New Product: Opti-Wiz

[RandyT]

Available Now/b]:

High-Performance 3-Axis, 3-button Mouse Emulation.

USB and PS/2 compatible.  Will be available with either connector, but is compatible with both using an adapter.

Connections for 3 buttons, 3 axes, +5v and Ground.

With the addition of a resistor and 2 opto-interrupters, can be used as a full optical board for home-made controls with X, Y or Z Axis selectability.

Small Footprint

USB or PS/2 cable included.

$16.95 as shown or $14.95 without headers.


*edit*

Device compatibility testers have been selected.  No more emails please.

Thanks! (and Happy New Year )

RandyT

[markrvp]

PM Sent

[pointdablame]

Very very cool   I only have one trackball around right now, but this could come in handy once for me once they are officially available.

Great work Randy... any chance you have some more surprises in store for us     

[Kremmit]

PM also sent.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Too dang busy to test one at the moment, but I'm interested in buying one, when they become "officially" available.
Sounds like the perfect candidate for the 3-P driving cab I have planned, and may actually get to build....someday.

[RobotronNut]

Great work Randy... any chance you have some more surprises in store for us     

Like a small-footprint  up/down spinner for Discs of Tron???     

[Jabba]

Great work Randy... any chance you have some more surprises in store for us

[RandyT]

Great work Randy... any chance you have some more surprises in store for us     

Like a small-footprint  up/down spinner for Discs of Tron???     

It's going to be a while before I can look at something like that.  I have a few thoughts about how to approach the construction of one though.

Those with a trained eye will notice that this is also an optics board.  Just missing a couple of components  

Maybe an Mini-Wiz (all in one)?     BTW: I sent you a PM and also forgot to mention I have a spinner as well...

Those who know me,  know my opinions on "one chip" solutions as they relate to optical controls.  Speed is especially important with these types of devices and I believe they deserve their own interface.  So it's unlikely you will see an "all-in-one" from me, unless it has two processors/ports on it.

Thanks for all of the offers from potential testers.  I've decided to send out two of them and the recipients have been selected.  Markrvp and Kremmit will be helping me out with this one.

RandyT

[Jabba]

Those who know me,

[whammoed]

Awesome.  For those of us with more than one trackball: Will you be able to ship these with different names like you do the GP-Wiz so they stay in the correct order after each reboot?

[RandyT]

Awesome.  For those of us with more than one trackball: Will you be able to ship these with different names like you do the GP-Wiz so they stay in the correct order after each reboot?

Yep....


RandyT

[PoDunkMoFo]

Does mame support 3 axis... err axi um.... axissis per mouse?

Would you need analog mame to make this work?

I am definitely interested in ordering one of these.

Damn you ,quicker than me beta, tester requesters!!!!!

[Fozzy The Bear]

Does mame support 3 axis... err axi um.... axissis per mouse?

Would you need analog mame to make this work?

Mame supports whatever devices are recognised as controlers in windows... So effectively you could use this to power a trackball and a spinner, and no you don't need any special version of mame. You Just have to tell it what controls you're using.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[KonkeyKong]

could this be used to build a Star Wars yoke perhaps?

[Kremmit]

could this be used to build a Star Wars yoke perhaps?

Real Star Wars yokes use potentiometers, not optics.  Somebody did build a homebrew Star Wars yoke based on optics several years ago.  I can't find a link for it (anyone?), but I believe the trouble was that it would lose calibration after a bit of play time.  I think he eventually ditched the optics and put pots on there instead.

Does mame support 3 axis... err axi um.... axissis per mouse?

Would you need analog mame to make this work?

The mouse Z-Axis works in MAME as of 0.94u3.  I believe U_Rebel had it in Analog+ a while before that.

Randy-  Looking forward to it!

[SirPoonga]

Are you going to have a cable that can jsut plug into a trackball?  I believe the 6 pins of a tball are standardized.  If not I know wico and happ are the same as they are meant to be able to replace each other.  competition and all.

[pointdablame]

Are you going to have a cable that can jsut plug into a trackball?  I believe the 6 pins of a tball are standardized.  If not I know wico and happ are the same as they are meant to be able to replace each other.  competition and all.

that would be great.  If you could make a cable to just plug right into a Happ trackball, you'd sell them like crazy.  I'd certainly buy one.

[rdagger]

Mame supports whatever devices are recognised as controlers in windows... So effectively you could use this to power a trackball and a spinner, and no you don't need any special version of mame. You Just have to tell it what controls you're using.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Most mice are now 3 axes (X, Y and the scroll wheel is Z).
I recently tried to get MAME to recognize my mouse's scroll wheel and I could not get it to work.

[Kremmit]

U_Rebel claims the MAMEdevs added his z-axis code in this post here:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=33453.msg290575#msg290575

[Tiger-Heli]

Real Star Wars yokes use potentiometers, not optics.

[daywane]

3 axis?
mouse = x and z
x =  (east and west)
z= (north and south)
y= up and down?
like a button?
I am confused

I work with mill lathes at work
x - will make the part smaller in diam.
x+ larger in diam
z- shorter in length
z+ longer in length
I have no Y ( I assume "Y" is up and down)
I just do not get it. I must be over thinking this

[SirPoonga]

Z is used for the scroll wheel.

[RandyT]

Would you need analog mame to make this work?

You will need either XP or Analog Mame to enable two mice controlling separate players, otherwise, no standard MAME will work.  (Two-player CABAL, Marble Madness, etc. needs Analog Plus or XP).

