TOKN KB16 (Tiger-Heli's Testing Complete)

[Tiger-Heli]

This is in relation to my comments in this message (currently locked)  In this reply, I implied that an 8x2 matrix encoder could avoid ghosting without the use of diodes.

Mainly I am posting this as I hate inaccurate comments on the board, and my comments in that particular message confused RandyT (among others), which was an accomplishment in itself.  I re-thought my position and now want to re-state it as follows:

My original theory was incorrect, I don

[nostrebor]

I had considered trying one out in the past. Even bid on several in an attempt to pick one up at a reasonable comparative price point. I would have gone so far as to consider sending one I purchased to someone to test out, if it would have cleared the water on the matter of the matrix. But after the reactions here of mattp, I have decided not to support his product. Trust and respect must be earned, and EBAY feedback alone will not get there in my book.

Randy or Andy will get my $$$ at this point.

[Tiger-Heli]

A matrix-based encoder, in and of itself, isn't a problem.  (It probably won't be as fast as a direct input encoder, but we've been down that road before).

The problem is Mattp initially said it did not use a matrix or diodes, then said it did, but didn't say that it used diodes, so now nobody knows what it really is or isn't (at least I don't).

<Edit> we now know it is an 8x2 encoder with no diodes and with ghosting

[Chris]

Doesn't KevSteele have one of these in his possession?  If so, it should be easy to wire up all the inputs, press them all, release them all and see the results and put this to bed once and for all, shouldn't it?

--Chris

[Voodooray]

Hi.
just to shove my two peneth in.
A major problem i have with the thing is the fact that it is advertised as hot swapable.
If Mattp can show me the part of the IEEE defacto standard that says a PS/2 device is hot swappable i will gladly and publicly retract this gripe.
I have no vested interest in any of his competetors products before i am accused of such. I merely think that this is at best, poor research or at worst, a blatant attempt to deceive people who may be less knowledgeable. i am however sure it is the former.

Voodoo Ray.

[Chris]

If Mattp can show me the part of the IEEE defacto standard that says a PS/2 device is hot swappable i will gladly and publicly retract this gripe.

It is not.

[Tiger-Heli]

Doesn't KevSteele have one of these in his possession?  If so, it should be easy to wire up all the inputs, press them all, release them all and see the results and put this to bed once and for all, shouldn't it?

--Chris

KevSteele's unit is on it's way to me, and that will be one of the first things I will try (after verifying the inputs work individually).

[Tiger-Heli]

<Edit:  For those new to the thread, this was my test to see if all 16 inputs could be used simultaneously and they can't

Test results are in.  Thanks again to KevSteele for getting the unit to me so quickly.

NOTE: Comparisons to the KeyWiz are only because that is what I am familiar with. 

METHODOLOGY:  The test itself is unorthodox, but simple.  I didn't have extra switches around or want to crimp connectors to an IDE cable, so I plan to use motherboard jumpers to simulate switch closures.  I should be able to close all sixteen inputs with no missed or extra keypresses.  If so, the unit passes, as far as I'm concerned.  So let's see what happens.

RESULTS - This unit sucks.  It sucks BAD.  It is obvious that it uses a matrix, and also that it does not use diodes to prevent ghosting nor does it incorporate blocking.  What it does do is exhibit ghosting.  Lots of ghosting.

Before anyone claims I rigged the test b/c I wanted the TOKN to do badly, I actually thought it would do what it claimed.  In fact, I'm surprised, both since $1.60 in diodes should cure the problems, and laying out the matrix better would have made them less noticeable (although it would have made the PCB layout less clean).  (Also, I wrote everything down as I did it, and you can see the review starts much more favorable than it ends).

As it is, I can't recommend this unit for anything and will be giving the unit a negative rating on my review page.  If you picked the inputs carefully, you probably could use half the inputs (an 8 by 1 matrix) with no problems, maybe (maybe not).

Here is how the testing went.

TESTING:  I plugged the KB16 in and started the PC.  The LED on the board flashed a couple of times during boot, then went out.  I re-booted the PC for some non-related reasons and then hot plugged the device in.  The PC speaker made a brief annoying beep and the LED again flashed and went out.

