Arcade stick for PC gaming

[f00ge]

Hello and merry xmas to everyone here.

I came across your site by doing a Google search for "custom arcade joysticks".
You see, I am not your usual hardcore arcade enthusiast that visits your site to build arcade systems to use for MAME etc.

I play two games - and two games only: Unreal Tournament & Unreal Tournament 2004. Both of these are for the PC.
For those of you who do not know the UT series, it's a game very similar to Quake/Doom etc.
I have been playing the UT series ever since spring 2000. I play it 2-6 hours every day (yes, I have no life).
So, as you can imagine, playing this game is quite important to me.

There are many differences between the UT series and other first-person shooters like Quake/CS/CoD which I will not go into. However, there is one vital difference, a difference that is actually the reason why I am writing this forum post: dodging.
In most FPS games, you simply have move forward, move backward, strafe left, strafe right - and, of course, jump and crouch. But UT has dodging, which is something like a hybrid between jumping and strafing. What you do is double tab the strafe key quickly to get a dodge. This double tab action is performed roughly 2 times per second.

Now, imagine what double pressing your keys two times each second for 5 hours a day for nearly six years does to your finger(s).  Bingo!: arthritis  hehe. 
Oddly, some people I have played this game with for all these years, seem totally unaffected by this. I guess I must have weak'ish girlie joints. 
At this point, most people just tell me to quit UT and find another game to play that is less hard on the fingers - or even tell me to quit gaming all together. That's good advice, I agree. However, I have been suffering from a vertigo condition, caused by work related stuff, for 9 years now. I do not go out, I sit/lay at home all day, hoping that this condition will vanish some day. There is no cure (yet).  Meanwhile, the only thing that keeps me sane is competitive gaming, namely UT. I have many online friends in this game. I'm in what are are called clans (teams).  I have tried so many other games to replace UT. But UT is the one and only game I don't get sick of after just a few hours. Trust me, I have tried many, many games. UT really is my life (as sad as it sounds, but it really is). Watching TV all day is not my thing either. And reading is hard for me due to the vertigo.
UT is my life.

(Sorry for boring you with my life story here, but I really wanted you all to understand why I'm searching for what I'm searching. As many of my previous attempts (posting other places) have ended in people telling me to stop gaming, play other stuff etc etc)

So, basically, what I am looking for is something to replace four of the keys on my keyboard: move forward, move backward, strafe left & strafe right.

In the past, I have tried devices like the X-Arcade (http://www.xgaming.com/solo.shtml), various 'fighter' sticks made for Xbox/PSX and even more joysticks for the PC.

The reason why I couldn't use the PC joysticks is simply because these days all they seem to make are those giant flight-sim sticks with a zillion buttons and throttlers on it.
As you can imagine, slamming one of those huge and heavy sticks back and forth within 0.25 seconds (that's how long you have to make the double tab in to get the dodge) was not only quite a challenge, but also requires Hulk-like arms to do for more than 5 minutes.

I think the only PC joystick that would have kinda worked would have been this one: http://www.quickshot.com/game_controllers/war.html
This looks exactly like the ones I had for my Commodore64 and Amiga.
Back then, we called those types sticks 'digitals' and the other kind that did not 'click' for each direction; ie. you could move slowly, then fast, by pressing it even more on the axis - we called those 'analogs'. I think, today analogs and digitals have a totally different meaning.
When I say digital, I mean there was a connector/switch that went 'click' as soon as the axis was activated - and you couldn't press the stick any further. It was simply just "on/off" in that direction.

Anyway, I was unsuccessful in obtaining any such joystick for the PC. And even if I had been successful, I reckon the stick would have expired within a few days. I recall butchering many Quickshot sticks whilst playing Winter/Summer games on my good, old C64. I doubt UT would be any kinder to it. 

