ACT LABS taking Pre-Orders for TV Gun!

[Bill_S]

I jsut sent my e-mail off to Act Labs telling of my interest in a TV version of their light gun.  They replied back that I should check their website.
They are now taking pre-orders for a TV light gun!!
http://www.act-labs.com/gun1.htm

Here's an excerpt:
TV USB Light Gun for PC

* Please read following note carefully.
We have received many requests for a TV Version of our PC Light Gun.

ACT Labs will be taking pre-orders from now until February 28, 2003 to see if there is enough demand to warrant production. If we hit the minimum number by this date, we will go into production with the TV Light Guns to ship in April 2003.

If the minimum is not reached, all the pre-orders will be cancelled. Your payment will not be processed until the TV USB Light Guns ship in April 2003.

$39.99

Get those pre-orders in!

[BASSOFeeSH]

Damn.

Do I
(A) Wait and see if they make them since I won't be building my cab till I buy a house(a year or two)

or

(B) Order one anyway because I know I want one even  if I won't be able to use it for quite a while.(Plus it helps everyone else)

[Jakobud]

Sweet!  Everyone preorder if you want one!

BASSOFeeSH:  hmmm well if everyone 'WAITS' to see if act-labs even makes the guns then they probably won't even bother making them......

Everyone who wants one of these things should buy one now.

jakobud

[Jungle]

I checked out the website because I was interested in pre-ordering and noticed this:

Requirements:

- PC with an available USB port
- Windows 98SE/Me/2000/XP operating system
- Video card with TV-out capability, either S-Video or   Composite Video outputs
- Composite video cable (male-male)
- TV with Composite Video-in connection


It appears that this will only work on the composite input of the TV, so no S-video with the light gun.  Unless you have a tv out that supports s-video and composite simultaneously, you'll either have to

a - manually switch cables to use the light gun
b - live with a composite input to the TV

Even if it does output both, you will still need a way to switch inputs from s-video to composite in the TV when you want to play lightgun games.

I am surprised that ACT Labs would not have an S-video out.  If in fact it is BYOAC type folks driving this, I would think most of us using TVs have an S-video connection.  Maybe there is some technical reason why it has to be a composite out.

[SNAAAKE]

i dont think it even matters s-video or composite..it will work because the scan rate is down to 15 khz(rca or s-video)..besides didnt you read the requirements?

"Video card with TV-out capability, either S-Video or  Composite Video outputs"
 
...i dont know....I am confused here ..but only guessing.

[_Iz-]

[quote author=SNAAAKE

"Video card with TV-out capability, either S-Video or  Composite Video outputs"
 
...i dont know....I am confused here ..but only guessing.

I had trouble wrapping my head around that one too until I remembered that my brother had to use a s-vid -> composite adapter with his card because his TV only had composite input and his card only had s-vid out. So, what I think Act-Labs is saying is you have to use the composite with the gun but an s-vid only card will work with an adapter to downgrade to composite. It's the lowest common denominator.

[BASSOFeeSH]

At least it looks pretty.

[Warborg]

[quote author=SNAAAKE

"Video card with TV-out capability, either S-Video or  Composite Video outputs"
 
...i dont know....I am confused here ..but only guessing.

I had trouble wrapping my head around that one too until I remembered that my brother had to use a s-vid -> composite adapter with his card because his TV only had composite input and his card only had s-vid out. So, what I think Act-Labs is saying is you have to use the composite with the gun but an s-vid only card will work with an adapter to downgrade to composite. It's the lowest common denominator.

Well, whatever I have to use to get it to work, I will...  

I already put in my pre-order...  Now lets get everyone else to do the same!  

[Jungle]

i dont think it even matters s-video or composite..it will work because the scan rate is down to 15 khz(rca or s-video)..besides didnt you read the requirements?

"Video card with TV-out capability, either S-Video or  Composite Video outputs"
 
...i dont know....I am confused here ..but only guessing.

If you read *all* of the requirements, you will see that it refers to a TV with composite in, and a male-male composite cable.  What I infer from those requirements is that the light gun will accept either S-video or composite inputs, but will only output composite.

I guess we'll have to ask ACT Labs to see if there is an S-video out in addition to the composite out.  It isn't clear from their specifications.

[Mike]

I wouldn't order one till it's actually out. Your just tying up your money for no good reason. It was almost 6 months before the last gun came out and they started taking preorders.

[Xiaou2]

 I have written Act-Lab,  and I suggest all of you should as well.   We need a loud and clear voice about what we really want, and what we will not accept.

  I have the Act-Labs gun, and its not bad... but its also not great...  there are some design flaws, and they should be dealt with for the tv version.

  I have written to say that I will NOT accept a gun that forces me to use composite instead of Svideo input to the TV.   The quality loss is far too great... and I didnt buy an svideo card/tv/cable for nothing.

  Please also write them about the above,  and also, Include this text in your mail if you agree:


  Problems with original gun:

1) gun too short = harder to aim.  Creates fustration.

2) cord length too short - the cord has to reach behind the PC too!
 
3) Trigger too tight - hard to fire rapidly.  I had to remove my spring.

4) Trigger is too close to the gun holder!  Move it forward about 1cm.

