I-PAC shift function vs. KeyWiz Shazaam Function for Howard C.

[Tiger-Heli]

Ok, I'm a glutton for punishment, but the other thread is now locked, so I'll try here.

Let's say you have a 4-player, 4-button cabinet - 32 inputs.  This uses all your KeyWiz inputs, but the Shazaam! key does not take away an input, so you can mount it in the middle of the panel and use shifted keys for coin inputs, TAB, etc.

Now with the I-PAC, let's say you have a 4-player, 3-button cabinet - 28 inputs.  You no longer have a P1 Start button, b/c this input is required for gameplay.  Sure you could map your P1 Start input to "nothing", mount it in the center of the panel and have a dedicated Shift button with the I-PAC, but that takes away an input, so you now only have 27 inputs and not enough to play the games.  Or you can use P1B1 as a gameplay and Shift button, but then as HC said in a previous post, you have Shift functions popping up during gameplay and Player 4 reaching across to press Player 1B1 to add a new coin.

As I said in a previous post, think of the KeyWiz as 33 inputs, one of which (Shazaam) can't be used for gameplay, or think of the I-PAC as 28 inputs, but only 27 if you want a dedicated Shift key.

I can't make it any clearer, if you still don't get it, you probably never will, unless anyone else wants to try!!!

[simpleman46]

So the KeyWiz really does have 33 inputs on it?  But one of them can only be used for Shazaaam?  I've been a little confused about that myself.  

I kinda like how the ipac shift button can have a function and also be used as shift.  

Seems to me that if both the ipac and the keywiz had identical number of inputs, I'd have to give ipac the advantage, since it's shift button can have the dual functionality (if you want).

But they don't have identical number of inputs, so it's tough to make the comparison.

[Tiger-Heli]

So the KeyWiz really does have 33 inputs on it?  But one of them can only be used for Shazaaam?  I've been a little confused about that myself.  

I kinda like how the ipac shift button can have a function and also be used as shift.  

Seems to me that if both the ipac and the keywiz had identical number of inputs, I'd have to give ipac the advantage, since it's shift button can have the dual functionality (if you want).

But they don't have identical number of inputs, so it's tough to make the comparison.

Personally, I prefer the way the KeyWiz is set up in this regard.  BTW, there is a way to have the KeyWiz use the shifted functions without having a dedicated button, but I don't have all the details yet.

[SirPoonga]

Personally, I prefer the way the KeyWiz is set up in this regard.  BTW, there is a way to have the KeyWiz use the shifted functions without having a dedicated button, but I don't have all the details yet.

I thought randyt said it didn't exist but he was looking into it.

BTW, I love the fact that the shift key on my ipac has a normal function too.  one less button to clutter up the cp.

[Tiger-Heli]

Personally, I prefer the way the KeyWiz is set up in this regard.  BTW, there is a way to have the KeyWiz use the shifted functions without having a dedicated button, but I don't have all the details yet.

I thought randyt said it didn't exist but he was looking into it.

BTW, I love the fact that the shift key on my ipac has a normal function too.  one less button to clutter up the cp.

It exists now, check the FAQ on the KeyWiz site and the end of the locked ooooooh! thread.

[eightbit]

Heres another perspective-  

The shifted functions of the Ipac and the keywiz are wonderful. If your only doing mame you don't need either unless you need the functions to be available outside of the emulator. Outside the emu you need to be able to navigate a list and start the game. This is usually done with p1 joystick and p1b1. Inside the emu is where you need the programed buttons, esc, pause , coin, player start plus a bunch of other actions if you want them.

Within mame you can specify any key combination that you want. You can set up a dedicated shift button or it can have its own action plus a shifted action. You can configure key combo moves, like require a 3 key combination to get TAB to get the game menu.

The advantage to doing it inside the emu is that you never mess with changing jumpers or programing of the encoder or switching codesets. You practicly have an unlimited ability to program as many functions as you want without adding any more buttons to your control panel.

[ErikRuud]

I have an IPAC, it is a great product.  The KeyWhiz looks good too.

In my cab, I must have a programmable encoder.

I run O2Em (an Odyssey2 emulator), it does not have assignable keys, and O2 controllers only had one fire button.

I use multiple configurations on my IPac. One each for O2em, MAME, Retrocade, and one for Game Launcher.  For example in the O2Em configuration all 5 player 1 buttons are set to be the player 1 fire button. I do the same for the 5 player 2 buttons.  The Game Launcher configuration set all the player buttons to be space(Show Snapshot) and all the MAME admin buttons are set to 1(Launch Game).

I know that eventually the EEPROM in the IPac will give out.  When that day comes I will have to buy a new encoder. It might be an IPac, or it might not. Both the KeyWhiz and IPac 4 would allow me to add the extra buttons for modern fighting games(I'm not really a fan of those anyway).

