TOKN KB16 (Tiger-Heli's Testing Complete)

[Tiger-Heli]

This is in relation to my comments in this message (currently locked)  In this reply, I implied that an 8x2 matrix encoder could avoid ghosting without the use of diodes.

Mainly I am posting this as I hate inaccurate comments on the board, and my comments in that particular message confused RandyT (among others), which was an accomplishment in itself.  I re-thought my position and now want to re-state it as follows:

My original theory was incorrect, I don

[nostrebor]

I had considered trying one out in the past. Even bid on several in an attempt to pick one up at a reasonable comparative price point. I would have gone so far as to consider sending one I purchased to someone to test out, if it would have cleared the water on the matter of the matrix. But after the reactions here of mattp, I have decided not to support his product. Trust and respect must be earned, and EBAY feedback alone will not get there in my book.

Randy or Andy will get my $$$ at this point.

[Tiger-Heli]

A matrix-based encoder, in and of itself, isn't a problem.  (It probably won't be as fast as a direct input encoder, but we've been down that road before).

The problem is Mattp initially said it did not use a matrix or diodes, then said it did, but didn't say that it used diodes, so now nobody knows what it really is or isn't (at least I don't).

<Edit> we now know it is an 8x2 encoder with no diodes and with ghosting

[Chris]

Doesn't KevSteele have one of these in his possession?  If so, it should be easy to wire up all the inputs, press them all, release them all and see the results and put this to bed once and for all, shouldn't it?

--Chris

[Voodooray]

Hi.
just to shove my two peneth in.
A major problem i have with the thing is the fact that it is advertised as hot swapable.
If Mattp can show me the part of the IEEE defacto standard that says a PS/2 device is hot swappable i will gladly and publicly retract this gripe.
I have no vested interest in any of his competetors products before i am accused of such. I merely think that this is at best, poor research or at worst, a blatant attempt to deceive people who may be less knowledgeable. i am however sure it is the former.

Voodoo Ray.

[Chris]

If Mattp can show me the part of the IEEE defacto standard that says a PS/2 device is hot swappable i will gladly and publicly retract this gripe.

It is not.

[Tiger-Heli]

Doesn't KevSteele have one of these in his possession?  If so, it should be easy to wire up all the inputs, press them all, release them all and see the results and put this to bed once and for all, shouldn't it?

--Chris

KevSteele's unit is on it's way to me, and that will be one of the first things I will try (after verifying the inputs work individually).

[Tiger-Heli]

<Edit:  For those new to the thread, this was my test to see if all 16 inputs could be used simultaneously and they can't

Test results are in.  Thanks again to KevSteele for getting the unit to me so quickly.

NOTE: Comparisons to the KeyWiz are only because that is what I am familiar with. 

METHODOLOGY:  The test itself is unorthodox, but simple.  I didn't have extra switches around or want to crimp connectors to an IDE cable, so I plan to use motherboard jumpers to simulate switch closures.  I should be able to close all sixteen inputs with no missed or extra keypresses.  If so, the unit passes, as far as I'm concerned.  So let's see what happens.

RESULTS - This unit sucks.  It sucks BAD.  It is obvious that it uses a matrix, and also that it does not use diodes to prevent ghosting nor does it incorporate blocking.  What it does do is exhibit ghosting.  Lots of ghosting.

Before anyone claims I rigged the test b/c I wanted the TOKN to do badly, I actually thought it would do what it claimed.  In fact, I'm surprised, both since $1.60 in diodes should cure the problems, and laying out the matrix better would have made them less noticeable (although it would have made the PCB layout less clean).  (Also, I wrote everything down as I did it, and you can see the review starts much more favorable than it ends).

As it is, I can't recommend this unit for anything and will be giving the unit a negative rating on my review page.  If you picked the inputs carefully, you probably could use half the inputs (an 8 by 1 matrix) with no problems, maybe (maybe not).

Here is how the testing went.

TESTING:  I plugged the KB16 in and started the PC.  The LED on the board flashed a couple of times during boot, then went out.  I re-booted the PC for some non-related reasons and then hot plugged the device in.  The PC speaker made a brief annoying beep and the LED again flashed and went out.

The PC cable jacks seem very tight on the board, but that may just be because it is not bolted down like the KeyWiz is.  They are plastic instead of the metal the KeyWiz uses, though.

I next fired up KeyScan by Digital Genesis.  I like this program because it has a numerical counter for keys depressed.

Next I individually jumpered keys - both to make sure my jumper theory worked, and also to make sure KeyScan was up to the task.  The first time through both the Button 3 (Spacebar) and Button 5 (Z) inputs caused a pull-down menu to appear and KeyScan to beep at me.  I went back to these keys and couldn't get the problem to repeat.

I did some testing with my regular keyboard and found KeyScan really dislikes having the Alt key held down.  I decided to re-program Button 1 to B and Button 2 to N.  This would give me a chance to test the programmability of the board and the pass-thru function.

The Pass-thru seems to be working, I am using it to type this.

I was unable to program the unit.  I didn't bring the documentation with me, and what I thought I remembered reading about programming it failed.  I am not faulting the board until I can verify with the documentation, though.  <edit: I just reviewed the documentation.  I was not pressing the Scroll Lock key first as I was supposed to.  This is probably not a fault with the KB16.>

Back to testing, and here it get's ugly.  (BTW, at this point, I unplugged the keyboard from the pass-thru, so I wasn't re-programming the board accidentally <edit: unnecessarily, as it turns out>.  I also switched to handwriting notes as Word didn't like have a keyboard with stuck keys plugged in).  I decided to save Alt for last since KeyScan doesn't like it.  I then jumpered these keys in sequence, leaving the jumpers in place.

I jumpered Button 1
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 1
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 1
Okay.

I jumpered Button 3
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Space. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 2
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 2
Okay.

I jumpered Button 4
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 4
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 3
Uh-oh - I didn't press Alt.

I jumpered Button 5
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 6
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 4
Uh-oh - This is starting to look REAL bad.

I jumpered Button 6
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 6
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 5
Nothing added since the "ghost" X was already displayed.

I jumpered Button 7
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 8
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 6
Again, two keys added when only one is depressed.

I jumpered Button 8
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 8
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 7
Nothing added since the ghost V was already displayed.

I jumpered 1P Start
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 10
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 8
Again, two keys added when only one is depressed.

I jumpered 2P Start
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 10
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 9
Nothing added since the ghost 2 was already displayed.

I jumpered Coin 1
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 12
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 10
Again, two keys added when only one is depressed.  Not a good situation when a coin entry can generate a ghosted Esc depress.

I jumpered Escape
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 12
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 11
Nothing added since the ghost Esc was already displayed.

I jumpered Up
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc Up Down. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 14
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 12
Again, two keys when only one is depressed.

I jumpered Down
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc Up Down. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 14
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 13
Nothing added since the ghost Down was already displayed.

I jumpered Left
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc Up Down Left Right. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 16
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 14
Again, two keys when only one is depressed.

I jumpered Right
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc Up Down Left Right. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 16
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 15
Nothing added since the ghost Right was already displayed.

I jumpered Alt
Keyscan keys displayed: Ctrl Alt Space Shift Z X C V 1 2 5 Esc Up Down Left Right. 
KeyScan Number of Keys Depressed: 16
Actual Number of Keys Depressed: 16
Nothing added since the ghost Alt was already displayed.

At this point, I removed all the jumpers, closed KeyScan, and repeated the test, this time using GhostKey.  I only ran down to about Button 6 and stopped because I was getting IDENTICAL results.

At this point, about the only positive thing I can say about the encoder (other than the compact size and the clearly labeled inputs) is "At least I didn't pay for it, and hopefully my experience tonight will keep others from getting RIPPED OFF.  (Oh, and I guess it could be okay for a small jukebox controller, as it seems to work fine as long as you don't press more than two simultaneous inputs)."

CLOSING/SPECULATION:  I did NOT actually use a multimeter or map out the matrix, but we can infer some things.  Looking at the PCB, it appears that every other pin on each row of the IDE header goes to a common trace.  This and the predictable behavior above (i.e. I could tell that adding a jumper would add the intended and the NEXT sequential input), I can say that the unit BEHAVES exactly like the matrix was simply laid out by adding the inputs in order:   Up is Row 1, Column 1, Down is Row 1, Column 2, Left is Row 2, Column 1, Right is Row 2, Column 2, Button 1 is Row 3, Column 1, etc.  This is disappointing, as the theories for adding diodes to prevent ghosting, or even for laying out the matrix to minimize it without using diodes have been around for years, but Mattp apparently chose not to avail himself of them.  What it also means is it should be possible (not verified (yet)) to hook up a joystick and the Button 1, Button 3, Button 5, Button 7, 1P Start, and Coin 1 inputs as ACTION keys (after reprogramming) and have no ghosting with these keys.  You would still have ghosting with the remaining keys, but this MIGHT be acceptable for a single player SF panel.