5) Reload button in bad place - Uncomfortable, and impossible for Left handers.   Put the reload in the middle of the gun, right under the main trigger. (for the 3rd finger to press)

6) Optional (strong) Kicker coil should be added.  We are willing to pay the extra cash for this!  

7)  Optional Reload/Duck peddel interface hookup port should be added to the design.  A simple stereo cord adapter should be fine.
 

 Sincerely,
 Steve
 

[Warborg]

I wouldn't order one till it's actually out. Your just tying up your money for no good reason. It was almost 6 months before the last gun came out and they started taking preorders.

Hmm...  Were you not paying attention?  

1.  If they don't get enough pre-orders, they will not produce the gun, hence if people don't preorder it, there won't be one to buy.

2.  As the note for the pre-order specified, you will not be charged until the gun actually ships, so you aren't tying anything up.

[lightspeed]

Eventually someone will design a 2-player gun that can be used w/ S-video or component TVs.   I'm holding off until then.

[Warborg]

Eventually someone will design a 2-player gun that can be used w/ S-video or component TVs.   I'm holding off until then.

I hope you are right, but I'm not holding my breath...  It's such a niche market that I don't know how much energy companies are going to devote to this type of stuff...

[Jakobud]

Eventually someone will design a 2-player gun that can be used w/ S-video or component TVs.   I'm holding off until then.

I don't think that anyone else is going to venture into this market anytime soon.  No one else would even bother unless they see that Actlabs is actually making money from it.  So if people hold out for something better....well think about it and you will realize that it won't get any better if no one purchases.  I mean, come on it's only $40.  If you can't afford that then I don't know how you could afford to build/convert an arcade cabinet.

jakobud

[BASSOFeeSH]

 I have written Act-Lab,  and I suggest all of you should as well.   We need a loud and clear voice about what we really want, and what we will not accept.

  I have the Act-Labs gun, and its not bad... but its also not great...  there are some design flaws, and they should be dealt with for the tv version.

  I have written to say that I will NOT accept a gun that forces me to use composite instead of Svideo input to the TV.   The quality loss is far too great... and I didnt buy an svideo card/tv/cable for nothing.

  Please also write them about the above,  and also, Include this text in your mail if you agree:


  Problems with original gun:

1) gun too short = harder to aim.  Creates fustration.

2) cord length too short - the cord has to reach behind the PC too!
 
3) Trigger too tight - hard to fire rapidly.  I had to remove my spring.

4) Trigger is too close to the gun holder!  Move it forward about 1cm.

5) Reload button in bad place - Uncomfortable, and impossible for Left handers.   Put the reload in the middle of the gun, right under the main trigger. (for the 3rd finger to press)

6) Optional (strong) Kicker coil should be added.  We are willing to pay the extra cash for this!  

7)  Optional Reload/Duck peddel interface hookup port should be added to the design.  A simple stereo cord adapter should be fine.

If they're this reluctant to even release it I doubt they're going to spend the time/money to rework this version.

[darkmanx]

if u dont like the actual gun im sure it woul be easy enough to put the guts in a new case and mod it to your liking

[Sasquatch!]

I have written Act-Lab,  and I suggest all of you should as well.   We need a loud and clear voice about what we really want, and what we will not accept.

I concur, and I'm going to do the same.  My next cab in going to be TV through S-Video so I'd love to have a light gun, but I will not accept having to downgrade the signal to composite.  I'd like to pre-order a gun just to get the ball rolling on Act-Labs actually making them, but a composite-only gun would be flat-out unacceptable to me.

I don't think that anyone else is going to venture into this market anytime soon.  No one else would even bother unless they see that Actlabs is actually making money from it.

This goes much, much broader than just us nutcases who build arcade cabinets.    I think that the bulk of their audience would be people who have PC's hooked up to their living room television who want to get into some NES emulation with Duck Hunt goodness.

[darkmanx]

ok first someone needs to get a reply on if it is for sure composite only.

[SirPoonga]

Requirements:

- PC with an available USB port
- Windows 98SE/Me/2000/XP operating system
- Video card with TV-out capability, either S-Video or   Composite Video outputs
- Composite video cable (male-male)
- TV with Composite Video-in connection

Ok, the PC can have svideo or composite out.  The TV just needs composite in.  It comes witht he cabling.  SOOOO, they provide a svideo to composite cable.  

Who knows.

[Jakobud]

I got an official reply from them.  Here it is:

ACTLABS: Unfortunately, the proposed TV light gun will have a composite only connection running to your TV.  But, it will accept S-Video signals(from your video card) and convert them to a composite signal by combining the luminance & chrominance line from the S-Video.




hmmm...Well first of all I was thinking...bummer!  But wait a second....I have a idea. I'm willing to bet that 99% of our TV's that have SVideo input have multiple Video input channels.  For example, my tv has two.  One for SVideo or Composite and one that is Composite only.  So why not just get a Svideo splitter and split the signal from your tvout card.  One Svideo connection will goto your SVideo input on TV.  The other will be downgraded to Composite and run into the Lightgun box thing and that will run into a DIFFERENT composite video input on your TV.  So you have TWO Video signals going into your tv from one source.  So when you DO want to play a lightgun game all you have to do is change to the other video input channel.  Yes, you will still have to put up with Composite video for that small handfull of lightgun games but you definately won't need to convert completely over to Composite for all the games.  So you can easily switch back and forth between the video input signals to your hearts content  I think that will work for me, until they decide to make a svideo one.  Hmm...I wonder how hard it would be to take the little lightgun box and hack it so it bypasses the SVideo>composite degrader and outputs a svideo signal still....hmmm....there a lot of cool information on these sort of video hacks at www.gamesx.com if anyone wants to take a look.  Might be possible.  What do you guys think about the video input switching idea though?

