I-PAC shift function vs. KeyWiz Shazaam Function for Howard C.

[Tiger-Heli]

Ok, I'm a glutton for punishment, but the other thread is now locked, so I'll try here.

Let's say you have a 4-player, 4-button cabinet - 32 inputs.  This uses all your KeyWiz inputs, but the Shazaam! key does not take away an input, so you can mount it in the middle of the panel and use shifted keys for coin inputs, TAB, etc.

Now with the I-PAC, let's say you have a 4-player, 3-button cabinet - 28 inputs.  You no longer have a P1 Start button, b/c this input is required for gameplay.  Sure you could map your P1 Start input to "nothing", mount it in the center of the panel and have a dedicated Shift button with the I-PAC, but that takes away an input, so you now only have 27 inputs and not enough to play the games.  Or you can use P1B1 as a gameplay and Shift button, but then as HC said in a previous post, you have Shift functions popping up during gameplay and Player 4 reaching across to press Player 1B1 to add a new coin.

As I said in a previous post, think of the KeyWiz as 33 inputs, one of which (Shazaam) can't be used for gameplay, or think of the I-PAC as 28 inputs, but only 27 if you want a dedicated Shift key.

I can't make it any clearer, if you still don't get it, you probably never will, unless anyone else wants to try!!!

[simpleman46]

So the KeyWiz really does have 33 inputs on it?  But one of them can only be used for Shazaaam?  I've been a little confused about that myself.  

I kinda like how the ipac shift button can have a function and also be used as shift.  

Seems to me that if both the ipac and the keywiz had identical number of inputs, I'd have to give ipac the advantage, since it's shift button can have the dual functionality (if you want).

But they don't have identical number of inputs, so it's tough to make the comparison.

[Tiger-Heli]

So the KeyWiz really does have 33 inputs on it?  But one of them can only be used for Shazaaam?  I've been a little confused about that myself.  

I kinda like how the ipac shift button can have a function and also be used as shift.  

Seems to me that if both the ipac and the keywiz had identical number of inputs, I'd have to give ipac the advantage, since it's shift button can have the dual functionality (if you want).

But they don't have identical number of inputs, so it's tough to make the comparison.

Personally, I prefer the way the KeyWiz is set up in this regard.  BTW, there is a way to have the KeyWiz use the shifted functions without having a dedicated button, but I don't have all the details yet.

[SirPoonga]

Personally, I prefer the way the KeyWiz is set up in this regard.  BTW, there is a way to have the KeyWiz use the shifted functions without having a dedicated button, but I don't have all the details yet.

I thought randyt said it didn't exist but he was looking into it.

BTW, I love the fact that the shift key on my ipac has a normal function too.  one less button to clutter up the cp.

[Tiger-Heli]

Personally, I prefer the way the KeyWiz is set up in this regard.  BTW, there is a way to have the KeyWiz use the shifted functions without having a dedicated button, but I don't have all the details yet.

I thought randyt said it didn't exist but he was looking into it.

BTW, I love the fact that the shift key on my ipac has a normal function too.  one less button to clutter up the cp.

It exists now, check the FAQ on the KeyWiz site and the end of the locked ooooooh! thread.

[eightbit]

Heres another perspective-  

The shifted functions of the Ipac and the keywiz are wonderful. If your only doing mame you don't need either unless you need the functions to be available outside of the emulator. Outside the emu you need to be able to navigate a list and start the game. This is usually done with p1 joystick and p1b1. Inside the emu is where you need the programed buttons, esc, pause , coin, player start plus a bunch of other actions if you want them.

Within mame you can specify any key combination that you want. You can set up a dedicated shift button or it can have its own action plus a shifted action. You can configure key combo moves, like require a 3 key combination to get TAB to get the game menu.

The advantage to doing it inside the emu is that you never mess with changing jumpers or programing of the encoder or switching codesets. You practicly have an unlimited ability to program as many functions as you want without adding any more buttons to your control panel.

[ErikRuud]

I have an IPAC, it is a great product.  The KeyWhiz looks good too.

In my cab, I must have a programmable encoder.

I run O2Em (an Odyssey2 emulator), it does not have assignable keys, and O2 controllers only had one fire button.

I use multiple configurations on my IPac. One each for O2em, MAME, Retrocade, and one for Game Launcher.  For example in the O2Em configuration all 5 player 1 buttons are set to be the player 1 fire button. I do the same for the 5 player 2 buttons.  The Game Launcher configuration set all the player buttons to be space(Show Snapshot) and all the MAME admin buttons are set to 1(Launch Game).

I know that eventually the EEPROM in the IPac will give out.  When that day comes I will have to buy a new encoder. It might be an IPac, or it might not. Both the KeyWhiz and IPac 4 would allow me to add the extra buttons for modern fighting games(I'm not really a fan of those anyway).

From my point of view, the two products are functionally very simular, and neither one has a huge feature advantage over the other.  As I see it, IPAC is a proven product, and KeyWhiz is less expensive.

I don't understand the complaints about US Customs charges with the IPAC.  I paid the purchase price and the S&H, there were no additional charges.

[Tiger-Heli]

I don't understand the complaints about US Customs charges with the IPAC.  I paid the purchase price and the S&H, there were no additional charges.

As I understand it, the Customs charges occur when shipping products to Canada.  (Although you might be in Canada, in which case, I don't understand either.)

[eightbit]

I know that eventually the EEPROM in the IPac will give out.  When that day comes I will have to buy a new encoder. It might be an IPac, or it might not. Both the KeyWhiz and IPac 4 would allow me to add the extra buttons for modern fighting games(I'm not really a fan of those anyway).

Eeproms have a limited life but I doubt if your going to see the end of it.

[ErikRuud]

Nope, I am in the US.  

Someone had said that the KeyWhiz would not get the customs charges because it was from the US, so I thought they were talking about US Customs.

[eightbit]

Nope, I am in the US.  

Someone had said that the KeyWhiz would not get the customs charges because it was from the US, so I thought they were talking about US Customs.

I've ordered twice from ultimark and know personally of 2 other people that have ordered from Ultimark with no custom charges in the US. The only complaint I've heard is from Canada and they seem to inconsistantly charge a additional customs charge.

[rampy]

Nope, I am in the US.  

Someone had said that the KeyWhiz would not get the customs charges because it was from the US, so I thought they were talking about US Customs.

I've ordered twice from ultimark and know personally of 2 other people that have ordered from Ultimark with no custom charges in the US. The only complaint I've heard is from Canada and they seem to inconsistantly charge a additional customs charge.

I think people are generalizing "customs" charges when they really mean high-er shipping and handling charges for international shipping.

It's 6 bucks in shipping to get a key whiz in the continental US and 12 dollars in shipping to get 1 item from ultimarc if you happen to live in the US.   I think people genericize this as "customs charge" mistakenly when it's really the cost of shipping items overseas AFAIK.

*shrug*

i do declare...

rampy

[Tiger-Heli]

I think people are generalizing "customs" charges when they really mean high-er shipping and handling charges for international shipping.

It's 6 bucks in shipping to get a key whiz in the continental US and 12 dollars in shipping to get 1 item from ultimarc if you happen to live in the US.   I think people genericize this as "customs charge" mistakenly when it's really the cost of shipping items overseas AFAIK.

No that's not it, there's some sort of Canadian duty charges.  I dug up Reply #5 by Psyklops to this thread http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3249

"I live in northern Alberta, Canada and just placed and received an order with Happ.

[Brax]

It is a duty charge. Duty isn't charged on all items all the time though. Basically if it's under the value of 20 or 30 dollars you're probably safe. Over that.... it's a crap shoot. Some items are exempt due to the free trade agreement as well. Who can keep track though, I just order stuff and hope for the best.

Out of the 30 or so ebay purchases i've made from US sellers i've been nailed for additional duty once.

With a 50% exchange rate, shipping charges in US funds, possible duty, these "cheap" products quickly become uncheap.

[RandyT]

It is a duty charge. Duty isn't charged on all items all the time though. Basically if it's under the value of 20 or 30 dollars you're probably safe. Over that.... it's a crap shoot. Some items are exempt due to the free trade agreement as well. Who can keep track though, I just order stuff and hope for the best.

Out of the 30 or so ebay purchases i've made from US sellers i've been nailed for additional duty once.

With a 50% exchange rate, shipping charges in US funds, possible duty, these "cheap" products quickly become uncheap.

We just sent a KeyWiz to Canada labeled as "Made In USA Computer Component" (which it is) and I will contact the purchaser to find out how he fared with duties.  Hopefully it will be covered under the "Free Trade Agreement".  I'll keep everyone updated on the results.

RandyT

[_Iz-]

(I'm in canada) In my experience the duty is no biggie, it's the brokerage fee some shipping companies charge to bring it across the boarder into canada that's the killer. I ordered an ipac and it came with no additional charges. I ordered parts from happs, they shipped UPS and I was dinged almost $40 in brokerage. I almost died from the shock! I have heard that USPS has the cheapest brokerage fees, it's only $5. I hang out on the redflagdeals.com forum and everyone there refuses to order from the US unless they will ship USPS.  -just my $0.02

Now, I have a question for RandyT. I have been following the Keywiz vs Ipac discussions very closely and there is one concept that I am having a little trouble with. It has been stated that the Keywiz can have more than 32 "dedicated" inputs using an "adapter" or "special button" but I cannot find any details on this additional item anywhere. What is it? How does it work? Is it really just a dual button that activates the shazzam key and another at the same time?