As mentioned, I have tried the X-Arcade, which really was the closest thing I ever came to replacing my keyboard.
Unfortunately, the stick of the X-Arcade was too stiff. I then tried to remove the spring from the stick, which helped. And bend those metal (I have no clue what they are called) thingies to make it more sensitive.
- If you want to know what I mean exactly, look @ http://www.xgaming.com/service/open.shtml
The 'metal thingies' are the little metal flaps that slide onto the connectors/switches that trigger the axis/button. In this schematic, look bottom right, just above the 4 screws.
Those can be bent in order to make the stick more sensitive. But as I now had removed the spring, there remained no more control, to be honest.
In order to do the dodge in UT, you have to hit the axis(strafe key) once, then move to neutral position and then hit/trigger the axis again.
So I really can't use a stick that is totally limp. But on the other hand, it needs to be as near to limp as possible. Because if the spring makes the stick too rigid, it hurts my hand and I end up with arthritis in my hand this time!

Also, this X-Arcade stick was too big. Should be smaller (for my use).
It was too stiff - and when the spring was removed, totally limp, which rendered it useless.
I even tried replacing the original spring with some other (less strong) spings I found. But it never worked as planned.

The ideal stick:
Remember Street Fighter at the Arcade? The first one, featuring one stick and six buttons for each player. That would be the absolute best stick for me to use with UT on the PC.
Come to think of it, nearly all arcade machines at that point (mid/late 1980s) had those kind of sticks, I think. (I just played Street Fighter exclusively  )

This stick was small, it was 'digital', it had a very narrow 'dead zone' (you only had to move the stick a fraction on an inch to activate the axis) and was very smooth/easy to push to it's axis. You virtually did not have to apply any force in order to make your street fighter move.

You guys know what kind of stick I'm talking about?
I don't know your ages here, but I reckon many of you are about my age (30'ish), in which case you might recall those sticks many arcades uses in those days for games like Street Fighter.
I live in Denmark, Europe, by the way. Maybe other arcade machines/sticks were used in the US and Japan?
(I'm hoping some Euro people my age are reading this anyway  )


So can anyone tell me if getting a stick/arcade arrangement with the above mentioned features is possible? And possible to get to work with the PC? All it needs to do is to emulate 4 keyboard keys.

Also, it has to be able to handle 8 positions (what they call 8-way?). Because in UT, you are always moving forward/backward whilst doing the dodging/strafing. I have to be able to run forwards while strafing at the same time.

Hoping for some good input from you guys.
Getting a stick like this to replace my keyboard would really, really improve my quality of life. (not to mention the arthritis  )

Oh, and thanks for reading my whole 'novelle' here. 

[Kremmit]

You've actually got the difference between analog and digital just about right.  A digital stick only has a simple switch for the directions, and only has to be pushed a little way to activate it.  An analog stick twists a potentiometer (volume knob) inside the stick base, and moves much further.  Street Fighter did indeed use a digital stick.

If you've still got your X-Arcade, you can replace the actual joystick with one that has a feel closer to what you want.  It sounds like you want a joystick with a short "throw"- meaning you don't have to move it very far to actuate the switches.  You also want a crisp, quick return-to-center, but without requiring a lot of force to move it in the first place.  Does that sound about right?  If so, here's some reccomendations:

You would probably like the feel of the Mag Stik or the Euro Stik on this page:
Ultimarc Joysticks

Or any of the sticks on this page (except the 49-way- it's more like an analog):
Groovy Game Gear Joysticks  (Would the thumb button on the Prodigy Topfire be useful to you?)

Maybe these- I've never used them, but Street Fighter players swear by them:
Himura Joysticks

You might want to start here, though:
http://www.retroblast.com/hardware.html

There are reviews here of lots and lots of different joysticks, with plenty of description about how they feel.

edit- I just noticed you said you were living in Europe during the Street Fighter days.  Most European machines used Suzo joysticks at that time, I believe.  The Euro Stik on the Ultimarc page, and (I think) all of the sticks on the Groovy Game Gear page (except that darn 49-way) are Suzo.

[Level42]

I would lean to advise you this:

http://www.afterhours.co.uk/speedlink-competition-p-420.html

Although the quality is nowehere near that of the original Suzo Competition Pro's from the 80's, this would do the job for you I guess.

If possible for you, I'd replace the microswitches with some original Cherry's, and you have a very decent stick that you can connect to your PC right away and fullfills your needs of being able to go forward and back and strafe right and left.