[Brax]

No thanks.... Blah! They really just don't get it do they?

Also, the thing looks like a 50's ray gun..... a TINY 50's ray gun. Add to that fact that they're making it a pain to use. I'd rather buy the full arcade versions of the gun games i want!!! Ok, maybe not....... but my point is I'd pay for a quality product!

Look what we spend on trackballs, spinners, and multiple interfaces. This crowd isn't afraid to spend money on a quality product and act labs continually shortchanges us with an inferior light gun. I'm out. Someday someone will get it right. Act Labs isn't even close.

[Xiaou2]

 No offense... but thats still Lame.

  If I play a lightgun game... be it mame, or a pc based game... I want the picture to look nice.  I dont want blurred and faded crap.

  ActLabs has stated that thier marketing team has to make the call weather or not to try any re-tool the thing... or sell it as is.   We have to stand our grounds... and ask for the re-tooling.  We have to affirm that we will pay for extra for a QUALITY gun.  Let our voices be heard... and our pocketbooks waive.

  Im totally willing to pay up to 100$ for a quality tv gun.  And when I say quality... I mean with all the things fixed that Ive stated above... especially for the strong coil for feedback.

[eightbit]

Hmmm, do I hold out for the ultimate gun or do I settle for a gun that works? My opinion is to settle, if there is money in it they will continue to develop better guns. If they don't get started their will never be any gun.

Besides, we're adapters, if they build a working gun and we can adapt it to make it better with a longer barrel, better recoil, longer cord, better video output then maybe they will notice and update theirs but if it never gets off the ground we will have nothing. Kind of like what we have now...  

 :PFor all the whiners out their I would say they at least they seem to be willing to listen and respond. They are proposing a product that we have asked for. We should let them know what we want but we should also understand that they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. It has to be financially viable.

So email them and let them know what we want. Don't threaten them with I'm not going to buy it if you don't meet my every demand. Then support them and buy a gun.

[darkmanx]

agreed. though it is quite a shame.

[lightspeed]

I agree w/ Xiaou2.  Why spend money on a product that does not meet our needs?    I certainly appreciate their efforts, but there appear to be several limitations that they may not be willing to address.

Don't fool yourselfs into believing that no other company will develop such a product.   Consider all the high-defintion TV formats out there - its just a matter of time before light guns are developed for them whose technology could then be easily migrated a standard NTSC screen.    

[Warborg]

I agree w/ Xiaou2.  Why spend money on a product that does not meet our needs?    I certainly appreciate their efforts, but there appear to be several limitations that they may not be willing to address.

Don't fool yourselfs into believing that no other company will develop such a product.   Consider all the high-defintion TV formats out there - its just a matter of time before light guns are developed for them whose technology could then be easily migrated a standard NTSC screen.    

I disagree with you...  If we don't CREATE a market for this type of stuff, no one will bother to MAKE anything for this type of market...  So you can hold out for a product that meets your specific needs and have NOTHING, or get a product that will at least partially meet your needs in the hopes that down the road one will be released that is more to your liking.  I also agree 100% with EIGHTBIT stating that we are adapters and will be able to modify it more to our liking.  I can see being able to transplant it into a new casing, to change the trigger pressure, to even come up with some sort of rumbler/kicker, remote duck/reload button, etc...

[Silverwind]

I agree w/ Xiaou2.  Why spend money on a product that does not meet our needs?    I certainly appreciate their efforts, but there appear to be several limitations that they may not be willing to address.

Don't fool yourselfs into believing that no other company will develop such a product.   Consider all the high-defintion TV formats out there - its just a matter of time before light guns are developed for them whose technology could then be easily migrated a standard NTSC screen.    

I disagree with you...  If we don't CREATE a market for this type of stuff, no one will bother to MAKE anything for this type of market...  So you can hold out for a product that meets your specific needs and have NOTHING, or get a product that will at least partially meet your needs in the hopes that down the road one will be released that is more to your liking.  I also agree 100% with EIGHTBIT stating that we are adapters and will be able to modify it more to our liking.  I can see being able to transplant it into a new casing, to change the trigger pressure, to even come up with some sort of rumbler/kicker, remote duck/reload button, etc...

yep.. it has to start somewhere!  Even if not act-labs.. other companies might not want to drop the $$ to build a high quality light gun if they are not sure it will sell well...

[Xiaou2]

I agree w/ Xiaou2.  Why spend money on a product that does not meet our needs?    I certainly appreciate their efforts, but there appear to be several limitations that they may not be willing to address.