From my point of view, the two products are functionally very simular, and neither one has a huge feature advantage over the other.  As I see it, IPAC is a proven product, and KeyWhiz is less expensive.

I don't understand the complaints about US Customs charges with the IPAC.  I paid the purchase price and the S&H, there were no additional charges.

[Tiger-Heli]

I don't understand the complaints about US Customs charges with the IPAC.  I paid the purchase price and the S&H, there were no additional charges.

As I understand it, the Customs charges occur when shipping products to Canada.  (Although you might be in Canada, in which case, I don't understand either.)

[eightbit]

I know that eventually the EEPROM in the IPac will give out.  When that day comes I will have to buy a new encoder. It might be an IPac, or it might not. Both the KeyWhiz and IPac 4 would allow me to add the extra buttons for modern fighting games(I'm not really a fan of those anyway).

Eeproms have a limited life but I doubt if your going to see the end of it.

[ErikRuud]

Nope, I am in the US.  

Someone had said that the KeyWhiz would not get the customs charges because it was from the US, so I thought they were talking about US Customs.

[eightbit]

Nope, I am in the US.  

Someone had said that the KeyWhiz would not get the customs charges because it was from the US, so I thought they were talking about US Customs.

I've ordered twice from ultimark and know personally of 2 other people that have ordered from Ultimark with no custom charges in the US. The only complaint I've heard is from Canada and they seem to inconsistantly charge a additional customs charge.

[rampy]

Nope, I am in the US.  

Someone had said that the KeyWhiz would not get the customs charges because it was from the US, so I thought they were talking about US Customs.

I've ordered twice from ultimark and know personally of 2 other people that have ordered from Ultimark with no custom charges in the US. The only complaint I've heard is from Canada and they seem to inconsistantly charge a additional customs charge.

I think people are generalizing "customs" charges when they really mean high-er shipping and handling charges for international shipping.

It's 6 bucks in shipping to get a key whiz in the continental US and 12 dollars in shipping to get 1 item from ultimarc if you happen to live in the US.   I think people genericize this as "customs charge" mistakenly when it's really the cost of shipping items overseas AFAIK.

*shrug*

i do declare...

rampy

[Tiger-Heli]

I think people are generalizing "customs" charges when they really mean high-er shipping and handling charges for international shipping.

It's 6 bucks in shipping to get a key whiz in the continental US and 12 dollars in shipping to get 1 item from ultimarc if you happen to live in the US.   I think people genericize this as "customs charge" mistakenly when it's really the cost of shipping items overseas AFAIK.

No that's not it, there's some sort of Canadian duty charges.  I dug up Reply #5 by Psyklops to this thread http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3249

"I live in northern Alberta, Canada and just placed and received an order with Happ.

[Brax]

It is a duty charge. Duty isn't charged on all items all the time though. Basically if it's under the value of 20 or 30 dollars you're probably safe. Over that.... it's a crap shoot. Some items are exempt due to the free trade agreement as well. Who can keep track though, I just order stuff and hope for the best.

Out of the 30 or so ebay purchases i've made from US sellers i've been nailed for additional duty once.

With a 50% exchange rate, shipping charges in US funds, possible duty, these "cheap" products quickly become uncheap.

[RandyT]

It is a duty charge. Duty isn't charged on all items all the time though. Basically if it's under the value of 20 or 30 dollars you're probably safe. Over that.... it's a crap shoot. Some items are exempt due to the free trade agreement as well. Who can keep track though, I just order stuff and hope for the best.

Out of the 30 or so ebay purchases i've made from US sellers i've been nailed for additional duty once.

With a 50% exchange rate, shipping charges in US funds, possible duty, these "cheap" products quickly become uncheap.

We just sent a KeyWiz to Canada labeled as "Made In USA Computer Component" (which it is) and I will contact the purchaser to find out how he fared with duties.  Hopefully it will be covered under the "Free Trade Agreement".  I'll keep everyone updated on the results.

RandyT

[_Iz-]

(I'm in canada) In my experience the duty is no biggie, it's the brokerage fee some shipping companies charge to bring it across the boarder into canada that's the killer. I ordered an ipac and it came with no additional charges. I ordered parts from happs, they shipped UPS and I was dinged almost $40 in brokerage. I almost died from the shock! I have heard that USPS has the cheapest brokerage fees, it's only $5. I hang out on the redflagdeals.com forum and everyone there refuses to order from the US unless they will ship USPS.  -just my $0.02

Now, I have a question for RandyT. I have been following the Keywiz vs Ipac discussions very closely and there is one concept that I am having a little trouble with. It has been stated that the Keywiz can have more than 32 "dedicated" inputs using an "adapter" or "special button" but I cannot find any details on this additional item anywhere. What is it? How does it work? Is it really just a dual button that activates the shazzam key and another at the same time?