Otherwise, from what you describe, get a "regular" Suzo joystick and put it in your X-arcade. That would be the best option quality wise I guess. And yes, the Suzo's have a very short throw and travel (so little movement needed to go from either side to the other). That's why I love them as well.

[markrvp]

f00ge:

Welcome to Arcade Control building.

[f00ge]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Looks like I found the best place on the Net for arcade gaming, indeed.
You guys really seem to know your stuff. 

@ Kremmit:

Yes, you are exactly right.
- Short throw
- Minimum force application required
- Small stick
- Super sensitive

That's what I'm looking for.


I'll look into the sticks you lads have recommended.
Can you reccommend any internet shops based in the EU?

Will building in any of those sticks go well mith my X-Arcade? Or am I better off building from scratch? Will the existing microswitches (those things that go click inside of the X-Arcade when the base of the stick hits them) be any different to others I might buy to use in either the X-Arcade or my own custom made box? Maybe there are some microswitches that are softer/require less strength to be activated than those that are present in the standard X-Arcade?

Ideally, bulding a little box with the right stick and maybe 4-5 buttons would be perfect for me.
I find the X-Arcade to be too tall. Although I can live with it, I'd like it to be somewhat shorter. Also, the buttons could be closer to the stick. (as I will be using my other hand on the mouse, thus will have to press the arcade buttons with the same hand as I'm using the stick with).

Building your own arcade box with stick, buttons etc, can you still emulate keyboard keys, like the X-Arcade is capable of?
'Cause if that is the case, I should really try to build my own.

I'm not very technical, yet not retarded either. Would you think I'm capable of making my own arcade setup? (that will work with the PC/emulate keystrokes)

Thanks for the quick replies, btw. \o/

[Kremmit]

Now, if you do in fact use a joystick, then one to consider is an original Wico 8-way leafswitch joystick.  This is the same joystick that was in Robotron and probably Street Fighter II.

I prefer a Wico leaf myself, but I don't think it's what the OP is looking for at all.  It has a very long throw.  It was also definately not in Street Fighter II, unless you played on a machine that already had them and then was converted to SFII.  Real SFII machines in North America had Happ sticks in them.  Happ sticks tend to have a pretty long throw as well, and are/were less common in Europe, which is why I suspect that the machines he encountered over there were of the Suzo variety.  Suzo are/were very common in Europe, and have the short throw he described.

Can you reccommend any internet shops based in the EU?

Ultimarc is in the UK.

Will building in any of those sticks go well mith my X-Arcade?

Any of them will work with you X-Arcade, electrically speaking.  Just wire up the microswitches from the new stick to the same wires the old ones were hooked to.  Practically speaking, I think they all have a different footprint to the ones in your X-Arcade, so you'd have to drill some new holes at least.

Or am I better off building from scratch? Will the existing microswitches (those things that go click inside of the X-Arcade when the base of the stick hits them) be any different to others I might buy to use in either the X-Arcade or my own custom made box? Maybe there are some microswitches that are softer/require less strength to be activated than those that are present in the standard X-Arcade?

a) we know what microswitches are.   
b)  Cherry brand microswitches are generally considered to be superior to the ones that ship on X-Arcade sticks.  Softer and quieter.
c)  If you choose to build from scratch, you can address the height and button spacing issues you mentioned.  You can definately make it emulate a keyboard, just like the X-Arcade.  In fact, you can use the guts of your X-Arcade to do it.  Or, if you prefer to keep the X-Arcade intact (maybe sell it?), the I-Pac sold on the Ultimarc page, or the KeyWiz sold on the GroovyGameGear page are the most popular products to do the job. 

I'm not very technical, yet not retarded either. Would you think I'm capable of making my own arcade setup?

Lots and lots of non-retarded people (and a few I'm not so sure about  ) have managed to do it.  If you haven't yet, I strongly reccomend you spend some serious time reading the main site that goes with these message forums- http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade.htm.  There's some outdated info there, but it'll educate you in what you need to know to do the job.

Have fun!

[f00ge]

I prefer a Wico leaf myself, but I don't think it's what the OP is looking for at all.  It has a very long throw.

Yep, I definately am looking for the shortest throw possible.

Suzo are/were very common in Europe, and have the short throw he described.

