ACT LABS taking Pre-Orders for TV Gun!

[BASSOFeeSH]

I also emailed them asking for at the very least an S-Video model.

Their reply was that they'd take it into consideration. Period.

Not that I expected more.  I'll still probably get one.

[Sasquatch!]

First off you guys shouldn't be so hard on act labs...
Secondly, to contradict my own self, you shouldn't be so easy on act-labs either.

I agree with both of these points.  I'm still not going to buy one (or pre-order one) though, unless they get some of the issues hammered out - the biggest one being S-Video input for the TV.

I agree that it's a good thing to support them overall by buying the current gun, but think about it: if everybody buys one, what incentive do they have to ever fix it?  NONE.

I completely agree with Xiaou2.  The current gun offering is $40.  I'd gladly pay twice that to get a gun that was actually made well and did what I (or we) want it to.

I'm going to send them a friendly email telling them that if they make a slightly better-quality gun, and most importantly get the gun to support S-Video, they'll have people like us lining up to pay for them.

[Sasquatch!]

Dear Act-Labs,

First off, I'd like to say a big "Thanks!" to Act-Labs for even offering a TV gun as a possibility!  I'm part of the MAME arcade cabinet building community, and this is something that we've really been looking forward to!

That said, I'm afraid that I won't be pre-ordering one of these guns for a couple of very big reasons.  First off, the fact that it will require me to have a composite connection running to the TV is simply unacceptable to myself and to most of us in the gaming community.  As much as I would love to have a TV light gun, I simply cannot justify having to downgrade my connection from S-Video to composite: the loss of quality is just far too great.  Also, having two-player capability is simply a MUST for this kind of product, since practically every arcade game that has guns is two-player.  I'm sure that additional R&D costs that would be incurred with such a design, but you'd obviously be selling guns in batches of two instead of one, which would be a good thing for everyone!

I do realize that you need to have a minimum pre-order in order to justify the expense of producing these guns, but please believe me when I say that the huge majority of people that I know would be willing to pay "quality prices" for a quality product.  I would just hate to see Act-Labs interpreting fewer people taking you up on your offer of a $39.99 gun which doesn't meet most people's requirements as a sign that nobody is interested in having a TV light gun.  I think that a higher-quality and feature-rich light gun would be something that would sell very well, even at twice the price that you're asking.  I guess the bottom line to what I'm saying is that I would gladly spend more money on something that does what I want, but I don't see myself spending ANY money on something that DOESN'T work the way that I need it to...and I don't believe that I'm alone in thinking this way.

Thanks for taking the time to read this!  Also, thanks for listening to us - the gaming consumers.  It really does mean a lot to us.

Sincerely,

-John Pinner
webmaster - www.arcadeparadise.org

[Howard_Casto]

Great email, but there is one problem with it.  You are not going to get a 2 player gun at this point period.  To make the gun 2 player it would have to be completely re-built from the ground up, which considering their poor sales of the svga guns they won't do (yet).  However svideo support would be realitively cheap and easy to modify the current gun with, so we might convince them to do that.  

But if you want a 2 player gun you will almost HAVE to buy a 1 player gun so that they can justify the development costs.  

And for some of you that are saying "but if everyone buys the crappy gun then what insentive will they have to make another model?"  Well that is exactly how marketing works.  Microsoft's sidewinder series is the most popular pc game controller of all time and a lot of people have them.  Yet, they still manage to make a new stick each year.  Why?  Because they made money off of the first one, so they can afford to make a new controller with improvements rather than to continue to sell the old one.  M$ will continue to make sidewinders until the sales drop so much that it's no longer cost effective to do so.  

Why?  Because good sales of a similar product from a previous quarter "proves" a market  is good and reduces the perception of risk, and thus  convinces companys and investors to continue the line.  It makes absolutely no sense at the local level but makes perfect sense on a larger scale.  It's a hard concept to grasp but trust me, it holds true.  

I'm not saying to buy something you don't want, I'm just saying you are going to have to compromise on some things, at this point, at least.  Isn't 1 player better than no player?  Especially when the gun only costs 40 bucks.

[Jakobud]

Okay.....here's an analogy:

I develop PS2 games for a living.  I work for one of the bigger PS2 developer's and we buy a lot of different types of 3d Software for modeling, animation, mocap etc...we have a lot of money so we can afford to buy MANY licenses of certain software for certain companies.  For a few companies we have more licenses than any other company in the world.

Now, these programs are not ALL perfect.  There is never one end-all solution to everything with these programs.  So we make due with what we have and we are grateful.  BUT because we buy so many licenses and spend so much money on them...the developers listen to us more than anyone else...We are in production and when we use their programs we see things that they need to add/change to their software.  The developers are NOT in a production environment and they would have never thought to add some of the requests we ask for simply for that reason.  BUT they do listen to us and add in features BECAUSE we spend the big bucks on their software.

