinet). Trying to use them for even more frequently used functions (like actual player buttons or even combo's) is just begging for problems...

I never said these should ever be used as actual player buttons.  In fact, just the opposite.

Also in the example you gave, if "blocking" was employed, the 3 players that were mashing buttons would have to stop screwing around on the panel anyway or your "coin up" wouldn't register.  You could mash that button all day long and if that control panel wasn't dead-idle you'd never even make it into shift mode.

I don't see the big advantage doing it that way.

Now, this is not to say it isn't an acceptable product for a 2 player panel, I just couldn't recommend it for a 4 player, even for someone really trying to keep costs down and I wouldn't want to use the Y adapters for much more than producing a 1 button "esc" or "tab" (not that I want those buttons on my cab anyway, I prefer them hidden as secondary functions).

That's really all they are there for.  The adapters aren't magic and they can't change the way the Shazaaam! function works.  All they can do is give it to you with a single press rather than 2.  Everything else stays the same.

The KeyWiz can do a 4 player panel, but it will never be the same as a product that costs twice as much.  Howard is now starting to make comparisons to the IPAC4.  *punt*  

I haven't tried to pull any wool over anyone's eyes here.  I've done my best to answer questions, even in the face of obvious attacks on the product by someone who has never seen it or used it (that's you, Howard).

For those that don't know, there's been some "bad blood" between Howard and myself in the past.  The only thing I can surmise at this point is that his sometimes incoherent criticism of the KeyWiz stems from this.  Looking at recent posts, it's become obvious that he isn't even reading the threads before making those criticisms.  

For those who look at Howard as their mentor, you might want to consider the destructive effects of his actions.  Ask yourself how many options you might have for things you would like to do if there weren't individuals like this who offer little to the community other than criticism of the work of others.  

This will be my last post here regarding KeyWiz.  A number of them have shipped and that includes to some regulars on this site (including the Owner, it's good to be the King )  I expect they will offer their opinions soon.

As always, I'll keep adding to the discussion of other topics and try to be as informative and helpful as I can.  

If you have a question about the KeyWiz, come to the site and drop me an Email.  I'll be happy to talk to you.

Thank You and Goodnight .

RandyT

[_Iz-]

Hey, I wouldn't want blocking either and never suggested it (althought I am aware one other person did).

Anyway, I'm just trying to wrap my own head around the advantages and disadvantages of the keywiz (and doing it fairly publicly   ).

Thanks Randy for your patience and replies, I'm looking forward to the forthcoming user reviews.

[OSCAR]

A number of them have shipped and that includes to some regulars on this site (including the Owner, it's good to be the King )  I expect they will offer their opinions soon.

Hopefully saint gets around to offering his opinion on the KeyWiz quicker than he is on the Pro spinner I sent him, oooh, about 5 months ago now.  Still waiting on that review...  


Just kidding, John, take your time.  

 

[Tiger-Heli]

Tiger I think you are starting to see the problem I have with the shazaam key.  As you can see andy was correct in putting in the delay in the shift function and it was well thought out.  

I agree with you that Shift keys in general are bad and the best option is to buy an encoder with enough inputs that you don't need to use shifted inputs.  OTOH, I feel that Randy's implementation of the Shift function is better than any other encoder on the market, but it comes down to whatever you want the function to do.

Also just for the record, and only for the record, randy's excuses of not doing things to "prevent key blocking" or "increase the number of simultanious keys pressed" is another one of those vaporware features I was talking about.  

Randy was responding to a post that I made asking for blocking of additional inputs when the shazaam! key was pressed.  He wasn't saying that key blocking was a problem with the I-PAC.  He was merely responding to my questions.

And that's been my point all along... you can't call something a feature when it doesn't do anything.  You can't say something performs better when the original already preformed as well as the related hardware will allow.  

Yes, you can!  It just doesn't mean anything!!!  A Hayabusa (motorcycle) will go almost 200 mph, an Interceptor tops out around 140.  The Hayabusa performs better, but if you aren't stoplight racing or going more than double the U.S. speed limit, it doesn't matter.

The claims about number of simultaneous keypresses and processor speed fall into this category, but it is helpful to quantify this things to show that the product isn't merely a standard keyboard encoder chip with some terminal strips added.  The other features clearly differentiate the unit from the competing products.

To me, the biggest consideration is what games can I play with it, and what games am I unable to play with it.  In this category, the KeyWiz has a big advantage over the I-PAC/2 and is comparable to the MK40.

