New Product: TurboTwist

[Major Rock Hardy]

Somewhere along the line the community has been fed the incorrect notion that a desirable trait is one where the spinner will spin "forever" with one spin of the control, when in fact, all that does is make them more difficult to control.

I have always wondered about this too... seems like a marketing point for slikstik and perhaps further propagated by Retroblast in the "spinner roundup":
http://retroblast.com/reviews/roundup7.html

(which, by the way, needs to be re-revisited, right Randy?)

ridiculous, IMHO

The TurboTwist has been balanced to provide playability in all genres of games.  I can pretty much guarantee that no spinner or paddle game will be unplayable with this control.

oh please, tell me someone has tested this w/ Warlords and it is SWEEEEET....

Randy, that encoder wheel kinda looks like one of those old printer daisy wheels   Just kidding

[RandyT]

oh please, tell me someone has tested this w/ Warlords and it is SWEEEEET....

Somehow I forgot about that one.... and is it ever! 

Randy, that encoder wheel kinda looks like one of those old printer daisy wheels   Just kidding

<shudder>   

RandyT

[brandon]

wow.. that encoder wheel has lots of "fins" on it..  one could assume that it might be more precise than other spinners.. perhaps even 3 times more so..      (sorry.. I couldn't resist)

[19rjs99]

Well, I got mine this weekend. My CP isn't read for it yet so, I will have to test it tonight on it's own. I have to add that I like the construction and it seems very solid, however it definately needs a new knob. My knob has a wobble to it. It is definatley the knob because the shaft is straight. and doesn't wobble.

Randy, any plans on a new knob soon? I don't want to support SS after their attack in the other thread. Thanks for a great product.

Bob

[farmecologist]

Randy, I understand that your spinner has many more expansion capabilities than the tornado spinner.  It looks really nice!

However, if I ONLY consider the spinner functionality, what are the differences?  In my experience, for many games such as Arkanoid, *any* non-geared spinner, regardless of the sensitivity, will not give you the correct 'feel' while playing the game.  I take it this is also true with your spinner? 

The major stumbling block for spinners with Arkanoid has been the lack of resolution.  I did a fairly complete analysis of the control situation with that title in another thread found here.  I had to operate from a few assumptions, but it seems to add up.  The only thing I am not sure about is whether the game actually uses all of the resolution the control provided.  It's possible that it was averaged somehow.

While the resolution of the TurboTwist isn't at the same level as an Arkanoid spinner, it's still much higher than any other conventional spinner.  This makes a game like Arkanoid very playable.  I certainly do not consider the TurboTwist to "suck" for this game .  The feel and performance are different from other spinners.

There are other things to be concerned about with a a title like this and those are inertia and momentum.  If a spinner has a heavy flywheel and spins too freely, it will be difficult to prevent overshoot.  The spinner will want to continue spinning past the point where you attempt to stop it.  Somewhere along the line the community has been fed the incorrect notion that a desirable trait is one where the spinner will spin "forever" with one spin of the control, when in fact, all that does is make them more difficult to control.  More than 8 or 9 revolutions are unnecessary as no game requires this type of motion for effective control.  If you find that the spinners you have tried have too much resistance when beginning a move, or are difficult to stop precisely where you want them to, they suffer from the aforementioned problems.

As for the physical "dead stop" and "specific resistance" properties of the Arkanoid control itself, no spinner is going to be able to do that while being a good spinner for any number of other titles where those properties would make the games unplayable.  Well, unless you wanted to pay $200 or more for the contraption and have it take up much more space on your panel .  The TurboTwist has been balanced to provide playability in all genres of games.  I can pretty much guarantee that no spinner or paddle game will be unplayable with this control.

So, at the "end of the day" this is going to be the answer:  If you are a dyed-in-the-wool Arkanoid fan, there is only going to be one control that will ever be satisfactory to you, and that is the original control.  It won't do you any good for the majority of other titles, so you'll need to plan on having a two spinners on the panel.   Everyone else, will most likely be happy with the compromise the TurboTwist can provide.

RandyT

Ok, that's what I thought.   I just wanted to make the point that even though your spinner has higher resolution, it probably isn't the answer for Arkanoid ( and clones ).   Also, it seems to me that much of the 'feel' of the original Arkanoid spinner is due to the physical characteristics of the geared mechanism.

That being said, I still might try one out!   If anyone has installed the spinner and has tried out Arkanoid, please post a review!

Thanks!