Now if you have read this whole message I think you know where I am heading...it's very difficult for a company to release a brand new product that is perfect right out of the gate.  ESPECIALLY when this company is not making their own TV Arcade cabinets...they are not apart of this community and they do NOT know immediately what our needs our.  Yes we can spell out our needs on a list and give it to them, but at this point they want to make a product that they can make some money on without having to invest too much in it's production.  They don't even know if it will make a lot of money so they are not willing to invest extra money in it.  

The fact is, they have listened to us a bit and are showing some interest.  They are willing to meet us halfway and at least SLOWLY venture into a NEW market.  IF it's profitable...hey, why not make a new better lightgun?

They are meeting us halfway, but we have to commit to it too.  $40 is NOT very much money.  You are buying MORE than a gun.  You are telling a company that you are interested and you would like them to continue to pursue this market and develop better technology.

I don't know how better to put it.  

Oh and by the way, SVideo is nicer than Composite, but i don't care what any of you say, composite it NOT so bad that it's gonna make you want to puke or something while playing.  You will switch your TV from SVideo to Composite to play the lightgun games and you will see a difference....but after playing for 30 seconds you will not even see or care about the difference.  If you are saying that you REFUSE to buy the lightgun simply because it requres composite...well...i feel sorry you require such perfection in life.  I'm suprised you don't require the lightgun to support hi-def COMPONENT connections!

And the whole 2 player support thing...the lightgun is emulating a mouse pointer and as long as Windows only supports one mouse there is nothing better.  Sorry.  Whatever you do, don't blame Act-Labs.  They ARE trying for us.

Wow that was a long post!

Jakobud

[u_rebelscum]

Great email, but there is one problem with it.  You are not going to get a 2 player gun at this point period.  To make the gun 2 player it would have to be completely re-built from the ground up....
[snip]

Agree.  
Not going to happen with microsoft's stance with multiple mice vs multiple points, and the divided methods of winXP vs winME/9x mouse handling.  
Not with the whole PC software (games and apps) developers view that one pointer per computer is enough, giving microsoft no reason to change.  We are a small part of the PC world, and our view won't change the world.

As much as I want multiple pointer support, it's not coming in the near future in windows.  Thus Act-Labs cannot make 2 player guns without the major overhall HC talked about.  The overhall would include more than just the lightguns, but also the OS or most of the games, or both.  Act-Labs is not strong enough to change those (look at the older serial lightguns not changing but a handful of games).

[Lilwolf]

Well, if they had the 2player version for the PC, maybe their sales wouldn't be so bad...

IE, they might have sold twice as many... I would have bought two in a second!  And I think most around here would have also.

So they can blame themselfs for not almost doubling their sales

[Jakobud]

Well, if they had the 2player version for the PC, maybe their sales wouldn't be so bad...

IE, they might have sold twice as many... I would have bought two in a second!  And I think most around here would have also.

So they can blame themselfs for not almost doubling their sales

Did you read anything rebelscum just wrote?  Come on guys, don't be so ignorant.

[Howard_Casto]

Oh and by the way, SVideo is nicer than Composite, but i don't care what any of you say, composite it NOT so bad that it's gonna make you want to puke or something while playing.  You will switch your TV from SVideo to Composite to play the lightgun games and you will see a difference....but after playing for 30 seconds you will not even see or care about the difference.  If you are saying that you REFUSE to buy the lightgun simply because it requres composite...well...i feel sorry you require such perfection in life.  I'm suprised you don't require the lightgun to support hi-def COMPONENT connections!

I agreed with pretty much all of your post, but at this point you start to go off on a tangent.  I don't know if you know the history of the tv prototype gun, but it orignally had an svideo connection.  They decided to remove it and put a composite to shave a few bucks off of the design.  This seems really odd to me if they ae marketing this thing to our community.  I mean some of us will pay 200+ dollars for a pre-made arcade stick but they were afraid that we wouldn't pay the extra money for a better output?  If they had technical reasons to do it purely composite I would understand, but cost shouldn't be an issue, at least not in this high-spending niche market.  

With that being said, you are right composite isn't such a bad display if and only if you have a really good tv, a really good video card and nicely shielded cables.  I lived with composite for some time before I upgraded my display and I NEVER had a problem with it.  Some people do but they just complain too much.    Also gun games aren't like your traditional arcade game, you are SUPPOSED to stand far away from the display.  Since composite looks fine form a distance there shouldn't be a problem then.  

Ok that's the part I totally agree on but your missing one important point.... Alot of us use svid on our cabinets and if we get this gun we will have the option of either having a special setup just for the gun games or not using svid anymore.  Let me give you an example:  My cabinet has lazarus on it (obviously )  and lacks a trackball and thus windows navigation can be difficult.  My video card (radeon 7500)  only has svideo out and composite out can only be gotten with an adaptor cable.  Also in the display properties svideo has to be turned off and composite turned on or else the display gets overscanning (i believe that's the best way to describe it)  and looks fuzzy, even for a rca out. So if I want a composite signal that's viewable I have to go into windows display properties.  The opposite is held true for the other svid games.