[Howard_Casto]

Ok, I'm a glutton for punishment, but the other thread is now locked, so I'll try here.

Let's say you have a 4-player, 4-button cabinet - 32 inputs.  This uses all your KeyWiz inputs, but the Shazaam! key does not take away an input, so you can mount it in the middle of the panel and use shifted keys for coin inputs, TAB, etc.

Now with the I-PAC, let's say you have a 4-player, 3-button cabinet - 28 inputs.  You no longer have a P1 Start button, b/c this input is required for gameplay.  Sure you could map your P1 Start input to "nothing", mount it in the center of the panel and have a dedicated Shift button with the I-PAC, but that takes away an input, so you now only have 27 inputs and not enough to play the games.  Or you can use P1B1 as a gameplay and Shift button, but then as HC said in a previous post, you have Shift functions popping up during gameplay and Player 4 reaching across to press Player 1B1 to add a new coin.

As I said in a previous post, think of the KeyWiz as 33 inputs, one of which (Shazaam) can't be used for gameplay, or think of the I-PAC as 28 inputs, but only 27 if you want a dedicated Shift key.

I can't make it any clearer, if you still don't get it, you probably never will, unless anyone else wants to try!!!

The amount of inputs and the way the shift/shazaam keys function have nothing to do with each other.  I had come to believe that the shazaam key could also be used as a regular key. Apparently that is not the case.    

So I take it back, the shazaam key isn't the same as the ipac shift key. It's WORSE  A dedicated shift key is a bad thing.. umm k.  You should at least have the option of using it as a dual function key.  

I, for example, refuse to have special "mame keys" on my control panel.  If I have to have a "shift key" put on special then I'm not getting it.  The idea is I want my cp to look like it could actually be on a real arcade machine.  If I have a row of function keys then it ruins that.  I figure a lot of people with faithful mame conversions of arcade cabinets feel the same way.  

This revelation has really offset the balance for me.  I can now say that the ipac is better than keywiz, although the keywiz would still be a good choice for budget projects.  

[RandyT]

So I take it back, the shazaam key isn't the same as the ipac shift key. It's WORSE  A dedicated shift key is a bad thing.. umm k.  You should at least have the option of using it as a dual function key.  

Ok, if having the ability to use a "shifted" function with a single button press is "worse", then I can't argue  

For an explantion on making a "dual-purpose" button, read a followup in a bit..

I, for example, refuse to have special "mame keys" on my control panel.  If I have to have a "shift key" put on special then I'm not getting it.  The idea is I want my cp to look like it could actually be on a real arcade machine.  If I have a row of function keys then it ruins that.  I figure a lot of people with faithful mame conversions of arcade cabinets feel the same way.

No doubt.  You won't have to have a ton of "mame" keys if you don't want, but the option will be there if you do.  In fact, you could have up to 24 special function buttons on there in addition to controls that used all 32 inputs, with none of them being a dedicated "Shazaaam!" button, if you so desire.  

This revelation has really offset the balance for me.  I can now say that the ipac is better than keywiz, although the keywiz would still be a good choice for budget projects.  

Jumping to conclusions again. eh ?  

RandyT

[RandyT]

Now, I have a question for RandyT. I have been following the Keywiz vs Ipac discussions very closely and there is one concept that I am having a little trouble with. It has been stated that the Keywiz can have more than 32 "dedicated" inputs using an "adapter" or "special button" but I cannot find any details on this additional item anywhere. What is it? How does it work? Is it really just a dual button that activates the shazzam key and another at the same time?

The adapter is a special "Y" adapter with an integrated electronic compnent.  With this adapter, any SPST switch (button, coin door, slam switch, tilt, etc...) can perform the function I wrote about.  This will allow one button to do the same thing as pressing Shazaaam! and another button simultaneously, but without the need for a dedicated Shazaaam! button.

Using this method, you could also have a "dual purpose" button, as while this button is held, any other button pressed at the same will send the Shazaaam! keycode assigned to it.  The only limitation is that the dual-purpose button's function needs to be carefully selected as it's keycode will be sent as well, but only when it is first pressed and not be sent again as long as it is held down.

For instance, this button could be a "start" button on your panel, with it's definitition set to ";".  If you don't have any credits racked up, pressing ";" won't do a thing.  Likewise, it's very unlikely that ";" will have any effect in any outside application.  This would make it a good choice.

Then you could press the "start" button and a second button, to send the "Shazaaam!" keycode associated with the second button.

These adapters will be available from the site starting this evening at $1.25 each. (only gave the price because I know that will be the next question )

RandyT

[_Iz-]

So for each "special button" does 1/2 of the "Y" connect to the shazzam input on the keywiz and the other 1/2 connect to the specific input you want to use?  I assume it then forces the keywiz to use the shifted code for that specific input?

Note to HC, This is how the number of inputs are extended, you don't have to use these for mame functions, they can be action keys, insert coins, etc, you just need to program the code set appropriately.  IE: use all 32 regular inputs for 4 sticks and 4 buttons per player, then use 8 (or more) " buttons with the special adapter to be insert coins and start 1-4. However, I personally still like the dual function shift button on the ipac better. Like HC I have my control panel configured without any "extra" function keys, I just use the ipac shifted codes for controlling mame. Although, I suppose 1 extra button wouldn't be the end of the world, I just prefer no extra...

On another side note, I have re-programmed my IPAC so that "esc" is player1start + coin1 instead of player1start + player2start. I found my kids were exiting games accidentally when they played together, they would get a ways into a game, hit a difficult section, both die and slap the start buttons virtually simultaneously, exiting the game. (Then scream in frustration!)  

RandyT - Any idea if your adapter would work on the Ipac for single button shifted inputs? Is it basically 2 wires with diodes to restrict current flow to 1 direction (so the 2 inputs don't short each other out)?

[RandyT]

So for each "special button" does 1/2 of the "Y" connect to the shazzam input on the keywiz and the other 1/2 connect to the specific input you want to use?  I assume it then forces the keywiz to use the shifted code for that specific input?

Full instructions will be supplied with the adapters, but it is very simple to connect these if you are using crimp-on disconnects.

However, I personally still like the dual function shift button on the ipac better. Like HC I have my control panel configured without any "extra" function keys, I just use the ipac shifted codes for controlling mame. Although, I suppose 1 extra button wouldn't be the end of the world, I just prefer no extra...

No extra button is required.  The method I explained above works quite well in practice.  Just wanted make sure that was clear

RandyT - Any idea if your adapter would work on the Ipac for single button shifted inputs?

Refer to the forums for that product.  I believe that question was answered recently.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

http://www.ultimarc.com/messages/2111.html

For the lazy

[_Iz-]

I am confused and somewhat offended by your reluctance to explain how the keywiz's "special adapter" functions or even how it connects to the keywiz itself. You seem to be attempting to lead me to believe that it is "just magic". The ability to extend the number of inputs on the keywiz is (as I'm sure you already know) a major selling point for it. I would assume that someone proud of their product and it's "superior" design would not have to hide behind a veil of secrecy and would want to disseminate as much information about it in order to enable prospective purchasers to make an informed choice.

While I currently own an IPAC (it was the only "real" product available at the time I purchased it, Hagstrom's encoders are a joke IMHO) I will most definitely be building more cabinets in the future. I also know several people planning their own cabinets anxiously following the construction of my cabinet. Their buying decisions will be greatly influenced by my opinions.

I am very interested in your product but I am rapidly being turned off by your lack of information and cooperation.

[eightbit]

I, for example, refuse to have special "mame keys" on my control panel.  If I have to have a "shift key" put on special then I'm not getting it.  The idea is I want my cp to look like it could actually be on a real arcade machine.  If I have a row of function keys then it ruins that.  I figure a lot of people with faithful mame conversions of arcade cabinets feel the same way.  

In mame you can avoid the use of having to program your encoder to do a shifted function by programming any combination of buttons to do a certain function. You can even have a dedicated shift button if you want. You can even do more than 2 button combos if you want it to be difficult to get into your game setup menu you could set it for 3 keys.

In real arcade cabinets there were additional buttons for free play or credits or configuration. They were usually located inside the coin door. I definately agree with the less clutter philosphy. If keeping your panel authentic is a priority you could mount your shazzam key there. If you don't like reaching inside the coin door you could mount it on the side, under the marquee, under a overhang on the front of the cab.

Using Randys method you could squeeze out enough inputs on the 2 player keywiz to make an acceptable 4 player panel and still save money over buying a 2p Ipac. I would like to see it done, I'd like to try it even but I have a few projects right now consuming a lot of time so I don't know how soon I'll get to it.

On a related topic lets hear from those that have ordered and received keywiz's. Some of you must have gotten them by now. We can continue to speculate ad nauseum how good they are, but I want to hear from the people that have them.

[Tiger-Heli]

The amount of inputs and the way the shift/shazaam keys function have nothing to do with each other.  I had come to believe that the shazaam key could also be used as a regular key. Apparently that is not the case.    