[Tiger-Heli]

Hi _Iz-,

I am considering using the adapters for coin and start and also pause and escape, but you make some valid points that I hadn't considered.  I still think it is workable.  (Read on).

Other than as dedicated MAME/emu function keys the only place they can really be used is for non-essential inputs, like coin-up and start. (keep reading for why)

Right, that's been said many times!

Whenever someone presses a coin or start button ALL buttons on the panel are shifted for however long the button is held. In a 4 player game this can wreak havoc on the other 3 players who are still mashing away!

It wouldn't be that bad, ideally, the worst thing that might happen is Player 3 might have a missed shot or a coin input himself instead of a shot.  I could deal with that.

Yes, you can minimize this by making everyone's 3rd and 4th buttons the shifted coin and start and program 1 and 2 to have the same shifted/nonshifted code but the problem exists.

Good point, you better program ALL the non-shifted (that aren't used for coin/start etc when shifted) buttons to have the same shifted/nonshifted code (joystick directionals too).

What if player 2, 3 or 4 try and coin or start at the same time player 1 sticks left or right?
Then you're into another codeset altogether! Scary!

Excellent point that I hadn't even considered!!! RandyT, is there any way to add an option in software (or otherwise) to disable the joystick code switching to avoid this?

I wouldn't want to use the Y adapters for much more than producing a 1 button "esc" or "tab" (not that I want those buttons on my cab anyway, I prefer them hidden as secondary functions).

Here's a caution and a workaround which RandyT pointed out to me.  BE VERY CAREFUL HAVING A SHIFTED FUNCTION FOR COIN INPUT AND ESCAPE.

Let's say Player 4 button 4 shifted is mapped to escape.  Player 1 goes to insert a coin, Player 4 continues playing and presses button 4 and . . .  GAME OVER!!!

Here's the solution:  P1B7 and P1B8 are used as Joystick 3 Up and Down on my panel.  They are assigned to C and V, whether shifted or non-shifted.  They cannot be pressed at the same time, because a joystick cannot be both up and down simultaneously.  However, I can use two special adapters to map the ESC button on the panel to Shazaam! P1B7 and P1B8.  Now in MAME, I set my ctrl.ini file to "UI EXIT   Keycode_ESC  | Keycode_C Keycode_V"  (the KEYCODE_ESC is kept as I plan a desktop controller and might want to use the keyboard occasionally, you could make it just "C and V" otherwise).

[Tiger-Heli]

Howard is now starting to make comparisons to the IPAC4.  *punt*  

Howard's comparing it to the I-PAC/4, I'm comparing it to the MK40.  The KeyWiz is in some pretty good company now.  RandyT, you should be proud.  Those considering a KeyWiz, you should take notice!!!!

Note: this isn't a blanket endorsement - there are some features I would really miss having on the KeyWiz (LED Support, dedicated pass-thru, USB support), however the unit is very well thought out and very attractively priced.  We've been through the reasons that the unit doesn't have these features and whether I agree or not is irrelevant at this point.

The KeyWiz will not be for everyone, but it's definitely one to consider!!!

[_Iz-]

Here's a caution and a workaround which RandyT pointed out to me.  BE VERY CAREFUL HAVING A SHIFTED FUNCTION FOR COIN INPUT AND ESCAPE.

Let's say Player 4 button 4 shifted is mapped to escape.  Player 1 goes to insert a coin, Player 4 continues playing and presses button 4 and . . .  GAME OVER!!!

Here's the solution:  P1B7 and P1B8 are used as Joystick 3 Up and Down on my panel.  They are assigned to C and V, whether shifted or non-shifted.  They cannot be pressed at the same time, because a joystick cannot be both up and down simultaneously.  However, I can use two special adapters to map the ESC button on the panel to Shazaam! P1B7 and P1B8.  Now in MAME, I set my ctrl.ini file to "UI EXIT   Keycode_ESC  | Keycode_C Keycode_V"  (the KEYCODE_ESC is kept as I plan a desktop controller and might want to use the keyboard occasionally, you could make it just "C and V" otherwise).

This works great for MAME but what about outside MAME? Most other emulators and front ends don't support this.

[Kane]

Sorry I'm so late with this guys. I was gonna do a small site but before I finished the page the damn computer crashed and I wasn't starting over. The following are just my thoughts and opinions if you have questions send me an email.-

I ordered the KeyWiz Max from http://www.groovygamegear.com/.
First of all, let me state that I have absolutely NO prior experience in wiring of any keyboard encoder or buttons. With that said lets get on with my thoughts.