DISCLAIMER:  Normally, I would say that my results may not be indicative of the results others may expect, YMMV, and that it is possible that some type of hardware conflict, background running software, damage in transit, voltage spike, etc. may have influenced my findings.  In this case I am hesitant to do so, b/c everything I see points to the behavior of a matrix mode encoder with no diodes.  Add to this the fact that we have reluctant (I wonder why?) statements by Mattp that the unit uses an 8x2 matrix, does not use diodes, <cough>  does not produce ghosting <cough>, and . . . well, let's just say this unit waddles, quacks, flies, sleeps, and yes, especially poos like a duck, ermmn, poorly implemented matrix mode encoder.  I welcome anyone else with one of these to repeat my test and post results here.  I also welcome commentary on any reasons the test may not have been accurate, although I can't think of any.

[paigeoliver]

Craptastic!!

I sure am glad the one I was bidding on got VeRO'd by mamedev. At least one good thing came out of that mess, it kept me from wasting any money on that garbage.

[KenToad]

I feel sorry for anyone who may not be fortunate enough to see your review, Tiger-Heli, before considering purchasing one of these encoders as an alternative to Andy's or Randy's.  Good work, a very informative review.

Cheers,
KenToad

[JoyMonkey]

Wow! So basically, the only safe place to use one of these is in a cocktail or alternating upright with a 4-way stick and one fire button. How many emu-cabs have you seen like that?
I think even my poorly hacked keyboards had less ghosting than this thing.

[Tiger-Heli]

Wow! So basically, the only safe place to use one of these is in a cocktail or alternating upright with a 4-way stick and one fire button. How many emu-cabs have you seen like that?
I think even my poorly hacked keyboards had less ghosting than this thing.

JoyMonkey - I think you can get a working SF layout out of this (with ghosting of the coin keys), but then again, you should be able to get 6 buttons and a joystick out of an 8x2 matrix.  You should be able to do this without re-programming the unit and using inputs labelled Coin 1 and 1P Start re-programmed to Z and X as action keys, but you can't.  Even with the advertised 16 discrete inputs, I posted previously that the unit would not perform as well as a good keyboard hack (which can get 12 action keys plus two joysticks, plus unlimited admin keys that will cause ghosting), but the KB16 gives you a LOT less than the advertised 16 non-ghosting inputs.

Edit: Later confirmed that you can get a SF layout to work, but you have to re-map inputs and will still have ghosting with the admin keys.

[nostrebor]

Thanks Tiger-Heli for taking the time to do a proper and thorough review of the TOKN kb16.

It is as I suspected. Of course we have to remember that it still has uses outside of arcade controls. It is just a terrible choice for the button mashing crowd

It is ironic though. Because of mattp's evasion and double talk, the fire stayed lit, and now there is no doubt about his product. A few simple truthful answers might have kept his encoder in play.

[Chris]

Incredible.

I can get 14 or 16 (can't remember which right now) unghosted inputs out of the keyboard that drives my cabinet. I can't understand why anyone would design a chip this way.

[jjd]

It's kindof sad to make this my first post, but...


I am the 'proud' owner of a Tokn KB32 encoder and your test results concern me.   I havn't had the time to get the KB32 installed in my CP, so I haven't been able to test it yet. 

As I read the review, I couldn't tell if you were running jumpers to each of the common connections on the PCB.  I may be fishing here, but could that have contributed to the ghosting in some way?  I don't have any technical rationale for that question, I'm just curious. 

I read everything available on the product before I bid on it (which was scarce) and decided that I would only buy it if I could get it considerably cheaper than other alternatives.  Since I paid less than $25 for the 32 input version, I thought I had made a decent purchase.   I hope it works out, but at least I'm not out significant bucks for the thing. 

I also just checked the Tokn spec sheet on the KB16 and it very cleary says that it does not ghost keys.  I hope to test it this weekend, and I will report my results.  If it turns out that when correctly attached and used as intended that ghosting occurs, I will be a very unsatisfied customer.  I will withhold final judgment until I have a chance to test it.  I hope that the simple connection of all of the grounds makes a difference, but I'm not holding my breath.

Mattp, your comments would be very welcome here.

[Tiger-Heli]

It is ironic though. Because of mattp's evasion and double talk, the fire stayed lit, and now there is no doubt about his product. A few simple truthful answers might have kept his encoder in play.

Not likely.  All I think he could say is it's an 8x2 matrix encoder and you could add diodes to it if you didn't want ghosting.  Wouldn't help his sales much.

[Chris]

It is ironic though. Because of mattp's evasion and double talk, the fire stayed lit, and now there is no doubt about his product. A few simple truthful answers might have kept his encoder in play.

Not likely.

[Tiger-Heli]

It's kindof sad to make this my first post, but...

You aren't Mattp posting under a different name (should I alert Saint?) er, nevermind. . .

I am the 'proud' owner of a Tokn KB32 encoder and your test results concern me.   I havn't had the time to get the KB32 installed in my CP, so I haven't been able to test it yet. 

They concern me as well, but I think they're accurate, feel free to post your results.

As I read the review, I couldn't tell if you were running jumpers to each of the common connections on the PCB.  I may be fishing here, but could that have contributed to the ghosting in some way?  I don't have any technical rationale for that question, I'm just curious. 

It's matrix, so there isn't a common ground connection on the PCB.  The way the device is supposed to be wired is with every other wire on an IDE cable going to NO and COM on a microswitch.  If you trace an IDE cable, this equates to connecting the upper and lower terminals on the IDE header for each switch connection.  This is what the jumpers do.  Since it works flawlessly with a single jumper connected, I think the connection if proper.  Basically, the jumpers simulate a pressed and held closed switch.  And when I connected 3 of them I had problems.  Not good signs.

Since I paid less than $25 for the 32 input version, I thought I had made a decent purchase.  I hope it works out, but at least I'm not out significant bucks for the thing.

With shipping?  Otherwise, why was this a better purchase than the no-solder KeyWiz Eco2 for like $24.  (Serious question). 

I also just checked the Tokn spec sheet on the KB16 and it very cleary says that it does not ghost keys.

I am well aware of that.  I am also well aware that Mattp originally tried to say it was a scanning two-ground multiplex and not a matrix and only conceded the matrix point when RandyT pointed out that those were the same things.

I hope to test it this weekend, and I will report my results.

Please do.  One caution is to please use a program like Ghostkey or KeyScan for your testing, as a ghost key is an additional input plus the intended ones, so if you are playing MAME and the ghost input is not used, it could easily go un-noticed.  (I.E. - it's not as bad as it seems in real use, but an encoder advertised as 16 inputs, no ghosting, should be expected to deliver this.)

If it turns out that when correctly attached and used as intended that ghosting occurs, I will be a very unsatisfied customer.

I would be too if I paid for it.  Again, the only difference between the jumper and a microswitch (button) attachment is a jumper is constant on and a switch is on-off.

I will withhold final judgment until I have a chance to test it.  I hope that the simple connection of all of the grounds makes a difference, but I'm not holding my breath.

Again, there aren't common grounds, so really nothing to connect like you are suggesting.

Mattp, your comments would be very welcome here.

Only if they are more truthful than past postings have been.

[Bloinkxp]

Tiger-Heli,
That is some great testing!  Very well thought out, and easy for someone like me to read.  Thanks for doing the testing and educating us 

-b

[Tiger-Heli]

Tiger-Heli,
That is some great testing!  Very well thought out, and easy for someone like me to read.  Thanks for doing the testing and educating us 

-b

Thanks.  I was very careful to document everything as I have been accused (only by Mattp) of trying to undermine this product against the KeyWiz.  So it wouldn't do to post "it seems like it generated some extra keys sometimes".  I got identical results from two different keyboard testing programs, so I'm pretty confident of them, but I would encorage and welcome anyone else to run their own tests.

[SirPeale]

Wow! So basically, the only safe place to use one of these is in a cocktail or alternating upright with a 4-way stick and one fire button. How many emu-cabs have you seen like that?

*raises hand*

But even then the keyboard hack I used shared a common 'ground' with almost all other inputs.  But then, when your only inputs are left, right, fire, p1 start and p2 start, you don't need a lot.

[jjd]

1) I'm not Mattp, just a lurker coming out of the shadows. 

2) I'm definitely not questioning your results.  I'm just curious about the hookup.  I'll connect it as shown on the Tokn wiring diagrams and test it that way.  From what you got and my 'playing' with the PCB, I'm fairly certain that we will get the same results.  I just like to try everything before making up my mind. 