[Howard_Casto]

Ok, I'm a glutton for punishment, but the other thread is now locked, so I'll try here.

Let's say you have a 4-player, 4-button cabinet - 32 inputs.  This uses all your KeyWiz inputs, but the Shazaam! key does not take away an input, so you can mount it in the middle of the panel and use shifted keys for coin inputs, TAB, etc.

Now with the I-PAC, let's say you have a 4-player, 3-button cabinet - 28 inputs.  You no longer have a P1 Start button, b/c this input is required for gameplay.  Sure you could map your P1 Start input to "nothing", mount it in the center of the panel and have a dedicated Shift button with the I-PAC, but that takes away an input, so you now only have 27 inputs and not enough to play the games.  Or you can use P1B1 as a gameplay and Shift button, but then as HC said in a previous post, you have Shift functions popping up during gameplay and Player 4 reaching across to press Player 1B1 to add a new coin.

As I said in a previous post, think of the KeyWiz as 33 inputs, one of which (Shazaam) can't be used for gameplay, or think of the I-PAC as 28 inputs, but only 27 if you want a dedicated Shift key.

I can't make it any clearer, if you still don't get it, you probably never will, unless anyone else wants to try!!!

The amount of inputs and the way the shift/shazaam keys function have nothing to do with each other.  I had come to believe that the shazaam key could also be used as a regular key. Apparently that is not the case.    

So I take it back, the shazaam key isn't the same as the ipac shift key. It's WORSE  A dedicated shift key is a bad thing.. umm k.  You should at least have the option of using it as a dual function key.  

I, for example, refuse to have special "mame keys" on my control panel.  If I have to have a "shift key" put on special then I'm not getting it.  The idea is I want my cp to look like it could actually be on a real arcade machine.  If I have a row of function keys then it ruins that.  I figure a lot of people with faithful mame conversions of arcade cabinets feel the same way.  

This revelation has really offset the balance for me.  I can now say that the ipac is better than keywiz, although the keywiz would still be a good choice for budget projects.  

[RandyT]

So I take it back, the shazaam key isn't the same as the ipac shift key. It's WORSE  A dedicated shift key is a bad thing.. umm k.  You should at least have the option of using it as a dual function key.  

Ok, if having the ability to use a "shifted" function with a single button press is "worse", then I can't argue  

For an explantion on making a "dual-purpose" button, read a followup in a bit..

I, for example, refuse to have special "mame keys" on my control panel.  If I have to have a "shift key" put on special then I'm not getting it.  The idea is I want my cp to look like it could actually be on a real arcade machine.  If I have a row of function keys then it ruins that.  I figure a lot of people with faithful mame conversions of arcade cabinets feel the same way.

No doubt.  You won't have to have a ton of "mame" keys if you don't want, but the option will be there if you do.  In fact, you could have up to 24 special function buttons on there in addition to controls that used all 32 inputs, with none of them being a dedicated "Shazaaam!" button, if you so desire.  

This revelation has really offset the balance for me.  I can now say that the ipac is better than keywiz, although the keywiz would still be a good choice for budget projects.  

Jumping to conclusions again. eh ?  

RandyT

[RandyT]

Now, I have a question for RandyT. I have been following the Keywiz vs Ipac discussions very closely and there is one concept that I am having a little trouble with. It has been stated that the Keywiz can have more than 32 "dedicated" inputs using an "adapter" or "special button" but I cannot find any details on this additional item anywhere. What is it? How does it work? Is it really just a dual button that activates the shazzam key and another at the same time?

The adapter is a special "Y" adapter with an integrated electronic compnent.  With this adapter, any SPST switch (button, coin door, slam switch, tilt, etc...) can perform the function I wrote about.  This will allow one button to do the same thing as pressing Shazaaam! and another button simultaneously, but without the need for a dedicated Shazaaam! button.

Using this method, you could also have a "dual purpose" button, as while this button is held, any other button pressed at the same will send the Shazaaam! keycode assigned to it.  The only limitation is that the dual-purpose button's function needs to be carefully selected as it's keycode will be sent as well, but only when it is first pressed and not be sent again as long as it is held down.

For instance, this button could be a "start" button on your panel, with it's definitition set to ";".  If you don't have any credits racked up, pressing ";" won't do a thing.  Likewise, it's very unlikely that ";" will have any effect in any outside application.  This would make it a good choice.

Then you could press the "start" button and a second button, to send the "Shazaaam!" keycode associated with the second button.

These adapters will be available from the site starting this evening at $1.25 each. (only gave the price because I know that will be the next question )

RandyT

[_Iz-]

So for each "special button" does 1/2 of the "Y" connect to the shazzam input on the keywiz and the other 1/2 connect to the specific input you want to use?  I assume it then forces the keywiz to use the shifted code for that specific input?

