New Product: Opti-Wiz

[Kremmit]

I know the Betson and Happ wire up the same.  Never had a Wico. 

Mark, you got any Atari TB's?

[markrvp]

I have no Atari trackballs.  I do have Happ & Betson.

[Kremmit]

Same here.  Anybody want to loan out an Atari TB for testing?  Or trade for a Betson?  I'd throw in a mouse hack with the Betson.

[specfire]

Well, I have three 3" Atari TB's.  I also have a few harnesses somewhere that connect the two encoder boards from a single TB.  The Atari encoder boards have 4 pins each.....ok, I just found one of the harnesses and it terminates into a molex type 6 pin plug (in a 2 by 3 pattern.)  The wiring colours for the harness is exactly the same as the picture that markvp has posted from Kelsey's site.  I can take some pictures if you wish but the camera is currently located in the bedroom and the wife is sleeping (which is what I should be doing too )

I could certainly loan one out but since I have just replaced the bearings and rollers in all three of them, I don't think I want a Betson in trade.  Maybe a vortex spinner?    For reference, I would be shipping from the Toronto, ON, CAN area.

spec

[wakerlet]

I know the Betson and Happ wire up the same.

[RayB]

Wait. You can't just lump Atari trackballs all together.

There are the Atari trackballs in plastic housings that use 4 pin optics. I think those are probably just Wicos (though someone should confirm this). And then there are the pre-Centipede trackballs they made out of machined metal. I think the optics might be different on those. I know there are some Atari optics with alot more than 4 pins.

[pointdablame]

Randy,

If you have a trackball and spinner hooked up to this simultaneously, is there anything put in place similar to the OptiPac where one controls is disabled while the other is in use?  Or will you potentially be able to ruin your friend's Centipede score with a swift spin of your spinner?   

Just curious and didn't see it mentioned in the thread.

[markrvp]

Randy,

If you have a trackball and spinner hooked up to this simultaneously, is there anything put in place similar to the OptiPac where one controls is disabled while the other is in use?

[SirPoonga]

Let me take a guess at it.  I'm betting RandyT is going to say no.  The circuit looks like it is just a typical mouse microcontroller chip with header pins instead of IR componants.  Am I right?

[RandyT]

Let me take a guess at it.  I'm betting RandyT is going to say no.  The circuit looks like it is just a typical mouse microcontroller chip with header pins instead of IR componants.  Am I right?

Mark has it correct (I knew I picked him to Beta for a reason ).  It reports as a mouse with 3-Axes.  As long as you can configure your application to use the Axes properly, you won't need to worry about one affecting the other.

The board uses a generic USB microcontroller, not a "mouse microcontroller chip".  It reports itself to Windows as an "Opti-Wiz" with a device type of HID Compliant Mouse when in USB mode.  As a point of reference, just the chip used in this device costs more than 2 whole "bargain basement mice".

RandyT

[SirPoonga]

The board uses a generic USB microcontroller, not a "mouse microcontroller chip".  It reports itself to Windows as an "Opti-Wiz" with a device type of HID Compliant Mouse when in USB mode.  As a point of reference, just the chip used in this device costs more than 2 whole "bargain basement mice".

Interesting, didn't go for the pre-programmed chips.  Any particular reason, or just wanted it to show up at OptiWiz in windows?

I'm looking at the board pic.  What's the deal with the two blank boxes with 4 contact points each.  Also with the pads labels X, Y, and Z solder points for the axis in addition to the header pins?  Aso the three holes behind the usb port?  Just wondering what all the possibilities are...

[RandyT]

The board uses a generic USB microcontroller, not a "mouse microcontroller chip".  It reports itself to Windows as an "Opti-Wiz" with a device type of HID Compliant Mouse when in USB mode.  As a point of reference, just the chip used in this device costs more than 2 whole "bargain basement mice".

Interesting, didn't go for the pre-programmed chips.  Any particular reason, or just wanted it to show up at OptiWiz in windows?

Yeah, a big one.  These chips run 3-4 times faster than the typical mouse processor.  I think we did this dance once with the GP-Wiz.  Just like a $2 joypad can't stack up to the performance of a full blown microcontroller with code optimized for that purpose, don't think that just because a device looks like a mouse to the computer that the hardware used is the same as that of a $2 mouse.

I'm looking at the board pic.  What's the deal with the two blank boxes with 4 contact points each.  Also with the pads labels X, Y, and Z solder points for the axis in addition to the header pins?  Aso the three holes behind the usb port?  Just wondering what all the possibilities are...

Consider those things for future use by GGG, but also:

2 blank boxes:  Solder in a couple of opto-switches and a resistor and BAM! (Emeril or Batman, you decide)  You have fully integrated optical board for making your own optical controls.

Pads:  This is how you select which axis your homebrew optical controls use.

3 Holes:  This is where the PS/2 connector goes for those who would rather the device hook to that port without using an adapter (mainly for the DOS crowd).

RandyT

[RayB]

Any chance this will work in DOS?

[RandyT]

Any chance this will work in DOS?

If you have a PS/2 driver, then yes.