Sound about right.
The "Mag-Stick Plus" is this a Suzo stick?

a) we know what microswitches are.   

hehe. I wasn't hinting that you didn't know what they were. I was just making sure I was talking about the same thing, as I wasn't sure they were called that.

b)  Cherry brand microswitches are generally considered to be superior to the ones that ship on X-Arcade sticks.  Softer and quieter.

Sound like what I'm looking for. Where can I get them? Ultimarc?

c)  If you choose to build from scratch, you can address the height and button spacing issues you mentioned.  You can definately make it emulate a keyboard, just like the X-Arcade.  In fact, you can use the guts of your X-Arcade to do it.  Or, if you prefer to keep the X-Arcade intact (maybe sell it?), the I-Pac sold on the Ultimarc page, or the KeyWiz sold on the GroovyGameGear page are the most popular products to do the job. 

So in fact, you can emulate any key with any button - as long as you wire it to the given key? That's sweet. I think the X-Arcade board will do fine, though. I only need about 8 keys total.

Lots and lots of non-retarded people (and a few I'm not so sure about  ) have managed to do it.  If you haven't yet, I strongly reccomend you spend some serious time reading the main site that goes with these message forums- http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade.htm.  There's some outdated info there, but it'll educate you in what you need to know to do the job.

Nice one.
Right now, I'm thinking of building it directly into my table. (to minimize height as much as possible.

I've looked at this Mag-Stick Plus: http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html
Anyone know this one?
Again, I'm looking for shortest throw possible and minimum force required to move it.

[Kremmit]

The Mag-Stik is not a Suzo product.  It's relatively new on the market, I haven't heard how stiff it is yet. 

You might want to look at:
http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/joysticks/Joystick%20Roundup.pdf

Of the sticks listed, the GroovyGameGear OmniStik has the shorteset throw to actuate, an the shortest maximum throw as well.  I think maximum throw is important for you, as you want the stick to stop as soon as it's actuated, so you can let it snap back and then do it again. 

On the other hand, the softest stick listed is the Ultimarc J-Stik, which also has a pretty short throw to actuate.  But, the maximum throw is pretty big.  You could restrict your maximum throw by mounting the stick through a small hole, so that the handle hits the edges of the hole after 6 degrees of travel.

The best compromise might be the T-Stik with the "light action microswitch kit".  Unfortunately, Ultimarc no longer sells the T-Stik, having replaced it with the new Mag Stik.  User "Ponyboy" sells T-Stik joysticks in the Buy/Sell/Trade section of this message board.  I think the light action kit was basically just a set of Cherry microswitches, but I could be wrong- correction/confirmation, anyone?

You could also try replacing the Omni-Stik's switches, if you get one and find it to be too stiff.

[Level42]

The Omistick ARE Suzo sticks !

If you decide for the Suzo, I have 1 or two spares here which are overcomplete, and I'm from Holland so "around the corner" for you. I can also get anything from Suzo like buttons, Cherry switches etc. etc. Not trying to make a living out of it, just helping fellow BYOACers.

I really think the Suzo's would be your weapon of choice. However, if you really want the absolute minimum of resistance, try to look up the inductive Suzo joysticks. I have two here (for my personal use ), and they are perfect if you don't want clicky pressure point, and don't want leafs either.

However, production has been cancelled and last time I checked with Suzo they only still had 1 in stock...however they are sometimes offered at Ebay for very good prices....

Read this for all info, for me this is the most perfect stick ever:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=42066.0

[f00ge]

All right, looks like I will have to buy a couple of sticks and those Cherry microswitches.
Just to see which are best for me.

@ Level42, I'll pm you. Let's talk business

[SithMaster]

f00ge when you say unreal tournament do you mean goty?  your idea seems to be way better than a zboard and i approve though have you considered buttons for messages?

[f00ge]

f00ge when you say unreal tournament do you mean goty?  your idea seems to be way better than a zboard and i approve though have you considered buttons for messages?

Well, GOTY is basically just standard UT + the bonus packs. So we are talking about the same game, yes.

Buttons: Yes, thinking of placing some very closely to the stick - so I can use them with the same hand as I use for the stick.