Note to HC, This is how the number of inputs are extended, you don't have to use these for mame functions, they can be action keys, insert coins, etc, you just need to program the code set appropriately.  IE: use all 32 regular inputs for 4 sticks and 4 buttons per player, then use 8 (or more) " buttons with the special adapter to be insert coins and start 1-4. However, I personally still like the dual function shift button on the ipac better. Like HC I have my control panel configured without any "extra" function keys, I just use the ipac shifted codes for controlling mame. Although, I suppose 1 extra button wouldn't be the end of the world, I just prefer no extra...

On another side note, I have re-programmed my IPAC so that "esc" is player1start + coin1 instead of player1start + player2start. I found my kids were exiting games accidentally when they played together, they would get a ways into a game, hit a difficult section, both die and slap the start buttons virtually simultaneously, exiting the game. (Then scream in frustration!)  

RandyT - Any idea if your adapter would work on the Ipac for single button shifted inputs? Is it basically 2 wires with diodes to restrict current flow to 1 direction (so the 2 inputs don't short each other out)?

[RandyT]

So for each "special button" does 1/2 of the "Y" connect to the shazzam input on the keywiz and the other 1/2 connect to the specific input you want to use?  I assume it then forces the keywiz to use the shifted code for that specific input?

Full instructions will be supplied with the adapters, but it is very simple to connect these if you are using crimp-on disconnects.

However, I personally still like the dual function shift button on the ipac better. Like HC I have my control panel configured without any "extra" function keys, I just use the ipac shifted codes for controlling mame. Although, I suppose 1 extra button wouldn't be the end of the world, I just prefer no extra...

No extra button is required.  The method I explained above works quite well in practice.  Just wanted make sure that was clear

RandyT - Any idea if your adapter would work on the Ipac for single button shifted inputs?

Refer to the forums for that product.  I believe that question was answered recently.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

http://www.ultimarc.com/messages/2111.html

For the lazy

[_Iz-]

I am confused and somewhat offended by your reluctance to explain how the keywiz's "special adapter" functions or even how it connects to the keywiz itself. You seem to be attempting to lead me to believe that it is "just magic". The ability to extend the number of inputs on the keywiz is (as I'm sure you already know) a major selling point for it. I would assume that someone proud of their product and it's "superior" design would not have to hide behind a veil of secrecy and would want to disseminate as much information about it in order to enable prospective purchasers to make an informed choice.

While I currently own an IPAC (it was the only "real" product available at the time I purchased it, Hagstrom's encoders are a joke IMHO) I will most definitely be building more cabinets in the future. I also know several people planning their own cabinets anxiously following the construction of my cabinet. Their buying decisions will be greatly influenced by my opinions.

I am very interested in your product but I am rapidly being turned off by your lack of information and cooperation.

[eightbit]

I, for example, refuse to have special "mame keys" on my control panel.  If I have to have a "shift key" put on special then I'm not getting it.  The idea is I want my cp to look like it could actually be on a real arcade machine.  If I have a row of function keys then it ruins that.  I figure a lot of people with faithful mame conversions of arcade cabinets feel the same way.  

In mame you can avoid the use of having to program your encoder to do a shifted function by programming any combination of buttons to do a certain function. You can even have a dedicated shift button if you want. You can even do more than 2 button combos if you want it to be difficult to get into your game setup menu you could set it for 3 keys.

In real arcade cabinets there were additional buttons for free play or credits or configuration. They were usually located inside the coin door. I definately agree with the less clutter philosphy. If keeping your panel authentic is a priority you could mount your shazzam key there. If you don't like reaching inside the coin door you could mount it on the side, under the marquee, under a overhang on the front of the cab.

Using Randys method you could squeeze out enough inputs on the 2 player keywiz to make an acceptable 4 player panel and still save money over buying a 2p Ipac. I would like to see it done, I'd like to try it even but I have a few projects right now consuming a lot of time so I don't know how soon I'll get to it.

On a related topic lets hear from those that have ordered and received keywiz's. Some of you must have gotten them by now. We can continue to speculate ad nauseum how good they are, but I want to hear from the people that have them.

[Tiger-Heli]

The amount of inputs and the way the shift/shazaam keys function have nothing to do with each other.  I had come to believe that the shazaam key could also be used as a regular key. Apparently that is not the case.    

So I take it back, the shazaam key isn't the same as the ipac shift key. It's WORSE  A dedicated shift key is a bad thing.. umm k.  You should at least have the option of using it as a dual function key.  

It's worse in the sense that you don't actually have 33 dedicated inputs, you have 32 plus shazaam, while the I-PAC has 28 including Shift.

I'll try to explain it this way:  If I have a four player-four button panel with the KeyWiz, I can still use the Shazaam key to provide shifted coin inputs for each player.