3) I think I paid $23 for the encoder with $7 shipping, so total cost was  $30.  My idea was to make a CP that was easily swappable.   Basically my plan is to put the KB32 in the base of the CP box and wire all the controls on the CP lid.  Swapping out CPs becomes as simple as opening the lid and removing the floppy cables from the KB32.    To swap CPs, put the new CP on the CP box and plug in the new floppy cables.   I also had a spare PS/2 keyboard laying around, so the passthrough was a nice feature.   I hope it works.   

Frankly, if I had known the Eco Keywiz2 came in a no-solder version I probably would have purchased that.  The groovygamegear website doesn't list it, at least not that I can find easily.  Hindsight being 20/20, I probably should have gone with a minipac from Ultimarc.  Ah well. 

4) I will use Ghostkey or Keyscan in my testing.

5) I really hope that Mattp adds some input here.  I have been impressed with the service that I have received so far.  But if it turns out that the statements made in Tokn's official documentation and communications here are false, then we have a major problem.

[Chris]

1) I'm not Mattp, just a lurker coming out of the shadows.

[KenToad]

1) I'm not Mattp, just a lurker coming out of the shadows. 

2) I'm definitely not questioning your results.  I'm just curious about the hookup.  I'll connect it as shown on the Tokn wiring diagrams and test it that way.  From what you got and my 'playing' with the PCB, I'm fairly certain that we will get the same results.  I just like to try everything before making up my mind. 

3) I think I paid $23 for the encoder with $7 shipping, so total cost was  $30.  My idea was to make a CP that was easily swappable.   Basically my plan is to put the KB32 in the base of the CP box and wire all the controls on the CP lid.  Swapping out CPs becomes as simple as opening the lid and removing the floppy cables from the KB32.    To swap CPs, put the new CP on the CP box and plug in the new floppy cables.   I also had a spare PS/2 keyboard laying around, so the passthrough was a nice feature.   I hope it works.   

Frankly, if I had known the Eco Keywiz2 came in a no-solder version I probably would have purchased that.  The groovygamegear website doesn't list it, at least not that I can find easily.  Hindsight being 20/20, I probably should have gone with a minipac from Ultimarc.  Ah well. 

4) I will use Ghostkey or Keyscan in my testing.

5) I really hope that Mattp adds some input here.  I have been impressed with the service that I have received so far.  But if it turns out that the statements made in Tokn's official documentation and communications here are false, then we have a major problem.

Yeah, that sucks to have to make your first two postings on the forum about such a disappointing piece of hardware and a scandal to boot.  I feel for you, man.  I also had the same feeling as Tiger-Heli that you might be Mattp in disguise.  It just seemed so well-timed to chime in with a post that keeps the damning of this encoder in the air for a few moments longer.  Also, as we all know, it's so easy to pretend to be someone you're not on a message board, like if you're defending someone despite all apparent evidence and against the evidence of some of the wisest and most active members.  Anyway, let us know how it turns out and post your project in the Project Announcements.  Welcome and good luck.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

Wow! So basically, the only safe place to use one of these is in a cocktail or alternating upright with a 4-way stick and one fire button. How many emu-cabs have you seen like that?

*raises hand*

Now who's improperly using the <me> tag. 

But even then the keyboard hack I used shared a common 'ground' with almost all other inputs.  But then, when your only inputs are left, right, fire, p1 start and p2 start, you don't need a lot.

Common ground is not an issue (although that is a sure way to avoid ghosting.).  And yes, if you only have 5 inputs and only play 5 input games, ghost keys that are generated don't matter much.

[jjd]

Yeah, that sucks to have to make your first two postings on the forum about such a disappointing piece of hardware and a scandal to boot.  I feel for you, man.  I also had the same feeling as Tiger-Heli that you might be Mattp in disguise.  It just seemed so well-timed to chime in with a post that keeps the damning of this encoder in the air for a few moments longer.  Also, as we all know, it's so easy to pretend to be someone you're not on a message board, like if you're defending someone despite all apparent evidence and against the evidence of some of the wisest and most active members.  Anyway, let us know how it turns out and post your project in the Project Announcements.  Welcome and good luck.

Cheers,
KenToad

Thanks for the welcome, I like to come in with a bang  

As I was hitting the button to send that forst post, I actually thought about people assuming that I was Mattp posting under a different name to defend the product. 

In reality, I applied for a username about a week ago because I wanted to get in on the discussion about MAMEdev pulling auctions.  As someone new to the hobby (or as my wife calls it, the lastest obsession) the developments were pretty important.  All of the auctions that I was watching suddenly dissapeared! 

I'll post what I find and hopefully it will help the next newbie make a more informed decision. 

[Tiger-Heli]

1) I'm not Mattp, just a lurker coming out of the shadows.

As Chris said, I was kidding - although this was a thinly (maybe not enough) veiled reference to Mattp's efforts to get all other negative threads about the TOKN encoders removed by claiming they were anonymously started by his competitors to denigrate the KB16.

 
2) I'm definitely not questioning your results.  I'm just curious about the hookup.  I'll connect it as shown on the Tokn wiring diagrams and test it that way.  From what you got and my 'playing' with the PCB, I'm fairly certain that we will get the same results.  I just like to try everything before making up my mind.

No problem - I just can't see any way that a single jumper works as advertised but multiple one's won't if the connection method is incorrect.  And I know enough about matrix encoders to know what I'm seeing.  I would very much like someone independently to verify what I am seeing, though. 

Swapping out CPs becomes as simple as opening the lid and removing the floppy cables from the KB32.    To swap CPs, put the new CP on the CP box and plug in the new floppy cables.   

You could do that with the Eco2 with a single HD cable rather than dual floppy cables. 

I also had a spare PS/2 keyboard laying around, so the passthrough was a nice feature.   I hope it works.

At least the pass-thru seemed to work fine.  <edit: Much slower than a direct connection, though.

The groovygamegear website doesn't list it, at least not that I can find easily. 

That's why you need to spend all your free time and most of your other time on this board.

Hindsight being 20/20, I probably should have gone with a minipac from Ultimarc.  Ah well. 

The minipac is only 28 inputs, but gives you a trackball and spinner interface.

But if it turns out that the statements made in Tokn's official documentation and communications here are false, then we have a major problem.

Agreed.

[Tiger-Heli]

In reality, I applied for a username about a week ago because I wanted to get in on the discussion about MAMEdev pulling auctions.  As someone new to the hobby (or as my wife calls it, the lastest obsession) the developments were pretty important.  All of the auctions that I was watching suddenly dissapeared! 

The developments are important, but not for the reasons you are thinking.  Your auctions will still be there, you just need to search on item and description now.

OTOH, do yourself a favor and download the latest MAME binary, the latest MAME source, the compiling tools (or your favorite binary with the latest tweaks that you want put in), and obtain a complete set of ROMS (or at least all the ones that interest you).

I don't have any inside information, but you will likely thank me later.  As Dylan used to say "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".

[jjd]

The developments are important, but not for the reasons you are thinking.  Your auctions will still be there, you just need to search on item and description now.

OTOH, do yourself a favor and download the latest MAME binary, the latest MAME source, the compiling tools (or your favorite binary with the latest tweaks that you want put in), and obtain a complete set of ROMS (or at least all the ones that interest you).

I don't have any inside information, but you will likely thank me later.  As Dylan used to say "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".

I've been lurking around here and mame.net for months.  I put on my rain gear weeks ago 

[KevSteele]

Wow, Tiger -- that's pretty nasty stuff, and exposes some serious flaws in my "joystick + 5 buttons" test. Now I'm curious why I didn't get the "phantom Alt" key problem (or any ghosting, for that matter) in my testing.

EDIT: Now I'm wondering if it was the specific leads I chose for testing that led to a lack of ghosting. This could have been another lucky combination of buttons on my part, but I really want to know for certain.

jjd, please test out your TOKN32 encoder and report back. If we can confirm this behaviour on a second unit I'm going to update my review to reflect this.

Kevin

[Tiger-Heli]

Wow, Tiger -- that's pretty nasty stuff, and exposes some serious flaws in my "joystick + 5 buttons" test. Now I'm curious why I didn't get the "phantom Alt" key problem (or any ghosting, for that matter) in my testing.

Thanks again for allowing me to test the encoder.  I am curious about that too.  I had a theory prior to testing that Mattp set-up the matrix in such a way that the joystick and Button inputs 1-5 would not produce ghosting, but that wasn't borne out by my testing.

Just to clarify - phantom Alt.  I had two problems, one was with KeyScan not liking the Alt key held down, the other was with Alt (and lots of other keys) showing as depressed when it wasn't.

The only thing I can think of is that the "ghost" keys are likely keys that you were using.  I.e., you pressed (for example, not sure this would happen) Ctrl, ALT, and SPACE and got a ghost L Shift, but not a 1 or a 5, or a PgDn, so if you weren't tracking which buttons you had pressed, you didn't notice the phantom keys appearing.  This seems unlikely, though.  Is it possible?

jjd, please test out your TOKN32 encoder and report back. If we can confirm this behaviour on a second unit I'm going to update my review to reflect this.