Don't fool yourselfs into believing that no other company will develop such a product.   Consider all the high-defintion TV formats out there - its just a matter of time before light guns are developed for them whose technology could then be easily migrated a standard NTSC screen.    

I disagree with you...  If we don't CREATE a market for this type of stuff, no one will bother to MAKE anything for this type of market...  So you can hold out for a product that meets your specific needs and have NOTHING, or get a product that will at least partially meet your needs in the hopes that down the road one will be released that is more to your liking.  I also agree 100% with EIGHTBIT stating that we are adapters and will be able to modify it more to our liking.  I can see being able to transplant it into a new casing, to change the trigger pressure, to even come up with some sort of rumbler/kicker, remote duck/reload button, etc...

   Making an apapter seems like it would be quite tough to do... if not near impossible.    Also, if you decide to try to make a new shell... if its off by a few degrees... your going to have issues.  

=====
   Hello Steve,

At that time it came down to the costs.  It is possible to change the design to S-Video or even Component.  But there would be a significant increase in cost & extra resources/development time.  This will be up to the marketing department to compromise between demand versus development time of
additional features.

Regards,
Grant.
=====

  As stated... its still possible for them to fix the MESS of a gun that was originally designed.   Ive never seen such a poor gun design for any console or system period.   Sure, it Works... but thats about all it has going for it.   Should we settle for that?

  Actlabs is worried that it cant make its money off of you... that you all will either settle for the gun as is... or that you arnt willing to pay for a better gun.  

  If you put your point across that you would be willing to spend the money on a 'quality' gun... then they would have a reason to make a good gun.  

  Honestly... they sold the original gun for like 30$... and the gun itself, has litterally nothing of value in it.   A simple opto... a few connectors, and a cheap (VERY CHEAP) plactic shell.   Im sure that they made money off of it.     More money than the first batch of guns that they made... and failed with.

  If you settle for less... than thats all you will ever get.   They arnt going to change thier views and remake the gun yet again at a later date if the tv gun sells good... as that wouldnt make any sence to them.    Remaking it now, would be a lot more sensible... if there is demand...  and I say, that you should demand it.

  And finally, I have supported the 'Market' by purchasing a monitor gun.  To me, thats enough support to show that there is a market.  Now, to buy another gun, yet not of better quality isnt going to cut it.   Ive help make the market... yet, I demand performance.   If they are smart, they will adapt to thier customers needs/wants... as thats who supports thier buisness.


 

   

[BASSOFeeSH]

Tough call.  I think I'll order one though.  $40 isn't that bad & I can always EBAY it if they ever get around to "fixing" the design.

[darkmanx]

this is my idea. ill preorder one and also email them begging for it to be s-video. if nothing changes by release time i will simply cancel.

[BASSOFeeSH]

I also emailed them asking for at the very least an S-Video model.

[Smack]

Well, I pre-ordered one. Why not, its only $40.

Yeah it'd be mint if they make it with Video output, but something is better than nothing! (To me anyways...)

By the way, I like the idea of splitting and using multiple video sources, ie: svideo for everything but the gun games. That's what I plan on doing. Once I drink enough, the screen ends up looking the same to me.

My 2 cents.
Smack

[atog]

It's worthless to me if it doesn't support svideo.  That is the way my MAME cab is set up and it's going to stay that way.  It is also nearly worthless if only one of these works at a time.  The shooting games are nearly all simultaneous 2 player co-op games, and that is how I would want to play them.  

Also the look of the gun is sub-optimal to me.  I would want a tangible barrel to make it feel and look right.  This wouldn't cost them hardly anything more at all to produce, so I have no idea why they opted for such a cheap looking design.

Holding out for an svideo capable 'gun looking' gun, and when it comes I will take 2 please.

[wee beastie]

No business dives head first into a market without testing the waters.  That being said, act-labs is new to the whole light gun arena.  If they make a tv-lightgun, this will be a third generation product, right?  No established business would ever go all out for a product that has not shown a significant revenue stream. PERIOD.  Yes, a startup company would go all out, as they don't have any products, and the product would have to support them.  Act-Labs, however, has other products that are more likely to be the flagship of their lineup.

That being said, all of you will have to settle with pre-ordering this light gun if you ever want to see any future light-guns from act-labs again.

I know this because I do it for a living.  Being a financial consultant, I'm amazed they even considered making the tv lightgun in the first place.  I suppose it waits to be seen if they'll even make them.

for what it's worth, I preordered for a few reasons.  
-it works, and I currently have nothing else that does
-to show support
-to show that this community is serious about our gaming needs
-i like a project, and i'd like to give a shot at gutting this thing
-$40 will not break the bank.  I've bought more foolish products in the past in the hopes of working around with them.

[Smack]

Wee Beastie -

Well spoken. I couldn't have phrased it better myself.

Smack

[Xiaou2]

No business dives head first into a market without testing the waters.

 - they did.  they sold the monitor gun.   If it didnt do well... then why even consider a tv gun!!!???

- Also, not many companys put out a product witout a solid design and good testing of it.   ActLabs however, have made the worst gun in the history of guns for any system - arcade ot console!   Even my old 8 bit sega master system gun feels/controls better than it!