But not if you are using the axes individually for each controller (say 1 trackball and 1 spinner) or ?

RandyT

[markrvp]

3 axis?
mouse = x and z
x =

[Havok]

Would you need analog mame to make this work?

You will need either XP or Analog Mame to enable two mice controlling separate players, otherwise, no standard MAME will work.

[RandyT]

So, just to confirm: I could use just this one inexpensive controller for both a spinner (X), AND a trackball (Y + Z), PLUS 3 mouse buttons (left, center, right)?

Probably more like X and Y for the Trackball and Z for the spinner.  But I'll wait until I hear from the testers on that one.

RandyT

[RetroACTIVE]

Probably more like X and Y for the Trackball and Z for the spinner.  But I'll wait until I hear from the testers on that one.

Man am I psyched.. I love your product line... you offer the most scalable solutions to date...

I'm ripping out my USB trackball interface, I bought 3 optical boards from Happ and will be getting your optiwiz when it is available to handle the trackball and spinner... I just got your 49 way controller, I am planning on the ledwiz and any other "led" related products when they become available.

thanks for doing this... I hope it is all very successfull for you

Jim

[19rjs99]

Looking forward to your release... Great job Randy. 

[daywane]

I am happy with my first order from you just before Xmas and recieved Xmas eve,
I will probably order one.

I have a opti pac ( not hooked up yet) but still would like to try them out side by side.

[whammoed]

Awesome.

[RayB]

I have to ask, why are there two large LEDs in your advertisement?
 

[RandyT]

I have to ask, why are there two large LEDs in your advertisement?
 

Cuz they's purdy!


Besides, what do you think makes a spinner or trackball "optical" ?




RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

I have to ask, why are there two large LEDs in your advertisement?
 

Cuz they's purdy!
Besides, what do you think makes a spinner or trackball "optical" ?

RandyT

Perhaps also to tie into the LED-WIZ and the fact that LED's are also going to be available from GGG soon (if not already).

Great job on that project also, btw, RandyT!!!!

[Havok]

Randy - it looks like you have left room on the board to mount the 2 opto-interrupters and perhaps the resistor, so this could be mounted to the spinner directly. Is this what is planned as an option?

If so, that would work great for how I would like to use this product. Plus, I would like to add to the requests that you produce a spinner!

Thanks, and keep up the good work...

[wakerlet]

Thanks for all of the offers from potential testers.

[Lilwolf]

Looks amazing!  SUPER GLAD to see a product in the price range!

Oh Oh.... hot swap optic boards?  doable?? 

As for the optics...  I don't know what your plan is, but wouldn't it be easier not to add optics directly on the board?  Since there are two (assuming where the optics go... bottom left? )  but that wouldn't be all that useful.  One might be (so you can just move it up next to an spinner and mount the whole thing there... or maybe a super small optic board that can be used in place of many others (so just the bare minimum optics super small easy to put on any board). 

Anyway, let us know what the plan is.

btw, will these work with Oscars optic boards?  (and Kelsey, doe you still have them around if they do work?)

[RandyT]

Are you going to have a cable that can jsut plug into a trackball?  I believe the 6 pins of a tball are standardized.  If not I know wico and happ are the same as they are meant to be able to replace each other.  competition and all.

The crimp tool, female 6-pin housings and terminals are on the way.  I have an old WICO here, but haven't bugged out the pins yet.  Anyone have pinouts for this connector for the HAPP so I can compare?

...If so, that would work great for how I would like to use this product. Plus, I would like to add to the requests that you produce a spinner!

Way ahead of you

Oh Oh.... hot swap optic boards?  doable?? 

Hmmm...should be doable.  What did you have in mind? 

As for the optics...  I don't know what your plan is, but wouldn't it be easier not to add optics directly on the board?  Since there are two (assuming where the optics go... bottom left? )  but that wouldn't be all that useful.  One might be (so you can just move it up next to an spinner and mount the whole thing there... or maybe a super small optic board that can be used in place of many others (so just the bare minimum optics super small easy to put on any board). 

You have to have 2 opto-switches.  Just one will tell you something moved, but not give a direction.  The boards where you see just one black component have 2 LEDs and 2 photo-transistors built into it, unless it is just a limit switch or counter for something.

RandyT

[markrvp]

Here is the pinout from Oscar's site.

[Tiger-Heli]

I have an old WICO here, but haven't bugged out the pins yet.

[SirPoonga]

Are you going to have a cable that can jsut plug into a trackball?  I believe the 6 pins of a tball are standardized.  If not I know wico and happ are the same as they are meant to be able to replace each other.  competition and all.

The crimp tool, female 6-pin housings and terminals are on the way.  I have an old WICO here, but haven't bugged out the pins yet.  Anyone have pinouts for this connector for the HAPP so I can compare?

It should be the same as I used the same cable when I switched from wico to happ.  But I can verify what pin is what when I get home.

[Kremmit]

I know the Betson and Happ wire up the same.  Never had a Wico. 

Mark, you got any Atari TB's?

[markrvp]

I have no Atari trackballs.  I do have Happ & Betson.

[Kremmit]

Same here.  Anybody want to loan out an Atari TB for testing?  Or trade for a Betson?  I'd throw in a mouse hack with the Betson.