I appreciate that.  Just want to play devil's advocate and point out that jjd has a KB32, not a KB16, so it may not experience ghosting in the same fashion (although it probably will).

[monkeybomb]

Tiger I bought one cuz I have to check it out for myself and I have a very simple aplication.  I got the unit for well under the no solder eco and I need the key pass through.  I just want 1 joystick and 3 buttons - no admin.  Should I use the default keys or do you reccomend using different inputs.

[KevSteele]

Tiger,

Looking at the photos, the TOKN32 looks like two TOKN16 boards "squished" together, so I would suspect that it's the equivalent of two TOKN16 boards daisy-chained (a feature that is supported by the TOKN16).

I definitely feel like I dropped the ball by not testing all sixteen inputs simultaneously, but I honestly never even thought it was necessary (I guess I'm spoiled from IPAC and Keywiz testing.) Big screwup on my part, it now appears.

I've emailed Mattp for clarification on this situation.

I've pulled my review temporarily until I can confirm Tiger's findings.

Kevin

[Tiger-Heli]

Tiger I bought one cuz I have to check it out for myself and I have a very simple aplication.  I got the unit for well under the no solder eco and I need the key pass through.  I just want 1 joystick and 3 buttons - no admin.  Should I use the default keys or do you reccomend using different inputs.

I assume you mean you bought it and are waiting for it to arrive.  If so, please verify my results when it does.

So far, all I did was spend an hour with it to see if it will do what it says and found out it wouldn't.

What I suspect you will want to do is reprogram Button 3 to L Alt, Button 5 to Space and wire your buttons to Button 1, Button 3, and Button 5, but this is just supposition on my part based on how the matrix appeared in my testing.

I will likely test this out and verify it for you tonight.

<edit> Now verified - this is what you will need to do!

[jjd]

Well, in a joystick setup, all 16 inputs could never really be used at the same time, could they?   

I think your joystick plus buttons is a good 'functional' test and I used it as advice in my decision to purchase.  As much as I am/will be upset if there is a ghosting problem, I will be OK (for lack of a better word) if the product functions adequately for my purposes. 

I will hook the KB32 up to a full compliment of inputs on a 2-player CP and mash button combinations in a quasi-scientific manner.  If it's not techincally possible to have inputs to all 4 joystick inputs at the same time, I don't know that I can reproduce that part of the experiment, but I will try to work all possible button press/joystick motion combinations into the test.   If I get extra key presses, I will report them.   

[Tiger-Heli]

Looking at the photos, the TOKN32 looks like two TOKN16 boards "squished" together, so I would suspect that it's the equivalent of two TOKN16 boards daisy-chained (a feature that is supported by the TOKN16).

I agree it "looks like" two KB16's squished together and it "probably" works the same.  I also know Mattp could have remapped the matrix when he made the new product.

Mainly I didn't want to have jjd report that the ghosting occurred on different keys or didn't occur and have that appear to invalidate my test, but if MonkeyBomb tests his KB16 also, we can get a pretty good consensus.

I definitely feel like I dropped the ball by on not testing all sixteen inputs simultaneously, but I honestly never even thought it was necessary (I guess I'm spoiled from IPAC and Keywiz testing.) Big screwup on my part, it now appears.

Well, on the other hand, I was a little obsessive in expecting all 16 inputs to work, but I initially found ghosting with 3 buttons and no joystick inputs connected, so I'm not sure how you missed it.  Seems odd to me.

I've emailed Mattp for clarification on this situation.

Given previous statements, I suspect he'll say the unit works fine and I'm making stuff up to help RandyT.

I'm going to be pulling my review temporarily until I can confirm Tiger's findings.

Thanks!

[Tiger-Heli]

Well, in a joystick setup, all 16 inputs could never really be used at the same time, could they?

Technically, in a joystick set-up, Up and Down or Right and Left cannot be pressed simultaneously and you cannot do this on a KeyWiz encoder either, but RandyT does mention this.  I was seeing ghost inputs with 3 buttons depressed and no joysticks.  I would have cut the KB16 a lot of slack if it functioned as a Joystick and 12 buttons encoder, even though it was not marketed that way. 

I will hook the KB32 up to a full compliment of inputs on a 2-player CP and mash button combinations in a quasi-scientific manner.  If it's not techincally possible to have inputs to all 4 joystick inputs at the same time, I don't know that I can reproduce that part of the experiment, but I will try to work all possible button press/joystick motion combinations into the test.   If I get extra key presses, I will report them.   

Sounds good to me.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Based on comments from Mattp, and the features he plays up in his posts, I would guess that this device was originally DESIGNED for use in a "casino" application, and was reworked to output MAME standard keys when a side market was seen for it.

EEPROM and brownout protection are necessities in casino applications.

If the encoder were wired specifically for such an application, it should be possible to workaround the ghosting issues.

[Tiger-Heli]

Eureka!!!!! HOT DOG!!!!!  I finally figured this puppy out.  Right now, I feel pretty proud of myself b/c I know exactly what is going on with the unit, and it was a tough egg to crack, and I did it all on my own.  The mystery is 95% solved.  Read on!

First off, forget everything I said previously about the unit.  My previous comments are accurate, but will end up being irrelevant.

HOT-SWAPPABILITY - when I first started the PC and hot-plugged in the KB16, the PC immediately went into suspend or shut down mode (monitor went black, CPU fan shut off, but PS fan was running).  I shut off (rear switch) the PS, unplugged it, plugged it back in and re-booted and everything seems to be okay.  The PS/2 spec does not officially support hot-swapping, but I never had this happen with the KeyWiz, perhaps it could and I

[Tiger-Heli]

FOLLOW-UP:  The method I posted was empirically verified for the 1P six button scenario (I got 8 inputs and no ghosting in any of the inputs, but it is overly restrictive.

What I essentially did was allow the joystick opposite directionals (JOD) to ghost and then pick inputs from Column A only.

The real requirement is that only one input is used per row unless it is a JOD in which case only two are allowed.

So, ASSuMEing my matrix is correct (big guess at this point), my six action buttons should be able to be:
Button 1 or Button 2 (but not both)
Button 3 or Button 4 (but not both)
Button 5 or Button 6 (but not both)
Button 7 or Button 8 (but not both)
1P Start or 2P Start (but not both)
Coin 1 or Escape (but not both)

This is just theory at this point, though!

[Tiger-Heli]

FINAL TESTING COMPLETE (unless I get bored . . . )

PROGRAMMING REVISITED:  I figured out how to program the unit, and it works well once you get the hang of it.  Mattp

[SirPeale]

Now who's improperly using the <me> tag. 

That's because that's not the <me> tag, that's just a symbol of the gesture I'm making.

[Tiger-Heli]

Now who's improperly using the <me> tag. 

That's because that's not the <me> tag, that's just a symbol of the gesture I'm making.

Yes, but shouldn't the tag have been used so it said:

* Peale raises hand!

?  Mainly I'm just razzing you back, though!

[SirPeale]

Yes, but I didn't speak of myself in the third like you did.  I just gestured. 

[saint]

Now now, this is a family forum - mind those gestures!

Yes, but I didn't speak of myself in the third like you did.  I just gestured. 

[timsteward]

First time posting here.
I just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth.
The tokn 16 encoder I use has never messed up once.
The program on the fly option is the formost reason I started buying them.
I use them on classic arcade machine that the boards have went out and it cost so much to repair them, it just makes it easier to replace a computer power supply or hard drive if it goes bad than try and replace the old PCB on the arcade machine.
I have gotten nothing but great customer service from the folks at tokn.
The price is awesome with the flat rate shipping on multiple items.
I have used the I-Pac as well and like it.
But for the money and the program option I am sticking with the tokn16.
Thanks for listenting.
Tim

[monkeybomb]

Tim - What exactly is the application you are using them for, and how many buttons are simultaneously pressed?

[Tiger-Heli]

The tokn 16 encoder I use has never messed up once.

I appreciate your input, but I would like to speculate for everyone else.  Most likely - You have never NOTICED that the KB16 messed up once.  There is a difference.  Let's say you put this in a GunSmoke cab.  You mash Button 1, Button 2, and Button 3.  The TOKN also sends a Button 4 keypress.  No Problem - GunSmoke only uses 3 buttons.  Or in a 1942 cab, your only potential problems would be if Button 1 and Button 2 were pressed at the same time, and the game will rarely require this (if ever).

The program on the fly option is the formost reason I started buying them.

This seems hard to believe.  When would you use it?  If it truly works as advertised like you say and you are using it for MAME, you should be able to just wire it up and not program it at all.  If you are doing what I suggested and re-assigning inputs to avoid ghosting, than it is necessary, but you can do the same exact thing with an I-PAC.  (And programming a KeyWiz is pretty easy, but you will need to launch the KeyWiz software at start-up if you use a non-default codeset.