Let's say I have a 4-player 3-button CP with the I-PAC (28 input).  What button are you going to assign as the shift-key??? You don't have a P1 Start button any more b/c this button has been used for the play-action buttons.  You could assign P1B1 as SHIFT, place a centrally located button on the panel wired in Parallel to P1B1, and use this as a Shift button to activate Coin inputs, etc, but now you have another button on the panel, which is what you wanted to avoid and if accidentally pressed and released by itself, this generates the P1B1 key code.

I, for example, refuse to have special "mame keys" on my control panel.  If I have to have a "shift key" put on special then I'm not getting it.  The idea is I want my cp to look like it could actually be on a real arcade machine.  If I have a row of function keys then it ruins that.  I figure a lot of people with faithful mame conversions of arcade cabinets feel the same way.  

You don't need a row of function keys, you need one Shazaam! key that can access your other functions.  Use RandyT's adapters and you don't even need that!!!

This revelation has really offset the balance for me.  I can now say that the ipac is better than keywiz, although the keywiz would still be a good choice for budget projects.  

You can say that, but anyone can say anything.

If you want a 4-player 4-button panel, it can't be done with the I-PAC, it can with the KeyWiz.

If compact size is a factor, go with the KeyWiz.

If cost is the primary concern, go with the KeyWiz.

The KeyWiz has a screw terminal for +5V as opposed to tapping into a header row on the I-PAC (not that that's a major concern).

The KeyWiz supports (with adapters) using shifted keys without a dedicated button.

The shift function is different between the two units, you have to decide which way you like better (if it matters to you).

The software is different between the two units.

The I-PAC support USB.

The I-PAC has a dedicated keyboard pass-thru.  The KeyWiz Max pass-thru is an either/or affair.

The I-PAC supports LED's (although not super-bright ones and although they will flash when buttons 7 or 8 are pressed).  LED support will be added to the KeyWiz in a separate product.

No offense to RandyT, but the I-PAC has a longer history, was the first product of this type offered to the BYOAC community, and Andy's support of it has earned him the respect of many members of this forum.  Again, I'm not saying that RandyT won't support the KeyWiz.

I didn't mention speed of processors or buffers, b/c I haven't heard of this being a problem with either unit.

There are also other encoders with other features (MK series, ButtonBox, Hagstrom), but since the I-PAC and the KeyWiz are the most comparable, I am limiting the discussion to these two.

[RandyT]

I am confused and somewhat offended by your reluctance to explain how the keywiz's "special adapter" functions or even how it connects to the keywiz itself. You seem to be attempting to lead me to believe that it is "just magic". The ability to extend the number of inputs on the keywiz is (as I'm sure you already know) a major selling point for it. I would assume that someone proud of their product and it's "superior" design would not have to hide behind a veil of secrecy and would want to disseminate as much information about it in order to enable prospective purchasers to make an informed choice.

There are some things that a drawing says better than words.  A schematic is one of them .  The schematic would be included with the adapters.  Too often people aren't able to follow a written description and make false assumptions, as has happened here more than once.  It also sounds more complicated when written as opposed to a simple diagram.  Just trying to avoid these misconceptions.

But I guess I'll give it a shot anyway.

1)  There are 2 male spade disconnects and 1 female spade disconnect.

2)  The female pushes onto the N/O terminal of the switch you wish to make "special".

3)  One female gets connected to the "Shazaaam!" bus (in the case of several of these on a CP).

4)  The other female connects either directly to an input on the KeyWiz along with the switch that has the secondary code you want the special switch to be associated with,  or is chained off of that switch's N/O terminal.

And again, it's not as complicated as it sounds.


RandyT

[_Iz-]

RandyT, thank-you for your response.

This board supports the posting of images. You obviously have some sort of schematic ready as you have indicated the adapters are ready for purchase this evening and complete drawings/instructions will be shipped with them. If a drawing were that critical to your explanation could you not have posted one for us instead of forcing me to back you into a corner?

I'm still curious as to how it works at an electrical level. Can one of these adapters be made simply by the knowledgeable DIYer or are they more involved?

I have one more question, on your product information page for the keywiz, it's speed is discussed heavily. Would a button using the "special adapter" be as fast as a regular input or is there some delay involved?

[RandyT]

RandyT, thank-you for your response.

This board supports the posting of images. You obviously have some sort of schematic ready as you have indicated the adapters are ready for purchase this evening and complete drawings/instructions will be shipped with them. If a drawing were that critical to your explanation could you not have posted one for us instead of forcing me to back you into a corner?

I'm still curious as to how it works at an electrical level. Can one of these adapters be made simply by the knowledgeable DIYer or are they more involved?

Actually, the schematic is not ready yet.  That's why the adapters won't be on the site until later this evening.  I still have to make the documentation (always the last step, you know)

And yes, these can be made by a knowledgable DIY'er.