 That being said, act-labs is new to the whole light gun arena.  If they make a tv-lightgun, this will be a third generation product, right?

-  How many generations should it take to make a GOOD product?!!! How many people do you have to piss off at lousy quality products before giving them what they want?!    If you do it right the first time... youd save money,  make the customers happy... and get more overall sales Period!


  No established business would ever go all out for a product that has not shown a significant revenue stream. PERIOD.

 - Every product is a risk.   While lightguns are even more so of a  risk than most products... there was no competition, and people were asking for them.   There was excitement at release of it... but it could have been explosive if they had made it near perfect.

 Yes, a startup company would go all out, as they don't have any products, and the product would have to support them.  Act-Labs, however, has other products that are more likely to be the flagship of their lineup.


- The reason actlabs has a flagship product is because they took a risk.  They made a superior wheel to what was out there at the time... even tho,  pc wheels wernt the biggest thing to have.   Thier design, has been tough for others to catch up to.   Its been top with all those whacky people like us... who would rather spend the money on a Quality product rather than a cheaply made lower costing product.    It worked for them...  and would still work if they kept the same attitude.
 

That being said, all of you will have to settle with pre-ordering this light gun if you ever want to see any future light-guns from act-labs again.

- B.S.   I dont have to settle for anything.   I supported the pc gun... and to me,  that was enough.  If they want more from me... then they will have to listen my wants.      With enough 'votes',  act-labs can upgrade the gun.   They have changed it before... and surely, they can change it again.

I know this because I do it for a living.  Being a financial consultant, I'm amazed they even considered making the tv lightgun in the first place.  I suppose it waits to be seen if they'll even make them.

- I bet if you were approached by the people who ended up making 'dragons lair'... you would have turned them down.  They gave the people what they wanted... something new, innovative, pushed the boundarys... and for that,  they were barraged with cash.   "No guts = no glory"


  Send in your plea to actlabs for an improoved gun... and what you are willing to pay for it.   they will listen, if there are enough of us.
It cant hurt... and surely, it may lead to a much higher quality standard that may never have been achieved without us begging for it.

 

[1UP]

Personally, I don't give a damn what kind of video connection it has, I'm not buying anything until they implement 2 player support.  I already can play 2 player gun games using my T2 positional guns, why would I settle for one player just to get a little more freedom of movement?  And I've already hacked my own recoil system (with some help).  Good thing too, I doubt they'll ever offer it.

If they don't think there's enough money to be made, why don't they keep it in R&D until they get it right?  At least they could justify charging twice as much for a 2 gun system!  And I'd pay it.

[u_rebelscum]

Personally, I don't give a damn what kind of video connection it has, I'm not buying anything until they implement 2 player support.  I already can play 2 player gun games using my T2 positional guns, why would I settle for one player just to get a little more freedom of movement?  And I've already hacked my own recoil system (with some help).  Good thing too, I doubt they'll ever offer it.

If they don't think there's enough money to be made, why don't they keep it in R&D until they get it right?  At least they could justify charging twice as much for a 2 gun system!  And I'd pay it.

You will never get a two gun system in Windows if the guns act as mice until a) microsoft changes windows, (and/) or b) every major PC lightgun game (mame is one) is edited to handle it.  If windows is not changed, then each edited game will need two versions, a winMe/9x version and a winXP version, with the winXP version not as fast input as the win9x version.
Act-Labs might try to do a two mouse-like lightgun if they had a software division, but they don't.  So I think it will never happen.

A two gun system with the guns as joysticks is very possible (has been made), but you still have to edit ~3/4 the games.  But you wouldn't have the cool play windows solitare abilty.  Act-labs tried it and it didn't sell.
Hmm... add a -joystickgun option for analog+?  (just thinking out loud)

[Howard_Casto]

Ok I HAD to put my two cents in here.  First off you guys shouldn't be so hard on act labs... their resaerch and development team are trying but they just don't "get it."  The fact that they are trying to meet our needs is mroe than most companys are willing to do and you should be grateful for that.  Also you can't demadn that they do it better, yes you are the customer, but you haven't been buying their product, so you can't complain when they don't want to invest a lot of money into a new version.    

Secondly, to contradict my own self, you shouldn't be so easy on act-labs either.  Does anyone but me find it odd that us amateurs can think of better ways to interface the guns to a tv?  I mean maybe it's because we aren't experts on the technology that we don't understand their reasoning, but I seriously doubt it.  As rebel said, make the guns a frikkin joystick so we can have two of them.  Yes it would require some new code or patches for many old games, but if you are making a product and don't expect people to make NEW games for it then you are doomed to failure anyway.    

Also if you have the ability to make a gun interface with the going standard, then why would you downgrade it to make it more affordable?  Lets say this new company comes out with this spiffy new dvd player that does stuff no other dvd player in the world would do.  But this same dvd player is about 100$ more than the standard dvd player. Would that company be stupid enough to cut costs by removing the svideo out?  Heck no, because EVERY new tv larger than 25 inches has a svideo connection.   "Hell lets make it play vhs tapes instead, that will cut costs."  Yes it would except no one buys vcrs anymore if they can help it, they buy dvd players.  