[Tiger-Heli]

Some more thoughts:

I have actually enjoyed testing the KB16 encoder.  It is basically somewhat less than half of a keyboard hack, but programmable so you can select the default MAME keys.  Since I am familiar with keyboard hacks, it is interesting seeing how the device works and what its limitations are.  (After all, anyone can wire up an I-PAC to the default keys and plug it in and play with no thought whatsoever, how is that fun?).  As far as design of a matrix based keyboard encoder, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best, I would give the KB16 about a 2.0 on the maturity and robustness scale.  Details on that below, first some definitions:

Ghosting:  When three keys that form a rectangle on the matrix are depressed, the input that completes the matrix may also be triggered.  The KB16 demonstrates this in that if you depress Buttons 1, 2, and 3, the Button 4 output is also generated.

Blocking:  Blocking is a firmware fix for the ghosting problem.  It is very common in modern keyboards.  It is not incorporated on the KB16.  Were it incorporated, then if you depressed and held Button 1 then Button 2, then Button 3, Button 3 would not register as it would generate a ghost Button 4.  Blocking can be either your friend or enemy in a matrix encoder, as I will explain later.

Now these are basically the steps in laying out a well-planned matrix mode encoder (and how I came up with the 2/10 rating) -

Step 1 is determining what keys you can support.  As I have said, an 8x2 matrix works for 1 joystick and six buttons.  Mattp has buttons numbered from 1-8, so either he failed to take this into account or he figured he would allow Buttons 7 and 8 to be included, knowing that they would produce ghosting.  Judging by the rest of the board, my guess is he failed to take this into account.

Step 2 is laying out the matrix to place opposite joystick directionals in the same column on different rows.  Mattp does this, but given his other choices, I think he just took the inputs order from the I-PAC and just added them to the matrix in order.  In other words, I suspect he lucked into this rather than it being a conscious decision.

Step 3 is to assign primary keys to the matrix so that they will not generate ghost inputs when used.  Mattp did not do this, but I have posted before how it can be fixed on the KB16.

Step 4 is to determine whether or not you want the encoder to use blocking.  Mattp chose not to.  Given his choice of layout, this was a good decision, as blocking would have prevented the third button from being pressed with buttons 1 and 2, which would be more annoying than a phantom Button 4.  Had he laid out the matrix more logically, I would recommend blocking.  The reason is the admin keys.  If you are using Esc as one of your admin keys, without blocking, there is a possibility that a coin press, and two action buttons will generate a phantom Escape and end your game.  OTOH, if blocking were incorporated, then the only drawback would be that your admin keys might not register if one particular action key and some other key were depressed at the same time.

Step 5 is to use diodes to prevent all of the ghosting and masking problems altogether.  Mattp did not do this.  It might have been a cost-savings measure, or more likely, he did not understand it well enough to implement it.

Having said all this, I also need to point out that it is much easier to Monday-morning quarterback the finished design than it is to develop it, and I can

[Tiger-Heli]

Just thought that as I point of contrast, I would mention an E-mail exchange I had with the KeyDog support team before adding it to the review, quoting here:

***

TH:  Most matrix-mode encoders will exhibit some form of ghosting, blocking,
or masking if multiple keys are pressed, unless diodes are employed on
the input lines (see http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/ for a
technical explanation of this process).  This would rarely be a problem
for a flight sim, but could be a big deal for an arcade controller,
where it is theoretically possible to activate 16 keys at the same time.
Does the KeyDog prevent ghosting, or is it up to the user to utilize
diodes in their wiring to prevent this?

KD:  In the matrix mode, you need external diodes to implement multi-key rollover.  If the keys pressed use 2 common lines then the diodes are needed.  However if use of the keys is selected so that keys only have common rows, or common columns but cannot have common rows and columns multi key rollover does not require diodes.

***

They meant inhibit rather than implement, but the answers were clear and concise.  Mattp would have done well to follow there example, rather than claiming the unit did not exhibit ghosting, and then claiming it did not use a matrix. . .

[KevSteele]

Just an FYI:

I've revised my review, thanks to another TOKN16 donated by Monkeybomb(thanks, dude!)

http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/tokn16.html

I encountered the same exact problems as Tiger-Heli with this encoder. It's basically useless for MAME (or at least, for any game other than Pac-Man).

Don't have any real excuses, unfortunately: I tried to rush out a couple of reviews and royally screwed up this one. 

Thanks, Tiger - I appreciate the perseverance and testing.

Kevin

[CheffoJeffo]

Was just looking at the TOKN website after reading Kevin's revised review ... is this document new (I don't recall seeing it when I looked before)?

http://toknmedia.com/downloads/toknkb16_readme.pdf

There is a pretty big disclaimer that states the the Ctrl key can not be used in conjunction with any other key and that the P1B1 should be remapped to something other than Ctrl. The document suggests that future revisions to the firmware may correct this problem.

Hmmm.

Cheers.

[KevSteele]

Was just looking at the TOKN website after reading Kevin's revised review ... is this document new (I don't recall seeing it when I looked before)?

http://toknmedia.com/downloads/toknkb16_readme.pdf

There is a pretty big disclaimer that states the the Ctrl key can not be used in conjunction with any other key and that the P1B1 should be remapped to something other than Ctrl. The document suggests that future revisions to the firmware may correct this problem.

Hmmm.

Cheers.

I guess I need to revise my revision to include this detail: I tested with and without the Ctrl key mapped to button 1, and was able to easily reproduce the ghosting with or without the Ctrl key. It made absolutely no difference in the ghosting problem in my testing.

It's amazing to me how many 3-key combos will cause ghosting on this device - I tried all sorts of combos, and I'd guess 75-80% of the three-key combos I used cause ghost keys.

Kevin

[JMDickson]

At this point, I removed all the jumpers, closed KeyScan, and repeated the test, this time using GhostKey.  I only ran down to about Button 6 and stopped because I was getting IDENTICAL results.

Wow, someone is still using that old thing?  If a key counter would be a useful addition, I'm sure I could scrape up the source and add one.  In fact GhostKey is long overdue for a transition to windows... one more project to add to my list.

[KevSteele]

At this point, I removed all the jumpers, closed KeyScan, and repeated the test, this time using GhostKey.

[Tiger-Heli]

Just an FYI:
I've revised my review, thanks to another TOKN16 donated by Monkeybomb(thanks, dude!)
http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/tokn16.html

Kev,

Thanks for updating the review.  It's much more accurate now (IMHO).  One downside is I think you only updated the testing and conclusions, so the intro stuff sounds pretty positive until you get to the end.

I will be formally writing up my conclusions on the unit and adding them to my encoder comparison.

I encountered the same exact problems as Tiger-Heli with this encoder. It's basically useless for MAME (or at least, for any game other than Pac-Man).

Actually, I think that's a little bit harsh, but maybe not uncalled for given the IMHO poor design and deceptive marketing of the unit.

The unit is only supposed to suppport one joystick and 3-4 buttons or 2 joysticks and 2 buttons each.  It CAN do this if you don't wire it up as labelled and if you then re-program it.

My main problem with the unit is that it costs more than some true 32-input encoders, and it is marketed like it will never exhibit ghosting, which it definitely will if you don't use diodes.

(And yes, it does seem ironic to me that I'm here defending the device after Retroblast basically trashed it !!!!) 

[CheffoJeffo]

Thanks for the update (re: Ctrl), Kev.

Cheers.

[Tiger-Heli]

Was just looking at the TOKN website after reading Kevin's revised review ... is this document new (I don't recall seeing it when I looked before)?

http://toknmedia.com/downloads/toknkb16_readme.pdf

There is a pretty big disclaimer that states the the Ctrl key can not be used in conjunction with any other key and that the P1B1 should be remapped to something other than Ctrl. The document suggests that future revisions to the firmware may correct this problem.

Hmmm.

Cheers.

Whoa!!! That's scary in a number of ways.  Mattp sent me a copy of toknkb16_readme.pdf, circa 01 Dec 2004, and it doesn't mention this at all.

It did mention this, which is NOT in the new document:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Known bugs firmware 0301
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Passthrough key sequences of simultaneous shift-ctrl are not received
correctly. As a result KB16 will occasionally not transmit the ctrl
to the PC. This only applies to passthrough and does not affect gameplay.

***

I didn't verify the above, but if MattP mentioned it, it is probably accurate (I don't think he would make up faults to document), and unfortunately, probably still applies to current units.

Anyone who understands a matrix encoder could confirm (as KevSteele has) that the ghosting has nothing to do with the P1B1 assignment.  You can press Button 3, Button4 and Button5 and you will get a phantom Button 6 keypress, so how could P1B1 being assigned to L Ctrl have anything to do with it.