RandyT

[SirPoonga]

Yeah, a big one.  These chips run 3-4 times faster than the typical mouse processor.  I think we did this dance once with the GP-Wiz.  Just like a $2 joypad can't stack up to the performance of a full blown microcontroller with code optimized for that purpose, don't think that just because a device looks like a mouse to the computer that the hardware used is the same as that of a $2 mouse.

This sounds confusing.  So you are saying the code in my mouse isn't optimized to be a mouse or just that you used a faster chip than most mice, which I assume is to eliminate backspin?

[ptpeter]

anyone have an idea when this is coming out?

[RayB]

This sounds confusing.

[pointdablame]

Mark has it correct (I knew I picked him to Beta for a reason ).  It reports as a mouse with 3-Axes.  As long as you can configure your application to use the Axes properly, you won't need to worry about one affecting the other.

Very cool. Makes a lot of sense now that you and Mark said it, but it didn't click at first.  Not much chance of interference if it's using a different axis.

And I'll echo ptpeter... any ballpark estimates on when this will be officially available Randy?  and maybe an estimate on those prewired molex cables?

[RandyT]

Yeah, a big one.  These chips run 3-4 times faster than the typical mouse processor.  I think we did this dance once with the GP-Wiz.  Just like a $2 joypad can't stack up to the performance of a full blown microcontroller with code optimized for that purpose, don't think that just because a device looks like a mouse to the computer that the hardware used is the same as that of a $2 mouse.

This sounds confusing.  So you are saying the code in my mouse isn't optimized to be a mouse or just that you used a faster chip than most mice, which I assume is to eliminate backspin?

Not sure what you find confusing.  Many times code is optimized to overcome limitations in hardware and does not necessarily reflect the optimal implementation for the device it is used as.  The major driver for this kind of thing is cost.

Let's make this simpler:  Suppose you were designing a 3-axis mouse and had a target price for the controller of 40 cents (in 10,000 quantities, of course ).  Now suppose the only controller you could get for that price had a slow microcontroller that had just enough horsepower to be an acceptable 2 axis mouse.  What do you do?  You make decisions about what is important for the particular market you are designing for and start selective crippling.  Maybe you make the resolution of the encoders coarser so you don't have to sample as often and can dedicate the extra cycles to sampling the 3rd axis.  Or maybe you just split the bandwidth and live with occasional backspin issues because for the price, you figure your market won't care.  Or, you could just do what most do and make a very coarse Z resolution because it doesn't need a lot of attention from the processor as the "wheel".

Just because it's a mouse, doesn't mean it's been optimized to be a very good mouse.  It's more likely been optimized to be the best mouse it can be on hardware platform X.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

It reports as a mouse with 3-Axes.

[pointdablame]

The Opti-Wiz elegantly avoids this problem, but the Z-axis setup is fairly MAME-limited.  (In other words, if you wanted to use your spinner with a PC driving game, or most other non-MAME emulators, I don't think most of them would allow you to control the action using (for all intents and purposes) the mouse scroll wheel).

Is this the case even though Randy has explained that his chip far exceeds the performance of regular mice?  I obviously know none of the technical details behind the Opti-Wiz, but Randy's explanation leads me to believe his board my be able to use all 3 axes at a much higher refresh rate/speed.

If this is the case, and the Z-axis is actually fairly robust in terms of speed (say, in line with the X and Y axes of a regular mouse), it may be possible to use the spinner in non-MAME games.

Just a thought.  Hopefully Randy can let us know which is the case. (Or some of the beta testers)

EDIT:  I had a bit of a brain fart there and totally missed the main point of your post Tiger.    I guess it wouldn't be very common for newer PC games to allow you to map controls to the scroll wheel.  I'm still curious about the speed of the Z-axis on the Opti-Wiz compared to a run-of-the-mill mouse though.

[SirPoonga]

If this is the case, and the Z-axis is actually fairly robust in terms of speed (say, in line with the X and Y axes of a regular mouse), it may be possible to use the spinner in non-MAME games.

Well yeah, if the game can see the mouse wheel.  You could use it to change weapons in quake1.

[pointdablame]

If this is the case, and the Z-axis is actually fairly robust in terms of speed (say, in line with the X and Y axes of a regular mouse), it may be possible to use the spinner in non-MAME games.

Well yeah, if the game can see the mouse wheel.  You could use it to change weapons in quake1.

Yeah.. I missed that at first.  I was just thinking of it as a "better Z axis" but didn't think of how few games (if any) allow you to map controls to the mouse wheel.

[Tiger-Heli]

EDIT:

[RandyT]

I'm still curious about the speed of the Z-axis on the Opti-Wiz compared to a run-of-the-mill mouse though.

Tiger-Heli is correct.

The Z-axis is every bit as fast as the X and Y.  They are all processed equally.

Just for reference purposes, with this chip, the routine that scans and processes the activity on all 3 axis takes only .000033 seconds to complete.  Of course it needs to transmit data once in a while as well, but it even scans in the middle of that process so as not to miss a beat.

Oh, and no light guns.  Different kind of optical.