[specfire]

Well, I have three 3" Atari TB's.  I also have a few harnesses somewhere that connect the two encoder boards from a single TB.  The Atari encoder boards have 4 pins each.....ok, I just found one of the harnesses and it terminates into a molex type 6 pin plug (in a 2 by 3 pattern.)  The wiring colours for the harness is exactly the same as the picture that markvp has posted from Kelsey's site.  I can take some pictures if you wish but the camera is currently located in the bedroom and the wife is sleeping (which is what I should be doing too )

I could certainly loan one out but since I have just replaced the bearings and rollers in all three of them, I don't think I want a Betson in trade.  Maybe a vortex spinner?    For reference, I would be shipping from the Toronto, ON, CAN area.

spec

[wakerlet]

I know the Betson and Happ wire up the same.

[RayB]

Wait. You can't just lump Atari trackballs all together.

There are the Atari trackballs in plastic housings that use 4 pin optics. I think those are probably just Wicos (though someone should confirm this). And then there are the pre-Centipede trackballs they made out of machined metal. I think the optics might be different on those. I know there are some Atari optics with alot more than 4 pins.

[pointdablame]

Randy,

If you have a trackball and spinner hooked up to this simultaneously, is there anything put in place similar to the OptiPac where one controls is disabled while the other is in use?  Or will you potentially be able to ruin your friend's Centipede score with a swift spin of your spinner?   

Just curious and didn't see it mentioned in the thread.

[markrvp]

Randy,

If you have a trackball and spinner hooked up to this simultaneously, is there anything put in place similar to the OptiPac where one controls is disabled while the other is in use?

[SirPoonga]

Let me take a guess at it.  I'm betting RandyT is going to say no.  The circuit looks like it is just a typical mouse microcontroller chip with header pins instead of IR componants.  Am I right?

[RandyT]

Let me take a guess at it.  I'm betting RandyT is going to say no.  The circuit looks like it is just a typical mouse microcontroller chip with header pins instead of IR componants.  Am I right?

Mark has it correct (I knew I picked him to Beta for a reason ).  It reports as a mouse with 3-Axes.  As long as you can configure your application to use the Axes properly, you won't need to worry about one affecting the other.

The board uses a generic USB microcontroller, not a "mouse microcontroller chip".  It reports itself to Windows as an "Opti-Wiz" with a device type of HID Compliant Mouse when in USB mode.  As a point of reference, just the chip used in this device costs more than 2 whole "bargain basement mice".

RandyT

[SirPoonga]

The board uses a generic USB microcontroller, not a "mouse microcontroller chip".  It reports itself to Windows as an "Opti-Wiz" with a device type of HID Compliant Mouse when in USB mode.  As a point of reference, just the chip used in this device costs more than 2 whole "bargain basement mice".

Interesting, didn't go for the pre-programmed chips.  Any particular reason, or just wanted it to show up at OptiWiz in windows?

I'm looking at the board pic.  What's the deal with the two blank boxes with 4 contact points each.  Also with the pads labels X, Y, and Z solder points for the axis in addition to the header pins?  Aso the three holes behind the usb port?  Just wondering what all the possibilities are...

[RandyT]

The board uses a generic USB microcontroller, not a "mouse microcontroller chip".  It reports itself to Windows as an "Opti-Wiz" with a device type of HID Compliant Mouse when in USB mode.  As a point of reference, just the chip used in this device costs more than 2 whole "bargain basement mice".

Interesting, didn't go for the pre-programmed chips.  Any particular reason, or just wanted it to show up at OptiWiz in windows?

Yeah, a big one.  These chips run 3-4 times faster than the typical mouse processor.  I think we did this dance once with the GP-Wiz.  Just like a $2 joypad can't stack up to the performance of a full blown microcontroller with code optimized for that purpose, don't think that just because a device looks like a mouse to the computer that the hardware used is the same as that of a $2 mouse.

I'm looking at the board pic.  What's the deal with the two blank boxes with 4 contact points each.  Also with the pads labels X, Y, and Z solder points for the axis in addition to the header pins?  Aso the three holes behind the usb port?  Just wondering what all the possibilities are...

Consider those things for future use by GGG, but also:

2 blank boxes:  Solder in a couple of opto-switches and a resistor and BAM! (Emeril or Batman, you decide)  You have fully integrated optical board for making your own optical controls.

Pads:  This is how you select which axis your homebrew optical controls use.

3 Holes:  This is where the PS/2 connector goes for those who would rather the device hook to that port without using an adapter (mainly for the DOS crowd).

RandyT

[RayB]

Any chance this will work in DOS?

[RandyT]

Any chance this will work in DOS?

If you have a PS/2 driver, then yes.


RandyT

[SirPoonga]

Yeah, a big one.  These chips run 3-4 times faster than the typical mouse processor.  I think we did this dance once with the GP-Wiz.  Just like a $2 joypad can't stack up to the performance of a full blown microcontroller with code optimized for that purpose, don't think that just because a device looks like a mouse to the computer that the hardware used is the same as that of a $2 mouse.

This sounds confusing.  So you are saying the code in my mouse isn't optimized to be a mouse or just that you used a faster chip than most mice, which I assume is to eliminate backspin?

[ptpeter]

anyone have an idea when this is coming out?

[RayB]

This sounds confusing.

[pointdablame]

Mark has it correct (I knew I picked him to Beta for a reason ).  It reports as a mouse with 3-Axes.  As long as you can configure your application to use the Axes properly, you won't need to worry about one affecting the other.

Very cool. Makes a lot of sense now that you and Mark said it, but it didn't click at first.  Not much chance of interference if it's using a different axis.

And I'll echo ptpeter... any ballpark estimates on when this will be officially available Randy?  and maybe an estimate on those prewired molex cables?