With an adapter that I build and test, I know that it will work properly if hooked up the way I specify.  If someone gets "creative" in the wiring process while building their own, this gets nearly impossible to support if problems arise.  For this reason, I don't wish to make the internals of the adapter public.  But if someone buys one and disects it, that's fine too, as long as I don't have to figure out what they did wrong when they decide to build their own and it doesn't work .

And no, no delays.  It responds just like a regular button.

RandyT

[Howard_Casto]

I, for example, refuse to have special "mame keys" on my control panel.  If I have to have a "shift key" put on special then I'm not getting it.  The idea is I want my cp to look like it could actually be on a real arcade machine.  If I have a row of function keys then it ruins that.  I figure a lot of people with faithful mame conversions of arcade cabinets feel the same way.  

You don't need a row of function keys, you need one Shazaam! key that can access your other functions.  Use RandyT's adapters and you don't even need that!!!

Exactly! Your not getting it... one single extra key is too many.  There isn't a "function" key on a real arcade machine and thus there isn't a function key on my control panel.  I'm guessing that this adaptor costs something, in which case the keywiz doesn't have the cost advantage anymore.  

As I said, it's worse......

And dude, I understood your example the first time.... that's an issue of the keywiz having more inputs than the ipac, and has nothing to do with how the shift function operates.   Besides, the ipac4 has more than enough inputs.... I've just been ignoring it as the cost is a little higher.  

[Silverwind]

Nope, I am in the US.  

Someone had said that the KeyWhiz would not get the customs charges because it was from the US, so I thought they were talking about US Customs.

I've ordered twice from ultimark and know personally of 2 other people that have ordered from Ultimark with no custom charges in the US. The only complaint I've heard is from Canada and they seem to inconsistantly charge a additional customs charge.

I ordered one from inside the US and there was no customs charge..

and yes so far i'm happy with my ipac4

[eightbit]

Exactly! Your not getting it... one single extra key is too many.  There isn't a "function" key on a real arcade machine and thus there isn't a function key on my control panel.  I'm guessing that this adaptor costs something, in which case the keywiz doesn't have the cost advantage anymore.  

As I said, it's worse......

Diffferent is a fact, worse is a matter of opinion. Another fact, there are function keys on arcade machines, just not on the control panel.

With Randys adapter you don't even need a dedicated function key. So it becomes a mute point. If the adapter is additional $'s to avoid the dedicated key the keywiz still retains the significant savings advantage. Even with enough "adapters" to do a 4 player panel the keywiz is still likely to be cheaper than a 2p Ipac, but we'll have to wait to confirm that till they are actually available to be ordered.

[u_rebelscum]

Sounds to me like the adapter is just a simple, pre-built Y-adapter to plug the button into two of keywiz's ports: a "normal" button port and the "shazzam" button port.  Just like hard wiring a button to player1 coin  & p1 start on the ipac.  Is this right?


my $0.02:
I don't mean this as flamebait but...
IMO, the shift and shazaam keys are almost useless in mame, since they're just doing something in hardware that mame can do in software.  Others have already posted in this thread that you can remap the keys in mame to do the same thing.  The hotrodse and it's ctrlr ini is a example of mame doing almost the same thing as those special keys do, without a special key, and with more flexabilty.  It defulats to P1 coin + P1 start equivelent to TAB, and P2 coin + P2 start equiv ESC.
UI_CONFIGURE          "KEYCODE_TAB | KEYCODE_1 KEYCODE_3"
UI_CANCEL             "KEYCODE_ESC | KEYCODE_2 KEYCODE_4"

Now, inside FE's and outside of mame in general, shift/shazaam can be very useful.  For example, you can get alt-F4 output,  with the special keys to exit programs & windows without having to wire a special key for F4.  In these cases, I like the idea of a key that only shifts/shazaams, small and hidden out of the way. *shrug*

[creepfactory]

Sooooooooooo How much is the Keywiz, and are they READY, tested and working. I am sorry but the Ipac WORKS, Andy is GREAT on getting stuff out, and man it is just plain proven. Maybe Keywiz will be the next ultimarc, but maybe they will be the next T-stick or other companies that can't deliver. I am not saying Keywiz can't deliver, just has not yet, and you can get an Ipac TODAY ordered and in your hands in a few days. Not trying to be a spoil sport and I encourage competition, but the site isnt near finished either, Andys is up and running for a long time, I personally wouldn't put up a site untill all of it is up, but I am willing to try the Keywiz, but can't find if its for sale yet or where to buy. But keeping optimistic!