First things first, the encoder came well packaged in a USPS priority mail box. In the box were the Encoder, an instruction sheet, floppy diskette, 6ft. PS/2 cable and a receipt.
Hook-up of the encoder took only about 10 minutes (2 joysticks and 18 buttons). The first problem I noticed was some of  the terminal screws were very tight, almost too tight. A few times I thought I was gonna crack the encoder trying to hold it and turn the screws. Once all screws were loosened the rest was a breeze.
After hooking all the wires up I inserted the floppy to install the software and there was the second problem. This error may be because of the version of windows I was running, or something else but I received a

[rampy]

Hey Kane,

Thanks for doing a write up.  Glad you were able to get yours up and running with only minimal/solvable issues.

Of course, we probably won't hear from you for days now that your controls are wired =P

rampy

[_Iz-]

Days? I think you mean weeks...  

Kane, are you in Canada? Did you get dinged for Duty or Brokerage? How much?

[Kane]

Not in Canada- in Pennsylvania

On a side note I have NOT used the Shazaaam feature yet (Happs back oreder some of my buttons) but I should be getting a hold of a couple of buttons today and will hook them up as soon as I do.

[Grasshopper]

I'm surprised how much hostility there has been to the KeyWiz. In the long run competition can only be to the benefit of BYOAC customers.

My own thoughts are as follows.

Things I like:
First and foremost the price,  it's significantly cheaper than the Ipac. The lack of screw connectors is a useful way to keep costs down. I'm guessing that most people who build their own controls are not afraid of soldering.
More inputs than the standard Ipac.

Things I don't care about:
the whole Shazaam vs Shift key debate. Both systems provide more than enough functionality for me.
Lack of USB support. It would be a bonus for future-proofing, however USB is not a priority for me at the moment.

Thing I don't like:
Lack of keyboard pass-through on the cheaper models. In my opinion this is a serious deficiency. Even the most expensive model only provides a system activated by a switch which is a bit clumsy. I don't see how this facility can add significantly to the cost, or significantly reduce performance.


RandyT: Please could you answer a few questions for me. I know you suggested that people should email you as you weren't going to post on this topic again. However I think other people on this board might be interested in the answers. If you don't wish to post again then please can you PM me.

First of all, will you be selling to people outside of the USA, and if so can you give us an approximate idea of the shipping costs? I live in the UK.

Do you accept payments by Paypal? This method is particularly convenient if you are ordering from abroad as Paypal does not make a charge for converting currency.

Going back to the keyboard pass-through issue, why don't you adopt the approach taken by Stephan Hans? His keyboard splitter can be built for a few dollars and as far as I am aware it does not affect the performance of the keyboards attached to it.

If I bought the cheapest KeyWiz, could I then add keyboard pass-through functionality by soldering my own DIN socket to the circuit board?

Thanks in advance

[eightbit]

Going back to the keyboard pass-through issue, why don't you adopt the approach taken by Stephan Hans? His keyboard splitter can be built for a few dollars and as far as I am aware it does not affect the performance of the keyboards attached to it.

If I bought the cheapest KeyWiz, could I then add keyboard pass-through functionality by soldering my own DIN socket to the circuit board?

I can't speak to the payment or shipping issues.

I can tell you why the keywiz didn't use the keyboard pass through. It takes inputs and can cause lower performance. So no a pass through couldn't easily be added. A USB keyboard can be had for under $10 shipped to you in the states. I don't know what you can get them for in the UK. Even DOS under most Bios's can use a USB keyboard. I've seen ps2 to USB adapters for under $4 and you could adapt any keyboard to usb. There are also performance issues with USB in general. Andy has claimed that he has gotten around the normal USB 6 key simultanious limit but he hasn't claimed to my knowledge how many he has gotten to work.

Whats this keyboard splitter by Stephan that you speak of? I'm interested in it.

[_Iz-]

Is it not possible to connect 2 keyboards in parallel to one PS/2 port? Don't they make splitters that adapt 2 female to 1 male pin for pin with no actual "electronics"? Basically a simple "Y"?

[eightbit]

Is it not possible to connect 2 keyboards in parallel to one PS/2 port? Don't they make splitters that adapt 2 female to 1 male pin for pin with no actual "electronics"? Basically a simple "Y"?

Its been asked before and the answer was no. Those splitters are designed for laptops to split a keyboard and a mouse. The PS/2 port on a laptop is wired to work this way.

I have a couple of those splitters for my laptops, I'll give it a test when I get a chance.