[RandyT]

Yeah, a big one.  These chips run 3-4 times faster than the typical mouse processor.  I think we did this dance once with the GP-Wiz.  Just like a $2 joypad can't stack up to the performance of a full blown microcontroller with code optimized for that purpose, don't think that just because a device looks like a mouse to the computer that the hardware used is the same as that of a $2 mouse.

This sounds confusing.  So you are saying the code in my mouse isn't optimized to be a mouse or just that you used a faster chip than most mice, which I assume is to eliminate backspin?

Not sure what you find confusing.  Many times code is optimized to overcome limitations in hardware and does not necessarily reflect the optimal implementation for the device it is used as.  The major driver for this kind of thing is cost.

Let's make this simpler:  Suppose you were designing a 3-axis mouse and had a target price for the controller of 40 cents (in 10,000 quantities, of course ).  Now suppose the only controller you could get for that price had a slow microcontroller that had just enough horsepower to be an acceptable 2 axis mouse.  What do you do?  You make decisions about what is important for the particular market you are designing for and start selective crippling.  Maybe you make the resolution of the encoders coarser so you don't have to sample as often and can dedicate the extra cycles to sampling the 3rd axis.  Or maybe you just split the bandwidth and live with occasional backspin issues because for the price, you figure your market won't care.  Or, you could just do what most do and make a very coarse Z resolution because it doesn't need a lot of attention from the processor as the "wheel".

Just because it's a mouse, doesn't mean it's been optimized to be a very good mouse.  It's more likely been optimized to be the best mouse it can be on hardware platform X.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

It reports as a mouse with 3-Axes.

[pointdablame]

The Opti-Wiz elegantly avoids this problem, but the Z-axis setup is fairly MAME-limited.  (In other words, if you wanted to use your spinner with a PC driving game, or most other non-MAME emulators, I don't think most of them would allow you to control the action using (for all intents and purposes) the mouse scroll wheel).

Is this the case even though Randy has explained that his chip far exceeds the performance of regular mice?  I obviously know none of the technical details behind the Opti-Wiz, but Randy's explanation leads me to believe his board my be able to use all 3 axes at a much higher refresh rate/speed.

If this is the case, and the Z-axis is actually fairly robust in terms of speed (say, in line with the X and Y axes of a regular mouse), it may be possible to use the spinner in non-MAME games.

Just a thought.  Hopefully Randy can let us know which is the case. (Or some of the beta testers)

EDIT:  I had a bit of a brain fart there and totally missed the main point of your post Tiger.    I guess it wouldn't be very common for newer PC games to allow you to map controls to the scroll wheel.  I'm still curious about the speed of the Z-axis on the Opti-Wiz compared to a run-of-the-mill mouse though.

[SirPoonga]

If this is the case, and the Z-axis is actually fairly robust in terms of speed (say, in line with the X and Y axes of a regular mouse), it may be possible to use the spinner in non-MAME games.

Well yeah, if the game can see the mouse wheel.  You could use it to change weapons in quake1.

[pointdablame]

If this is the case, and the Z-axis is actually fairly robust in terms of speed (say, in line with the X and Y axes of a regular mouse), it may be possible to use the spinner in non-MAME games.

Well yeah, if the game can see the mouse wheel.  You could use it to change weapons in quake1.

Yeah.. I missed that at first.  I was just thinking of it as a "better Z axis" but didn't think of how few games (if any) allow you to map controls to the mouse wheel.

[Tiger-Heli]

EDIT:

[RandyT]

I'm still curious about the speed of the Z-axis on the Opti-Wiz compared to a run-of-the-mill mouse though.

Tiger-Heli is correct.

The Z-axis is every bit as fast as the X and Y.  They are all processed equally.

Just for reference purposes, with this chip, the routine that scans and processes the activity on all 3 axis takes only .000033 seconds to complete.  Of course it needs to transmit data once in a while as well, but it even scans in the middle of that process so as not to miss a beat.

Oh, and no light guns.  Different kind of optical.

RandyT

[markrvp]

It did not arrive today, so I am hoping to get it tomorrow for exhaustive tests over the weekend.  I'm getting really excited as the discussion in this thread progresses

[RandyT]

Ok, SirP, you got your wish. 

I just wired up the molex 6-pin female to 10-pin female header wire harness.  Plugged it in and pure TB satisfaction (after I completely rebuilt the WICO trackball some dirtbag misrepresented on Ebay....Grrrrrrr).

So we will be offering cables as well.  They are time consuming to make, had to buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff to gear up,  yadda, yadda, $12.95 .

BTW, if anyone was ever wondering if the trackball boosters work on a WICO, they do

RandyT

[Popcorrin]

I'm glad to hear about the resolution of the Z axis.  I read somewhere that in most mice the Z axis doesn't have near the resolution as the X and Y.   Since your board overcomes that obstacle it will work perfectly for an offroad cabinet I was planning on converting.

[Kremmit]

I got mine before Mark- Neener, Neener, Neener!

I only had so much time to play with it tonight, and I'll be out tomorrow night, so I may not have any updates for a couple days, but here's what I can report:

• It's pretty small- about 1"x3", although I haven't actually measured it.
• It works in Windows XP Pro just fine, no drivers or install hassle.
• It works with a Betson-Imperial trackball just fine.
• It works with an Oscar optic board just fine.
• The Z-axis works in Windows; right this second, my scroll whell is a DOT spinner. 
• It doesn't seem to mind if I hot-swap the axes; I've moved the spinner from the x-axis to the z-axis and back while the Opti-Wiz is plugged in, and had no issues- I don't know if that's covered under the warranty, though!
• There are two header pins each for +5v and ground, plus another ground pin with the button header.  I connected both +5v lines from the trackball to one pin on the Opti-Wiz, and ditto for the ground.  Worked fine.  The buttons also seem to be able to use the same ground connection as the axes, if you don't want to wire the one provided on the button header.