It sounds like Mattp has either read these posts or gotten feedback from customers about the ghosting problems and is trying to put something out to address it.

The part I don't understand is:  Does he REALLY not understand his own product well enough to think that this might be helpful?  Or does he know that it won't make a difference, but figure that people will assume that that is what is causing the ghosting and therefore continue to buy KB16's?

What really frustrates me, as I said earlier, is that all he really needs to do is the same as most other matrix encoder manufacturers do and say that the unit uses an 8x2 matrix and will exhibit ghosting if you don't choose inputs carefully or use diodes.

[Tiger-Heli]

It's amazing to me how many 3-key combos will cause ghosting on this device - I tried all sorts of combos, and I'd guess 75-80% of the three-key combos I used cause ghost keys.

Kevin

Kevin,

It's an 8x2 matrix encoder, which means it can support 1 joystick and six buttons.  Want to have some fun with it?

Wire up the joystick as indicated, and wire a button to Button 1, Button 3, Button 5, Button 7, 1P Start, and Coin 1.  You should be able to press any button in any combination with no ghosting or problems whatsoever.

The downside:  Wire up a button to Escape, and a button to one of the remaining inputs, say Button 2.  Pressing Button 2 (now an admin button), Button 1, and Coin 1 (now action keys) will result in a phantom Esc and end your game.

[Tiger-Heli]

Wow, someone is still using that old thing?  If a key counter would be a useful addition, I'm sure I could scrape up the source and add one.  In fact GhostKey is long overdue for a transition to windows... one more project to add to my list.

Yep, I still like Ghostkey.

BTW, we now have the same problems on 3 units (counting jjd's KB32) using at least 4 software packages, so I think we have a consensus.

[Chris]

The part I don't understand is:

[KevSteele]

Thanks for updating the review.

[Chris]

BTW, you'll all get a kick out of this: check out the "AME Keyboard Encoder" labeling (the missing M is scratched off!)

ROFL!!! MAMEDev(tm) strikes again!   

[Chris]

Hey, didja see this appended to his current eBay auctions?

"In an effort to keep the general public well informed about the speed, performance, and reliability of Tokn Media's line of encoders, we've published the readme doc that is part of the documentation distributed to each paying customer on the toknmedia website. Reading these docs goes a far way in getting the best out of your purchase. Be sure to check it out. 16 simultaneous keypress supported. No ghosting, no delays, no stuck keys. We make this claim in no others terms but absolute. Others won't, other can't. Check one out. Cheers, Mattp Tokn Media"

[Tiger-Heli]

Well, it's an accurate record of my experience: it was positive until I actually tried multiple keypresses, whereupon it all went downhill fast. 

Well okay, if you look at it that way.  My point is I think most visitors to RetroBlast will not realize it was updated and will expect the whole review to have been written after evaluating the product completely.

Interesting we both came to the same conclusion from opposite ends.  You originally like the encoder, and now think it sucks.  If you read through this from the beginning, after initial testing, I thought the unit sucked, and now think it can work for limited applications, but is way over-priced and deceptively marketed.

I realize you can, by jumping through hoops and ignoring the layout, get the joystick + six buttons. But in my mind you shouldn't have to do that: it either works as advertised or it doesn't. I wouldn't recommend this encoder to anyone planning a MAME project when there are better options that are actually cheaper, such as the KeyWiz Ecos.

Agreed, the matrix should be layed out so inputs labelled as action keys don't produce ghosting, or MattP should say you have to use diodes with the encoder.  And in any case, it should be more competitively priced.

If you're going to label outputs "Buttons 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8" on a MAME encoder, I expect to be able to use those buttons.

Agreed.

BTW, you'll all get a kick out of this: check out the "AME Keyboard Encoder" labeling (the missing M is scratched off!)

Now THAT's funny.

[Tiger-Heli]

Hey, didja see this appended to his current eBay auctions?

"In an effort to keep the general public well informed about the speed, performance, and reliability of Tokn Media's line of encoders, we've published the readme doc that is part of the documentation distributed to each paying customer on the toknmedia website. Reading these docs goes a far way in getting the best out of your purchase. Be sure to check it out. 16 simultaneous keypress supported. No ghosting, no delays, no stuck keys. We make this claim in no others terms but absolute. Others won't, other can't. Check one out. Cheers, Mattp Tokn Media"

Un-f'ing believable.  I hadn't seen that.

Technically he's correct, though -    (You can get 16 simultaneous keypresses.)  Of course you get this whenever you press 15 or sometimes 14 keys.  And no one else claims to sell a 16-input encoder without ghosting.  They all claim to (and do) sell 28 or 32 or 56 input encoders that don't do this!!!!

[KevSteele]

Gotta love "the big lie" - the bigger and more absolute you say something, the more likely people will believe it. 

No ghosting? To quote Tiger, Unfrikin' believeable...

Mattp has sent me several emails saying that there is absolutely no ghosting. I've replied that I was able to reproduce Tiger's findings, and that we had three different units showing the same exact behavior.

To quote Mattp:

Kevin,
You can rest assured that we have test fixtures and data to back our claims.
You can also rest assured that there are unqualified individuals out
there creating
their own test fixtures and publishing their own test data without
consent nor the
simplest courtesy of sending an email to Tokn Media addressing their
concerns.
If you personally have developed a test fixture this would be your
starting point.
If you have a simple sketch or drawing, we will gladly inspect it to see
that the wiring
complies with the design concepts behind Tokn Media's encoders.
Any path other than this taken by any parties outside of Tokn Media are
being treated
as wreckless behavior on the part of those individuals.
Best regards,
Mattp
Tokn Media

He's sent me some pretty strange emails recently - weird and kind of frightening rambling, actually.

Kevin

[NoOne=NBA=]

What kind of "test fixture" do you need?

If you hook up Button 1-6, as labelled, you should NOT, under ANY circumstance be able to produce ANY keypress other than a button that is pressed MANUALLY.

This product doesn't do that.
I don't know what they call it at TOKN, but everyone else I know calls it ghosting.
The only way they can claim that there encoders don't ghost is if they developed another, proprietary name for it--like interpolating.

If you press buttons 1/2/3 simultaneously, the encoder will "interpolate" that you really wanted to send a button 4 press as well, and will automatically do it for you.

Randy and Andy really need to get some of their encoders up on ebay, to keep the people that don't know any better from getting worked by this guy.

[jjd]

Gotta love "the big lie" - the bigger and more absolute you say something, the more likely people will believe it. 

No ghosting? To quote Tiger, Unfrikin' believeable...

Mattp has sent me several emails saying that there is absolutely no ghosting. I've replied that I was able to reproduce Tiger's findings, and that we had three different units showing the same exact behavior.

To quote Mattp:

Kevin,
You can rest assured that we have test fixtures and data to back our claims.
You can also rest assured that there are unqualified individuals out
there creating
their own test fixtures and publishing their own test data without
consent nor the
simplest courtesy of sending an email to Tokn Media addressing their
concerns.
If you personally have developed a test fixture this would be your
starting point.
If you have a simple sketch or drawing, we will gladly inspect it to see
that the wiring
complies with the design concepts behind Tokn Media's encoders.
Any path other than this taken by any parties outside of Tokn Media are
being treated
as wreckless behavior on the part of those individuals.
Best regards,
Mattp
Tokn Media

He's sent me some pretty strange emails recently - weird and kind of frightening rambling, actually.

Kevin

Well that tourques me off a bit.  I DID give him the courtesy of sending Mattp an email prior to my testing.  He actually replied and encouraged me to publish my results. 

I guess that is wreckless and unauthorized?? Since when does someone need authorization to review thier experiences with a product anyway?  Wreckless?  I noted very clearly that I wired the encoder exactly as shown and received perfect results when only 1 or 2 inputs were used at the same time. 

I hope that my refund is in my mailbox when I get home next week...

[jjd]

In fact, here is the email that I recieved.  Please note that the email says to feel free to cut and paste to the message board.

Joseph,
>>Thanks for the digging. As a representative for
>>TOKN, I can say clearly
>>state that my intentions are not to misrepresent the
>>product.
>>The alt-key passthru issue and the LED behaviour are
>>described in the release notes readme.txt. These
>>were known and documented from day 1.
>>The scroll lock programming needs a better
>>description, I agree.
>>Once in programming mode via scroll lock, you're in
>>until the next power cycle
>>or replug of the encoder. Not ideal but we're
>>looking at that for the next release. We're also
>>beta-testing the latest code release with a transmit
>>FIFO resize for the KB32 which is something that the
>>KB16 will benefit from.
>>Time to dot the Is and cross the Ts!
>>Here lies the growing pains. The eBay ad description
>>evolved as more users
>>inquired about its capabilities. I will review you
>>findings and see
>>if I agree. I'm open and looking for a better
>>product design in the long run.
>>If it warrants a diode, I'll document as such and
>>likely add it to the respin.
>>Phew! This has been quite a fiasco. Let me take a
>>look.
>>Your input is greatly appreciated and will result in
>>a better product in the
>>long run. Please encourage any other users to chime
>>in on the message board as TOKN has become a target
>>of much scrutiny in the past week.
>>Feel free to cut and paste to the message boards.
>>We're on it, checking it
>>all out. Thank you so much for your assessment. Lil
>>TOKN KB16 is growing
>>and is going to have to tighten up!
>>Cheers,
>>Mattp
>>Tokn Media
>>P.S. ReleaseManagement.pdf coming soon to the
>>website!