[Grasshopper]

Going back to the keyboard pass-through issue, why don't you adopt the approach taken by Stephan Hans? His keyboard splitter can be built for a few dollars and as far as I am aware it does not affect the performance of the keyboards attached to it.

If I bought the cheapest KeyWiz, could I then add keyboard pass-through functionality by soldering my own DIN socket to the circuit board?

I can't speak to the payment or shipping issues.

I can tell you why the keywiz didn't use the keyboard pass through. It takes inputs and can cause lower performance. So no a pass through couldn't easily be added. A USB keyboard can be had for under $10 shipped to you in the states. I don't know what you can get them for in the UK. Even DOS under most Bios's can use a USB keyboard. I've seen ps2 to USB adapters for under $4 and you could adapt any keyboard to usb. There are also performance issues with USB in general. Andy has claimed that he has gotten around the normal USB 6 key simultanious limit but he hasn't claimed to my knowledge how many he has gotten to work.

Whats this keyboard splitter by Stephan that you speak of? I'm interested in it.

USB keyboards can be bought quite cheaply in the UK however I've never seen a PS/2 to USB adaptor for the price you quoted.

A USB keyboard is a good solution if you're building a complete cabinet. However if you're just building a control panel and you already own a PS/2 keyboard which you like using then you don't necessarily want to clutter up your desk with a second keyboard just for using with the control panel.

Stephan Hans circuit can be found here:

http://home.t-online.de/home/stephan.hans/tricks.htm#DUAL-KEYBOARD%20Circuit

I suppose there is nothing to stop you using his circuit with a KeyWiz.

I vaguely remember Andy saying that the Ipac could handle up to 15 simultaneous keypresses in USB mode.

[rampy]

Hey grasshopper, my undersatnding, after asking a simliar question to randyT a while ago was:

You could solder on your own DIN if you bought the cheapest key wiz... but you'd also need to solder on a switch as it still wouldn't act like a passthru.

I'm sure if one was doing a desktop controller where they'd switch alot (from normal keyboard to arcade encoding) a simple switching circuit could be built to "sense" which keyboard was active at a given time (just an idea I had when wrapping my mind around your comments ->it might not work, or have adverse effects *shrug*)

rampy

EDIT: doh -> just looked at stephens circuit and, yeah that's what I was thinking along the lines of, although, I probably wouldn't of come up with a working solution on my own =P

[Grasshopper]

Hey grasshopper, my undersatnding, after asking a simliar question to randyT a while ago was:

You could solder on your own DIN if you bought the cheapest key wiz... but you'd also need to solder on a switch as it still wouldn't act like a passthru.

I'm sure if one was doing a desktop controller where they'd switch alot (from normal keyboard to arcade encoding) a simple switching circuit could be built to "sense" which keyboard was active at a given time (just an idea I had when wrapping my mind around your comments ->it might not work, or have adverse effects *shrug*)

rampy

Thanks for that. RandyT did actually PM me yesterday and confirmed what you just said. He also answered all my other questions.

You switching circuit idea sounds like the circuit that Stephan Hans had already designed.

[_Iz-]

Is it not possible to connect 2 keyboards in parallel to one PS/2 port? Don't they make splitters that adapt 2 female to 1 male pin for pin with no actual "electronics"? Basically a simple "Y"?

Its been asked before and the answer was no. Those splitters are designed for laptops to split a keyboard and a mouse. The PS/2 port on a laptop is wired to work this way.

I have a couple of those splitters for my laptops, I'll give it a test when I get a chance.

I think the laptop splitters are definitely designed differently than what you would need, they probably need a suitably wired ps/2 port and take advantage of the 2 "reserved" pins in the p/s port.

How about this though?

http://www.trianglecables.com/7inps2ycabtw.html

Wouldn't this work for 2 ps/2 keyboards? I don't think I'd want to use them both simultaneously but who does on an arcade cabinet, you use either the controls or the keyboard...

[Kane]

that would work....and I went and spent 40$ on a USB keyboard

[_Iz-]

that would work....and I went and spent 40$ on a USB keyboard

$40!     Shoulda ordered a $10 one with your keywiz...  

[eightbit]

How about this though?

http://www.trianglecables.com/7inps2ycabtw.html

Wouldn't this work for 2 ps/2 keyboards? I don't think I'd want to use them both simultaneously but who does on an arcade cabinet, you use either the controls or the keyboard...

Thats what we have been talking about for laptops. I don't think it will work on a normal PC with 2 keyboards. I think I might have time tonight to try one of those and see what happens.