So I take it back, the shazaam key isn't the same as the ipac shift key. It's WORSE  A dedicated shift key is a bad thing.. umm k.  You should at least have the option of using it as a dual function key.  

It's worse in the sense that you don't actually have 33 dedicated inputs, you have 32 plus shazaam, while the I-PAC has 28 including Shift.

I'll try to explain it this way:  If I have a four player-four button panel with the KeyWiz, I can still use the Shazaam key to provide shifted coin inputs for each player.

Let's say I have a 4-player 3-button CP with the I-PAC (28 input).  What button are you going to assign as the shift-key??? You don't have a P1 Start button any more b/c this button has been used for the play-action buttons.  You could assign P1B1 as SHIFT, place a centrally located button on the panel wired in Parallel to P1B1, and use this as a Shift button to activate Coin inputs, etc, but now you have another button on the panel, which is what you wanted to avoid and if accidentally pressed and released by itself, this generates the P1B1 key code.

I, for example, refuse to have special "mame keys" on my control panel.  If I have to have a "shift key" put on special then I'm not getting it.  The idea is I want my cp to look like it could actually be on a real arcade machine.  If I have a row of function keys then it ruins that.  I figure a lot of people with faithful mame conversions of arcade cabinets feel the same way.  

You don't need a row of function keys, you need one Shazaam! key that can access your other functions.  Use RandyT's adapters and you don't even need that!!!

This revelation has really offset the balance for me.  I can now say that the ipac is better than keywiz, although the keywiz would still be a good choice for budget projects.  

You can say that, but anyone can say anything.

If you want a 4-player 4-button panel, it can't be done with the I-PAC, it can with the KeyWiz.

If compact size is a factor, go with the KeyWiz.

If cost is the primary concern, go with the KeyWiz.

The KeyWiz has a screw terminal for +5V as opposed to tapping into a header row on the I-PAC (not that that's a major concern).

The KeyWiz supports (with adapters) using shifted keys without a dedicated button.

The shift function is different between the two units, you have to decide which way you like better (if it matters to you).

The software is different between the two units.

The I-PAC support USB.

The I-PAC has a dedicated keyboard pass-thru.  The KeyWiz Max pass-thru is an either/or affair.

The I-PAC supports LED's (although not super-bright ones and although they will flash when buttons 7 or 8 are pressed).  LED support will be added to the KeyWiz in a separate product.

No offense to RandyT, but the I-PAC has a longer history, was the first product of this type offered to the BYOAC community, and Andy's support of it has earned him the respect of many members of this forum.  Again, I'm not saying that RandyT won't support the KeyWiz.

I didn't mention speed of processors or buffers, b/c I haven't heard of this being a problem with either unit.

There are also other encoders with other features (MK series, ButtonBox, Hagstrom), but since the I-PAC and the KeyWiz are the most comparable, I am limiting the discussion to these two.

[RandyT]

I am confused and somewhat offended by your reluctance to explain how the keywiz's "special adapter" functions or even how it connects to the keywiz itself. You seem to be attempting to lead me to believe that it is "just magic". The ability to extend the number of inputs on the keywiz is (as I'm sure you already know) a major selling point for it. I would assume that someone proud of their product and it's "superior" design would not have to hide behind a veil of secrecy and would want to disseminate as much information about it in order to enable prospective purchasers to make an informed choice.

There are some things that a drawing says better than words.  A schematic is one of them .  The schematic would be included with the adapters.  Too often people aren't able to follow a written description and make false assumptions, as has happened here more than once.  It also sounds more complicated when written as opposed to a simple diagram.  Just trying to avoid these misconceptions.

But I guess I'll give it a shot anyway.

1)  There are 2 male spade disconnects and 1 female spade disconnect.

2)  The female pushes onto the N/O terminal of the switch you wish to make "special".

3)  One female gets connected to the "Shazaaam!" bus (in the case of several of these on a CP).

4)  The other female connects either directly to an input on the KeyWiz along with the switch that has the secondary code you want the special switch to be associated with,  or is chained off of that switch's N/O terminal.

And again, it's not as complicated as it sounds.


RandyT

[_Iz-]

RandyT, thank-you for your response.

This board supports the posting of images. You obviously have some sort of schematic ready as you have indicated the adapters are ready for purchase this evening and complete drawings/instructions will be shipped with them. If a drawing were that critical to your explanation could you not have posted one for us instead of forcing me to back you into a corner?

I'm still curious as to how it works at an electrical level. Can one of these adapters be made simply by the knowledgeable DIYer or are they more involved?

I have one more question, on your product information page for the keywiz, it's speed is discussed heavily. Would a button using the "special adapter" be as fast as a regular input or is there some delay involved?

[RandyT]

RandyT, thank-you for your response.

This board supports the posting of images. You obviously have some sort of schematic ready as you have indicated the adapters are ready for purchase this evening and complete drawings/instructions will be shipped with them. If a drawing were that critical to your explanation could you not have posted one for us instead of forcing me to back you into a corner?

I'm still curious as to how it works at an electrical level. Can one of these adapters be made simply by the knowledgeable DIYer or are they more involved?

Actually, the schematic is not ready yet.  That's why the adapters won't be on the site until later this evening.  I still have to make the documentation (always the last step, you know)

And yes, these can be made by a knowledgable DIY'er.

With an adapter that I build and test, I know that it will work properly if hooked up the way I specify.  If someone gets "creative" in the wiring process while building their own, this gets nearly impossible to support if problems arise.  For this reason, I don't wish to make the internals of the adapter public.  But if someone buys one and disects it, that's fine too, as long as I don't have to figure out what they did wrong when they decide to build their own and it doesn't work .

And no, no delays.  It responds just like a regular button.

RandyT

[Howard_Casto]

I, for example, refuse to have special "mame keys" on my control panel.  If I have to have a "shift key" put on special then I'm not getting it.  The idea is I want my cp to look like it could actually be on a real arcade machine.  If I have a row of function keys then it ruins that.  I figure a lot of people with faithful mame conversions of arcade cabinets feel the same way.  

You don't need a row of function keys, you need one Shazaam! key that can access your other functions.  Use RandyT's adapters and you don't even need that!!!

Exactly! Your not getting it... one single extra key is too many.  There isn't a "function" key on a real arcade machine and thus there isn't a function key on my control panel.  I'm guessing that this adaptor costs something, in which case the keywiz doesn't have the cost advantage anymore.  

As I said, it's worse......

And dude, I understood your example the first time.... that's an issue of the keywiz having more inputs than the ipac, and has nothing to do with how the shift function operates.   Besides, the ipac4 has more than enough inputs.... I've just been ignoring it as the cost is a little higher.  

[Silverwind]

Nope, I am in the US.  

Someone had said that the KeyWhiz would not get the customs charges because it was from the US, so I thought they were talking about US Customs.

I've ordered twice from ultimark and know personally of 2 other people that have ordered from Ultimark with no custom charges in the US. The only complaint I've heard is from Canada and they seem to inconsistantly charge a additional customs charge.

I ordered one from inside the US and there was no customs charge..

and yes so far i'm happy with my ipac4

[eightbit]

Exactly! Your not getting it... one single extra key is too many.  There isn't a "function" key on a real arcade machine and thus there isn't a function key on my control panel.  I'm guessing that this adaptor costs something, in which case the keywiz doesn't have the cost advantage anymore.  

As I said, it's worse......

Diffferent is a fact, worse is a matter of opinion. Another fact, there are function keys on arcade machines, just not on the control panel.

With Randys adapter you don't even need a dedicated function key. So it becomes a mute point. If the adapter is additional $'s to avoid the dedicated key the keywiz still retains the significant savings advantage. Even with enough "adapters" to do a 4 player panel the keywiz is still likely to be cheaper than a 2p Ipac, but we'll have to wait to confirm that till they are actually available to be ordered.

[u_rebelscum]

Sounds to me like the adapter is just a simple, pre-built Y-adapter to plug the button into two of keywiz's ports: a "normal" button port and the "shazzam" button port.  Just like hard wiring a button to player1 coin  & p1 start on the ipac.  Is this right?


my $0.02:
I don't mean this as flamebait but...
IMO, the shift and shazaam keys are almost useless in mame, since they're just doing something in hardware that mame can do in software.  Others have already posted in this thread that you can remap the keys in mame to do the same thing.  The hotrodse and it's ctrlr ini is a example of mame doing almost the same thing as those special keys do, without a special key, and with more flexabilty.  It defulats to P1 coin + P1 start equivelent to TAB, and P2 coin + P2 start equiv ESC.
UI_CONFIGURE          "KEYCODE_TAB | KEYCODE_1 KEYCODE_3"
UI_CANCEL             "KEYCODE_ESC | KEYCODE_2 KEYCODE_4"

Now, inside FE's and outside of mame in general, shift/shazaam can be very useful.  For example, you can get alt-F4 output,  with the special keys to exit programs & windows without having to wire a special key for F4.  In these cases, I like the idea of a key that only shifts/shazaams, small and hidden out of the way. *shrug*

[creepfactory]

Sooooooooooo How much is the Keywiz, and are they READY, tested and working. I am sorry but the Ipac WORKS, Andy is GREAT on getting stuff out, and man it is just plain proven. Maybe Keywiz will be the next ultimarc, but maybe they will be the next T-stick or other companies that can't deliver. I am not saying Keywiz can't deliver, just has not yet, and you can get an Ipac TODAY ordered and in your hands in a few days. Not trying to be a spoil sport and I encourage competition, but the site isnt near finished either, Andys is up and running for a long time, I personally wouldn't put up a site untill all of it is up, but I am willing to try the Keywiz, but can't find if its for sale yet or where to buy. But keeping optimistic!