[RandyT]

Well, I got mine this weekend. My CP isn't read for it yet so, I will have to test it tonight on it's own. I have to add that I like the construction and it seems very solid, however it definately needs a new knob. My knob has a wobble to it. It is definatley the knob because the shaft is straight. and doesn't wobble.

Randy, any plans on a new knob soon?

I'm afraid the knobs are the best I could do for the money I had allotted for them in the price.  Consider them a "freebie" knob as the other option, I'm afraid, was not to include one.  They feel and work great for gameplay, but they aren't the prettiest.  You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to find a decent knob for an application like this without making your own ($$) or paying for a custom run ($$$).  I probably spent $100 on different knobs for testing before settling on this one.

If anyone has any suggestions for sources of decent stock knobs they may have purchased in the past, please feel free to forward them to me.

That being said, my machinist has informed me that I just need to get a design to him and he can turn some for me on the CNC.  That means at least a couple of weeks, unfortunately.  But I do have a few cool ideas

RandyT

[screaming]

I'm sure I'm goign to get some snarling behind some monitors for making this comment, but.. Since the SS spinner top is easily removeable, could the SS top fit on the GGG spinner?

Secondly, to those that have a GGG spinner (and maybe RandyT could comment?), how much trouble does it look like you'd have to go through to add push and/or push/pull functionality to the spinner?  The link eludes me now, but didn't someone do this to an Oscar spinner or something?

[pointdablame]

I'm sure I'm goign to get some snarling behind some monitors for making this comment, but.. Since the SS spinner top is easily removeable, could the SS top fit on the GGG spinner?

I believe it was mentioned somewhere in the thread, but yeah, they should work fine.

Secondly, to those that have a GGG spinner (and maybe RandyT could comment?), how much trouble does it look like you'd have to go through to add push and/or push/pull functionality to the spinner?  The link eludes me now, but didn't someone do this to an Oscar spinner or something?

Oscar made a Push/Pull spinner, but I don't recall someone retrofitting one... I could be wrong though.  From the pictures, it seems like it would be a bit of work to get that done.  But I don't have a GGG spinner yet, so take my comment with a grain of salt.

[Witchboard]

Here's a question.  Will the encoder wheels by themselves be available for purchase?  I didn't read all the technical stuff so I'm not sure if the high resolution benefit is reliant on both the encoder wheel and the optic board, or just the wheel.  If it's just the wheel, it would be nice to upgrade my existing spinner.

[RandyT]

Ok, that's what I thought.   I just wanted to make the point that even though your spinner has higher resolution, it probably isn't the answer for Arkanoid ( and clones ).   Also, it seems to me that much of the 'feel' of the original Arkanoid spinner is due to the physical characteristics of the geared mechanism.

I'm not sure if it's the "answer" but it's a helluva good "guess"

Here's a trick for the die-hard Arkanoid fan:

Take a TurboTwist spinner and tie a lightly oiled leather shoelace around the body so it rides the metal cylinder at about center.  Adjust the tension on the leather so that the spinner turns easily, but stops dead when you remove force. 

Believe it or not, this works pretty well.  Don't bother with rubber or elastic materials as it adds spring (no good)

RandyT

[RandyT]

Here's a question.  Will the encoder wheels by themselves be available for purchase?  I didn't read all the technical stuff so I'm not sure if the high resolution benefit is reliant on both the encoder wheel and the optic board, or just the wheel.  If it's just the wheel, it would be nice to upgrade my existing spinner.

All components of the TurboTwist

[markrvp]

1up did the up/down hack:

[Kremmit]

Mark's Pic-Fu is weak.

[screaming]

1up did the up/down hack:

  Yes yes. that's who it was. I had it saved somewhere in my grand pile o' links..

  Anyway, I wonder how hackable the GGG spinner is? I'm hoping to at least get "push" functionality. Anyone who has a GGG spinner willing to comment on the possibility after taking a look at 1up's great work?

[Xiaou2]

 wow,  i didnt expect that the encoder wheel was (laser?)  printed.

 However... the question is... How it the encoder wheel centered?

 Are you having them laser cut?   As if the center hole is off by just a tiny bit,  it may greatly mess up the tracking from the resulting wobble motion.   

 Also, if someone were to loosen the screw..  and then re-tighten it... would the allignment still be perfect?   Meaning...  Is there any  'play'   between  the
encoder hole  and  the screw shaft?   