The PC cable jacks seem very tight on the board, but that may just be because it is not bolted down like the KeyWiz is.  They are plastic instead of the metal the KeyWiz uses, though.

I next fired up KeyScan by Digital Genesis.  I like this program because it has a numerical counter for keys depressed.

Next I individually jumpered keys - both to make sure my jumper theory worked, and also to make sure KeyScan was up to the task.  The first time through both the Button 3 (Spacebar) and Button 5 (Z) inputs caused a pull-down menu to appear and KeyScan to beep at me.  I went back to these keys and couldn't get the problem to repeat.

I did some testing with my regular keyboard and found KeyScan really dislikes having the Alt key held down.  I decided to re-program Button 1 to B and Button 2 to N.  This would give me a chance to test the programmability of the board and the pass-thru function.

The Pass-thru seems to be working, I am using it to type this.

I was unable to program the unit.  I didn't bring the documentation with me, and what I thought I remembered reading about programming it failed.  I am not faulting the board until I can verify with the documentation, though.  <edit: I just reviewed the documentation.  I was not pressing the Scroll Lock key first as I was supposed to.  This is probably not a fault with the KB16.>

Back to testing, and here it get's ugly.  (BTW, at this point, I unplugged the keyboard from the pass-thru, so I wasn't re-programming the board accidentally <edit: unnecessarily, as it turns out>.  I also switched to handwriting notes as Word didn't like have a keyboard with stuck keys plugged in).  I decided to save Alt for last since KeyScan doesn't like it.  I then jumpered these keys in sequence, leaving the jumpers in place.

I jumpered Button 1
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 1
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 1
Okay.

I jumpered Button 3
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Space. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 2
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 2
Okay.

I jumpered Button 4
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 4
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 3
Uh-oh - I didn't press Alt.

I jumpered Button 5
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 6
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 4
Uh-oh - This is starting to look REAL bad.

I jumpered Button 6
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 6
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 5
Nothing added since the "ghost" X was already displayed.

I jumpered Button 7
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 8
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 6
Again, two keys added when only one is depressed.

I jumpered Button 8
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 8
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 7
Nothing added since the ghost V was already displayed.

I jumpered 1P Start
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 10
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 8
Again, two keys added when only one is depressed.

I jumpered 2P Start
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 10
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 9
Nothing added since the ghost 2 was already displayed.

I jumpered Coin 1
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 12
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 10
Again, two keys added when only one is depressed.  Not a good situation when a coin entry can generate a ghosted Esc depress.

I jumpered Escape
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 12
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 11
Nothing added since the ghost Esc was already displayed.

I jumpered Up
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc Up Down. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 14
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 12
Again, two keys when only one is depressed.

I jumpered Down
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc Up Down. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 14
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 13
Nothing added since the ghost Down was already displayed.

I jumpered Left
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc Up Down Left Right. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 16
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 14
Again, two keys when only one is depressed.

I jumpered Right
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc Up Down Left Right. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 16
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 15
Nothing added since the ghost Right was already displayed.

I jumpered Alt
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc Up Down Left Right. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 16
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 16
Nothing added since the ghost Alt was already displayed.

At this point, I removed all the jumpers, closed KeyScan, and repeated the test, this time using GhostKey.  I only ran down to about Button 6 and stopped because I was getting IDENTICAL results.

At this point, about the only positive thing I can say about the encoder (other than the compact size and the clearly labeled inputs) is "At least I didn't pay for it, and hopefully my experience tonight will keep others from getting RIPPED OFF.  (Oh, and I guess it could be okay for a small jukebox controller, as it seems to work fine as long as you don't press more than two simultaneous inputs)."