So as it stands currently I would have to go into windows, adjust the display properties, run lazarus, and play either gun games or other games.  When I want to switch tot he toher type of game I would have to exit lazarus adjust the display properties and run it again.  So I can completely understand why people would be upset.  I just spent a few hundred to upgrade my display, I'm not about to downgrade just for gun games.  

BUT and all of you who have been complaining, listen up.... As I said previously I will buy one anyway and make due with it's shortcomings until they improve it and I can buy another one.  Why?  Because it's just like Jakobud, Lilwolf and myself have been trying to preech to you, you can't complain about a product to a company until you've bought one and shown them that you are willing to buy more from them.  Simply put if you want to see a tv-out gun in ANY capacity EVER you MUST buy this gun.  I will help anyone who is trying to convince act-labs to add svideo, but if we fail and it's only composite I will STILL buy one.  My pre-order is going to be sent after the holidays, how about yours?

[Brax]

I'm sorry but I'm not buying a product that doesn't meet my needs. Switching between composite and S-video is a pain. If everyone stands their ground and demands a product that meets our needs as a community it may actually happen. If we don't, guess what will happen? They WON'T. If we stand our ground they also may not make it at all. I don't have a light gun now so how am I worse off?

I'm in Canada (as is Act Labs! Grr) So 40 US isn't exactly cheap when you add in 50% exchange, shipping and handling, GST and PST...... I am NOT paying 70 or 80 dollars for something that kinda meets my needs. On the other hand I would be tempted to pay (possibly even more) for something that DID meet my needs.

I'm not encouraging a company to cut corners so I can "put up with" their product. As far as i'm concerned they can get it right or not make it at all. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Edit:
Also don't forget in the not-too-distant-past. They had "no plans to make a TV light gun" at all. Funny they're considering it now. What makes you think they wouldn't reconsider about S-Video if their consumer base shows that they'd buy it, but not a composite version? Have a backbone guys! Whats the worst that will happen? You won't get a gun? You're living without one now aren't you?

[darkmanx]

how about everybody just does what they want and those that are interested dont need to be criticized for trying to get the word out  

[BASSOFeeSH]

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3909

Horray!

So we finally got the S-Video...now what's your excuse.  

*heads off to pre-order*

[Jakobud]

Wow...see folks!  Act-labs really IS trying.  And do you see how they said that future lightguns may support 2 players!?  They are really trying but they are only going to go so far if we don't support them.  Good job Act-Labs!  I pre-ordered one earlier this morning

And Howard regarding what you were saying about your Radeon's TVout switching/setup...what I was saying in an earlier post is that it would be an idea to actually take your SVideo signal and physically split it with some sort of Y-adapter out the back of your card.  Then, run one cable to your SVideo input on your TV.  The other end could run into an adapter to degrade it into Composite, which would go into the Act-Labs black box, and then that goes into a composite video input on your TV.  So inorder to use the Lightgun all you would have to do is switch Video signals on your TV (I'm pretty sure that most TV's with SVideo have at least 2 video inputs).  But hey, Act-Labs is hooking us up even more now so no need for this idea anymore

[Brax]

No excuse, i'll be ordering just like I said I would if it goes S-Video.

Anyone else feel like this forum is being watched? hehe

[Sasquatch!]

Howard_Casto and Jakobud:

You both make excellent points.  The S-Video thing was a sticking point with me, and now that they're offering it, I'm heading over to Act-Labs to make my preorder right after this post.  Supporting them for listening to us is what we SHOULD do.  

If and when they're able to get two-player support, I'll buy that too.  I'm glad to see that this is getting closer to the point where everyone's happy.

Preordering NOW, baby!

[eightbit]

I pre-ordered mine, did you?  

[OSCAR]

Howard_Casto and Jakobud:

You both make excellent points.  The S-Video thing was a sticking point with me, and now that they're offering it, I'm heading over to Act-Labs to make my preorder right after this post.  Supporting them for listening to us is what we SHOULD do.  

If and when they're able to get two-player support, I'll buy that too.  I'm glad to see that this is getting closer to the point where everyone's happy.

Preordering NOW, baby!

Ditto.  I've just pre-ordered one, too.  I don't even have a MAME cab with a TV at the moment, but that can change anyday...  

I feel compelled to pre-order just because they are trying to do it right and listening to our requirements.  I certainly understand that they may not be able to address every issue that we all may have with their current model, but they are definitely heading in the right direction.  And that's more than enough for me to offer support by purchasing one.

[JLR2000]

Just Pre-Ordered mine.......thanks to the new S-Video Option.....

Now just crossing my fingers for the two player option....

GAME ON!

[SNAAAKE]

i got a simple question.wouldnt this tv version work just like that on 15 khz arcade monitor?since it works with tv scan rate...anyone knows anything on this?i am gonna use brand new arcade monitor with my new cab(with scan converter) so i am thinking i should try and getting one of these guns too .

[Jakobud]

Snake here is a topic on this:

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3911

Preorder now everyone