[SirPoonga]

Sooooooooooo How much is the Keywiz, and are they READY, tested and working. I am sorry but the Ipac WORKS, Andy is GREAT on getting stuff out, and man it is just plain proven. Maybe Keywiz will be the next ultimarc, but maybe they will be the next T-stick or other companies that can't deliver. I am not saying Keywiz can't deliver, just has not yet, and you can get an Ipac TODAY ordered and in your hands in a few days. Not trying to be a spoil sport and I encourage competition, but the site isnt near finished either, Andys is up and running for a long time, I personally wouldn't put up a site untill all of it is up, but I am willing to try the Keywiz, but can't find if its for sale yet or where to buy. But keeping optimistic!

SMACK!

Keywiz is brand new, released, what, 1-2 weeks ago.  It's in the US, you will get it in your hands faster than an IPAC if you live in the US.

Did you not see the annoucement on the main page that the keywiz is ready?  Click on the www link on RandyT's profile.

[SirPoonga]

Now, inside FE's and outside of mame in general, shift/shazaam can be very useful.  For example, you can get alt-F4 output,  with the special keys to exit programs & windows without having to wire a special key for F4.  In these cases, I like the idea of a key that only shifts/shazaams, small and hidden out of the way. *shrug*

Or map to keys you normally don't use in mame but in other arcade or pc software.

I have P1B1 mapped to Enter (very useful) and the shift to tab which is also very useful outside of mame.

When does mame recognize the input, on the keypress?
so in mame say, like me, you have pause as your shift function on the ipac.  In mame to do tab on my cp I just use shift p1b1 on the ipac.  if it was mapped in mame to do the same thing but in software it would pause the game first.  Soemthing I don't want as we know the issues with pausing a game and configing controls.

[RandyT]

Sooooooooooo How much is the Keywiz, and are they READY, tested and working. I am sorry but the Ipac WORKS, Andy is GREAT on getting stuff out, and man it is just plain proven. Maybe Keywiz will be the next ultimarc, but maybe they will be the next T-stick or other companies that can't deliver. I am not saying Keywiz can't deliver, just has not yet, and you can get an Ipac TODAY ordered and in your hands in a few days. Not trying to be a spoil sport and I encourage competition, but the site isnt near finished either, Andys is up and running for a long time, I personally wouldn't put up a site untill all of it is up, but I am willing to try the Keywiz, but can't find if its for sale yet or where to buy. But keeping optimistic!

Huh?

The store has been open for over a week now, and we've already shipped about 2 dozen units

Maybe you have to refresh your browser?

The hardware has been finalized for close to a month now and has been rigorously tested by a number of individuals.  I have a unit here that hasn't been removed from power for close to that entire time.  No problems.

We're working on the site as we get time.  The KeyWiz area has been fully functional from the time we went live.  Should have most of the other stuff fixed by this weekend sometime.

Just click on the cart in the upper right corner of the screen to get to the store.  Clicking on the KeyWiz logo will take you to the KeyWiz section.

RandyT

[eightbit]

Creep Randy has been shipping for 2 weeks now. His website isn't totally fleshed out but the keywiz stuff is complete and the shopping cart is open and working. He's even selling some accessorys other than the keywiz.

Or map to keys you normally don't use in mame but in other arcade or pc software.

I have P1B1 mapped to Enter (very useful) and the shift to tab which is also very useful outside of mame.

When does mame recognize the input, on the keypress?
so in mame say, like me, you have pause as your shift function on the ipac.  In mame to do tab on my cp I just use shift p1b1 on the ipac.  if it was mapped in mame to do the same thing but in software it would pause the game first.  Soemthing I don't want as we know the issues with pausing a game and configing controls.

The key is sent on key down. As with all interfaces you need to plan your buttons and inputs wisely.

[SirPoonga]

The key is sent on key down. As with all interfaces you need to plan your buttons and inputs wisely.

Right, but in order for the IPAC shift to work it has to detect if you are holding it or not so it doesn't quite send the keypress right away.  Therefore the char 'p' (my pause key) does not get sent when I hold the shift key down.  That's my point, if I map it in software p will get sent to mame.


RandyT, your site has some confusing problems.  First, the shopping cart to get to the store.  That's the ONLY way to get tot he store.  I couldn't find the store right away because a shopping cart icon is generally used to show your shopping cart, not to got the store.  I was expecting something on the keywiz info pages like "Add to shopping cart" when I saw the shopping cart in the top of the screen.

Second, this wording is weird. "Want to send a Shazaaam! keycode with only one click? These special adapters will make it happen.  Order 1 for each switch you want to have this feature."  Do you have an info page that explains that in more detail?  Put a link to it in the shopping cart description then.  I didn't realize the functionality of this until I talked aobut it in IRC.

[RandyT]

RandyT, your site has some confusing problems.  First, the shopping cart to get to the store.  That's the ONLY way to get tot he store.  I couldn't find the store right away because a shopping cart icon is generally used to show your shopping cart, not to got the store.  I was expecting something on the keywiz info pages like "Add to shopping cart" when I saw the shopping cart in the top of the screen.

The store script does have this feature and I will implement it on the description pages.  It's another one of those things I haven't gotten to yet.  Getting the store set up the way I wanted took a lot more time and effort than I expected (mainly because I wanted to customize the look), and I think I'm pretty much happy with it.  So now I can start to look at some of the other parts of the site.

Sorry if the cart thing is confusing.  I wanted that button to be a fixture on all the pages, and that includes the ones where there isn't anything for sale.  Originally I did want it to show the cart.  Just not sure if that's something I can make the script do.  I'll look into it, and If I can, I'll change it and put the web store link on one of the "tabs" at the top of the screen.

Second, this wording is weird. "Want to send a Shazaaam! keycode with only one click? These special adapters will make it happen.  Order 1 for each switch you want to have this feature."  Do you have an info page that explains that in more detail?  Put a link to it in the shopping cart description then.  I didn't realize the functionality of this until I talked aobut it in IRC.

Agreed.  I'll have a complete page up on that shortly.  I just threw that up there quickly so those that may have been following the discussions here would have the option of including them with their order.  A link will definitely be in the item description, as well as from the main KeyWiz info pages.

Thanks for the observations.
RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

Sounds to me like the adapter is just a simple, pre-built Y-adapter to plug the button into two of keywiz's ports: a "normal" button port and the "shazzam" button port.  Just like hard wiring a button to player1 coin  & p1 start on the ipac.  Is this right?

Not quite, read -Iz- (sp?) post further up this thread.  There's an electronic component involved and I think -Iz- gave away more than RandyT wanted to about it.  (And I won't say anything more).

my $0.02:
I don't mean this as flamebait but...
IMO, the shift and shazaam keys are almost useless in mame, since they're just doing something in hardware that mame can do in software.

Not taken as flamebait, but this is an opportunity to show off how the keys are different.  (BTW, I made the same argument as you years ago).

First with the I-PAC (AW pointed this out to me long ago) and I will steal the data from my keyboard hacks page.

***

Lack of shift key support - The I-PAC includes several special "shift key" functions which are designed to reduce the number of buttons required on the control panel. For example, pressing the 1 key and the 2 key together simulates ESC and exits MAME. Since R36B13, MAME allows key combinations and multiple assignments to be made to each input. Therefore, from the MAME Input (General) menu, selecting UI CANCEL = "1 2 or ESC" accomplishes the same thing.

Caveat One: The I-PAC includes this functionality in the controller code, so this feature will also work using it on emulators which do not support key remapping.

Caveat Two: Key remapping in MAME does not exactly mimic the I-PAC shift functions. The differences and the results are as follows:

On the I-PAC, if you press the shift key nothing happens until you release it. Then it either sends it's own code (1) or (if you have pressed another key) the shift code. If you map the same combinations in MAME, you will always get the first key send followed by the combination key send. The effect of this for each shift key function is as follows:

Coin Input: The I-PAC uses 1 and P1B1 keys to mimic coin input. In MAME, from the attract screen, if you map this combination, the first coin input will register. If you try to input a second coin, the game will start a 1-player game, because MAME reads the 1 key first. Therefore, you will never be able to start a two player game. For this reason, I recommend having a dedicated coin input key on your panel if using a keyboard hack. (You CAN get around this from the attract screen for most games by pressing the P1B1 key FIRST, followed by the 1 key; but a dedicated key is the easier solution).

ESC: The I-PAC uses the 1 and 2 player start keys to mimic ESC. In MAME, the game will either quit immediately or will start a one or two player game and then immediately quit. This is perfectly acceptable and I recommend mapping these keys if you don?t want a dedicated escape key.

Pause: The I-PAC uses the 1 and J1 Down key to mimic Pause. In MAME, if you are on the attract screen with credits already input, MAME will start a new game before pausing the game (assuming you press the 1 key first). If you are in one of the game playing screens MAME will pause properly unless you press the J1 Down key first, in which case the player position will move down slightly before the game pauses. This is acceptable, although I personally prefer a dedicated Pause key so that I don?t have to remember key combinations when I need to stop gameplay at a critical point.