CLOSING/SPECULATION:  I did NOT actually use a multimeter or map out the matrix, but we can infer some things.  Looking at the PCB, it appears that every other pin on each row of the IDE header goes to a common trace.  This and the predictable behavior above (i.e. I could tell that adding a jumper would add the intended and the NEXT sequential input), I can say that the unit BEHAVES exactly like the matrix was simply laid out by adding the inputs in order:   Up is Row 1, Column 1, Down is Row 1, Column 2, Left is Row 2, Column 1, Right is Row 2, Column 2, Button 1 is Row 3, Column 1, etc.  This is disappointing, as the theories for adding diodes to prevent ghosting, or even for laying out the matrix to minimize it without using diodes have been around for years, but Mattp apparently chose not to avail himself of them.  What it also means is it should be possible (not verified (yet)) to hook up a joystick and the Button 1, Button 3, Button 5, Button 7, 1P Start, and Coin 1 inputs as ACTION keys (after reprogramming) and have no ghosting with these keys.  You would still have ghosting with the remaining keys, but this MIGHT be acceptable for a single player SF panel.

DISCLAIMER:  Normally, I would say that my results may not be indicative of the results others may expect, YMMV, and that it is possible that some type of hardware conflict, background running software, damage in transit, voltage spike, etc. may have influenced my findings.  In this case I am hesitant to do so, b/c everything I see points to the behavior of a matrix mode encoder with no diodes.  Add to this the fact that we have reluctant (I wonder why?) statements by Mattp that the unit uses an 8x2 matrix, does not use diodes, <cough>  does not produce ghosting <cough>, and . . . well, let's just say this unit waddles, quacks, flies, sleeps, and yes, especially poos like a duck, ermmn, poorly implemented matrix mode encoder.  I welcome anyone else with one of these to repeat my test and post results here.  I also welcome commentary on any reasons the test may not have been accurate, although I can't think of any.

[paigeoliver]

Craptastic!!

I sure am glad the one I was bidding on got VeRO'd by mamedev. At least one good thing came out of that mess, it kept me from wasting any money on that garbage.

[KenToad]

I feel sorry for anyone who may not be fortunate enough to see your review, Tiger-Heli, before considering purchasing one of these encoders as an alternative to Andy's or Randy's.  Good work, a very informative review.

Cheers,
KenToad

[JoyMonkey]

Wow! So basically, the only safe place to use one of these is in a cocktail or alternating upright with a 4-way stick and one fire button. How many emu-cabs have you seen like that?
I think even my poorly hacked keyboards had less ghosting than this thing.

[Tiger-Heli]

Wow! So basically, the only safe place to use one of these is in a cocktail or alternating upright with a 4-way stick and one fire button. How many emu-cabs have you seen like that?
I think even my poorly hacked keyboards had less ghosting than this thing.

JoyMonkey - I think you can get a working SF layout out of this (with ghosting of the coin keys), but then again, you should be able to get 6 buttons and a joystick out of an 8x2 matrix.  You should be able to do this without re-programming the unit and using inputs labelled Coin 1 and 1P Start re-programmed to Z and X as action keys, but you can't.  Even with the advertised 16 discrete inputs, I posted previously that the unit would not perform as well as a good keyboard hack (which can get 12 action keys plus two joysticks, plus unlimited admin keys that will cause ghosting), but the KB16 gives you a LOT less than the advertised 16 non-ghosting inputs.

Edit: Later confirmed that you can get a SF layout to work, but you have to re-map inputs and will still have ghosting with the admin keys.

[nostrebor]

Thanks Tiger-Heli for taking the time to do a proper and thorough review of the TOKN kb16.

It is as I suspected. Of course we have to remember that it still has uses outside of arcade controls. It is just a terrible choice for the button mashing crowd

It is ironic though. Because of mattp's evasion and double talk, the fire stayed lit, and now there is no doubt about his product. A few simple truthful answers might have kept his encoder in play.

[Chris]

Incredible.

I can get 14 or 16 (can't remember which right now) unghosted inputs out of the keyboard that drives my cabinet. I can't understand why anyone would design a chip this way.

[jjd]

It's kindof sad to make this my first post, but...


I am the 'proud' owner of a Tokn KB32 encoder and your test results concern me.   I havn't had the time to get the KB32 installed in my CP, so I haven't been able to test it yet. 

As I read the review, I couldn't tell if you were running jumpers to each of the common connections on the PCB.  I may be fishing here, but could that have contributed to the ghosting in some way?  I don't have any technical rationale for that question, I'm just curious. 