To Do:

• I haven't had a chance to try to get the Z-axis working with MAME.
• I still have a lot of other hardware to try to hook up.
• Play some games!

 

Stay tuned!

[Kremmit]

Adding to the list of known compatible optics:

Taito Arkanoid spinner (the optic board on these says Wico right on it, so I imagine any Wico spinner is probably fine.
Betson/Imperial trackball
Happ trackball
Atari Pole Position wheel
Atari Roadblasters wheel
Atari Blasteroids spinner

All of the above work fine with the Opti-Wiz, using their original optic cards. 

The Oscar optic cards work too.

[markrvp]

I can also confirm that the OptiWiz works perfectly with:

Betson Imperial Trackball
Happ Trackball
Oscar Optic Board (both in a spinner and in a 360 degree wheel)


Games tested with above hardware:

Golden Tee Golf (3D and 2K)
Centipede
Missile Command
Shuuz
World Class Bowling
Crystal Castles
Marble Madness
Super Sprint
Tempest
Major Havoc

I have the trackball hooked up to the X & Y axes.

[Timoe]

Does it mount to the bottom of your CP alright?  I cant tell from the picture how many screws hold it down.

[markrvp]

2 screws with standoffs.  As long as nothing is getting moved around or pulled, one screw would hold it or just set it inside your CP.

[markrvp]

A huge benefit I see on this encoder compared to a mouse hack is the USB-B connector.  It provides peace of mind that your soldered-on wires won't get pulled loose.  These pics show a comparison of the OptiWiz to one of Oscar's mousehacks.

[markrvp]

For size reference, here is the encoder sitting on top of a Happ 3" trackball

[Tiger-Heli]

Markrvp may be the perfect one to ask this - I have an off-the-wall question -

Kremmit said that the board is approximately 1"x3".  I am wondering if it would be possible to mount the board inside a 2-1/4" Happ T-ball (http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/565500xxe.htm) or 3" (http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/560100e.htm) or the Ultimarc 2-1/4 (http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html) trackball enclosure.  Dimensions on the site suggest it wouldn't work except for MAYBE the 3", but Ultimarc (and maybe Happ) have those slide-on covers and I am thinking it might fit in there.

My idea is to make something similar to http://www.cheeptech.com/cuhack.html, but with real arcade controls and without hacking an Atari 2600 trackball or fitting to a Radio Shack enclosure.  This way you could just buy a trackball and Opti-Wiz, modify the case, and have a plug and play solution for any games that wanted a trackball.

Thoughts???

A huge benefit I see on this encoder compared to a mouse hack is the USB-B connector.  It provides peace of mind that your soldered-on wires won't get pulled loose.

Agreed.  Another benefit is that USB A-B cables are readily available inexpensively in various lengths. 

[markrvp]

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't fit inside any of the production trackball cases, but you could easily velcro or hot glue it to the side or bottom.  In fact, one of my early ideas was that it could easily be connected to the bottom of a Happ trackball.  The total hight of the Happ 3" trackball case is 2-3/4" so your box wouldn't have to be very tall to still accommodate it.

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't fit inside any of the production trackball cases, but you could easily velcro or hot glue it to the side or bottom.

[RayB]

I hope some of the beta testers are going to test this thing out in true DOS mode?

[markrvp]

I can't help you there.

[ptpeter]

anyone have any idea when this is coming out?

[millercentral]

Hey Randy, if you do make a GGG spinner, any chance you'd match its size/mounting holes to the Oscar V2 spinner (says the guy who had metal panels pre-drilled for V2 spinners just as OSCAR closed up shop...)??

[KenToad]

Wow RandyT, what a New Year's gift.  I'm really excited about this one, even though the discussion is making me feel a bit dumb. 

I've never hacked a mouse per se, although I did make my own spinner interface by printing out an encoder wheel on a transparency and letting that spin through a cheapo mouse's analog detectors (whatever they're called). 

Here's the question:  What do I need to make this board work with two (or three?) homebuilt spinners?  Is that what those blank boxes on the board are for--attaching the actual analog detectors?  Obviously, more than one spinner would require several sets of the detectors with at least one mounted away from the Opti-Wiz.

Sorry if this question has already been answered and thanks in advance for any help.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

Wow RandyT, what a New Year's gift.

[RandyT]

Here's the question:  What do I need to make this board work with two (or three?) homebuilt spinners?  Is that what those blank boxes on the board are for--attaching the actual analog detectors?

Yes.  You can add optical switches to the board and attach the board to your spinner directly (the optical switches face the opposite side).  When doing this, the axis assigned to the onboard optical switches is selected by bridging the appropriate X, Y, or Z pads with a small drop of solder.

You can have a trackball and a spinner connected to the device, or up to 3 spinners.  You just need 4 wires, 2 optical switches and a current limiting resistor for each spinner you want to build and attach.  And as Tiger-Heli wrote, use a version of the software that supports the use of the Z-Axis (.84 and up ?)

While we're on the subject and hopefully as a basis for discussion with folks in the know ( Urebel? )...

Due to a Windows / MAME oddity, the Z-Axis requires a spinner device with a fine encoder wheel spoke pitch, probably at least 72 per revolution.  MAME does not properly implement the Z-axis from what I can surmise.  It does work well, but the sensitivity command is out of scale.  This means that for best results the sensitivity must be set at 1 to 2% when using the Z-axis.