Tilde and Tab: The I-PAC uses the 1 and J1 Up or J1 Right keys, respectively, to map these functions. These keys will function the same way as the Pause key above. See the section on assigning key for my personal key mapping recommendations on these keys.


Enter: The I-PAC uses 1 and J1 LEFT to mimic this key. This will work in MAME. This key is only used in MAME for items on the Configuration or On Screen Display Menus. The only difference between using this key in MAME is that the if you enter these menus without pausing the game, the player may move left while you are hitting enter! You are not likely to do this, though. Again, see the key mapping section for my personal recommendations on this key.

****

(To be continued)

[Tiger-Heli]

(continued)

I agree with HC that IN PRACTICE there is not much difference between the KeyWiz and using a DEDICATED shift button on the I-PAC, other than I have 32 remaining inputs on the KeyWiz and only 27 on the I-PAC (and 27 is one input shy of a 4-player 3-button panel).

The Shazaam! button does not work the same and doesn't work the same as assigning multiple inputs in MAME.  For example,

The Shazaam! button works with another button on Key Down, the I-PAC shift function works on Key Release.  Also, we had all heard the horror stories of how pressing P1 Start and P2 Start at the same time ends a game with the I-PAC (and this happens more often if you just map 1&2 to UI EXIT in MAME, because this is sent immediately).  A shazaam! button eliminates this b/c it only sends the shifted input, and so there is no possibility of accidently sending a shift key by pressing the wrong key combination (there is no Shazaam function assigned to another button, which I could accidentally press in normal gameplay).

A further advantage of RandyT's design are the adapters mentioned above.  Using this method, for example, I can have all 32 KeyWiz buttons assigned to inputs.  Now I add a button for Coin1 and map it to Shazaam!-P1B2="5" (and the same theory applies for Coins 2 through 4, Start 1 through 4, Pause, and Escape).  The disadvantage is that when I insert a coin, the P1B2 action also occurs, so the P1 character jumps.  However, I have no extra buttons on my Panel and more importantly, I just press the Coin1 button to insert a coin, without having to remember "ok, now I want to put a coin in, so I need to press Shazaam! and then P1B2, because that's where my shift input is".

RandyT, please advise if I misunderstood how the adapters work.  

[RandyT]

\
 The disadvantage is that when I insert a coin, the P1B2 action also occurs, so the P1 character jumps.  However, I have no extra buttons on my Panel and more importantly, I just press the Coin1 button to insert a coin, without having to remember "ok, now I want to put a coin in, so I need to press Shazaam! and then P1B2, because that's where my shift input is".

RandyT, please advise if I misunderstood how the adapters work.  

You were close!  But the first line of the above paragraph is incorrect.

The only time this would send an additional keycode, is if you were trying to use one of your "special" buttons as a dual purpose button.  You could never have the scenario of P1 "jumping" as that function would not be assigned to a Shazaaam! keycode.   An example:

1)  You have your "P1Start" button wired as a "special" button, which means that it is shared with a normal input whose "Shazaaam!" keycode is ";"  You would also set up your application so that ";" performed the function you wanted associated with "P1Start".

2) Pressing this button by itself immediately sends ";", with no delays and no other keycodes.  Unless you are at the main screen with credits racked up, this will do nothing.  As this is an "odd" character, chances are next to nil that this will have any effect in an outside application either.

3) If you press another button, while holding this one down, the Shazaaam! keycode for the other button is sent immediately and on key down.

4) You can hit as many keys as you want while holding the "P1Start" button down to send as many Shazaaam! keycodes as you like.

5) In this manner, "P1Start" can take the place of a dedicated Shazaaam! button.  The only extra character that would ever be sent when used as described above would be the ";" character, which wouldn't do anything except in a very specific circumstance.

If you have separate "special" buttons for every extra feature you want to use, you could basically forget that the Shazaaam! even exists.  In other words, it works to do what you want it to, but you don't have to think about it .  No extra keycodes are sent when set up this way.

If I'm still not being clear on this, please let me know.  It's important that folks understand how this works and the benefits it provides   .

Randy

[Tiger-Heli]

I think I have it, and I think I see a problem:

My idea was, for example, to have P1B4-Shazaam! set up as COIN1="4", P4B4-Shazaam! Set up as Coin4="8", and have the Coin Buttons wired up as special buttons.

My incorrect assumption was that when I pressed the COIN1 Button, the KeyWiz would send LShift first and then 4.

If I understand correctly, pressing Coin1 will immediately send ONLY "4" (as desired), but if I press Coin1 and Player 4 simultaneously presses --BINGO! Either that, or I was attempting to say "before" but it was too many letters to type--, "8" (coin4) will be sent instead of P4B4.

This could be disastrous if one of my Shazaam buttons is mapped to Escape or Pause :-((

Do I have it right now?

[rampy]

Well.. FWIW I just ordered one.. and I will do a review.  I do not have an ipac to compare it to (just a sidewinder hack)... but I can be a reasonable test case for ease of installation, ease of use... compatibility, etc...

So... Randy quit posting messages and go process my order (just teasing) =P

Rampy

[RandyT]

I think I have it, and I think I see a problem:

My idea was, for example, to have P1B4-Shazaam! set up as COIN1="4", P4B4-Shazaam! Set up as Coin4="8", and have the Coin Buttons wired up as special buttons.

My incorrect assumption was that when I pressed the COIN1 Button, the KeyWiz would send LShift first and then 4.

If I understand correctly, pressing Coin1 will immediately send ONLY "4" (as desired), but if I press Coin1 and Player 4 simultaneously presses --BINGO! Either that, or I was attempting to say "before" but it was too many letters to type--, "8" (coin4) will be sent instead of P4B4.

This could be disastrous if one of my Shazaam buttons is mapped to Escape or Pause :-((

Do I have it right now?

Yes, this is correct.

But since the Shazaaam! feature supports multiple simultaneous keypresses, you could have those functions mapped in software so they wouldn't trigger unless 2, 3 or more specific buttons were pressed at the same time.

Which leads me to another way the dual-purpose key can be set up in software.  In the example I gave earlier, the dual purpose button was mapped to ";".  If the software you are using supports multiple key mappings, you could make every extra feature to equal ";" + (keycode).  No extra keycodes.

RandyT

[Kane]

Well.. FWIW I just ordered one.. and I will do a review.  I do not have an ipac to compare it to (just a sidewinder hack)... but I can be a reasonable test case for ease of installation, ease of use... compatibility, etc...

So... Randy quit posting messages and go process my order (just teasing) =P

Rampy

I think I would be a better test subject for "ease of use". I should be receiving mine today or tomorrow. I have NO prior experience in things of this nature

[rampy]

Well.. FWIW I just ordered one.. and I will do a review.  I do not have an ipac to compare it to (just a sidewinder hack)... but I can be a reasonable test case for ease of installation, ease of use... compatibility, etc...

So... Randy quit posting messages and go process my order (just teasing) =P

Rampy

I think I would be a better test subject for "ease of use". I should be receiving mine today or tomorrow. I have NO prior experience in things of this nature

Well as long as you write up something... I'm sure plenty of people have received non-beta key wiz units that they've paid for but I've seen nary a review posted (either informally as a post here, or as a "feature" on a website)

I'm saying I'm gonna write something up and take a pic or two and put it up...  and I plan on following through on that.

It would be cool if you have the time/inclination to do the same before I get mine especially with your "ground floor experience" level (I hope that came out right).  I look forward to hearing yours (and others) first hand experiences with the Key Wiz...


Know what I mean?

Rampy

[Tiger-Heli]

Yes, this is correct.

But since the Shazaaam! feature supports multiple simultaneous keypresses, you could have those functions mapped in software so they wouldn't trigger unless 2, 3 or more specific buttons were pressed at the same time.

Okay, now I don't quite follow!!!

My idea was to have a button for ESC (wired with your adapter to Shazaam! and P2B5).  The problem came if I pressed a different Shazaam! function and also pressed P2B5, the game would exit.  If I follow correctly, I could have the software set up so Shazaam! and P2B4, P2B5 AND P2B6 together pressed Escape.  But I don't want to press three buttons together to end the game!

Is it possible to use one button with 3 of the adapters wired together to do what you are suggesting?

Another idea a friend and I were kicking around: what if the Shazaam! key only accepted one input per press and wouldn't read any more inputs until the Shazaam! button was released and pressed again.

Then, using my previous example, you could not press Coin 1 (Shazaam! P1B4) and Coin2 (Shazaam! P2B4) at the same time, but pressing Coin1 and P2B4 would work fine and there would be no way to accidentally exit the game from an unintentionally Shazaam! (Coin1 and P2B5) key combination.

Could this be done in software, or maybe through a jumper on the board (Pins 1-2= multiple Shazaam! presses, Pins 2-3 = single Shazaam! presses), or would the whole board need to be redesigned (and multiple Shazaam! presses disabled) to accomodate this?

[Kane]

[quote author=rampy
Well as long as you write up something... I'm sure plenty of people have received non-beta key wiz units that they've paid for but I've seen nary a review posted (either informally as a post here, or as a "feature" on a website)

I'm saying I'm gonna write something up and take a pic or two and put it up...  and I plan on following through on that.