[SirPoonga]

I'm afraid the knobs are the best I could do for the money I had allotted for them in the price.  Consider them a "freebie" knob as the other option, I'm afraid, was not to include one.  They feel and work great for gameplay, but they aren't the prettiest.  You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to find a decent knob for an application like this without making your own ($$) or paying for a custom run ($$$).  I probably spent $100 on different knobs for testing before settling on this one.

Do you use the same shaft size at slikstik?  Then one would have a choice of many different styles and colors for knobs.

[RandyT]

However... the question is... How it the encoder wheel centered?

 Are you having them laser cut?   As if the center hole is off by just a tiny bit,  it may greatly mess up the tracking from the resulting wobble motion.   

 Also, if someone were to loosen the screw..  and then re-tighten it... would the allignment still be perfect?   Meaning...  Is there any  'play'   between  the
encoder hole  and  the screw shaft?   

The encoder wheels are made from multiple materials and are the result of a 10-step process.  They are very securely attached and 100% properly aligned.

There is never any reason to disassemble the unit, so the questions aren't really relevant.

RandyT

[brandon]

1up did the up/down hack:

  Yes yes. that's who it was. I had it saved somewhere in my grand pile o' links..

  Anyway, I wonder how hackable the GGG spinner is? I'm hoping to at least get "push" functionality. Anyone who has a GGG spinner willing to comment on the possibility after taking a look at 1up's great work?

I dont own the GGG spinner but I could think of a few ways that it and the SS spinner could be push/pull.   You do it similar to what 1up did having the spinner "samwiched" between springs... but instead of two on the spinner shaft you could use eight.  One pair of springs for each mounting bolt.   Then you could use the same type switch actuators to tell when the spinner moves up and down.. i dunno.. it could work..   Here's what I'm thinking..

[screaming]

I dont own the GGG spinner but I could think of a few ways that it and the SS spinner could be push/pull.   You do it similar to what 1up did having the spinner "samwiched" between springs... but instead of two on the spinner shaft you could use eight.  One pair of springs for each mounting bolt.   Then you could use the same type switch actuators to tell when the spinner moves up and down.. i dunno.. it could work..   Here's what I'm thinking..

  Good idea.. that way the spinner mechanics don't even come into the equation.  I'll file this idea away until I'm ready to implement it. Great idea!

[brandon]

  Good idea.. that way the spinner mechanics don't even come into the equation.  I'll file this idea away until I'm ready to implement it. Great idea!

yeah that's what I was thinking.. because the "axle" of the spinner wouldn't be effected at all so it should spin just like normal.  Perhaps GGG or SS could incorporate this into a future model by having the springs and all preassembled to a nice mounting plate instead of to the control panel as in my drawing.  Perhaps they could also send me a freebie for giving them my idea royalty-free 

[Havok]

Looks like a good idea in theory, but I would think you would have to be careful and make sure the outer diameter of the bolts exactly (or closely) matches the diameter of the mounting holes, otherwise you will have a wobbly spinner.

Good thing I don't like DOT...

<Havok ducks>

[rackoon]

OK I'm building a three sided cab that is going to have two (trackballs and a tornado spinner) run through an optipac. I have purchased my trackballs from poneyboy and was waiting to payday to buy a spinner and optipac or optiwiz. Then this comes out, Wow good timing. I have read all pages of this post and have one last question.

Can I save my self some money go with your spinner and skip buying a optiwiz or optipac? I suppose that the trackballs and spinner will all be active at the same time though. But couldn't I just have wired them all together anyway without your spinner board?

By the way I comend your creative products. It keeps the hobby fresh with ideas.

[NoOne=NBA=]

There is never any reason to disassemble the unit, so the questions aren't really relevant.

C'mon Randy, you know us better than that.
When have we ever needed a REASON to disassemble something?
It just being there is reason enough for most of us.

For me personally, the proper question would be "How do I put (insert name of completely functional device here) back together properly WHEN I disassemble it?".
"If" isn't really in the equation.
"Should I disassemble it" never usually occurs to me until AFTER it's been disassembled.

I've been like that since I ripped the giraffe off my jack-in-the-box at about age 3.
It annoyed me that I couldn't figure out how it worked, so I killed it to find out.

That was actually a functional improvement though.
I could chase my sister around the house after that, and SHOOT her with the giraffe.
I think she still visibly cringes when she hears "Pop Goes the Weasel" to this day.