There are a bunch of technical reasons for this, but the Opti-Wiz is not the problem.  Windows uses a WHEEL_DELTA system for reporting wheel events.  Instead of reporting a single "tick" when a mouse wheel (Z-Axis) event occurs, it reports 120 "ticks" (the arbitrarily set value by Microsoft for future expandability), whereas the X and Y axes report only 1.  If I'm not completely off base, MAME should be checking to see what the WHEEL_DELTA value is when using the Z-Axis and divide the values being sent by this value and then perform the sensitivity adjustments on the integer result.  It does not appear to be doing this. 

Hopefully someone can insert this code and submit it to the dev team to get the Z-Axis supported properly.  But the Z is still absolutely usable as a spinner (plus it's cool to use the spinner as a scroll wheel for those long list boxes )  It just has limited sensitivity adjustment in that you cannot currently make it less sensitive than the physical spoke pitch of your encoder wheel.

Oh, and to answer another question, these will be available for purchase just as soon as I get a doc sheet written up.  Kremmit and Markrvp did a great job getting info to me and things look to be working extremely well on all the mainstream hardware.

RandyT

[KenToad]

Yes. You can add optical switches to the board and attach the board to your spinner directly (the optical switches face the opposite side). When doing this, the axis assigned to the onboard optical switches is selected by bridging the appropriate X, Y, or Z pads with a small drop of solder.

You can have a trackball and a spinner connected to the device, or up to 3 spinners. You just need 4 wires, 2 optical switches and a current limiting resistor for each spinner you want to build and attach. And as Tiger-Heli wrote, use a version of the software that supports the use of the Z-Axis (.84 and up ?)

Okay, so the doodads that gauge the movement of the encoder are called optical switches?  Where would would be the best place to purchase optical switches?  Would it be best just to rip (desolder) them out of existing cheapo mice?

Or maybe, RandyT, you should just tease me with your forthcoming spinner.  If the price is right, I'm onboard for the whole package. 

Cheers and thanks,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

Okay, so the doodads that gauge the movement of the encoder are called optical switches?

[u_rebelscum]

While we're on the subject and hopefully as a basis for discussion with folks in the know ( Urebel? )...

Due to a Windows / MAME oddity... MAME does not properly implement the Z-axis from what I can surmise.  It does work well, but the sensitivity command is out of scale.  This means that for best results the sensitivity must be set at 1 to 2% when using the Z-axis.

There are a bunch of technical reasons for this, but the Opti-Wiz is not the problem.  Windows uses a WHEEL_DELTA system for reporting wheel events.  Instead of reporting a single "tick" when a mouse wheel (Z-Axis) event occurs, it reports 120 "ticks" (the arbitrarily set value by Microsoft for future expandability), whereas the X and Y axes report only 1.  If I'm not completely off base, MAME should be checking to see what the WHEEL_DELTA value is when using the Z-Axis and divide the values being sent by this value and then perform the sensitivity adjustments on the integer result.  It does not appear to be doing this. 

Hopefully someone can insert this code and submit it to the dev team to get the Z-Axis supported properly.

Heh, I was going to post a question on this Z axis "resolution" issue yesterday, but never found the info to backup my "facts" before I timed out and lost my post.    Good thing though, since I was wrong by a factor of ten (more on this later) and Randy addressed it without me looking like I was against the Opti-wiz.

IMO, the "best" fix would be a special "fine Z-axis" mouse driver.  Most drivers multiple the scroll number by 120; IE: one detent tick on the scroll wheel is sent as a single tick over USB which the driver multiples by 120 to work with windows WHEEL_DELTA like Randy said. 
However the future is already here; there are a few drivers that don't multiple by 120.  MS IntelliPoint  for the tilt wheels look to multiple by 30 (don't own one, but I know I like a no detents feel*).  One of my two scroll ball mice can set the multiplier to 10, 20, or 30 in it's installed driver; can't remember OTTOMH which one: targus's dual mode mouse, or that compaq scroll ball mouse sometimes on sale for $4.  (This 10-30 multiplier was what I yesterday thought was the standard multiplier instead of the correct 120.)

The only difference between the normal mouse driver and the special fine Z axis driver would be that the driver doesn't multiple by 120; it would be really cool to have it variable from 1 to 120.  But I don't know how to write drivers, soo....

[edit] I don't know USB's info descriptor (<-- is that the right name?), but can you set the Z axis wheel_delta on this?  I doubt it, but thought I'd toss it out there.


Until then, mame could divide the Z axis by 120 (or 30 for IntelliPoint  mice, or whatever).
Minuses:

• the possibility of backspin might raise it's ugly head (data is being pasted 7 bits (120, or 111 1000) bigger then it needs to be),
• IntelliPoint  mice (and other future mice) would have "finer resolution" than Opti-wiz (not physically, but software wise).

Pluses

• Any mouse could be hacked,
• no driver changes needed,
• might be more compatible with windows scrolling (see below)

[shrug]

  But the Z is still absolutely usable as a spinner (plus it's cool to use the spinner as a scroll wheel for those long list boxes )

How well does it scroll in windows?  If it's well scaled, that's one reason the changes should be in mame, not the in the driver (noted as the last plus in why to change mame).