[SirPoonga]

Sooooooooooo How much is the Keywiz, and are they READY, tested and working. I am sorry but the Ipac WORKS, Andy is GREAT on getting stuff out, and man it is just plain proven. Maybe Keywiz will be the next ultimarc, but maybe they will be the next T-stick or other companies that can't deliver. I am not saying Keywiz can't deliver, just has not yet, and you can get an Ipac TODAY ordered and in your hands in a few days. Not trying to be a spoil sport and I encourage competition, but the site isnt near finished either, Andys is up and running for a long time, I personally wouldn't put up a site untill all of it is up, but I am willing to try the Keywiz, but can't find if its for sale yet or where to buy. But keeping optimistic!

SMACK!

Keywiz is brand new, released, what, 1-2 weeks ago.  It's in the US, you will get it in your hands faster than an IPAC if you live in the US.

Did you not see the annoucement on the main page that the keywiz is ready?  Click on the www link on RandyT's profile.

[SirPoonga]

Now, inside FE's and outside of mame in general, shift/shazaam can be very useful.  For example, you can get alt-F4 output,  with the special keys to exit programs & windows without having to wire a special key for F4.  In these cases, I like the idea of a key that only shifts/shazaams, small and hidden out of the way. *shrug*

Or map to keys you normally don't use in mame but in other arcade or pc software.

I have P1B1 mapped to Enter (very useful) and the shift to tab which is also very useful outside of mame.

When does mame recognize the input, on the keypress?
so in mame say, like me, you have pause as your shift function on the ipac.  In mame to do tab on my cp I just use shift p1b1 on the ipac.  if it was mapped in mame to do the same thing but in software it would pause the game first.  Soemthing I don't want as we know the issues with pausing a game and configing controls.

[RandyT]

Sooooooooooo How much is the Keywiz, and are they READY, tested and working. I am sorry but the Ipac WORKS, Andy is GREAT on getting stuff out, and man it is just plain proven. Maybe Keywiz will be the next ultimarc, but maybe they will be the next T-stick or other companies that can't deliver. I am not saying Keywiz can't deliver, just has not yet, and you can get an Ipac TODAY ordered and in your hands in a few days. Not trying to be a spoil sport and I encourage competition, but the site isnt near finished either, Andys is up and running for a long time, I personally wouldn't put up a site untill all of it is up, but I am willing to try the Keywiz, but can't find if its for sale yet or where to buy. But keeping optimistic!

Huh?

The store has been open for over a week now, and we've already shipped about 2 dozen units

Maybe you have to refresh your browser?

The hardware has been finalized for close to a month now and has been rigorously tested by a number of individuals.  I have a unit here that hasn't been removed from power for close to that entire time.  No problems.

We're working on the site as we get time.  The KeyWiz area has been fully functional from the time we went live.  Should have most of the other stuff fixed by this weekend sometime.

Just click on the cart in the upper right corner of the screen to get to the store.  Clicking on the KeyWiz logo will take you to the KeyWiz section.

RandyT

[eightbit]

Creep Randy has been shipping for 2 weeks now. His website isn't totally fleshed out but the keywiz stuff is complete and the shopping cart is open and working. He's even selling some accessorys other than the keywiz.

Or map to keys you normally don't use in mame but in other arcade or pc software.

I have P1B1 mapped to Enter (very useful) and the shift to tab which is also very useful outside of mame.

When does mame recognize the input, on the keypress?
so in mame say, like me, you have pause as your shift function on the ipac.  In mame to do tab on my cp I just use shift p1b1 on the ipac.  if it was mapped in mame to do the same thing but in software it would pause the game first.  Soemthing I don't want as we know the issues with pausing a game and configing controls.

The key is sent on key down. As with all interfaces you need to plan your buttons and inputs wisely.

[SirPoonga]

The key is sent on key down. As with all interfaces you need to plan your buttons and inputs wisely.

Right, but in order for the IPAC shift to work it has to detect if you are holding it or not so it doesn't quite send the keypress right away.  Therefore the char 'p' (my pause key) does not get sent when I hold the shift key down.  That's my point, if I map it in software p will get sent to mame.


RandyT, your site has some confusing problems.  First, the shopping cart to get to the store.  That's the ONLY way to get tot he store.  I couldn't find the store right away because a shopping cart icon is generally used to show your shopping cart, not to got the store.  I was expecting something on the keywiz info pages like "Add to shopping cart" when I saw the shopping cart in the top of the screen.

Second, this wording is weird. "Want to send a Shazaaam! keycode with only one click? These special adapters will make it happen.  Order 1 for each switch you want to have this feature."  Do you have an info page that explains that in more detail?  Put a link to it in the shopping cart description then.  I didn't realize the functionality of this until I talked aobut it in IRC.

[RandyT]

RandyT, your site has some confusing problems.  First, the shopping cart to get to the store.  That's the ONLY way to get tot he store.  I couldn't find the store right away because a shopping cart icon is generally used to show your shopping cart, not to got the store.  I was expecting something on the keywiz info pages like "Add to shopping cart" when I saw the shopping cart in the top of the screen.