I read everything available on the product before I bid on it (which was scarce) and decided that I would only buy it if I could get it considerably cheaper than other alternatives.  Since I paid less than $25 for the 32 input version, I thought I had made a decent purchase.   I hope it works out, but at least I'm not out significant bucks for the thing. 

I also just checked the Tokn spec sheet on the KB16 and it very cleary says that it does not ghost keys.  I hope to test it this weekend, and I will report my results.  If it turns out that when correctly attached and used as intended that ghosting occurs, I will be a very unsatisfied customer.  I will withhold final judgment until I have a chance to test it.  I hope that the simple connection of all of the grounds makes a difference, but I'm not holding my breath.

Mattp, your comments would be very welcome here.

[Tiger-Heli]

It is ironic though. Because of mattp's evasion and double talk, the fire stayed lit, and now there is no doubt about his product. A few simple truthful answers might have kept his encoder in play.

Not likely.  All I think he could say is it's an 8x2 matrix encoder and you could add diodes to it if you didn't want ghosting.  Wouldn't help his sales much.

[Chris]

It is ironic though. Because of mattp's evasion and double talk, the fire stayed lit, and now there is no doubt about his product. A few simple truthful answers might have kept his encoder in play.

Not likely.

[Tiger-Heli]

It's kindof sad to make this my first post, but...

You aren't Mattp posting under a different name (should I alert Saint?) er, nevermind. . .

I am the 'proud' owner of a Tokn KB32 encoder and your test results concern me.   I havn't had the time to get the KB32 installed in my CP, so I haven't been able to test it yet. 

They concern me as well, but I think they're accurate, feel free to post your results.

As I read the review, I couldn't tell if you were running jumpers to each of the common connections on the PCB.  I may be fishing here, but could that have contributed to the ghosting in some way?  I don't have any technical rationale for that question, I'm just curious. 

It's matrix, so there isn't a common ground connection on the PCB.  The way the device is supposed to be wired is with every other wire on an IDE cable going to NO and COM on a microswitch.  If you trace an IDE cable, this equates to connecting the upper and lower terminals on the IDE header for each switch connection.  This is what the jumpers do.  Since it works flawlessly with a single jumper connected, I think the connection if proper.  Basically, the jumpers simulate a pressed and held closed switch.  And when I connected 3 of them I had problems.  Not good signs.

Since I paid less than $25 for the 32 input version, I thought I had made a decent purchase.  I hope it works out, but at least I'm not out significant bucks for the thing.

With shipping?  Otherwise, why was this a better purchase than the no-solder KeyWiz Eco2 for like $24.  (Serious question). 

I also just checked the Tokn spec sheet on the KB16 and it very cleary says that it does not ghost keys.

I am well aware of that.  I am also well aware that Mattp originally tried to say it was a scanning two-ground multiplex and not a matrix and only conceded the matrix point when RandyT pointed out that those were the same things.

I hope to test it this weekend, and I will report my results.

Please do.  One caution is to please use a program like Ghostkey or KeyScan for your testing, as a ghost key is an additional input plus the intended ones, so if you are playing MAME and the ghost input is not used, it could easily go un-noticed.  (I.E. - it's not as bad as it seems in real use, but an encoder advertised as 16 inputs, no ghosting, should be expected to deliver this.)

If it turns out that when correctly attached and used as intended that ghosting occurs, I will be a very unsatisfied customer.

I would be too if I paid for it.  Again, the only difference between the jumper and a microswitch (button) attachment is a jumper is constant on and a switch is on-off.

I will withhold final judgment until I have a chance to test it.  I hope that the simple connection of all of the grounds makes a difference, but I'm not holding my breath.

Again, there aren't common grounds, so really nothing to connect like you are suggesting.

Mattp, your comments would be very welcome here.

Only if they are more truthful than past postings have been.