*Aside, I don't like the hard detents on most mice now a days.  I had a "4d scroll mouse" a looong time ago with two smooth scroll wheels, but it's not made any more.   And the only reason I sometimes use the two scroll ball mice I have is for the no detent feel; they aren't the highest quality mice.  (I originally bought the scroll balls for mame testing.)  Hopefully MS gets copied and more manufactures make smooth scrolls.  Looks like MS is also adding the horizontal scroll to the OS Vista, 7 years after I got the 4d scroll mouse with horizontal scroll.

[markrvp]

How well does it scroll in windows?  If it's well scaled, that's one reason the changes should be in mame, not the in the driver (noted as the last plus in why to change mame).

It works great.

[Kremmit]

I'll agree with everything above.  The spinner scrolls great in Firefox and Word, and plays great in Tempest- you just have to set the analog sensetivity way down compared to the x & y axis.  I'm in favor of a driver and/or MAME level fix, at least until Microsoft fixes it at their end.  Maybe it'll be in the next version of Analog+ 

Before somebody asks, using the Windows "# of lines" setting for the scroll wheel only adjusts in Windows apps, it has zero effect on gameplay in MAME. 

[u_rebelscum]

I'll agree with everything above.  The spinner scrolls great in Firefox and Word, and plays great in Tempest- you just have to set the analog sensetivity way down compared to the x & y axis.  I'm in favor of a driver and/or MAME level fix, at least until Microsoft fixes it at their end.  Maybe it'll be in the next version of Analog+ 

How about I post the change here?   It's a one liner if we keep it simple:

Code: [Select]

// return the latest mouse info
if (joyindex == 0)
return mouse_state[joynum].lX * 512;
if (joyindex == 1)
return mouse_state[joynum].lY * 512;
if (joyindex == 2)
return mouse_state[joynum].lZ * 4; // windows default Z to be 120 times bigger than X & Y; 512 / 120 = 4.26667
We're just changing 512 on the last line to 4, on line 1830 in src/windows/input.c file.  With this change, mame's sensitivity would need to be set a little higher than if the X or Y axes were used.  I suggest you beta testers try if this value of 4 works well (it could also be changed to 5, 4.2 (good to cast the solution to int32 JIC), 4.3, ect).

Before somebody asks, using the Windows "# of lines" setting for the scroll wheel only adjusts in Windows apps, it has zero effect on gameplay in MAME. 

Good to know, and what it should be according to MS's documentation.   However, some drivers changes to the mouse speed does effect mame, which according to MS's docs shouldn't happen.  Makes me wonder about the scroll ball settings I mentioned in my last post.

[Kremmit]

Oh, crap.  You done gone and lobbed that ball right back into my court, dint'cha? 

I've never compiled before.  I'm good with controllers, wiring & encoders, but I'm MAME32 when it comes to software. 

Any software geeks want to do some compiling?

[markrvp]

Oh, crap.

[markrvp]

Okay, I am attempting to compile a version of MAME with that change.  I'll let you know if it worked tonight.

[markrvp]

Thank you to JoyMonkey, SirPoonga, and Headkaze for helping me compile a custom version of MAME .103 with u_rebelscum's Z axis change.  JoyMonkey compiled a version for me and I was also able to successfully compile my own (FINALLY).

I can report that the Z axis now works great at high sensitivity settings with NO BACKSPIN in MAME.  For Supersprint a setting of about 70% to 80% works great on the Z axis.  On Tempest, with an Oscar Controls Push/Pull spinner it needed a sensitivity of 120% to really fly.  I like to spin the knob between levels and watch the little yellow guy go flying around the next pattern.

I give the Optiwiz my full endorsement and highly recommend it to anyone who wants to buy one.

Would somebody close to the MAME team please suggest the Z axis change for future versions?

[Kremmit]

Super dope.  I just got the fixed version, but can't test as my MAME computer is down.  I'm online with an old pentium right now.   

Does the sensetivity now match the other axes, or do you find you need slightly different settings still?  It'd be nice if all three match exactly, for the 3p driving games.

[markrvp]

The sensitivity of the Z axis needs to be slightly higher.  Probably by adjusting the value in the MAME source you could get them all exact.

[u_rebelscum]

The sensitivity of the Z axis needs to be slightly higher.  Probably by adjusting the value in the MAME source you could get them all exact.

We're just changing 512 on the last line to 4, on line 1830 in src/windows/input.c file.  With this change, mame's sensitivity would need to be set a little higher than if the X or Y axes were used.  I suggest you beta testers try if this value of 4 works well (it could also be changed to 5, 4.2 (good to cast the solution to int32 JIC), 4.3, ect).

512 / 120 = 4.267, so if you type cast the result back to integer, you could use 4.26666666666666666667 for "perfect swapability" X, Y, & Z axes.  However:

I tried playing with my normal scroll wheels (camel try works okay), and it did NOT like the smaller setting.  The original value 512 down to 256 were reasonable, but four was showing probably the opposite problem mark and kermmit were having with real spinners.

Sooooo, I think there should be a setting somewhere (for each mouse, preferably ) to change between "scroll wheel" & "real spinner", or to set the multipler anywhere between 512 down to 4.  The last one might become a replacement of mame's current sentivitiy.  Or the current setting could increase the range from current 1-256(%) to 0.1-1600(%), or change the 512 mulitpler, for examples. 

Personally I'd prefer a per PC device sensitivity setting for all mice, all mouse axes, all joysticks, and all joystick axes, not a per game input settings as current mame, but that would involve some real changes.

[JoyMonkey]

Any idea when I can buy one of these?

I've a feeling the mouse-hack I just found under a pile of cables/junk isn't going to be so reliable any more 

Edit: Never mind, I just noticed the 'Date Expected 1/26/2006' on GroovyGameGear. So I guess I'll have to wait a few hours 

[RandyT]

The Opti-Wiz

[romperwomb]

Yes!