The store script does have this feature and I will implement it on the description pages.  It's another one of those things I haven't gotten to yet.  Getting the store set up the way I wanted took a lot more time and effort than I expected (mainly because I wanted to customize the look), and I think I'm pretty much happy with it.  So now I can start to look at some of the other parts of the site.

Sorry if the cart thing is confusing.  I wanted that button to be a fixture on all the pages, and that includes the ones where there isn't anything for sale.  Originally I did want it to show the cart.  Just not sure if that's something I can make the script do.  I'll look into it, and If I can, I'll change it and put the web store link on one of the "tabs" at the top of the screen.

Second, this wording is weird. "Want to send a Shazaaam! keycode with only one click? These special adapters will make it happen.  Order 1 for each switch you want to have this feature."  Do you have an info page that explains that in more detail?  Put a link to it in the shopping cart description then.  I didn't realize the functionality of this until I talked aobut it in IRC.

Agreed.  I'll have a complete page up on that shortly.  I just threw that up there quickly so those that may have been following the discussions here would have the option of including them with their order.  A link will definitely be in the item description, as well as from the main KeyWiz info pages.

Thanks for the observations.
RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

Sounds to me like the adapter is just a simple, pre-built Y-adapter to plug the button into two of keywiz's ports: a "normal" button port and the "shazzam" button port.  Just like hard wiring a button to player1 coin  & p1 start on the ipac.  Is this right?

Not quite, read -Iz- (sp?) post further up this thread.  There's an electronic component involved and I think -Iz- gave away more than RandyT wanted to about it.  (And I won't say anything more).

my $0.02:
I don't mean this as flamebait but...
IMO, the shift and shazaam keys are almost useless in mame, since they're just doing something in hardware that mame can do in software.

Not taken as flamebait, but this is an opportunity to show off how the keys are different.  (BTW, I made the same argument as you years ago).

First with the I-PAC (AW pointed this out to me long ago) and I will steal the data from my keyboard hacks page.

***

Lack of shift key support - The I-PAC includes several special "shift key" functions which are designed to reduce the number of buttons required on the control panel. For example, pressing the 1 key and the 2 key together simulates ESC and exits MAME. Since R36B13, MAME allows key combinations and multiple assignments to be made to each input. Therefore, from the MAME Input (General) menu, selecting UI CANCEL = "1 2 or ESC" accomplishes the same thing.

Caveat One: The I-PAC includes this functionality in the controller code, so this feature will also work using it on emulators which do not support key remapping.

Caveat Two: Key remapping in MAME does not exactly mimic the I-PAC shift functions. The differences and the results are as follows:

On the I-PAC, if you press the shift key nothing happens until you release it. Then it either sends it's own code (1) or (if you have pressed another key) the shift code. If you map the same combinations in MAME, you will always get the first key send followed by the combination key send. The effect of this for each shift key function is as follows:

Coin Input: The I-PAC uses 1 and P1B1 keys to mimic coin input. In MAME, from the attract screen, if you map this combination, the first coin input will register. If you try to input a second coin, the game will start a 1-player game, because MAME reads the 1 key first. Therefore, you will never be able to start a two player game. For this reason, I recommend having a dedicated coin input key on your panel if using a keyboard hack. (You CAN get around this from the attract screen for most games by pressing the P1B1 key FIRST, followed by the 1 key; but a dedicated key is the easier solution).

ESC: The I-PAC uses the 1 and 2 player start keys to mimic ESC. In MAME, the game will either quit immediately or will start a one or two player game and then immediately quit. This is perfectly acceptable and I recommend mapping these keys if you don?t want a dedicated escape key.

Pause: The I-PAC uses the 1 and J1 Down key to mimic Pause. In MAME, if you are on the attract screen with credits already input, MAME will start a new game before pausing the game (assuming you press the 1 key first). If you are in one of the game playing screens MAME will pause properly unless you press the J1 Down key first, in which case the player position will move down slightly before the game pauses. This is acceptable, although I personally prefer a dedicated Pause key so that I don?t have to remember key combinations when I need to stop gameplay at a critical point.

Tilde and Tab: The I-PAC uses the 1 and J1 Up or J1 Right keys, respectively, to map these functions. These keys will function the same way as the Pause key above. See the section on assigning key for my personal key mapping recommendations on these keys.


Enter: The I-PAC uses 1 and J1 LEFT to mimic this key. This will work in MAME. This key is only used in MAME for items on the Configuration or On Screen Display Menus. The only difference between using this key in MAME is that the if you enter these menus without pausing the game, the player may move left while you are hitting enter! You are not likely to do this, though. Again, see the key mapping section for my personal recommendations on this key.

****

(To be continued)