It would be cool if you have the time/inclination to do the same before I get mine especially with your "ground floor experience" level (I hope that came out right).  I look forward to hearing yours (and others) first hand experiences with the Key Wiz...


Know what I mean?

Rampy

I do plan on taking pics and writing up a quick "review" for us on the "ground floor" I'll post a link when all is said and done, probably tomorrow night or sometime on Saturday.

[Tiger-Heli]

Just to clarify:

If I understand correctly, there are two ways to make a Special Button, one is the example Randy gave with the ";" and the P1 Start button, which gives you a similar situation to the I-PAC except that the Shift function occurs on KeyDown.

What I am asking about is a way to mount one button that only send another button's shifted function, which I thought the adapters will allow.

Followup-Question:  Assuming you can have this button mapped to multiple inputs is it possible to do something like this (except RandyT already told me the direction inputs can't be shifted), but.  I remap input A to UP and input B to down and connect these to the Joystick switches.  Now I assign Shazaam! A and B to Esc.  Then I wire my button with adapters to the Joystick UP and Down switches.  Since a joystick can't be up and down at the same time, there is no way to accidentally exit the game, but the button will exit.  Would this work?

[RandyT]

My idea was to have a button for ESC (wired with your adapter to Shazaam! and P2B5).  The problem came if I pressed a different Shazaam! function and also pressed P2B5, the game would exit.  If I follow correctly, I could have the software set up so Shazaam! and P2B4, P2B5 AND P2B6 together pressed Escape.  But I don't want to press three buttons together to end the game!

Is it possible to use one button with 3 of the adapters wired together to do what you are suggesting?

You know,  I hadn't thought about that, but I don't see why it wouldn't

Another idea a friend and I were kicking around: what if the Shazaam! key only accepted one input per press and wouldn't read any more inputs until the Shazaam! button was released and pressed again.

Then, using my previous example, you could not press Coin 1 (Shazaam! P1B4) and Coin2 (Shazaam! P2B4) at the same time, but pressing Coin1 and P2B4 would work fine and there would be no way to accidentally exit the game from an unintentionally Shazaam! (Coin1 and P2B5) key combination.

Could this be done in software, or maybe through a jumper on the board (Pins 1-2= multiple Shazaam! presses, Pins 2-3 = single Shazaam! presses), or would the whole board need to be redesigned (and multiple Shazaam! presses disabled) to accomodate this?

Jumpers = lost inputs.  The KeyWiz was purposely designed to allow multiple simultaneous Shazaaam! keypresses as I feel that this gives the unit the most flexibility.  It comes down to a choice between two undesireable aspects.  

1) No Blocking (KeyWiz method).  No blocking means some things might happen with certain combinations that you don't want.  But it also lets any number of keypresses be registered at the same time, which is desireable.  There are also options to minimize any issues inherent to this method.

Example:  A switch on a coin door is set-up as a "special" switch.  You drop a token in while someone is pressing the button with ESC as a secondary.  The program exits.  Change the exit function to a 2 or 3 button combo, problem solved.

2) Blocking - Blocking can keep undesireable things from happening, but can also keep desireable things from happening.  This lets one thing happen and that's it!  No options, no flexibility.  No "workarounds", nothing.  Just blocking.

Example:  A switch on a coin door is set-up as a "special" switch.  You drop a token in while someone is pressing the button with ESC as a secondary.  The program doesn't exit, but your token went to never-land without giving you a credit.  No solution because the inputs are exclusive.


The only real solution to all of this is to pay twice as much for a controller with more inputs.


RandyT

[RandyT]

What I am asking about is a way to mount one button that only send another button's shifted function, which I thought the adapters will allow.

Think of the Shazaaam! feature as a shift key on a keyboard (it's not because it does more, but nonetheless).  When the Shazaaam! button, or "special" button with the adapter is pressed, all buttons are temporarily re-mapped  to equal their Shazaaam! definitions, until you release the button.  That is why only "non-control" functions should be mapped to these.  This aspect is the same regardless of the encoder used.

Followup-Question:  Assuming you can have this button mapped to multiple inputs is it possible to do something like this (except RandyT already told me the direction inputs can't be shifted), but.  I remap input A to UP and input B to down and connect these to the Joystick switches.  Now I assign Shazaam! A and B to Esc.  Then I wire my button with adapters to the Joystick UP and Down switches.  Since a joystick can't be up and down at the same time, there is no way to accidentally exit the game, but the button will exit.  Would this work?

If you have 4 control sticks, 2 of them will have Shazaaam! definitions assigned to each of their inputs.

So yes, what you described will work fine!

RandyT

[Kane]

ok guys, I received my buttons and Keywhiz yesterday and began wiring things up. I will have all of it hooked up tonight and will be posting my reveiw of the Keywhiz first thing in the morning, or before I hit the sack tonight. I am recruiting my daughter to help "torture" test the Keywhiz

[_Iz-]

Did you get any of the "special Y adapters" with your order? If yes, please include your take on the 1 button shifted combos in your review. And if you wanted to dissect one Y adapter and tell us how they're made that'd be great too!    However, I'm reasonably sure the "integrated electronic component" is 2 diodes...

[Kane]

I did not get any y adapters as they just became available and I placed my order last Saturday.

[_Iz-]

Bummer...  

Inquiring minds want to know...  

[Howard_Casto]

Just to clarify:

If I understand correctly, there are two ways to make a Special Button, one is the example Randy gave with the ";" and the P1 Start button, which gives you a similar situation to the I-PAC except that the Shift function occurs on KeyDown.

What I am asking about is a way to mount one button that only send another button's shifted function, which I thought the adapters will allow.

Followup-Question:  Assuming you can have this button mapped to multiple inputs is it possible to do something like this (except RandyT already told me the direction inputs can't be shifted), but.  I remap input A to UP and input B to down and connect these to the Joystick switches.  Now I assign Shazaam! A and B to Esc.  Then I wire my button with adapters to the Joystick UP and Down switches.  Since a joystick can't be up and down at the same time, there is no way to accidentally exit the game, but the button will exit.  Would this work?

Tiger I think you are starting to see the problem I have with the shazaam key.  As you can see andy was correct in putting in the delay in the shift function and it was well thought out.  

Also just for the record, and only for the record, randy's excuses of not doing things to "prevent key blocking" or "increase the number of simultanious keys pressed" is another one of those vaporware features I was talking about.  

Has anyone EVER had any trouble with the ipac not registering enough keypresses?  How about key blocking?  How about the ipac 4?  Before you look it up the answer is no, they have not.  

And that's been my point all along... you can't call something a feature when it doesn't do anything.  You can't say something performs better when the original already preformed as well as the related hardware will allow.  

[_Iz-]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that using the adapters to extend the keywiz's inputs is just a bad idea.

Other than as dedicated MAME/emu function keys the only place they can really be used is for non-essential inputs, like coin-up and start. (keep reading for why)

Even using them for coin and start can cause some serious problems. Say you've created a 4 player panel (4 buttons per) and are using Y adapters to extend the keywiz to get the coin and start buttons for each player. Whenever someone presses a coin or start button ALL buttons on the panel are shifted for however long the button is held. In a 4 player game this can wreak havoc on the other 3 players who are still mashing away! Yes, you can minimize this by making everyone's 3rd and 4th buttons the shifted coin and start and program 1 and 2 to have the same shifted/nonshifted code but the problem exists. What if player 2, 3 or 4 try and coin or start at the same time player 1 sticks left or right? Then you're into another codeset altogether! Scary! Not a good option except for the truly broke or desperate. (If you're that broke you probably shouldn't be making a 4 player arcade cabinet). Trying to use them for even more frequently used functions (like actual player buttons or even combo's) is just begging for problems...

Now, this is not to say it isn't an acceptable product for a 2 player panel, I just couldn't recommend it for a 4 player, even for someone really trying to keep costs down and I wouldn't want to use the Y adapters for much more than producing a 1 button "esc" or "tab" (not that I want those buttons on my cab anyway, I prefer them hidden as secondary functions).

[RandyT]

Other than as dedicated MAME/emu function keys the only place they can really be used is for non-essential inputs, like coin-up and start. (keep reading for why)

I believe I said that myself

Even using them for coin and start can cause some serious problems. Say you've created a 4 player panel (4 buttons per) and are using Y adapters to extend the keywiz to get the coin and start buttons for each player. Whenever someone presses a coin or start button ALL buttons on the panel are shifted for however long the button is held. In a 4 player game this can wreak havoc on the other 3 players who are still mashing away! Yes, you can minimize this by making everyone's 3rd and 4th buttons the shifted coin and start and program 1 and 2 to have the same shifted/nonshifted code but the problem exists. What if player 2, 3 or 4 try and coin or start at the same time player 1 sticks left or right? Then you're into another codeset altogether! Scary! Not a good option except for the truly broke or desperate. (If you're that broke you probably shouldn't be making a 4 player arcade cabinet). Trying to use them for even more frequently used functions (like actual player buttons or even combo's) is just begging for problems...

I never said these should ever be used as actual player buttons.  In fact, just the opposite.

Also in the example you gave, if "blocking" was employed, the 3 players that were mashing buttons would have to stop screwing around on the panel anyway or your "coin up" wouldn't register.  You could mash that button all day long and if that control panel wasn't dead-idle you'd never even make it into shift mode.