Ok, SirP, you got your wish. 

I just wired up the molex 6-pin female to 10-pin female header wire harness.  Plugged it in and pure TB satisfaction (after I completely rebuilt the WICO trackball some dirtbag misrepresented on Ebay....Grrrrrrr).

So we will be offering cables as well.  They are time consuming to make, had to buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff to gear up,  yadda, yadda, $12.95 .

BTW, if anyone was ever wondering if the trackball boosters work on a WICO, they do

RandyT

Whuddaboutdeez?  When will these cables become available?

Thanks

[whammoed]

The Opti-Wiz

[RandyT]

Sweet, I went ahead and placed an order for one to play with but I didn't see a place to specify the USB device number.  Will this option be available?  My next project has two trackballs and I don't want their order flipping.

Device numbers 1-4 can now be selected at the store.

When will these cables become available?

Later today.

Thanks,
RandyT

[whammoed]

Sweet, I went ahead and placed an order for one to play with but I didn't see a place to specify the USB device number.  Will this option be available?  My next project has two trackballs and I don't want their order flipping.

Device numbers 1-4 can now be selected at the store.

When will these cables become available?

Later today.

Thanks,
RandyT

Nice!

[RandyT]

Took a little longer than expected, but the Opti-Wiz

[whammoed]

I recieved my opti-wiz.  Looks very nice, high quality.  Came very well packaged.

Thanks RandyT! 

Made up a little test rig today and thought I'd share:
Not a must have for me, but at the low opti-wiz price I can afford it. 
I will definitely be using these on my next project.  Perfect implementation of a mouse interface.

[wakerlet]

Randy:  Got both Opti-Wiz's this week.  They do look quite slick.

So in terms of the molex connector what color wires are Xa/Xb and Ya/Yb for the colors defined on the first page of this post?  I've got Purple, Blue, Green and Yellow to choose from.

Thanks,
Todd

[Kremmit]

I recieved my opti-wiz.  Looks very nice, high quality.  Came very well packaged.

Thanks RandyT! 

Made up a little test rig today and thought I'd share:
Not a must have for me, but at the low opti-wiz price I can afford it. 
I will definitely be using these on my next project.  Perfect implementation of a mouse interface.

Wow, that looks exactly like the setup I was using!  Big long board, Opti-Wiz at one end, and screw terminals.  My screw terminals were black, though. 

[sWampy]

I got one of these this week cause my mini-pac had horrible back spin problems with my betson trackball.   With this, and the upgraded encoder wheels it's seems to the be best trackball setup i've ever seen for mame.   

My oscar spinner has a small backspin problem with the mini-pac.  I guess hooking it up to the z-axis would solve this, but I'm just a little worried about the z-axis spinner support in other applications.   Anyone have an opinion on if the benefits of hooking it up to the opti-wiz would outweigh the negatives.

[Kremmit]

I got one of these this week cause my mini-pac had horrible back spin problems with my betson trackball.   With this, and the upgraded encoder wheels it's seems to the be best trackball setup i've ever seen for mame.   

My oscar spinner has a small backspin problem with the mini-pac.  I guess hooking it up to the z-axis would solve this, but I'm just a little worried about the z-axis spinner support in other applications.   Anyone have an opinion on if the benefits of hooking it up to the opti-wiz would outweigh the negatives.

Those upgraded encoder wheels are probably making most of the difference on your trackball.  It sure would be interesting to move your spinner from the MiniPac to the OptiWiz and see if/how performance differs between them.  You would want to hook it to the same axis on both to make it a fair test.

As for using the Z-axis, I don't know that that would improve backspin issues over using the X or Y axis.  The difference between the axes is build into the way Windows handles the data, not the OptiWiz.  The main reason to use the Z-axis is to separate the spinner from the trackball, not to improve performance.

[sWampy]

I got one of these this week cause my mini-pac had horrible back spin problems with my betson trackball.   With this, and the upgraded encoder wheels it's seems to the be best trackball setup i've ever seen for mame.   

My oscar spinner has a small backspin problem with the mini-pac.  I guess hooking it up to the z-axis would solve this, but I'm just a little worried about the z-axis spinner support in other applications.   Anyone have an opinion on if the benefits of hooking it up to the opti-wiz would outweigh the negatives.

Those upgraded encoder wheels are probably making most of the difference on your trackball.  It sure would be interesting to move your spinner from the MiniPac to the OptiWiz and see if/how performance differs between them.  You would want to hook it to the same axis on both to make it a fair test.

As for using the Z-axis, I don't know that that would improve backspin issues over using the X or Y axis.  The difference between the axes is build into the way Windows handles the data, not the OptiWiz.  The main reason to use the Z-axis is to separate the spinner from the trackball, not to improve performance.

With just the new encoders, the backspin  was just as bad as the stock encoders, so I really think the new interface made made a huge difference there. 

I really just can't deside if having no backspin on the spinner would be worth the hastle of having to reconfigure all spinner games to use the z-axis and it's scale, and not being able to use the spinner in non-mame games.   I guess I could put a switch to switch between the 2 interfaces.   I'd move it in a heart beat if there was an easy way in software to move it between x and z on the fly.  Then I could just have my frontend move it to x axis when launching a non mame emulator.

[markrvp]

Until this is a standard feature in MAME, I would just use two OptiWiz's.  I know that's $15 more dollars, but it would sure save a lot of configuring.