So with both views in mind.  Here's the deal.....  Act Labs makes a great little light gun and since we have no other alternative at this point I suggest you buy it even if it's not exactly what you wanted.   Act Labs R&D department needs to be "restructured." They can make good products if they would actually listen to the target market and figure out who the hell their target market is.  I'm really confused as to who their market is at this point.  Is it us or the casual gamer or what?  It seems that this gun partially meets the needs of everyone, but "partially" isn't going to sell a lot of guns.  If they want to get rid of their spare parts from the failing svga gun then this is a smart move.  If they wish to sell a product that will make them money and will be around for a while then they need to go back to the drawing board.  
 

[BASSOFeeSH]

I also emailed them asking for at the very least an S-Video model.

Their reply was that they'd take it into consideration. Period.

Not that I expected more.  I'll still probably get one.

[Sasquatch!]

First off you guys shouldn't be so hard on act labs...
Secondly, to contradict my own self, you shouldn't be so easy on act-labs either.

I agree with both of these points.  I'm still not going to buy one (or pre-order one) though, unless they get some of the issues hammered out - the biggest one being S-Video input for the TV.

I agree that it's a good thing to support them overall by buying the current gun, but think about it: if everybody buys one, what incentive do they have to ever fix it?  NONE.

I completely agree with Xiaou2.  The current gun offering is $40.  I'd gladly pay twice that to get a gun that was actually made well and did what I (or we) want it to.

I'm going to send them a friendly email telling them that if they make a slightly better-quality gun, and most importantly get the gun to support S-Video, they'll have people like us lining up to pay for them.

[Sasquatch!]

Dear Act-Labs,

First off, I'd like to say a big "Thanks!" to Act-Labs for even offering a TV gun as a possibility!  I'm part of the MAME arcade cabinet building community, and this is something that we've really been looking forward to!

That said, I'm afraid that I won't be pre-ordering one of these guns for a couple of very big reasons.  First off, the fact that it will require me to have a composite connection running to the TV is simply unacceptable to myself and to most of us in the gaming community.  As much as I would love to have a TV light gun, I simply cannot justify having to downgrade my connection from S-Video to composite: the loss of quality is just far too great.  Also, having two-player capability is simply a MUST for this kind of product, since practically every arcade game that has guns is two-player.  I'm sure that additional R&D costs that would be incurred with such a design, but you'd obviously be selling guns in batches of two instead of one, which would be a good thing for everyone!

I do realize that you need to have a minimum pre-order in order to justify the expense of producing these guns, but please believe me when I say that the huge majority of people that I know would be willing to pay "quality prices" for a quality product.  I would just hate to see Act-Labs interpreting fewer people taking you up on your offer of a $39.99 gun which doesn't meet most people's requirements as a sign that nobody is interested in having a TV light gun.  I think that a higher-quality and feature-rich light gun would be something that would sell very well, even at twice the price that you're asking.  I guess the bottom line to what I'm saying is that I would gladly spend more money on something that does what I want, but I don't see myself spending ANY money on something that DOESN'T work the way that I need it to...and I don't believe that I'm alone in thinking this way.

Thanks for taking the time to read this!  Also, thanks for listening to us - the gaming consumers.  It really does mean a lot to us.

Sincerely,

-John Pinner
webmaster - www.arcadeparadise.org

[Howard_Casto]

Great email, but there is one problem with it.  You are not going to get a 2 player gun at this point period.  To make the gun 2 player it would have to be completely re-built from the ground up, which considering their poor sales of the svga guns they won't do (yet).  However svideo support would be realitively cheap and easy to modify the current gun with, so we might convince them to do that.  

But if you want a 2 player gun you will almost HAVE to buy a 1 player gun so that they can justify the development costs.  

And for some of you that are saying "but if everyone buys the crappy gun then what insentive will they have to make another model?"  Well that is exactly how marketing works.  Microsoft's sidewinder series is the most popular pc game controller of all time and a lot of people have them.  Yet, they still manage to make a new stick each year.  Why?  Because they made money off of the first one, so they can afford to make a new controller with improvements rather than to continue to sell the old one.  M$ will continue to make sidewinders until the sales drop so much that it's no longer cost effective to do so.  

Why?  Because good sales of a similar product from a previous quarter "proves" a market  is good and reduces the perception of risk, and thus  convinces companys and investors to continue the line.  It makes absolutely no sense at the local level but makes perfect sense on a larger scale.  It's a hard concept to grasp but trust me, it holds true.  

I'm not saying to buy something you don't want, I'm just saying you are going to have to compromise on some things, at this point, at least.  Isn't 1 player better than no player?  Especially when the gun only costs 40 bucks.

[Jakobud]

Okay.....here's an analogy:

I develop PS2 games for a living.  I work for one of the bigger PS2 developer's and we buy a lot of different types of 3d Software for modeling, animation, mocap etc...we have a lot of money so we can afford to buy MANY licenses of certain software for certain companies.  For a few companies we have more licenses than any other company in the world.