[Bloinkxp]

Tiger-Heli,
That is some great testing!  Very well thought out, and easy for someone like me to read.  Thanks for doing the testing and educating us 

-b

[Tiger-Heli]

Tiger-Heli,
That is some great testing!  Very well thought out, and easy for someone like me to read.  Thanks for doing the testing and educating us 

-b

Thanks.  I was very careful to document everything as I have been accused (only by Mattp) of trying to undermine this product against the KeyWiz.  So it wouldn't do to post "it seems like it generated some extra keys sometimes".  I got identical results from two different keyboard testing programs, so I'm pretty confident of them, but I would encorage and welcome anyone else to run their own tests.

[Peale]

Wow! So basically, the only safe place to use one of these is in a cocktail or alternating upright with a 4-way stick and one fire button. How many emu-cabs have you seen like that?

*raises hand*

But even then the keyboard hack I used shared a common 'ground' with almost all other inputs.  But then, when your only inputs are left, right, fire, p1 start and p2 start, you don't need a lot.

[jjd]

1) I'm not Mattp, just a lurker coming out of the shadows. 

2) I'm definitely not questioning your results.  I'm just curious about the hookup.  I'll connect it as shown on the Tokn wiring diagrams and test it that way.  From what you got and my 'playing' with the PCB, I'm fairly certain that we will get the same results.  I just like to try everything before making up my mind. 

3) I think I paid $23 for the encoder with $7 shipping, so total cost was  $30.  My idea was to make a CP that was easily swappable.   Basically my plan is to put the KB32 in the base of the CP box and wire all the controls on the CP lid.  Swapping out CPs becomes as simple as opening the lid and removing the floppy cables from the KB32.    To swap CPs, put the new CP on the CP box and plug in the new floppy cables.   I also had a spare PS/2 keyboard laying around, so the passthrough was a nice feature.   I hope it works.   

Frankly, if I had known the Eco Keywiz2 came in a no-solder version I probably would have purchased that.  The groovygamegear website doesn't list it, at least not that I can find easily.  Hindsight being 20/20, I probably should have gone with a minipac from Ultimarc.  Ah well. 

4) I will use Ghostkey or Keyscan in my testing.

5) I really hope that Mattp adds some input here.  I have been impressed with the service that I have received so far.  But if it turns out that the statements made in Tokn's official documentation and communications here are false, then we have a major problem.

[Chris]

1) I'm not Mattp, just a lurker coming out of the shadows.

[KenToad]

1) I'm not Mattp, just a lurker coming out of the shadows. 

2) I'm definitely not questioning your results.  I'm just curious about the hookup.  I'll connect it as shown on the Tokn wiring diagrams and test it that way.  From what you got and my 'playing' with the PCB, I'm fairly certain that we will get the same results.  I just like to try everything before making up my mind. 

3) I think I paid $23 for the encoder with $7 shipping, so total cost was  $30.  My idea was to make a CP that was easily swappable.   Basically my plan is to put the KB32 in the base of the CP box and wire all the controls on the CP lid.  Swapping out CPs becomes as simple as opening the lid and removing the floppy cables from the KB32.    To swap CPs, put the new CP on the CP box and plug in the new floppy cables.   I also had a spare PS/2 keyboard laying around, so the passthrough was a nice feature.   I hope it works.   

Frankly, if I had known the Eco Keywiz2 came in a no-solder version I probably would have purchased that.  The groovygamegear website doesn't list it, at least not that I can find easily.  Hindsight being 20/20, I probably should have gone with a minipac from Ultimarc.  Ah well. 

4) I will use Ghostkey or Keyscan in my testing.

5) I really hope that Mattp adds some input here.  I have been impressed with the service that I have received so far.  But if it turns out that the statements made in Tokn's official documentation and communications here are false, then we have a major problem.

Yeah, that sucks to have to make your first two postings on the forum about such a disappointing piece of hardware and a scandal to boot.  I feel for you, man.  I also had the same feeling as Tiger-Heli that you might be Mattp in disguise.  It just seemed so well-timed to chime in with a post that keeps the damning of this encoder in the air for a few moments longer.  Also, as we all know, it's so easy to pretend to be someone you're not on a message board, like if you're defending someone despite all apparent evidence and against the evidence of some of the wisest and most active members.  Anyway, let us know how it turns out and post your project in the Project Announcements.  Welcome and good luck.

Cheers,
KenToad