[ahofle]

I know exactly what you mean about the dodging in UT  being hard on the fingers (although I don't play nearly as much as you apparently  ).  I had considered trying a joystick solution as well, but I couldn't come up with a design that would not sacrifice all the additional keys I would be losing (weapon switching, jumping, entering vehicles, etc).  That, and I've been using the keyboard for FPS games since Doom came out hehe.  Let us know what you come up with.

[f00ge]

I know exactly what you mean about the dodging in UT  being hard on the fingers (although I don't play nearly as much as you apparently  ).  I had considered trying a joystick solution as well, but I couldn't come up with a design that would not sacrifice all the additional keys I would be losing (weapon switching, jumping, entering vehicles, etc).  That, and I've been using the keyboard for FPS games since Doom came out hehe.  Let us know what you come up with.

There are some solutions for the lack of keys.

- Build an arcade controller, and add some buttons close to your stick
- Get a mouse with lots of buttons
- Get some foot pedals. Or even a dance mat, so you can switch weapons with your feet.
- Use "pipedswitchweapon" (if UT2004) and "Switchweapon 10 | Switchweapon 9" etc (if UT99). This will allow you to have several weapons on one key.

If you have a mouse with right mouse, left mouse, mousewheel, clickable mousewheel and two thumb buttons, you really have enough for the 'normal' stuff, in my opinion. Fatal1ty is coming out with a small'ish FPS mouse with loads of buttons January 15th. Keep your eye on that, if you're looking for a new mouse with lots of buttons.

If you use text message binds as well, then you might run out of buttons.

There is even some macro software (can't recall it's name now) that allows you to say/shout "Flak cannon" into your mic, and it switches to the flak in UT.
I have tried this - and it does work. But when you're on TeamSpeak/Ventrilo with your team mates, it can get quite confusing for your team mates that you're constanly shouting weird commands at them  that have nothing to do with the team.

Of course, you could just go for the easiest solution of them all: Play Instagib! 
There you only need your mouse and one stick. Even jumping is not needed in UT99 instagib.

-edit-
I think that macro software is called "Voice Commander". Try Googling it.

[f00ge]

Got one more question for the experts:

Whilst browsing for arcade joysticks, I've come across these "trackballs" like this one: http://www.x-arcade.com/trackball.shtml

I have never tried/seen one of these in real life. But am wondering, if such a thing could be used for a game like UT. (player movement)

Do these trackball work in the same manner as sticks? Ie. as soon as you move it one direction slightly, the microswitch is triggered. Or is it 'analog', so that it depends on how much you move it?

Anyone able to elaborate on these trackballs?

Thanks,

[Kremmit]

Think of a trackball as a ball moused turned upside down. (and a very big ball!)  You roll the ball, the mouse pointer moves.  Movement is not digital, your player will move as fast and as far as you roll the ball.

It's what an UT3K arcade machine would have, if there were such a thing.

[D5A1AC]

I was obsessed with UT GOTY for about 3 years. I still think it's a great game.

Have you ever considered setting your fwd/back & strafe controls to "IKJL" and using a macro program to set the semicolon button to two L presses as well as H to two J presses? this way you don't have to double tap, although you do have to lift up your entire finger  An extra advantage of this solution is that it involves no money.

[f00ge]

Have you ever considered setting your fwd/back & strafe controls to "IKJL" and using a macro program to set the semicolon button to two L presses as well as H to two J presses? this way you don't have to double tap, although you do have to lift up your entire finger  An extra advantage of this solution is that it involves no money.

Yes, I did try that.
Unfortunately, the time it takes to move your finger to another key to do the dodge really takes up way too much time. I got owned severely when I tried that setup. 

[f00ge]

Think of a trackball as a ball moused turned upside down. (and a very big ball!)  You roll the ball, the mouse pointer moves.  Movement is not digital, your player will move as fast and as far as you roll the ball.

It's what an UT3K arcade machine would have, if there were such a thing.

Okay. A trackball-like things could have been useful, if it worked 'digital' though.

Btw, can anyone tell me what a spinner is and how it works?

[ahofle]

It works exactly like a mouse/trackball, but with only one axis.