Now, these programs are not ALL perfect.  There is never one end-all solution to everything with these programs.  So we make due with what we have and we are grateful.  BUT because we buy so many licenses and spend so much money on them...the developers listen to us more than anyone else...We are in production and when we use their programs we see things that they need to add/change to their software.  The developers are NOT in a production environment and they would have never thought to add some of the requests we ask for simply for that reason.  BUT they do listen to us and add in features BECAUSE we spend the big bucks on their software.

Now if you have read this whole message I think you know where I am heading...it's very difficult for a company to release a brand new product that is perfect right out of the gate.  ESPECIALLY when this company is not making their own TV Arcade cabinets...they are not apart of this community and they do NOT know immediately what our needs our.  Yes we can spell out our needs on a list and give it to them, but at this point they want to make a product that they can make some money on without having to invest too much in it's production.  They don't even know if it will make a lot of money so they are not willing to invest extra money in it.  

The fact is, they have listened to us a bit and are showing some interest.  They are willing to meet us halfway and at least SLOWLY venture into a NEW market.  IF it's profitable...hey, why not make a new better lightgun?

They are meeting us halfway, but we have to commit to it too.  $40 is NOT very much money.  You are buying MORE than a gun.  You are telling a company that you are interested and you would like them to continue to pursue this market and develop better technology.

I don't know how better to put it.  

Oh and by the way, SVideo is nicer than Composite, but i don't care what any of you say, composite it NOT so bad that it's gonna make you want to puke or something while playing.  You will switch your TV from SVideo to Composite to play the lightgun games and you will see a difference....but after playing for 30 seconds you will not even see or care about the difference.  If you are saying that you REFUSE to buy the lightgun simply because it requres composite...well...i feel sorry you require such perfection in life.  I'm suprised you don't require the lightgun to support hi-def COMPONENT connections!

And the whole 2 player support thing...the lightgun is emulating a mouse pointer and as long as Windows only supports one mouse there is nothing better.  Sorry.  Whatever you do, don't blame Act-Labs.  They ARE trying for us.

Wow that was a long post!

Jakobud

[u_rebelscum]

Great email, but there is one problem with it.  You are not going to get a 2 player gun at this point period.  To make the gun 2 player it would have to be completely re-built from the ground up....
[snip]

Agree.  
Not going to happen with microsoft's stance with multiple mice vs multiple points, and the divided methods of winXP vs winME/9x mouse handling.  
Not with the whole PC software (games and apps) developers view that one pointer per computer is enough, giving microsoft no reason to change.  We are a small part of the PC world, and our view won't change the world.

As much as I want multiple pointer support, it's not coming in the near future in windows.  Thus Act-Labs cannot make 2 player guns without the major overhall HC talked about.  The overhall would include more than just the lightguns, but also the OS or most of the games, or both.  Act-Labs is not strong enough to change those (look at the older serial lightguns not changing but a handful of games).

[Lilwolf]

Well, if they had the 2player version for the PC, maybe their sales wouldn't be so bad...

IE, they might have sold twice as many... I would have bought two in a second!  And I think most around here would have also.

So they can blame themselfs for not almost doubling their sales

[Jakobud]

Well, if they had the 2player version for the PC, maybe their sales wouldn't be so bad...

IE, they might have sold twice as many... I would have bought two in a second!  And I think most around here would have also.

So they can blame themselfs for not almost doubling their sales

Did you read anything rebelscum just wrote?  Come on guys, don't be so ignorant.

[Howard_Casto]

Oh and by the way, SVideo is nicer than Composite, but i don't care what any of you say, composite it NOT so bad that it's gonna make you want to puke or something while playing.  You will switch your TV from SVideo to Composite to play the lightgun games and you will see a difference....but after playing for 30 seconds you will not even see or care about the difference.  If you are saying that you REFUSE to buy the lightgun simply because it requres composite...well...i feel sorry you require such perfection in life.  I'm suprised you don't require the lightgun to support hi-def COMPONENT connections!

I agreed with pretty much all of your post, but at this point you start to go off on a tangent.  I don't know if you know the history of the tv prototype gun, but it orignally had an svideo connection.  They decided to remove it and put a composite to shave a few bucks off of the design.  This seems really odd to me if they ae marketing this thing to our community.  I mean some of us will pay 200+ dollars for a pre-made arcade stick but they were afraid that we wouldn't pay the extra money for a better output?  If they had technical reasons to do it purely composite I would understand, but cost shouldn't be an issue, at least not in this high-spending niche market.  

With that being said, you are right composite isn't such a bad display if and only if you have a really good tv, a really good video card and nicely shielded cables.  I lived with composite for some time before I upgraded my display and I NEVER had a problem with it.  Some people do but they just complain too much.    Also gun games aren't like your traditional arcade game, you are SUPPOSED to stand far away from the display.  Since composite looks fine form a distance there shouldn't be a problem then.  

Ok that's the part I totally agree on but your missing one important point.... Alot of us use svid on our cabinets and if we get this gun we will have the option of either having a special setup just for the gun games or not using svid anymore.  Let me give you an example:  My cabinet has lazarus on it (obviously )  and lacks a trackball and thus windows navigation can be difficult.  My video card (radeon 7500)  only has svideo out and composite out can only be gotten with an adaptor cable.  Also in the display properties svideo has to be turned off and composite turned on or else the display gets overscanning (i believe that's the best way to describe it)  and looks fuzzy, even for a rca out. So if I want a composite signal that's viewable I have to go into windows display properties.  The opposite is held true for the other svid games.