[Tiger-Heli]

Well that tourques me off a bit.  I DID give him the courtesy of sending Mattp an email prior to my testing.  He actually replied and encouraged me to publish my results. 

Um, I'm pretty sure he is referring to me - Tiger-Heli here.  FWIW, I probably would have sent him an E-mail, but I wasn't testing the unit until Mattp had basically accused me of purposely trying to denigrate the unit, and had tried to get Saint to pull all info about the units from the message board.  So at that point, I figured I would just help out the BYOAC and if Mattp cared, KevSteele had alerted him to this thread, and he could read it here as easily as in an E-mail from me.

I guess that is wreckless and unauthorized?? Since when does someone need authorization to review thier experiences with a product anyway?  Wreckless?  I noted very clearly that I wired the encoder exactly as shown and received perfect results when only 1 or 2 inputs were used at the same time. 

Again, I think he is referring to the fact that I used jumpers instead of switches to test the unit.  The problem here is that attaching a jumper is IDENTICAL to closing a switch, so if my test fails, then pressing and holding a switch connected in the same way would fail also.

The fact that he's condemning the testing methods rather than trying to address the ghosting concerns in his E-bay ads speaks volumes to me.

I hope that my refund is in my mailbox when I get home next week...

I hope you get a speedy refund also.

[Tiger-Heli]

Summary review of my testing with the KB16 is posted at http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/tokn16/index.htm.  Not much new ground for those who have been following this thread (I did verify that Print Screen and L Ctrl DO WORK with the KB16, despite what Mattp says. . .), but hopefully it's laid out a little more coherently.

Comments welcome!

[KevSteele]

Summary review of my testing with the KB16 is posted at http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/tokn16/index.htm.

[Tiger-Heli]

A very extensive review!

One suggestion - you can change the "pics I stole from RetroBlast" to "pictures compliments of RetroBlast". 

Kevin

Done!  Thanks Kevin - and thanks for allowing me to test the unit.

BTW, something to consider regarding Crazy Cooter's comments in the Ultracade Review thread (I almost posted there, but decided to wait):

Promoting (via review) a persons product supports that person in the industry.

<snip>

Since reviews are essentially commercial advertisements (that's why the stuff is mostly given for free), just stop being a commercial for a company (Ultracade) that is trying everything it can to run the people that actually care about the hobby out of it.

I would like to look at my review in light of the above comments:

I don't feel that I posted anything non-factual about either the product or Mattp in my review.  In fact, the review goes out of it's way to tell people how to get the most out of the KB16.

Is my review a commercial advertisement?  (Well, do you really think people will read my review and be knocking down the doors to buy the TOKN KB16.?)

Does my review support Mattp in the industry - Maybe, maybe not - It does give him a certain level of legitimacy and exposure that he would not otherwise have.  It also provides a lot of insight into things that could change on the KB16 Revision II (if there is one).  OTOH, it also exposes a lot of misleading statements that he probably would prefer were not exposed.

So why write it?

Three reasons - First, if it is not written, people have one less piece of information and will rely on Mattp's advertising statements and E-bay feedback and may get a product that does less than they expected.  Second - the information in the review may help someone at least make a workable panel using the KB16.  Third - Hopefully the information may help change the marketing strategy of Mattp and maybe even the design of the product.

None of this is meant to apply directly to your Ultracade review, but it is something to think about.

[KevSteele]

I agree with your comments, Tiger - I think that a review, good or bad, is more publicly-available information about a product. The more info the better, IMHO.

You've certainly provided a great deal of useful info about the TOKN16. and it would have been a real shame if you had "boycotted" the product because of Mattp's actions.

Kevin

[Tiger-Heli]

The more info the better, IMHO.

The more accurate info the better.  I would not be surprised if TOKN "supporters" don't pop up saying my info is totally inaccurate and the encoder works flawlessly.  This can only muddy the waters and make the situation worse.  I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

it would have been a real shame if you had "boycotted" the product because of Mattp's actions.

Conditionally I agree.  I got the product for free from you, as did you from Mattp, I presume.  I would feel bad if I had paid for it, (even if I wrote the review), if my purchase was helping to sell the product to others, unless I could get my money-back.  (And I'm waiting to see how that plays out for jjd.)

And while I wouldn't have accepted the encoder to review from Mattp unless there was an understanding that anything I discovered (good or bad) would be fair game to include in my review, I would still feel bad about writing negative findings about a product the developer gave me for free.  I would still do it, but I'd feel bad about it.

Also, a certain level of distance is helpful.  I got the unit second-hand and after you had previously reviewed it and after it had been hashed out on the BYOAC forum.  Had I got it directly, there would have probably been a lot more back-and-forth between Mattp and myself - "Matt, my unit is producing ghosting, are they all supposed to, or did I get a bad sample?" - and that interchange usually turns the review more positive.  In fact, as I said, you can kindof see the pendulum in this thread.  My opinions basically went from:

1)  It really doesn't work, to:
2)  It is actually workable for a 1-player 6-button or 2-player, 2 buttons each panel (as long as you change the default inputs and re-program the unit), to:
3)  Okay, you can make it work, but it's a big hassle to do so and even after that it's more expensive than more capable competing products, so why would you bother.)

[KevSteele]

The urge to "soften" a review because of getting a unit for free is an issue I have had to deal with. Some feel my reviews are too soft, but quite often I'm just trying to be fair and point out the good and the bad.

As you yourself know, I have been known to stick to my opinions of a product, even when confronted by the product's creator (or an online rebuttal  )

Most of the time, companies don't submit products unless they're confident of a good review (i.e., they know their product works as advertised). That's why this whole situation with Mattp is such a mystery...

Kevin

[Tiger-Heli]

The urge to "soften" a review because of getting a unit for free is an issue I have had to deal with. Some feel my reviews are too soft, but quite often I'm just trying to be fair and point out the good and the bad.

There is that, but it's not always just that the unit is free.  See this page: http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/nocodeload.htm  I hated  this feature of the KeyWiz, asked for a way to disable it, asked for a version without it, and posted a page about why it was a terrible idea, and how it could (should) be disabled.  RandyT (correctly, I now believe) pointed out that it was realistically only a problem in a 4-player setup, and I never bothered to disable it on my KeyWiz, and have never had a problem with it.

My point is that you always have that dynamic - You don't like something, the developer points out why it's a good idea, and then you have to re-evaluate whether you missed something, or you were correct and he is just trying to put a positive spin on your negative comment.

As you yourself know, I have been known to stick to my opinions of a product, even when confronted by the product's creator (or an online rebuttal  )

I know, not always a good thing.  j/k    BTW, I recently reviewed my re-buttal for SirPoonga, and I stand by it as well, although there are some areas in there where I mis-understood what you were talking about.  My point here is that you need to write carefully and re-read what you have written so it can only be interpreted the way you intended (not that I'm 100 fool-proof on that.  Yes, I know they keep coming out with smarter fools ).

For example, I took "Program via attached keyboard" to mean that you thought it was a feature that the software used a keyboard rather than a mouse for programming the unit.  Andy Warne also thought this was a "feature".

In talking to SirP, I realized you were probably referring to an obscure method of programming the encoder without using software.  This would really only be useful on the I-PAC if you were running it under BEOS or Solaris, as otherwise, you would just use the Mac or Linux programming software.  On the KeyWiz, it would be pretty pointless, because unless you had a dual-boot system, custom settings would not be retained anyways, and with a dual boot system, you could program it through software in Windows and then boot into Solaris.

I think the main problem with your KeyWiz review was you didn't take the time to fully evaluate the product and the implications of some of the design decisions.  That's something I struggled with on the KB16.  For example, I know that, on the KB16, you can choose inputs carefully and avoid ghosting on the action keys.  But I didn't want to unwire my CP and wire in the KB16, so I can't really say whether the response time with multiple keypresses is acceptable for arcade gaming or not.  I think it is, but I don't have hard testing to back it up.

Most of the time, companies don't submit products unless they're confident of a good review (i.e., they know their product works as advertised). That's why this whole situation with Mattp is such a mystery...