RandyT

[markrvp]

It did not arrive today, so I am hoping to get it tomorrow for exhaustive tests over the weekend.  I'm getting really excited as the discussion in this thread progresses

[RandyT]

Ok, SirP, you got your wish. 

I just wired up the molex 6-pin female to 10-pin female header wire harness.  Plugged it in and pure TB satisfaction (after I completely rebuilt the WICO trackball some dirtbag misrepresented on Ebay....Grrrrrrr).

So we will be offering cables as well.  They are time consuming to make, had to buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff to gear up,  yadda, yadda, $12.95 .

BTW, if anyone was ever wondering if the trackball boosters work on a WICO, they do

RandyT

[Popcorrin]

I'm glad to hear about the resolution of the Z axis.  I read somewhere that in most mice the Z axis doesn't have near the resolution as the X and Y.   Since your board overcomes that obstacle it will work perfectly for an offroad cabinet I was planning on converting.

[Kremmit]

I got mine before Mark- Neener, Neener, Neener!

I only had so much time to play with it tonight, and I'll be out tomorrow night, so I may not have any updates for a couple days, but here's what I can report:

• It's pretty small- about 1"x3", although I haven't actually measured it.
• It works in Windows XP Pro just fine, no drivers or install hassle.
• It works with a Betson-Imperial trackball just fine.
• It works with an Oscar optic board just fine.
• The Z-axis works in Windows; right this second, my scroll whell is a DOT spinner. 
• It doesn't seem to mind if I hot-swap the axes; I've moved the spinner from the x-axis to the z-axis and back while the Opti-Wiz is plugged in, and had no issues- I don't know if that's covered under the warranty, though!
• There are two header pins each for +5v and ground, plus another ground pin with the button header.  I connected both +5v lines from the trackball to one pin on the Opti-Wiz, and ditto for the ground.  Worked fine.  The buttons also seem to be able to use the same ground connection as the axes, if you don't want to wire the one provided on the button header.

To Do:

• I haven't had a chance to try to get the Z-axis working with MAME.
• I still have a lot of other hardware to try to hook up.
• Play some games!

 

Stay tuned!

[Kremmit]

Adding to the list of known compatible optics:

Taito Arkanoid spinner (the optic board on these says Wico right on it, so I imagine any Wico spinner is probably fine.
Betson/Imperial trackball
Happ trackball
Atari Pole Position wheel
Atari Roadblasters wheel
Atari Blasteroids spinner

All of the above work fine with the Opti-Wiz, using their original optic cards. 

The Oscar optic cards work too.

[markrvp]

I can also confirm that the OptiWiz works perfectly with:

Betson Imperial Trackball
Happ Trackball
Oscar Optic Board (both in a spinner and in a 360 degree wheel)


Games tested with above hardware:

Golden Tee Golf (3D and 2K)
Centipede
Missile Command
Shuuz
World Class Bowling
Crystal Castles
Marble Madness
Super Sprint
Tempest
Major Havoc

I have the trackball hooked up to the X & Y axes.

[Timoe]

Does it mount to the bottom of your CP alright?  I cant tell from the picture how many screws hold it down.

[markrvp]

2 screws with standoffs.  As long as nothing is getting moved around or pulled, one screw would hold it or just set it inside your CP.

[markrvp]

A huge benefit I see on this encoder compared to a mouse hack is the USB-B connector.  It provides peace of mind that your soldered-on wires won't get pulled loose.  These pics show a comparison of the OptiWiz to one of Oscar's mousehacks.

[markrvp]

For size reference, here is the encoder sitting on top of a Happ 3" trackball

[Tiger-Heli]

Markrvp may be the perfect one to ask this - I have an off-the-wall question -

Kremmit said that the board is approximately 1"x3".  I am wondering if it would be possible to mount the board inside a 2-1/4" Happ T-ball (http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/565500xxe.htm) or 3" (http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/560100e.htm) or the Ultimarc 2-1/4 (http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html) trackball enclosure.  Dimensions on the site suggest it wouldn't work except for MAYBE the 3", but Ultimarc (and maybe Happ) have those slide-on covers and I am thinking it might fit in there.

My idea is to make something similar to http://www.cheeptech.com/cuhack.html, but with real arcade controls and without hacking an Atari 2600 trackball or fitting to a Radio Shack enclosure.  This way you could just buy a trackball and Opti-Wiz, modify the case, and have a plug and play solution for any games that wanted a trackball.

Thoughts???

A huge benefit I see on this encoder compared to a mouse hack is the USB-B connector.  It provides peace of mind that your soldered-on wires won't get pulled loose.

Agreed.  Another benefit is that USB A-B cables are readily available inexpensively in various lengths. 

[markrvp]

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't fit inside any of the production trackball cases, but you could easily velcro or hot glue it to the side or bottom.  In fact, one of my early ideas was that it could easily be connected to the bottom of a Happ trackball.  The total hight of the Happ 3" trackball case is 2-3/4" so your box wouldn't have to be very tall to still accommodate it.

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't fit inside any of the production trackball cases, but you could easily velcro or hot glue it to the side or bottom.

[RayB]

I hope some of the beta testers are going to test this thing out in true DOS mode?

[markrvp]

I can't help you there.