I don't see the big advantage doing it that way.

Now, this is not to say it isn't an acceptable product for a 2 player panel, I just couldn't recommend it for a 4 player, even for someone really trying to keep costs down and I wouldn't want to use the Y adapters for much more than producing a 1 button "esc" or "tab" (not that I want those buttons on my cab anyway, I prefer them hidden as secondary functions).

That's really all they are there for.  The adapters aren't magic and they can't change the way the Shazaaam! function works.  All they can do is give it to you with a single press rather than 2.  Everything else stays the same.

The KeyWiz can do a 4 player panel, but it will never be the same as a product that costs twice as much.  Howard is now starting to make comparisons to the IPAC4.  *punt*  

I haven't tried to pull any wool over anyone's eyes here.  I've done my best to answer questions, even in the face of obvious attacks on the product by someone who has never seen it or used it (that's you, Howard).

For those that don't know, there's been some "bad blood" between Howard and myself in the past.  The only thing I can surmise at this point is that his sometimes incoherent criticism of the KeyWiz stems from this.  Looking at recent posts, it's become obvious that he isn't even reading the threads before making those criticisms.  

For those who look at Howard as their mentor, you might want to consider the destructive effects of his actions.  Ask yourself how many options you might have for things you would like to do if there weren't individuals like this who offer little to the community other than criticism of the work of others.  

This will be my last post here regarding KeyWiz.  A number of them have shipped and that includes to some regulars on this site (including the Owner, it's good to be the King )  I expect they will offer their opinions soon.

As always, I'll keep adding to the discussion of other topics and try to be as informative and helpful as I can.  

If you have a question about the KeyWiz, come to the site and drop me an Email.  I'll be happy to talk to you.

Thank You and Goodnight .

RandyT

[_Iz-]

Hey, I wouldn't want blocking either and never suggested it (althought I am aware one other person did).

Anyway, I'm just trying to wrap my own head around the advantages and disadvantages of the keywiz (and doing it fairly publicly   ).

Thanks Randy for your patience and replies, I'm looking forward to the forthcoming user reviews.

[OSCAR]

A number of them have shipped and that includes to some regulars on this site (including the Owner, it's good to be the King )  I expect they will offer their opinions soon.

Hopefully saint gets around to offering his opinion on the KeyWiz quicker than he is on the Pro spinner I sent him, oooh, about 5 months ago now.  Still waiting on that review...  


Just kidding, John, take your time.  

 

[Tiger-Heli]

Tiger I think you are starting to see the problem I have with the shazaam key.  As you can see andy was correct in putting in the delay in the shift function and it was well thought out.  

I agree with you that Shift keys in general are bad and the best option is to buy an encoder with enough inputs that you don't need to use shifted inputs.  OTOH, I feel that Randy's implementation of the Shift function is better than any other encoder on the market, but it comes down to whatever you want the function to do.

Also just for the record, and only for the record, randy's excuses of not doing things to "prevent key blocking" or "increase the number of simultanious keys pressed" is another one of those vaporware features I was talking about.  

Randy was responding to a post that I made asking for blocking of additional inputs when the shazaam! key was pressed.  He wasn't saying that key blocking was a problem with the I-PAC.  He was merely responding to my questions.

And that's been my point all along... you can't call something a feature when it doesn't do anything.  You can't say something performs better when the original already preformed as well as the related hardware will allow.  

Yes, you can!  It just doesn't mean anything!!!  A Hayabusa (motorcycle) will go almost 200 mph, an Interceptor tops out around 140.  The Hayabusa performs better, but if you aren't stoplight racing or going more than double the U.S. speed limit, it doesn't matter.

The claims about number of simultaneous keypresses and processor speed fall into this category, but it is helpful to quantify this things to show that the product isn't merely a standard keyboard encoder chip with some terminal strips added.  The other features clearly differentiate the unit from the competing products.

To me, the biggest consideration is what games can I play with it, and what games am I unable to play with it.  In this category, the KeyWiz has a big advantage over the I-PAC/2 and is comparable to the MK40.

[Tiger-Heli]

Hi _Iz-,

I am considering using the adapters for coin and start and also pause and escape, but you make some valid points that I hadn't considered.  I still think it is workable.  (Read on).

Other than as dedicated MAME/emu function keys the only place they can really be used is for non-essential inputs, like coin-up and start. (keep reading for why)

Right, that's been said many times!

Whenever someone presses a coin or start button ALL buttons on the panel are shifted for however long the button is held. In a 4 player game this can wreak havoc on the other 3 players who are still mashing away!

It wouldn't be that bad, ideally, the worst thing that might happen is Player 3 might have a missed shot or a coin input himself instead of a shot.  I could deal with that.

Yes, you can minimize this by making everyone's 3rd and 4th buttons the shifted coin and start and program 1 and 2 to have the same shifted/nonshifted code but the problem exists.

Good point, you better program ALL the non-shifted (that aren't used for coin/start etc when shifted) buttons to have the same shifted/nonshifted code (joystick directionals too).

What if player 2, 3 or 4 try and coin or start at the same time player 1 sticks left or right?
Then you're into another codeset altogether! Scary!

Excellent point that I hadn't even considered!!! RandyT, is there any way to add an option in software (or otherwise) to disable the joystick code switching to avoid this?

I wouldn't want to use the Y adapters for much more than producing a 1 button "esc" or "tab" (not that I want those buttons on my cab anyway, I prefer them hidden as secondary functions).

Here's a caution and a workaround which RandyT pointed out to me.  BE VERY CAREFUL HAVING A SHIFTED FUNCTION FOR COIN INPUT AND ESCAPE.

Let's say Player 4 button 4 shifted is mapped to escape.  Player 1 goes to insert a coin, Player 4 continues playing and presses button 4 and . . .  GAME OVER!!!

Here's the solution:  P1B7 and P1B8 are used as Joystick 3 Up and Down on my panel.  They are assigned to C and V, whether shifted or non-shifted.  They cannot be pressed at the same time, because a joystick cannot be both up and down simultaneously.  However, I can use two special adapters to map the ESC button on the panel to Shazaam! P1B7 and P1B8.  Now in MAME, I set my ctrl.ini file to "UI EXIT   Keycode_ESC  | Keycode_C Keycode_V"  (the KEYCODE_ESC is kept as I plan a desktop controller and might want to use the keyboard occasionally, you could make it just "C and V" otherwise).

[Tiger-Heli]

Howard is now starting to make comparisons to the IPAC4.  *punt*  

Howard's comparing it to the I-PAC/4, I'm comparing it to the MK40.  The KeyWiz is in some pretty good company now.  RandyT, you should be proud.  Those considering a KeyWiz, you should take notice!!!!

Note: this isn't a blanket endorsement - there are some features I would really miss having on the KeyWiz (LED Support, dedicated pass-thru, USB support), however the unit is very well thought out and very attractively priced.  We've been through the reasons that the unit doesn't have these features and whether I agree or not is irrelevant at this point.

The KeyWiz will not be for everyone, but it's definitely one to consider!!!

[_Iz-]

Here's a caution and a workaround which RandyT pointed out to me.  BE VERY CAREFUL HAVING A SHIFTED FUNCTION FOR COIN INPUT AND ESCAPE.

Let's say Player 4 button 4 shifted is mapped to escape.  Player 1 goes to insert a coin, Player 4 continues playing and presses button 4 and . . .  GAME OVER!!!

Here's the solution:  P1B7 and P1B8 are used as Joystick 3 Up and Down on my panel.  They are assigned to C and V, whether shifted or non-shifted.  They cannot be pressed at the same time, because a joystick cannot be both up and down simultaneously.  However, I can use two special adapters to map the ESC button on the panel to Shazaam! P1B7 and P1B8.  Now in MAME, I set my ctrl.ini file to "UI EXIT   Keycode_ESC  | Keycode_C Keycode_V"  (the KEYCODE_ESC is kept as I plan a desktop controller and might want to use the keyboard occasionally, you could make it just "C and V" otherwise).

This works great for MAME but what about outside MAME? Most other emulators and front ends don't support this.

[Kane]

Sorry I'm so late with this guys. I was gonna do a small site but before I finished the page the damn computer crashed and I wasn't starting over. The following are just my thoughts and opinions if you have questions send me an email.-

I ordered the KeyWiz Max from http://www.groovygamegear.com/.
First of all, let me state that I have absolutely NO prior experience in wiring of any keyboard encoder or buttons. With that said lets get on with my thoughts.

First things first, the encoder came well packaged in a USPS priority mail box. In the box were the Encoder, an instruction sheet, floppy diskette, 6ft. PS/2 cable and a receipt.
Hook-up of the encoder took only about 10 minutes (2 joysticks and 18 buttons). The first problem I noticed was some of  the terminal screws were very tight, almost too tight. A few times I thought I was gonna crack the encoder trying to hold it and turn the screws. Once all screws were loosened the rest was a breeze.
After hooking all the wires up I inserted the floppy to install the software and there was the second problem. This error may be because of the version of windows I was running, or something else but I received a

[rampy]

Hey Kane,

Thanks for doing a write up.  Glad you were able to get yours up and running with only minimal/solvable issues.