[screaming]

  Good idea.. that way the spinner mechanics don't even come into the equation.  I'll file this idea away until I'm ready to implement it. Great idea!

yeah that's what I was thinking.. because the "axle" of the spinner wouldn't be effected at all so it should spin just like normal.  Perhaps GGG or SS could incorporate this into a future model by having the springs and all preassembled to a nice mounting plate instead of to the control panel as in my drawing.  Perhaps they could also send me a freebie for giving them my idea royalty-free 

  Hey I just thought of something.  What kind of clearance is there between the spinner box and the bottom of the spinner knob?

  You'll probably have to use a router and cut away some of the mdf (like you might do for mounting the trackball), which could affect stability (esp with people pounding on the spinner).  Hmm. I think you might need to make a mounting bracket of sorts to keep it strong.

[RandyT]

Can I save my self some money go with your spinner and skip buying a optiwiz or optipac? I suppose that the trackballs and spinner will all be active at the same time though. But couldn't I just have wired them all together anyway without your spinner board?

rackoon,

Please send me an email on how you are going to set up everything and we can sort through your options from there.

and everyone else;

Please give me any and all info you might have about "push-pull" spinners, like links to the original controls, how much push/pull force and or distance is required, etc...

I'm afraid I have to plead ignorance on this kind of control.  I loved DOT, but can't remember the control because I didn't have the opportunity to play it much (it wasn't around places I had access to, and it was one of the first 2 token games, as I recall, and I had a 1 token budget )

Thanks,
RandyT

[Captain_Dingo]

Funny, I had the exact same idea as brandon had, but in order to gain a bit of stability, I had an extra plate at the bottom (see my butchered version of brandon's picture).

Since I don't have the parts in front of me, I can only speculate if the clearances are sufficient to allow this to work.  If more clearance is needed, metal plates can be added to expand the footprint of the top and bottom piece of the spinner frame, and the long rods could be run through holes in the corners of those plates.

There are several places and several ways to mount a couple of microswitches to register the up/down motion.

[RandyT]

For me personally, the proper question would be "How do I put (insert name of completely functional device here) back together properly WHEN I disassemble it?".
"If" isn't really in the equation.
"Should I disassemble it" never usually occurs to me until AFTER it's been disassembled.

Heh.  Ok, take my statement as the answer to your self-posed "Should I disassemble it" question   If you are one of those people who can thread a needle on the first try and tell how many board feet of lumber were used to make the beer barrel the midget is sitting on in the photograph, then feel free to play.  Everyone else, should probably just leave it working .

I've been like that since I ripped the giraffe off my jack-in-the-box at about age 3.
It annoyed me that I couldn't figure out how it worked, so I killed it to find out.

That was actually a functional improvement though.
I could chase my sister around the house after that, and SHOOT her with the giraffe.
I think she still visibly cringes when she hears "Pop Goes the Weasel" to this day.

LOL.  I love it.  As someone who only had sisters as siblings, I can attest to the fact that there was little more entertaining than making them wish they only had sisters for siblings  .


I can almost hear the sounds of hacking already, so I'll jump in.  The top frame portion of the unit is 1/2" thick and it has 4 very nicely milled holes all the way through.  So the sharper amongst you will probably realize that the addition of 4 ground drill rods of the correct diameter and some white lithium grease will essentially create a very nice slide.  The thickness of the material will prevent rocking, so this shouldn't be a concern.

I will look at the possibility of this approach as an "add-on" kit, as soon as I find some information on the original control to see if approximation of its operation is possible.

Thanks for the suggestions.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

If anyone has any suggestions for sources of decent stock knobs they may have purchased in the past, please feel free to forward them to me.

Some guy named OscarControls made a really cool one with the MAME logo on it and all . . .   

Seriously - go to www.mcmaster.com - Search on knobs - Click Control Knobs - Click Control Knobs again - Click Comfort Grip Control Knobs - Look at Knob Number 5 - Looks like a good Arkanoid replacement.

Alternately, click Click Control Knobs - Click Control Knobs again - Click Fits Round shafts - Knobs 9, 10, 11, and 20 look like good Tempest knobs, and knobs 24 and 25 look like good general purpose knobs.

Someone with better link-fu than me might come up with a tiny url for those.

(It pays to have been around this scene since the Fultra spinner days).

Re: the original DOT spinner, see  the annoucement thread by OSCAR on the repro - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=6411.0 , as well as the www.archive.org version of his site (if it comes up).

If I had a complaint with OSCAR, it was that his controls were too accurate to the original, as opposed to working better but not as faithful, but in this case that might be helpful as I know his DOT was supposed to work as a drop-in replacement.  I also know he had access to an original DOT and think he may have discussed that in the referenced thread or similar announcement threads, so you could find info from them as well.