Agreed.  I never thought about testing my KeyWiz for ghosting, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't see any.

Did Mattp think that if he said it didn't produce ghosting, everyone would take it at face value and not do any real world testing?  Odd and unknown.

[KevSteele]

I think the main problem with your KeyWiz review was you didn't take the time to fully evaluate the product and the implications of some of the design decisions.

[Tiger-Heli]

I think the main problem with your KeyWiz review was you didn't take the time to fully evaluate the product and the implications of some of the design decisions.

Well, in the end it really boils down to this: compared to the IPAC, Randy's design adds 4 inputs and drops NVRAM, keyboard LEDs, USB, and keyboard passthrough (and no, the switchable input doesn't count, as it's useless IMO). It also has a "hot-swap" ability to change between a user-set key assignment and the MAME set, something you hated but I kinda found to be a nice "trick".

You and Randy feel that the 4 extra inputs are more useful than the NV memory and passthrough. I feel the other way around. At this point it's primarily a difference of opinion, and both encoders are still great for MAME and both work exactly as advertised (unlike the TOKN16, sigh...)

Okay, that's basically it.  There are some subleties and some not so subtleties -

KeyWiz has 32 action inputs, I-PAC has 27 b/c of a difference in shift key implementation.  But this is really only a factor for a four player panel.

Steath shifted keys involve two diodes for the KeyWiz, and an RC circuit for the I-PAC.

Shift operates on keypress on the KeyWiz and key release on the I-PAC.  Without a lot of configuration, Shift requires an extra CP button on the KeyWiz, and can be hidden on the I-PAC.

I-PAC software is available for Linux, Windows, and Mac and I-PAC can be custom programmed and used in any OS that recognizes a PS/2 or USB keyboard.  KeyWiz is pretty much limited to Windows, although you can use it with the default codeset in Linux.

I have been told (by Andy Warne) the I-PAC programming software is faster, but have not verified this.  I-PAC supports some macro assignments in programming, KeyWiz does not.   KeyWiz software uses a mouse/trackball, I-PAC requires a keyboard (although I think in NT,2K,XP, there is a "virtual keyboard" you can use.

I'm sure I left something out, since we're way off topic.

I did soften my Keywiz review a while back and removed the last sentence which did seem like a "cheap shot" upon review.

I missed that.  (Not the cheap shot, but that you removed it).  Good decision, IMHO.

[Chris]

Interesting new additions to the TOKN eBay listings:

On Jun-23-05 at 00:28:22 PDT, seller added the following information:

We're the first company to provide you with this ground breaking multi-processor technology. Multi-processor means less scanning overhead and greater throughput which is a must for large scale game panels with multiple players. The scanning tasks are coordinated with Tokn Media's Smart Arbiter (tm) technology to guarantee equal access from any coordinated bank. Be sure to pick one up and get your game project going! We're now doubling your ghost protect confidence with a free diode pack and protection sw. Check in at the website. We have you covered. Bundled shipping for the polite. Today's Fun Fact: arcadecontrols message board user registration dates RandyT Feb 6, 2002 6:35pm Tiger-Heli Feb 6, 2002 12:54pm Random coincidence?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jun-28-05 at 18:51:09 PDT, seller added the following information:

Pay no heed to this Tiger$Heli persona that is panicly obsessed with Tokn Media's line of encoders. He's been pushing KeyWiz products on arcadecontrols for years and pulled the exact same stunt with Ultimarcs I-PAC a few years ago.

[Tiger-Heli]

This gets better and better!!!!.

We're now doubling your ghost protect confidence with a free diode pack and protection sw. Check in at the website. We have you covered. Bundled shipping for the polite.

So he is now providing a free diode pack for his encoder that has no ghosting.  Nice gesture.

Today's Fun Fact: arcadecontrols message board user registration dates RandyT Feb 6, 2002 6:35pm Tiger-Heli Feb 6, 2002 12:54pm Random coincidence?

This one's good.  I've been on here since around 2000.  RandyT has probably been around a similar, but not equal amount of time.  Date new software was installed on BYOAC - um, I'm guessing Feb 6, 2002.  Message board registration dates for some 1,000 or so members - Feb 6, 2002, I'm guessing.  Random coincidence - hardly.  (I've been on the boards six hours longer than RandyT if it comes to bragging rights, though  )

Pay no heed to this Tiger$Heli persona that is panicly obsessed with Tokn Media's line of encoders. He's been pushing KeyWiz products on arcadecontrols for years and pulled the exact same stunt with Ultimarcs I-PAC a few years ago.

Clever using Tiger$Heli, so he can deny anything if he pushed it.  I didn't pull any stunts with anyone, nor am I panicly obsessed.  I reviewed it and tried to help some people out.  I have been recommended the KeyWiz b/c I think it's a great product.  I didn't do anything with the I-PAC except to point out the KeyWiz as an alternative when I thought it was appropriate.  The I-PAC at least works as advertised, and would be recommended over the KeyWiz if you really wanted USB or an active pass-thru, or EEPROM, or LED's.  Anyone can review my post history and verify any of this.

[KevSteele]

Heh...well, I can vouch that RandyT and TigerHeli aren't the same person (although both are very enthusiastic about the KeyWiz products!)

Love the fact that he's now adding diodes to double "your ghost protect confidence." I wonder what sort of software he's added to the mix, as well.

I just wish he'd been more open up front about the design and it's possible limitations, and also not kept insisting that there was no ghosting when there were three different people telling him they could easily reproduce it...

Kevin

[Tiger-Heli]

He made a typo, I've been on here since February 26 (just like Saint  ).  But no point expecting Mattp to let the facts interfere with a good conspiracy.

I just wish he'd been more open up front about the design and it's possible limitations, and also not kept insisting that there was no ghosting when there were three different people telling him they could easily reproduce it...

But if he did that, how could he get the newb's to pay $25 for them?   

[Chris]

What I don't understand is how diodes are supposed to allow simultaneous keypresses for keys that would ordinarily ghost or block?  Has anyone ever actually used diodes to get around ghosting and blocking successfully, or is it just theoretical?  Can you actually add diodes to a TOKN16 and get 16 simultaneous keypresses?

--Chris

[monkeybomb]

So he'll use your work and explanation on how to fix his product, but still be a jerk about it.  Why not just come out say thank you for the info and let everyone know that the product has a fix for the problems? He could easily get people on his side.

If tiger and Randy are the same, why on earth would Randy have explained to a competitor how to make his product better through the use of diodes.

[Tiger-Heli]

What I don't understand is how diodes are supposed to allow simultaneous keypresses for keys that would ordinarily ghost or block?

Read through this -
http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/

Has anyone ever actually used diodes to get around ghosting and blocking successfully, or is it just theoretical?

Yes, has been done.  Works on the LPT Switch, and on the ButtonBox (www.surf.to/buttonbox).  KeyDog has mentioned that they can be used.  Works on early (pre 1989) keyboard hacks that don't use blocking.

Can you actually add diodes to a TOKN16 and get 16 simultaneous keypresses?

Haven't tried it, but I'm tempted to.  Theoretically it should work with no problems, but you're still paying more for a 16-input encoder than RandyT charges for a 32-input.  You just don't have to worry about ghosting.

[Tiger-Heli]

So he'll use your work and explanation on how to fix his product, but still be a jerk about it.  Why not just come out say thank you for the info and let everyone know that the product has a fix for the problems? He could easily get people on his side.

Too much negative info in my review for a simple thank-you (and too much anti-me stuff that he's posted before for him to save face and admit I'm right).

If tiger and Randy are the same, why on earth would Randy have explained to a competitor how to make his product better through the use of diodes.

Building Good Will???

[KevSteele]

If tiger and Randy are the same, why on earth would Randy have explained to a competitor how to make his product better through the use of diodes.

Building Good Will???

AHA! You admit it! You're Randy!

 

[Tiger-Heli]

If tiger and Randy are the same, why on earth would Randy have explained to a competitor how to make his product better through the use of diodes.

Building Good Will???

AHA! You admit it! You're Randy!

 

The better question is probably how I manage to tighten up the level of witty comments and sarcasm when I post as Randy and tone it down when I post as Tiger.

Please no one (not the NBA guy) take this too seriously.

[narf]

i bought one of these today before reading this and see it mentions diodes installed now to prevent ghosting anyone tested the newer ones

got it for $6.13 to possibly use in a basic cab

[Tiger-Heli]

I haven't tested the newer ones, but I did see that it has diodes on the board now, which should take care of the ghosting isssues.  Probably okay for a basic cab (for that price).

[narf]

cheers i got a free cab that would suit one of these things today perfect

[rovingmind]

I've got one still in its mailer un-used.  Might have to try the diodes out and make a 4-way single stick cab with it later.

must maintain focus. Must NOT start another project now.