Of course, we probably won't hear from you for days now that your controls are wired =P

rampy

[_Iz-]

Days? I think you mean weeks...  

Kane, are you in Canada? Did you get dinged for Duty or Brokerage? How much?

[Kane]

Not in Canada- in Pennsylvania

On a side note I have NOT used the Shazaaam feature yet (Happs back oreder some of my buttons) but I should be getting a hold of a couple of buttons today and will hook them up as soon as I do.

[Grasshopper]

I'm surprised how much hostility there has been to the KeyWiz. In the long run competition can only be to the benefit of BYOAC customers.

My own thoughts are as follows.

Things I like:
First and foremost the price,  it's significantly cheaper than the Ipac. The lack of screw connectors is a useful way to keep costs down. I'm guessing that most people who build their own controls are not afraid of soldering.
More inputs than the standard Ipac.

Things I don't care about:
the whole Shazaam vs Shift key debate. Both systems provide more than enough functionality for me.
Lack of USB support. It would be a bonus for future-proofing, however USB is not a priority for me at the moment.

Thing I don't like:
Lack of keyboard pass-through on the cheaper models. In my opinion this is a serious deficiency. Even the most expensive model only provides a system activated by a switch which is a bit clumsy. I don't see how this facility can add significantly to the cost, or significantly reduce performance.


RandyT: Please could you answer a few questions for me. I know you suggested that people should email you as you weren't going to post on this topic again. However I think other people on this board might be interested in the answers. If you don't wish to post again then please can you PM me.

First of all, will you be selling to people outside of the USA, and if so can you give us an approximate idea of the shipping costs? I live in the UK.

Do you accept payments by Paypal? This method is particularly convenient if you are ordering from abroad as Paypal does not make a charge for converting currency.

Going back to the keyboard pass-through issue, why don't you adopt the approach taken by Stephan Hans? His keyboard splitter can be built for a few dollars and as far as I am aware it does not affect the performance of the keyboards attached to it.

If I bought the cheapest KeyWiz, could I then add keyboard pass-through functionality by soldering my own DIN socket to the circuit board?

Thanks in advance

[eightbit]

Going back to the keyboard pass-through issue, why don't you adopt the approach taken by Stephan Hans? His keyboard splitter can be built for a few dollars and as far as I am aware it does not affect the performance of the keyboards attached to it.

If I bought the cheapest KeyWiz, could I then add keyboard pass-through functionality by soldering my own DIN socket to the circuit board?

I can't speak to the payment or shipping issues.

I can tell you why the keywiz didn't use the keyboard pass through. It takes inputs and can cause lower performance. So no a pass through couldn't easily be added. A USB keyboard can be had for under $10 shipped to you in the states. I don't know what you can get them for in the UK. Even DOS under most Bios's can use a USB keyboard. I've seen ps2 to USB adapters for under $4 and you could adapt any keyboard to usb. There are also performance issues with USB in general. Andy has claimed that he has gotten around the normal USB 6 key simultanious limit but he hasn't claimed to my knowledge how many he has gotten to work.

Whats this keyboard splitter by Stephan that you speak of? I'm interested in it.

[_Iz-]

Is it not possible to connect 2 keyboards in parallel to one PS/2 port? Don't they make splitters that adapt 2 female to 1 male pin for pin with no actual "electronics"? Basically a simple "Y"?

[eightbit]

Is it not possible to connect 2 keyboards in parallel to one PS/2 port? Don't they make splitters that adapt 2 female to 1 male pin for pin with no actual "electronics"? Basically a simple "Y"?

Its been asked before and the answer was no. Those splitters are designed for laptops to split a keyboard and a mouse. The PS/2 port on a laptop is wired to work this way.

I have a couple of those splitters for my laptops, I'll give it a test when I get a chance.

[Grasshopper]

Going back to the keyboard pass-through issue, why don't you adopt the approach taken by Stephan Hans? His keyboard splitter can be built for a few dollars and as far as I am aware it does not affect the performance of the keyboards attached to it.

If I bought the cheapest KeyWiz, could I then add keyboard pass-through functionality by soldering my own DIN socket to the circuit board?

I can't speak to the payment or shipping issues.

I can tell you why the keywiz didn't use the keyboard pass through. It takes inputs and can cause lower performance. So no a pass through couldn't easily be added. A USB keyboard can be had for under $10 shipped to you in the states. I don't know what you can get them for in the UK. Even DOS under most Bios's can use a USB keyboard. I've seen ps2 to USB adapters for under $4 and you could adapt any keyboard to usb. There are also performance issues with USB in general. Andy has claimed that he has gotten around the normal USB 6 key simultanious limit but he hasn't claimed to my knowledge how many he has gotten to work.

Whats this keyboard splitter by Stephan that you speak of? I'm interested in it.

USB keyboards can be bought quite cheaply in the UK however I've never seen a PS/2 to USB adaptor for the price you quoted.

A USB keyboard is a good solution if you're building a complete cabinet. However if you're just building a control panel and you already own a PS/2 keyboard which you like using then you don't necessarily want to clutter up your desk with a second keyboard just for using with the control panel.

Stephan Hans circuit can be found here:

http://home.t-online.de/home/stephan.hans/tricks.htm#DUAL-KEYBOARD%20Circuit

I suppose there is nothing to stop you using his circuit with a KeyWiz.

I vaguely remember Andy saying that the Ipac could handle up to 15 simultaneous keypresses in USB mode.

[rampy]

Hey grasshopper, my undersatnding, after asking a simliar question to randyT a while ago was:

You could solder on your own DIN if you bought the cheapest key wiz... but you'd also need to solder on a switch as it still wouldn't act like a passthru.

I'm sure if one was doing a desktop controller where they'd switch alot (from normal keyboard to arcade encoding) a simple switching circuit could be built to "sense" which keyboard was active at a given time (just an idea I had when wrapping my mind around your comments ->it might not work, or have adverse effects *shrug*)

rampy

EDIT: doh -> just looked at stephens circuit and, yeah that's what I was thinking along the lines of, although, I probably wouldn't of come up with a working solution on my own =P

[Grasshopper]

Hey grasshopper, my undersatnding, after asking a simliar question to randyT a while ago was:

You could solder on your own DIN if you bought the cheapest key wiz... but you'd also need to solder on a switch as it still wouldn't act like a passthru.

I'm sure if one was doing a desktop controller where they'd switch alot (from normal keyboard to arcade encoding) a simple switching circuit could be built to "sense" which keyboard was active at a given time (just an idea I had when wrapping my mind around your comments ->it might not work, or have adverse effects *shrug*)

rampy

Thanks for that. RandyT did actually PM me yesterday and confirmed what you just said. He also answered all my other questions.

You switching circuit idea sounds like the circuit that Stephan Hans had already designed.

[_Iz-]

Is it not possible to connect 2 keyboards in parallel to one PS/2 port? Don't they make splitters that adapt 2 female to 1 male pin for pin with no actual "electronics"? Basically a simple "Y"?

Its been asked before and the answer was no. Those splitters are designed for laptops to split a keyboard and a mouse. The PS/2 port on a laptop is wired to work this way.

I have a couple of those splitters for my laptops, I'll give it a test when I get a chance.

I think the laptop splitters are definitely designed differently than what you would need, they probably need a suitably wired ps/2 port and take advantage of the 2 "reserved" pins in the p/s port.

How about this though?

http://www.trianglecables.com/7inps2ycabtw.html

Wouldn't this work for 2 ps/2 keyboards? I don't think I'd want to use them both simultaneously but who does on an arcade cabinet, you use either the controls or the keyboard...

[Kane]

that would work....and I went and spent 40$ on a USB keyboard

[_Iz-]

that would work....and I went and spent 40$ on a USB keyboard

$40!     Shoulda ordered a $10 one with your keywiz...  

[eightbit]

How about this though?

http://www.trianglecables.com/7inps2ycabtw.html

Wouldn't this work for 2 ps/2 keyboards? I don't think I'd want to use them both simultaneously but who does on an arcade cabinet, you use either the controls or the keyboard...

Thats what we have been talking about for laptops. I don't think it will work on a normal PC with 2 keyboards. I think I might have time tonight to try one of those and see what happens.

[_Iz-]

This

http://www.trianglecables.com/6inps2yadmou.html

is the one for laptops. It allows 1 mouse and 1 keyboard on a single ps/2 port. You HAVE to use 1 of each.

The other link I provided is different. It allows either 2 keyboards OR 2 mice to share 1 port but NOT 1 of each.

[Tiger-Heli]

I think the laptop splitters are definitely designed differently than what you would need, they probably need a suitably wired ps/2 port and take advantage of the 2 "reserved" pins in the p/s port.

How about this though?

http://www.trianglecables.com/7inps2ycabtw.html

Wouldn't this work for 2 ps/2 keyboards? I don't think I'd want to use them both simultaneously but who does on an arcade cabinet, you use either the controls or the keyboard...

Has anyone actually tested the adapter mentioned above.  Basically, does it work and do the LED indicators on both keyboards function correctly???  I am interested in one, but they want $7 shipping on top of the $7 price, which is a lot to throw away if it doesn't work.

BTW, link should now be: http://store.yahoo.com/trianglecables-site/7inps2ycabtw.html (for anyone new to this thread)