[JoyMonkey]

Seriously - go to www.mcmaster.com - Search on knobs - Click Control Knobs - Click Control Knobs again - Click Comfort Grip Control Knobs - Look at Knob Number 5 - Looks like a good Arkanoid replacement.

I did the exact same thing yesterday. I would have mentioned it, but I figured it would have been the first place Randy checked too. Maybe not.

[mahuti]

RandyT, I have an oscar DOT spinner that you could borrow for a while if it'd help. Otherwise, I can just relate its mechanics and take photos. 

[RandyT]

Seriously - go to www.mcmaster.com - Search on knobs - Click Control Knobs - Click Control Knobs again - Click Comfort Grip Control Knobs - Look at Knob Number 5 - Looks like a good Arkanoid replacement.

I did the exact same thing yesterday. I would have mentioned it, but I figured it would have been the first place Randy checked too. Maybe not.

Thanks for the suggestion, guys.  But that's where these come from .  I have one of the small "comfort grip" knobs, but they still seem too big in diameter.  They look nice, but the ideal 1.25" grip just isn't there (it's amazing what a quarter inch does to the feel of a control)

On another note, I finished the first knob design and it has been sent to the machinist.  I'll do a nice rendering and post it here for the usual "I think it sucks / when can I get one" 

RandyT, I have an oscar DOT spinner that you could borrow for a while if it'd help. Otherwise, I can just relate its mechanics and take photos. 

Thanks mahuti.  Another user was kind enough to forward a link to some pretty good pictures of the original unit, so I think I have some decent info.  Well, at least enough to know that I never want to use the design of the original   But I did see that the throw of the up/down isn't very far.

I already have a few ideas on the kit.   At this point, I really think it's possible to this with a handful of the right hardware and a couple of switches.  Finding the right hardware seems to be the challenge currently.

RandyT

[markrvp]

I'll do a nice rendering and post it here for the usual "I think it sucks / when can I get one" 

Ha Ha    Ha Ha    Ha Ha    Ha Ha    Ha Ha

Isn't that the damn truth?

[RandyT]

Ok, I just whipped up a rendering of the design I sent to the machinist.  Here it is:

This was my cool surprise.  The center of the knob will accept your favorite .984 diameter tokens like the ones Santoro is selling.  I purchased a bunch of these with this in mind so long ago, it isn't even funny.  I think the design on token shows the age.

As long as Saint and Santoro don't mind, I will be able to include a token in them.  But if anyone associated with them has objections, You will need to epoxy one in yourselves.

So....opinions?

RandyT

[pointdablame]

Very cool idea!  You could potentially swap in different tokens whenever you want if you offered a non-epoxied version.

Are the rings on the side rubberized, or just a design of the aluminum (or whatever it's made of)??

[RandyT]

Very cool idea!  You could potentially swap in different tokens whenever you want if you offered a non-epoxied version.

Are the rings on the side rubberized, or just a design of the aluminum (or whatever it's made of)??

Thanks.  And yes, one could use some thin temporary doublesticky to hold it in.

The rings are the material of the spinner.  If a user wanted to place some thin o-tings in the grooves between, that would be up to them.

RandyT

[AllisterFiend]

Great Idea Randy,

Will there ever be one in black?

My control panel is just all black and I think it would look good if I put one of my nickel tokens on the knob.


Allister Fiend

[Fozzy The Bear]

Hi Randy,
                 Are the tops of these the same size as a US Quarter.... I was thinking maybe glue one of those in....

I got given one in change the other day here in the UK Grrrr!.  They're almost identical in size to a UK 10 pence piece. Slightly thinner, but the diameter is the same.  For someone in the UK having a quarter in the top of the spinner is quite a cool idea. Although I'd guess that most Americans are asking why anybody would want to do that. LOL  

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[markrvp]

That sucks; how soon can I buy one?   

[Santoro]

I love it, no objections here.  Saint?

[Warborg]

Ok, I just whipped up a rendering of the design I sent to the machinist.  Here it is:

This was my cool surprise.  The center of the knob will accept your favorite .987 diameter token like the one Santoro is selling.  I purchased a buch of these with this in mind so long ago, it isn't even funny.  I think the design on token shows the age.

As long as Saint and Santoro don't mind, I will be able to include a token in them.  But if anyone associated with them has objections, You will need to epoxy one in yourselves.

So....opinions?

RandyT

Uhm...  Can I order one tonight? 

As someone else had asked, will these be available in black?

And I want one with the token in it, just as it's pictured...