So as it stands currently I would have to go into windows, adjust the display properties, run lazarus, and play either gun games or other games.  When I want to switch tot he toher type of game I would have to exit lazarus adjust the display properties and run it again.  So I can completely understand why people would be upset.  I just spent a few hundred to upgrade my display, I'm not about to downgrade just for gun games.  

BUT and all of you who have been complaining, listen up.... As I said previously I will buy one anyway and make due with it's shortcomings until they improve it and I can buy another one.  Why?  Because it's just like Jakobud, Lilwolf and myself have been trying to preech to you, you can't complain about a product to a company until you've bought one and shown them that you are willing to buy more from them.  Simply put if you want to see a tv-out gun in ANY capacity EVER you MUST buy this gun.  I will help anyone who is trying to convince act-labs to add svideo, but if we fail and it's only composite I will STILL buy one.  My pre-order is going to be sent after the holidays, how about yours?

[Brax]

I'm sorry but I'm not buying a product that doesn't meet my needs. Switching between composite and S-video is a pain. If everyone stands their ground and demands a product that meets our needs as a community it may actually happen. If we don't, guess what will happen? They WON'T. If we stand our ground they also may not make it at all. I don't have a light gun now so how am I worse off?

I'm in Canada (as is Act Labs! Grr) So 40 US isn't exactly cheap when you add in 50% exchange, shipping and handling, GST and PST...... I am NOT paying 70 or 80 dollars for something that kinda meets my needs. On the other hand I would be tempted to pay (possibly even more) for something that DID meet my needs.

I'm not encouraging a company to cut corners so I can "put up with" their product. As far as i'm concerned they can get it right or not make it at all. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Edit:
Also don't forget in the not-too-distant-past. They had "no plans to make a TV light gun" at all. Funny they're considering it now. What makes you think they wouldn't reconsider about S-Video if their consumer base shows that they'd buy it, but not a composite version? Have a backbone guys! Whats the worst that will happen? You won't get a gun? You're living without one now aren't you?

[darkmanx]

how about everybody just does what they want and those that are interested dont need to be criticized for trying to get the word out  

[BASSOFeeSH]

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3909

Horray!

So we finally got the S-Video...now what's your excuse.  

*heads off to pre-order*

[Jakobud]

Wow...see folks!  Act-labs really IS trying.  And do you see how they said that future lightguns may support 2 players!?  They are really trying but they are only going to go so far if we don't support them.  Good job Act-Labs!  I pre-ordered one earlier this morning

And Howard regarding what you were saying about your Radeon's TVout switching/setup...what I was saying in an earlier post is that it would be an idea to actually take your SVideo signal and physically split it with some sort of Y-adapter out the back of your card.  Then, run one cable to your SVideo input on your TV.  The other end could run into an adapter to degrade it into Composite, which would go into the Act-Labs black box, and then that goes into a composite video input on your TV.  So inorder to use the Lightgun all you would have to do is switch Video signals on your TV (I'm pretty sure that most TV's with SVideo have at least 2 video inputs).  But hey, Act-Labs is hooking us up even more now so no need for this idea anymore

[Brax]

No excuse, i'll be ordering just like I said I would if it goes S-Video.

Anyone else feel like this forum is being watched? hehe

[Sasquatch!]

Howard_Casto and Jakobud:

You both make excellent points.  The S-Video thing was a sticking point with me, and now that they're offering it, I'm heading over to Act-Labs to make my preorder right after this post.  Supporting them for listening to us is what we SHOULD do.  

If and when they're able to get two-player support, I'll buy that too.  I'm glad to see that this is getting closer to the point where everyone's happy.

Preordering NOW, baby!

[eightbit]

I pre-ordered mine, did you?  

[OSCAR]

Howard_Casto and Jakobud:

You both make excellent points.  The S-Video thing was a sticking point with me, and now that they're offering it, I'm heading over to Act-Labs to make my preorder right after this post.  Supporting them for listening to us is what we SHOULD do.  

If and when they're able to get two-player support, I'll buy that too.  I'm glad to see that this is getting closer to the point where everyone's happy.

Preordering NOW, baby!

Ditto.  I've just pre-ordered one, too.  I don't even have a MAME cab with a TV at the moment, but that can change anyday...  

I feel compelled to pre-order just because they are trying to do it right and listening to our requirements.  I certainly understand that they may not be able to address every issue that we all may have with their current model, but they are definitely heading in the right direction.  And that's more than enough for me to offer support by purchasing one.

[JLR2000]

Just Pre-Ordered mine.......thanks to the new S-Video Option.....

Now just crossing my fingers for the two player option....

GAME ON!

[SNAAAKE]

i got a simple question.wouldnt this tv version work just like that on 15 khz arcade monitor?since it works with tv scan rate...anyone knows anything on this?i am gonna use brand new arcade monitor with my new cab(with scan converter) so i am thinking i should try and getting one of these guns too .

[Jakobud]

Snake here is a topic on this:

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3911

Preorder now everyone